English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2017-05-09

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Jason Bourne

00:02

Ah, Cerberus has vanished. He must have been kidnapped.

I am going to sleep, see you in my dreams.

Tonepoet

@JasonBourne Maybe it'd be better to use your dreams to investigate what happened to Cerb! More seriously though g'night.

1 hour later…

Jason Bourne

01:13

@Tonepoet I am still awake.

Tonepoet

@JasonBourne Okay.

SmokeDetector

01:46

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Medical terminology and using certain word parts by Bill on english.SE

Tonepoet

02:40

Oh great, The Chicago Manual of Style, first edition, is available for download off of their website. I hadn't known this before now.

4 hours later…

Jason Bourne

06:42

@Tonepoet There are many books available for download on Russian servers.

SmokeDetector

07:15

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in answer: Does it make sense to apply the quality of "Identicality" to one or multiple objects? by user235191 on english.SE

Mohamed Ahmed

07:27

Good morning,
I'm developer,
I'm developing an application, it has a field dedicated for the person who received the order, what should I call that field, currently I named it `ReceiptPerson` in other application `ReceivedPerson`, I feel both are wrong!

2 hours later…

Jason Bourne

09:15

@MohamedAhmed You can just say 'Received By' and it will be understood.

@MohamedAhmed Yes, both sound bad to my ears.

Araucaria Man

09:50

@Cerberus Hmmm. What properties of nouns do gerunds have?

Mohamed Ahmed

@JasonBourne Yes it sounds better. but for curiosity, what is the correct word to join both words: receive and person>

RegDwigнt

10:21

user image

2 hours later…

Tonepoet

12:15

@AraucariaMan They can be used as the subject of a sentence. "Walking is my favorite form of exercise." Also, everybody in chat will probably hate this suggestion but the semantic purpose of a word is probably the most important aspect of categorizing it, despite however much syntacticists like yourself and @tchrist would love to abstract the categories from it entirely. Its a consideration that predates the earliest English grammars by well over a thousand years in the grammar of Greece and India.

It seems strongly suggestive to me that abstract nouns and their ilk are a figure of speech that consider non-things as if they are things.

user8469759

hi guys

If I were talking to you

but at some point (very short amount of time) I realize I made a mistake

would it be correct to say "I've made a mistake" or "I made mistake"

?

Like you could ask me

"Hey, what's the result of 2 + 2?"

And I reply with

5

and in the moment of speaking I realize I made an error

should I say right after it

"I made a mistake?"

or

"I've made a mistake"?

Araucaria Man

12:55

@Tonepoet Hmmm. But the whole point of having parts of speech and grammatical relations is so that we can distinguish between same parts of speech doing different grammatical jobs and also so we can distinguish between words or phrases from different categories which are able to do the same job. All kinds of words, phrases and clause can be Subjects. That don't mean that they be nouns though.

Mitch

13:18

@user8469759 both sound perfectly fine

there is the slightest of difference but hardly important here, the listener understands that a mistake was made in what you just said.

tchrist

@Tonepoet Would that be indoor walking or walking quickly?

The first is a noun, the second a verb.

Tonepoet

@AraucariaMan I think that is very useful, but to suggest that it is the whole point seems odd to me. Knowing which kind of words appear in relation to other words seems like a very useful art to me, especially if you want to establish a syntax.

tchrist

Both to-infinitive and -ing VPs can be uses as substantives.

user8469759

@Mitch can you point out the difference?

tchrist

That doesn't make them nouns.

user8469759

13:20

although it's not important... I'd like to understand it

tchrist

To hear someone out is the least you can do.

There are no nouns in that sentence.

Just noun wannabes. :)

Mitch

noun-like things

@user8469759 It's almost too subtle to make any practical difference. I'm sure grammars for English learners explain the difference, or at least explain the meaning of the two separately but then those can be compared...

tchrist

I'm thinking people are confusing subjects for nouns.

Mitch

but I'll give a layman's 'feeling' for what they mean

Araucaria Man

@Tonepoet Yes, exactly. So knowing that something is a subject gives us that information. Knowing that it's a verb gives us extra other information (that would be different if that word was a noun). So, for example, we know that we'd want to modify it with an adverb instead of an adjective, and that, if it's a transitive verb, we can stick a direct object on the end and so forth.

Mitch

13:28

'I made a mistake' - the event takes place in the past, before now and is finished (so it has two features: past tense, and completed aspect)

Tonepoet

@tchrist It seems very odd to me that you could apply either an adjective or an adverb to the same word in an otherwise identical sentence, but this is not a matter I should be arguing about with you tchrist, as I have not made any serious effort in studying syntax as of yet.

tchrist

Notice, though, that you can't add both at once.

Mitch

'I have made a mistake' - exactly the same features but 1) could be more abstract ('Of many things I have done in the past, one of those was a mistake') 2) a tiny bit more formal, and a little bit less common to use.

user8469759

@Mitch, so you would say that

Mitch

'made', the form, might be confusing things because it is the same in both cases.

Think of other example pairs

user8469759

13:31

"I made a mistake" would be more natural than "I've made a mistake"

Mitch

'I ate', 'I have eaten'

user8469759

?

Mitch

'I went', 'I have gone'

'I ran', 'I have run'

(it's good to use examples that cover not just implicitly single point activities like 'made', but also naturally continuous activities like 'run')

@user8469759 natural in the sense that I, as a native speaker (but only one), would be more likely to say it.

user8469759

I see

thank you

Mitch

I'm sure there are better ways to explain the difference (don't rely on my explanation as definitive). Check your grammar book to confirm or give a different view. General rules tend to have lots of exceptions depending on context.

user8469759

13:45

I'd like to find some of those exceptions

but nothing tells me anything about them

Tonepoet

@AraucariaMan So how do you relate the words to each-other, without knowing which types of words are which first?

Mitch

@user8469759 search on ELL

that's one link. also just search on google

Tonepoet

@tchrist And I don't know what to make of it yet.

Araucaria Man

14:18

@Tonepoet You mean how do you know it's a subject etc ...?

Tonepoet

@AraucariaMan Yes.

Cerberus

@AraucariaMan They can be the subject of a finite verb, as in running is fun? In general, they can take the place of any (singular, 3rd-person) noun group in a sentence without changing the rest of the syntax of that particular sentence.

A drop-in replacement, if you will.

> Development is fun.

> Developing things is fun.

There is more.

Araucaria Man

@Cerberus What you're describing there is a subject or the complement of a verb/preposition. But clauses do that, adjective phrases can do that, preposition phrases can do that just about any phrase can do that in English. That's trying to make a noun a grammatical relation, but a noun isn't a grammatical relation, it's a type of word! (And things you're listing are properties of noun phrases, not nouns)

Cerberus

@AraucariaMan Yes, some clauses can do that, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very nouny property!

And I think the kinds of grammatical relations a word can have are one criterion on which one should base how one categorises a word.

Araucaria Man

14:35

@Cerberus I'd agree that it's a property that all nouns can have (namely being the Head of a phrase that can do one of those jobs), but that doesn't quite equate to trying to reverse that generalisation so that we regard anything that does one of those jobs as a noun :)

Cerberus

It depends on how import a criterion we consider it to be in the "noun test".

And I think it should be very important.

But of course the criteria for any test are a choice.

And it should be added that the gerund is the head of its noun group.

So the word what is also nouny in what she likes is good food.

Araucaria Man

@Cerberus I'd agree that if something can't do that it isn't a noun, but I wouldn't agree that if it can it is. Something being warm blooded is a criterion for it being a mammal, but it doesn't follow that all warm-blooded animals are mammals (some are birds, for example).

Cerberus

I understand your point.

And it's not the only criterion.

But I do think it's an important one.

A gerund is also a verb.

Araucaria Man

@Cerberus Try taking your development noun and putting a direct object after it, or try pre-modifying it with an adverb ... You won't be able to, because these are not things that nouns do. They are verby things.

Cerberus

Indeed.

Tonepoet

14:39

@AraucariaMan I starred this statement because of the second sentence. XP

Cerberus

And a gerund is also a verb.

For that reason.

It has certain important noun-like qualities, and verb-like qualities.

user8469759

15:14

Hi guys again

If I'm working and a friend of mine is at home

I could possibly pick him up or I could come where I work

in a sentence like "Would you like me to pick you up or do you prefer to .... ?"

is "come over" the verb I'm looking for?

the thing is I have to drive him somewhere so his choice is or coming where I work or I can go where he lives

terdon

Oh damn. @Mitch turns out that awful literally is far older than I thought.

merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/misuse-of-literally

> F. Scott Fitzgerald did it (“He literally glowed”). So did James Joyce (“Lily, the caretaker’s daughter, was literally run off her feet”), W. M. Thackeray (“I literally blazed with wit”), Charlotte Brontë (“she took me to herself, and proceeded literally to suffocate me with her unrestrained spirits”) and others of their ilk.

tchrist

> Americans pronounce the 'r' in, say, 'torn', but it is a different kind of 'r' from the one in 'road'. But English people only know one 'r', which is the one in 'road', as we have no 'r' sound in 'torn'. So when we try to say 'torn' in an American accent, we just put in the 'r' we would use in 'road'.

That's an interesting take from a native Brit why non-rhotic speakers do such a poor job mimicking rhotic ones: because they use the wrong r.

> When I was in Canada, I would try to mimic a Canadian accent for fun sometimes, and I'd ask my friends if I sounded Canadian, and they always told me I was doing the 'r' wrong, and that I was overdoing it.

Cerberus

@user8469759 You could say, would you like me to pick you up, or do you prefer to come to my office/whatever?

user8469759

what could be the answer?

"I prefer to come over?"

"I prefer to come there"?

also was the use of "come over" wrong in that context?

Cerberus

"I'll come to you" or "I'll come to your office", something like that.

"Come over" could technically mean coming to any place, so it's not 100% clear, at least in theory.

I don't know why, but I wouldn't use it in your example.

Perhaps because the sentence is about a contrast: your house versus my office.

And I wouldn't use "come over" in a sentence like that.

tchrist

15:29

> These are all you need.
*Some really fancy these are all you need.

terdon

@tchrist Very. My accent is all over the place, but if I do pronounce the r in torn and road differently (kinda think I probly do) it's a tiny difference. I can feel my tongue moving slightly further back when saying torn and comes back towards my teeth to segue into road.

user8469759

@Cerberus what do you mean with "any place"?

Cerberus

I'm not sure, actually...

It's hard to explain.

tchrist

@terdon The one in road is wrounded for me.

terdon

Yes. The one in torn seems to be produced in my throat rather than my teeth.

Cerberus

15:31

Or perhaps it's that, normally, the person who will come is the one who will say "I'll come over", not the other person.

tchrist

You scrunch up your tongue in the back of your mouth for the one in torn.

Cerberus

I would add "come over to my office", perhaps, if I had to use "come over".

tchrist

And you don’t round your lips the way you do in road.

Cerberus

> ?Would you like me to pick you up or do you prefer to come over?

user8469759

(yes... sorry)

Cerberus

15:32

Perhaps Tchrist and Terdon have an opinion on this sentence?

terdon

@tchrist Aye

user8469759

Would you like me to pick you up or do you prefer to come over?

terdon

I love it when I realize this sort of thing that I've been doing all my life without ever consciously noting it.

Cerberus

I would really add "to my office" in that sentence.

tchrist

> Would you like me to pick you up or will you get here on your own?

Cerberus

15:33

But I have to go now.

user8469759

@tchrist nice

can "get" then used as "come" or "go" ?

tchrist

Not usually. Here it works.

user8469759

15:50

in terms of movement what does "get" means? and how does it differ from "come" and "go"?

Mitch

@terdon When I hear 'literally' used non-literally, it makes me think that the writer/speaker ... is uneducated.

or had a mini-stroke

but James Joyce? I feel like he must have been kidding.

@terdon but...

in a lot of people's defense...

sometimes a metaphor becomes weakened in metaphoricity, so to speak, to the point of a dead metaphor where the meaning of the word is not the historical one but the literal one.

so when you say 'literally run off her feet' you think maybe literally' is to take the constituent parts as primary, but for 'run off her feet' is only idiomatic, maybe all there is is that she was running a lot and that's exactly what the phrase means, and nothing more anyway

Nick Alexeev

I'm not a linguist, but I find myself doing an increasing amounts of technical and business writing. I've got this long standing question.
What is the difference between putting a clause in parentheses and putting a clause in hyphens?
Example for parentheses: "Helen have completed the sketch (which was requested by the firm's client) using open source software."
Example for hyphens: "Helen have completed the sketch - which was requested by the firm's client - using open source software."

Cerberus

16:12

11

Q: When to choose em dash over parenthesis for parenthetical phrases?

According to Wikipedia: The em dash, m dash, m-rule, or "mutton" (—) often demarcates a break of thought or some similar interpolation stronger than the interpolation demarcated by parentheses Okay, but what constitutes "stronger"? Does the length of the parenthetical phrase come into p...

punctuation parentheses dashes

An example of an answer.

22

Q: Parentheses vs. double commas vs. dashes to provide additional detail

When do you use commas and when do you use parentheses to provide more detail about something? For example: The suspect, Tom Wilson, is now being charged with murder. The suspect (Tom Wilson) is now being charged with murder. John Smith, a member of the jury, agreed with the verdict. John Smit...

punctuation commas parentheses dashes interrupting-phrase

I don't think there is a definitive answer.

Færd

17:11

What is it called idiomatically when someone wants to give you a gift or do you a favor etc and you reject their offer? Especially when they fill a bit rejected themselves?

In Farsi we say 'reject someone's hand', which, I suppose, can be understood in English, but is not commonly used.

SmokeDetector

18:07

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: Future perfect tense by example by jack watt on english.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, blacklisted user: Is there an idiom for "People very quickly get used to good things" by jack watt on english.SE

Davo

18:29

Seems like today is "do my homework for me" day. Or is that just every day?

Tonepoet

18:58

@terdon Wait a moment Terdon: Didn't you already know that? I mean, that is literally yesterday's news. I mean, I assumed you both saw this question yesterday, and that is why you two decided to discuss the word in the first place. 'Tis quite a coincidence if you didn't!

Jason Bourne

19:45

@MohamedAhmed Nothing I can think of.

Tonepoet

20:12

@Færd The first thing that comes to mind is something along the lines of refuse the gift.

Then again, perhaps that is too... I don't want to use the word literal given recent discussion. =P

Maybe I should've put that as "refuse [determiner] gift".

Cerberus

20:27

@Færd So you're looking for a special expression?

To turn someone down?

Or does it have to be more vivid/metaphorical?

Jason Bourne

21:07

Hi. This chat is boring, lol.

Mitch

@JasonBourne If you came more often it wouldn't be so boring

Hi. This cat is boring, lol.

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Kit doesn't seem to come to chat so often these days eh? I sent her some emails but she doesn't say much either. Hmm. But she certainly logs into the main site.

Mitch

@JasonBourne She is probably busy at work. I think she does a lot of modding and that's probably a lot of time already.

But yes, people come. then they go. I think she wasn't around for almost a year.

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Ah, I see. I would rather give up being a mod and chat more, but that is speaking for myself. =)

Mitch

yeah, modding seems like unrewarding work

Jason Bourne

21:18

I can't think of any reason to mod ELU now.

Mitch

flagging and editing and stuff are one thing

modding has to deal with people problems

Jason Bourne

You know, it's like sometimes you fall in love with someone, get married, and then one day, you have no idea why you even married that person

Mitch

holy crap that sounds bad

Jason Bourne

That's why the west has such a high divorce rate

Mitch

i got worried coming upon '...and then one day...'

@JasonBourne can you explain the radically dropping birth rate too?

Jason Bourne

21:20

I think the divorce rate in the east is much lower.

Mitch

I've heard India is realtively much lower.

I have no idea about China or Japan

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Well, people don't really want to stay committed to each other for long, so how can they even want kids?

Mitch

or southeast asia

@JasonBourne well, often kids is a catalyst

Jason Bourne

If I had a normal life (i.e. didn't go mad) I would have married and given birth to lots of kids by now.

Mitch

(I've heard max divorce rate happens when kids are 2 yrs old)

that sounds a bit made up.

But I'm saying truthfully what my poor memory and possible misleading headline may have said.

Jason Bourne

21:23

@Mitch Maybe people don't see relationships there as a long term thing. Problems come and they just abandon ship

Mitch

@JasonBourne I think movies and books put too many weird expectations on people.

Jason Bourne

@Mitch I am the complete opposite. I can remain in love with a person for ten years even if I just said one word to her.

Mitch

@JasonBourne there's little support structure outside of the common nuclear family to resolve conflicts

like other family

or cultural expectation.

Jason Bourne

@Mitch If you do some arithmetic you will see that as long as I said ten words, I can remain in love for a century.

Mitch

but then again, in defense of divorce, sometimes it is a better release than a terrible personality conflict.

I on't know, I'm just saying things that I guess is the case. Movies aren't particularly reliable reflections of reality

Jason Bourne

21:25

Unfortunately I am still mad, which is why I have not found a Maria. But I hope to be well soon and find Maria.

Mitch

@JasonBourne that's a different problem!

@JasonBourne that's math!

what if you mumble or mispronounce the words?

That might cause difficulties

Jason Bourne

@Mitch That is English!

I would like to share a secret with you...

Mitch

keep it as quiet as you can. people might overhear

hopefully my undercover position won't be compromised by this new information

Jason Bourne

The hope to find a Maria is the greatest force that keeps me alive now.

That is all.

Mitch

Oh

Ya know, that drives a lot of people.

Probably not your same Maria.

maybe Janet

or Mark

Jason Bourne

21:29

Well, Maria is a generic term, so it is still Maria.

Of course, if it is a man, I change it to Mario.

Mitch

as long s your quantifiers don't bind that variable to someone else's name for the same object.

haha math nerd humor

Jason Bourne

Free variables

Mitch

And if that man is evil it is Wario

Jason Bourne

I am thinking, what if the Maria I find is really called Maria?

Mitch

That might be weird

Johnny Carson was married 4 times.

each wife was named Joanna

I mean they were given that name when they were born

Jason Bourne

21:32

In fact, I can't remember why I chose Maria instead of other names in the first place.

Mitch

not that Johnny Carson named them that at marriage.

That would be really weird.

@JasonBourne Sound of Music?

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Maybe West Side Story

Mitch

oh right. yeah that one

Natalie Cole

or is it Portman?

Argh... Natalie Wood

Jason Bourne

But my favourite girl name is still Rachel, or maybe Sarah.

Mitch

Those are probably not common in Antarctica

They sound like classmates of mine in elementary school.

Jason Bourne

21:34

I intend to move to Arctica soon.

Things in Antarctica are getting from bad to worse.

Mitch

Susan Sarah every variety of Katy/Cathy/Katherine

Arctica isn't all it's cracked up to be

the icecap is melting and there's nothing underneath

Jason Bourne

The weird thing is, I once did fall in love with a Rachel and a Sarah.

Mitch

at the same time?

Jason Bourne

But never with a Maria.

Mitch

how did you keep the other from finding out?

Jason Bourne

21:36

Different times. One was from Arctica, the other was from Arcticaca.

Mitch

oh nice. never would meet that way

Jason Bourne

Arcticaca is the country to the north of Arctica.

Mitch

that's really far north

sounds like where they put all the crap they don't want in Arctica

Jason Bourne

Maybe this is a sign that the real Maria would really be named Maria.

But yes, things in Arctica aren't that good now, so maybe Arcticaca is better.

I actually have classmates living in Arctica, Arcticaca, Arcticacaca, and Arcticacacaca now.

Mitch

Huh.

That's a lot of places to be living in

Jason Bourne

21:40

I mean they are different people, of course.

Mitch

All this news stuff about elections is very depressing. Even though the French did not vote for Le Pen, the fact that she got as far as she did makes me realize that there are a lot of jerks there, just like the US and UK. Germany isn't so great either, and the Spanish and Italians, well, let's just add the scandinavians in there to because even though the govts are forward thinking, lots of individuals there are jerks too.

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Jerks are everywhere, but the difference is the percentage. Like the percentage in Antarctica is really high.

Mitch

I wouldn't mind living in any of those countries, and probably could pass for local if I didn't say anything

Jason Bourne

The moment you open your mouth to pronounce the R in those places they catch you.

Mitch

The R's will tell

Jason Bourne

21:45

Yes, which is why I spent a long time perfecting my German, French, Italian, and Spanish R.

Mitch

also the number of times you kiss each other

there's a map of France that separates into 2,3,4 kisses on greeting.

too much.

Jason Bourne

There is a map that separates the different R's in Europe...

Mitch

@JasonBourne link?

the map for just England is probably complicated enough

Jason Bourne

@Mitch I don't know, 9000 years ago I saw, maybe Wikipedia.

Mitch

Pronunciation of English /r/

Pronunciation of the phoneme /r/ in the English language has many variations in different dialects. == Variations == Depending on dialect, /r/ has at least the following allophones in varieties of English around the world: postalveolar approximant [ɹ̠] (the most common realization of the /r/ phoneme, occurring in most dialects, Received Pronunciation and General American included) retroflex approximant [ɻ] (occurs in most Irish dialects and some American dialects) labiodental approximant [ʋ] (occurs in south-east England and some London accents; see § R-labialization below) alveolar flap ...

there's no map

am sad

Jason Bourne

21:49

@Mitch That is how they catch you with the R.

Mitch

user image

oh that's unfair. the legend didn't come with it

Final post-vocalic /r/ in farmer in English rural dialects of the 1950s[14]
GREEN – [ə] (non-rhotic)
YELLOW – [əʴ] (alveolar)
ORANGE – [əʵ] (retroflex)
PINK – [əʵː] (retroflex & long)
BLUE – [əʶ] (uvular)
VIOLET – [ɔʶ] (back & rounded)

but that's still not Europe

Jason Bourne

LOL

@Mitch I just realised that Rachel Sarah and Maria all contain R

Mitch

also 'a'

two 'a's if you spell Rachael like that

Jason Bourne

In fact, my name also contains R, very interesting...

Mitch

and an a

which reminds me of a word game, which is to find a word such that if you remove a letter anywhere in the word it creates a new word that you can continue with all the way down

Jason Bourne

21:55

I am quite happy with my SOED.

At least it gives the pronunciation of every headword, unlike the stupid ODE or COED.

Mitch

That's not an answer to my puzzle

you gave up too quickly

here's a hint

start backwards

start with 'i'

Jason Bourne

It is too hard for me. I am stupid

Mitch

pfft all these questions are impossible until you see the answer. That's how I did it. Looked in the back of the book

or google

whatever

startling
starting
staring
string
sting
sing
sin
in
i

I bet there are others

Jason Bourne

@Mitch You mean somewhere, not anywhere which is why I couldn't do it, LOL

@Mitch Good night. Happy Vesak Day. May you attain Nibbana soon.

Mitch

22:38

@JasonBourne May you not care whether you attain Nirvana or not.

Ha! I don't care!

Which means I just attained nirvana!

Ha! and Ha!

wait...

if I'm so happy about having attained Nirvana, then that means...

that means I really do care.

and so I haven't reached no-caring

and so haven't attained Nirvana

damn it

anger is not true zen nature

I don't care anymore it's just a load of horseshit.

looks around to see if Nirvana is listening

it's really neither one way or the other.

doesn't matter at all

Nirvana?

are you there?

It's me, Margaret

@JasonBourne Happy Vesak Day. Does anything happen? any good food?

Mitch

22:59

all I could find was rice pudding. not a bad thing

leo

23:35

Hello

Aside of that or aside from that? Or both?

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May '179

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