English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

01:08

@tchrist I just thought that take was funny, that's all. I accept that there are different noun classes and all that, but I hope you'll in turn accept that linguistic artifacts in one language may be frustrating for non-native speakers, and that the frustration may be a source of amusement.

I do think the "excessive" degree is quite interesting.

I also find interesting in ASL the notion of spatial buffers for storing ideas. Kosmonaut mentioned that some years ago.

Actually, I do find other languages interesting. Noun genders do annoy me somewhat, but more so in German than in Spanish. Spanish, for the most part, is grammatically and orthographically relatively sane.

When I first started learning German I was in high school, and I "streamlined" my learning by stripping off the gender from nouns when I was committing them to memory. That caused me no end of trouble later on, I can tell you. Now that I'm learning Spanish I make a point to learn the noun gender as a part of it.

tchrist

01:24

Yeah, you really have to know a noun's gender to use it meaningfully.

Cerberus

@Robusto I still do the same thing.

I wouldn't know how to successfully memorise genders in an active way; they just come to me as I read more.

Latin is such a blessing.

I will know the gender 99% of the time.

Even for new words.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, that may not help for modern romance languages.

Cerberus

It does help, a great deal.

Robusto

"The sea" is feminine in French and masculine in Spanish. Go figure.

Cerberus

It is neuter in Latin.

Robusto

01:27

Hahaha, that may be why.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Robusto

Neuter had to go either way, so it was a coin toss.

Cerberus

Neuter usually became masculine, but not always.

Because neuter endings were often similar to masculine endings.

Greek is more difficult for me.

Latin has easy rules of thumb that work in the large majority of cases.

German is indeed very difficult with genders.

They're even very often different from Dutch genders.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yeah, if you get away from the -chen or -lein or -ung endings, it's anybody's guess.

Cerberus

Yeah.

I remember a booklet of 10 pages or so with rules for German genders.

In school.

Robusto

01:31

It took me a long time to get used to Schloss being neuter. I mean, it's a frickin' castle, fer Pete's sake.

@Cerberus Wow.

The one year I studied Russian I liked that there were a few things that made Russian genders easier to remember.

Cerberus

Bodies of water, say, are always neuter, except rivers, which are masuline, except European rivers, which are feminine, except if they discharge into the North Sea...

We really had a rule somewhat like that.

Robusto

@Cerberus Wow. Like that would help you in a casual conversation.

"Just a sec, I need to remember my rule for river gender ..."

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, I would have to look that one up, even though in this case it happens to match the Dutch gender (het slot).

@Robusto "Could you please hand me that atlas before we continue?"

Robusto

Yeah.

When I was working in Germany a lot of things clicked, gender-wise, because I would remember real people saying real things, and I could recall those nouns with a face and voice attached.

Cerberus

That helps!

Poetry or any text that you know well also helps.

You can "look it up" in your mind.

Robusto

01:35

Yep.

Much faster than any dictionary.

Cerberus

If you can remember that the word was used in the poem somewhere, you'll usually be able to remember enough of the line.

I memorise lines from the Odyssey when I'm trying to sleep.

Robusto

That would put me to sleep as well.

Cerberus

It works very well.

For me.

Robusto

But I can still remember asking where something was and being told Es ist da drüben neben dem Tisch.

Cerberus

Trying to remember things in a sequence.

Good.

Robusto

01:38

That's how the Greek singers remembered the Iliad, of course.

Cerberus

Exactly.

Robusto

Know what else can help?

Cerberus

Drink?

Robusto

When I was in college I got the part of Prospero in The Tempest. There were thousands of lines I had to memorize, and I did it first by rote, but when we were off book and started getting into blocking I began to associate the lines with movements and locations, and it got much easier.

For example, when Miranda, my daughter in the play, is upset by the shipwreck of travelers to my island, we were looking out a "window" and as I said the following lines I took her by the shoulder and led her away from the "sight":

I have done nothing but in care of thee,
Of thee, my dear one, thee, my daughter, who
Art ignorant of what thou art, nought knowing
Of whence I am, nor that I am more better
Than Prospero, master of a full poor cell,
And thy no greater father.

The hand on the shoulder came at "my daughter" and at "what thou art" I was turning her.

By the time I got to "master of a full poor cell" I dropped the hand from her shoulder and gestured at the room, with a wistful look of reduced circumstances.

It was more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

Mitch

@Cerberus and food

Cerberus

01:46

@Robusto I imagine that will help a lot, if you can connect physical things to words.

Robusto

It does.

Cerberus

Alas, this technique has never really helped me.

I've tried, but I cannot maintain the conexion, unless there is a logic behind it.

I tried to memorise the Roman emperors by connecting each one to a tram stop on a certain line.

But it just didn't help at all.

Even though I can visualise the route and know the stops well.

Let's see, Dam Square, was that Tiberius? Or maybe Caligula?

Robusto

@Cerberus Mark Twain got his daughters to remember the English kings and their reigns by posting their names along his driveway, at intervals commensurate with the length of their reigns.

@Cerberus I remembered the first twelve from reading Suetonius.

Cerberus

@Robusto Nice.

Robusto

Actually, Julius wasn't an emperor, but he was a Caesar.

Cerberus

01:50

Excellent.

Indeed, I think Caesar was the 0th stop of the line.

At least that conexion made logical sense...

Robusto

Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius (Caligula), Claudius, Nero, Otho, Galba, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian.

I think that's in the right order.

I might have messed up the "year with four emperors" ...

Cerberus

All correct, I think! That is, I'm not entirely sure about 3 of the emperors of 68...

Jinx.

But I remember "Caligula, Claudius, Nero" phonetically.

Like part of a verse.

Although I do know Nero was the last of them.

Because that makes sense.

Robusto

Yeah, I break them down in threes, like lines in a verse.

Cerberus

Ah, so you, too, remember the emperors at least partly phonetically?

Robusto

Somewhat.

But I know a lot about the first three, and the next three as well. There's not a lot to know about the next three, but Vespasian was an interesting character, and by the time you get to him, it remains but for Titus and Domitian to put a period on the list.

I read that work more than forty years ago, and I can still practically see the text on the pages.

BTW, do you agree that (as Kitto says) Greek is a very logical language, with helpful signposts that let you anticipate how a sentence will end from how it begins and what "helper" words are used?

Cerberus

01:57

Hmm I know stuff about all of the emperors of the first century, but for some not enough to put them before or after x.

@Robusto Mm it is true that Greek has more helper words.

Robusto

Well, we remember Augustus comes after Julius for obvious reasons.

Cerberus

It has articles, and more particles than Latin.

Robusto

Ah.

Cerberus

It's less compact.

I would have trouble dating Caligula.

Robusto

I think you would have had trouble being within ten miles of that man.

Cerberus

02:00

I know he was crazy, a favourite of soldiers in his youth, and he appointed his horse as a high official. But I remember little that connects him to a date or to another emperor, except by elimination, or by 'verse'.

@Robusto I'm sure it might have been enjoyable while his favour lasted...

Robusto

@Cerberus Apparently he used to slink around in temples behind the statues of the gods while citizens were worshiping, then show himself and confound them. If they didn't go on worshiping, I guess there was hell to pay.

A Donald Trump sort of character, in a way.

Cerberus

See, he could be fun.

Robusto

haha, surely you jest!

Cerberus

That does sound like a fun prank.

Incidentally, do you know Steven Saylor?

Robusto

Tiberius was only slightly less crazy and awful than Caligula.

@Cerberus I only know he's an author. Is he good?

Cerberus

02:05

Roma Sub Rosa

Roma Sub Rosa is the title of the series of historical mystery novels by Steven Saylor set in ancient Rome and populated by noteworthy denizens thereof. The series is noted for its historical authenticity. The phrase "Roma Sub Rosa" means, in Latin, "Rome under the rose". If a matter was sub rosa, "under the rose", it meant that such matter was confidential. The detective is known as Gordianus the Finder, and he mixes with non-fictional citizens of the Republic including Sulla, Cicero, Marcus Crassus, Catilina, Catullus, Pompey, Julius Caesar, and Mark Antony. == Characters == For an ancient Roman...

I like him, mostly.

@Robusto True.

Robusto

Oooh, historical novels. My favorite genre.

Apparently Tiberius was a pedophile on top of everything else.

Cerberus

I have found very, very little to challenge his historical accuracy.

Robusto

Does he weave a good story out of the fabric of historical faithfulness?

Cerberus

@Robusto Oh, but that was fairly normal at the time, unless you mean truly prepubescent?

Robusto

My favorite historical novelist is, of course, Mary Renault.

Cerberus

02:07

@Robusto I would say yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know the actual details. I merely read that as an old man he debauched young girls and boys alike.

Cerberus

I actually remember some things from Roman history through his novels.

Robusto

So much the better. Oftentimes a good story, faithfully represented, will illuminate dry history.

Cerberus

@Robusto Didn't they all?

It's so very 19th-century to make an issue out of that...

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know. Given their other excesses, probably.

Cerberus

02:08

@Robusto Absolutely.

Do you know I, Claudius?

Robusto

Of course.

Cerberus

Good.

Robusto

And Claudius the God as its sequel.

Cerberus

We used to watch that in school when ours Latin/Greek teachers were lazy.

Robusto

I tried to read Graves's Byzantine novel (Basileus?) but it didn't have the same lure.

@Cerberus Wow, that's pretty effing lazy ...

Cerberus

02:10

I don't think I know it.

@Robusto Yeah, well, it like before the holidays and such.

Not that often.

Robusto

Ah, Count Belisarius ...

Cerberus

That sounds familiar.

Though I haven't read it.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yeah, but he should have had you reading the novel instead of watching the more or less sensationalistic TV version.

Did you ever read any of Mary Renault?

Cerberus

Saylor makes sure he knows all about a certain historical situation, then fills in whatever we don't know, in such a way as to make it a suspenseful detective story.

@Robusto Mmm perhaps, perhaps.

Robusto

I think you might like The Mask of Apollo and The Last of the Wine quite a bit.

And The Persian Boy as well.

Cerberus

02:12

The Mask of Apollo sounds very familiar.

But I don't think I've read it.

Robusto

The Praise Singer is also quite good.

Cerberus

I shall put her on my list!

Robusto

And then there is the story of Theseus: The King Must Die and The Bull from the Sea ...

@Cerberus You really should. I think you will be delighted.

Cerberus

Quite possibly!

Robusto

Just FYI, she was gay as well. She wrote a contemporary novel called The Charioteer about a gay man who was injured in the war, finding love in London.

Cerberus

02:15

Imagine how it must have been to live in Europe 3000 years ago.

With hardly any literature to feast upon.

Robusto

@Cerberus She really brings it to live like no one else.

Cerberus

@Robusto Hawt.

Robusto

From the Wikipedia article: "The powerful impact Renault's work may have had on many readers, especially emerging young gay men, is suggested in a moving personal memoir by author and critic Daniel Mendelsohn."

Cerberus

(Or in any place before the age of aequality, without any books you could borrow.)

@Robusto That's nice.

Robusto

The Praise Singer personifies Simonides, and the discussion of reciting epic poetry, and remembering lines, etc., is fascinating.

Cerberus

02:18

Ah, the lyrical poet?

Robusto

Yep.

The one who famously said "Tell them in Lakedaemon, passerby, that here, obedient to their will, we lie."

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

Good times.

Robusto

He had some of the best epitaphs ever.

But the funny thing is, when I read her works in my twenties, I thought for sure she must be a gay man, because of the way she talked about (male) sex and attitudes.

But it turns out she was not.

Cerberus

So she was just empathic.

Robusto

Just a very, very good novelist.

She's best when writing in the first person, but her third-person narratives are still excellent.

Cerberus

02:21

Empathy can be a highly valuable skill for a novellist.

Robusto

Valuable? I would call it essential.

Cerberus

I'm sure there are genres where it matters somewhat less.

Like a more epic kind of novel.

Heroes are simple of heart.

Robusto

Read a few paragraphs of the beginning of this. It puts you right there in Bronze Age Greece:

amazon.com/King-Must-Die-Novel-ebook/dp/B00DCGJ6UO/…

Cerberus

Ah, she read English under Tolkien.

That helps.

Robusto

Surely.

That's the opening of The Mask of Apollo.

She really plunges you right into another era.

Cerberus

02:29

I read the beginning of the Horse King.

I like it.

I'm sure you won't find Saylor's style as good.

Robusto

Nice.

Cerberus

His is the opposite of epic, as well.

Robusto

@Cerberus I haven't found any other historical novelist's style as good.

Cerberus

Lots of filth and nasty violence.

Good.

Robusto

She has some kind of direct line to whatever era she illuminates.

Cerberus

02:34

Perhaps the gods control her, a puppet of Zeus.

Robusto

If that were possible, it would be true of her.

"Sing in me, Muse" ... and the Muse truly sang in her.

Cerberus

She could be inspired by Calliope or Clio, like the Pythia by Apollo.

Robusto

Well, I'm off. Good luck and good reading.

Cerberus

Gute Nacht!

Robusto

Und dir.

Tonepoet

04:19

Christopher Lee on Charlemagne

►

M.A.R.

10:58

New hobby: Using the world "literally" literally everywhere

Mitch

12:58

@M.A.R. actually, you could actually use actually in a lot more places, actually.

M.A.R.

14:59

@Mitch Actually, you're literally right

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

15:16

@Robusto Oh yeah. And I think he has some other show (or participates in a show) where voice actors do something or other and it's funny. Haven't checked it out yet.

M.A.R.

BTW @cornbreadninja the info in your profile's about me is obsolete

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@M.A.R. checks

Woops!

I've fixed it.

Robusto

15:32

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 But he wasn't part of Dr. Horrible. That was Joss Wheedon, as I was reminded later. Brain cramp, what can I say?

I have brain cramps sometimes. Yesterday it rained during a club ride, and when I got back to my car I was in such a hurry to get back home to get dry and warm that I drove off without my bike! Fortunately friends were still in the lot and one of them called me on my cell to ask if he could keep my bike if I didn't want it anymore.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto Oh dear.

Robusto

16:10

Meh. Shit happens.

Robusto ... now with OVER 20 MILLION VIEWS!

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally literally.

Oh shoot, I put a period at the end of the sentence. I suppose then, that I only used it figuratively everywhere.

Robusto

5

A: What does "literally" mean?

This is a good question, because it points up an actual problem. While literally literally means In a literal or strict sense many people use literally figuratively, as an intensifier. The American Heritage Dictionary provides this usage note: For more than a hundred years, critics h...

Tonepoet

@Robusto Yeah, you're quite right about that actually. It's not just really though. Did you know very is also used the same way?

Robusto

You mean used the same way?

Tonepoet

@Robusto More or less, yes.

Robusto

16:17

So ... it is literally used the same way?

Tonepoet

@Robusto Yes, yes.

Robusto

                     Very like. One of them
Is a plain fish, and no doubt marketable.

Tonepoet

@Robusto The definite article was supposed to be restrictive there. =P

Robusto

Can't help remembering lines from The Tempest.

Tonepoet

Isn't Actually also used as an intensifier?

Robusto

16:22

It can be.

Tonepoet

It seems like something that's inherent to all of the words that denote reality then.

Robusto

"We were actually starving to death!" (Meaning we were kind of hungry.)

That's the trouble with intensifiers.

That chorus of birdsong you hear before a summer's dawn? Nothing but birds bleating out intensifiers.

Hmm ... do birds bleat? Maybe not, but for the sake of alliteration they certainly do.

Does a crow crow? A crow caws 'cause crows crow.

So what are you crowing about now?

Tonepoet

16:46

@Robusto Not all of the intensifiers are like that, but I can't think of a word that is literally only used to intensify, including intense.

Literal is also a little more problematic because its meaning is less along the lines "real like" and more "not metaphoric".

Færd

18:32

@Mitch To take up that one from scratch, you don't really mean each and every fact, do you?

englishstudent

18:46

@Tonepoet Can you interpret that sentence for me? Can't understand it. But don't put too much effort into explaining it. I know it is a garden path or nonsense perhaps = )

@Tonepoet How is your weekend?

Tonepoet

@englishstudent It's a reply. Maybe you'll better understand it if you see the context. ;-)

@englishstudent Mostly fine I suppose.

englishstudent

I did see the context. To me it sounded like that "Buffalo" sentence that people talk about. This one: The buffalo from Buffalo who are buffaloed by buffalo from Buffalo, buffalo (verb) other buffalo from Buffalo.

Tonepoet

20:37

@englishstudent I'm not that clever. I just wanted to illustrate how silly using a word literally everywhere would be. =P

tchrist

23:09

It's winter here again. It's snowed all night and all day. Watching hummingbirds at my feeder in the snow is really weird. Incredible that they can survive, even if it requires drinking pretty much constantly.

terdon

It's a balmy 66°F (18°C) and 2:18 AM here.

It's like we're on different continents, or something.

tchrist

@terdon That's so yesterday.

terdon

23:28

Woah. That's some drop!

It's them Chinese trying to flog their "climate change" hoax.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…