English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

David Wallace

00:00

But it would still be lacking something that "serendipity" has. I must ask a Bosnian whether she would understand this word.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Good luck. Seriously. You'll need it.

Interestingly, there seems to be no Bosnian LU proposal.

But anyhoo, what am I still doing here.

David Wallace

Thank God for that.

They'd spend all their time arguing about whether it's the same language as Serbian and/or Croatian.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No need to argue, just check who's got a navy and who hasn't.

There are Wikipedias in like fourteen varieties of German.

David Wallace

Yeah, so true. Interestingly, Bosnia has three official languages - Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian. My friend's sister has a job translating from one to another.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

17

A: Why did only English undergo the Great Vowel Shift, making pronunciation stray so far from spelling?

I started off by posting a series of comments scattered all over the page, but I thought I should sum them up in a standalone answer. Generally speaking, there have been similar shifts in many other languages. And they are even happening right now as we speak. But first things first. Since yo...

David Wallace

00:03

At least when Jugoslavija was one country, it had just one official language for these three (plus two others which really are different).

@RegDwightѬſ道 And E has obviously drifted towards O in lots of the East Slavic languages.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Actually I didn't mean to link to that answer. Somewhere on this site I compiled a list of all the German Wikipedias, but this isn't it.

Also, it's so blatantly off-topic in hindsight.

David Wallace

A former colleague of mine couldn't understand why his Ukrainian girlfriend pronounced her name Alona but spelt it Alena.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well then he should go with Belorussian.

It's like Russian but with kindergarten spelling.

David Wallace

Any particular Belorussian? Or do you mean something other than fuck, when you say "go with"?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Heh. Well it's up to him how far he's gonna take it.

But in any case he won't have to wonder about spelling no more.

David Wallace

00:08

By kindergarten, do you mean highly phonetic? They do still use the Cyrillic alphabet don't they?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah. But they actually write малако instead of молоко, say.

Cuz its isia 4 tehm liek taht.

David Wallace

A cays of siksesfil speling reform then?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Very much so.

David Wallace

Forgive my NZ accent creeping through in that last remark.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

In fact there only used to be exceptions for Communist words.

David Wallace

00:11

Like spelling He with a capital if you mean God.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

They decided to spell everything phonetically, but Communism and Revolution and Proletariat absolutely had to remain recognizable as such to every Comrade abroad.

David Wallace

That's absolutely gorgeous.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Not sure how much of that nonsense is still in effect, but then again those words are not really en vogue anyway.

David Wallace

I often wondered why the country was spelt Belarus, but the adjective was usually spelt Byelorussian.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The Russian spelling would be Byelorus for the country as well.

Haha.

David Wallace

00:16

Sorry, I can't count.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I studied maths.

David Wallace

I thought that was two characters, not one. My humblest.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Which is to say, I can't count either.

David Wallace

So how did you transform from studying maths to being a translator?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I never quite transformed to being a translator.

I don't work in the profession.

Though I will sometimes waste ginormous amounts of time on translating a single line of some poem.

Just because, you know, why the heck not.

David Wallace

00:19

"Speaking as a translator, I can share a few rules of thumb that are popular in our profession" - so this was a lie then?

And I wonder whether Benjol went and googled Phantasese!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well I didn't say professional translator.

Just because you are sitting on a couch, doesn't mean you can't be a driver.

David Wallace

Umm, it kind of does!

"our profession" even, gee Reg!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well I'm not going back and editing it two years later.

That post got analyzed to death on our Meta.

You are too late to the party.

David Wallace

Does the fact that I translated Peter Rabbit into Bosnian for my son before he could speak English make me just as much a translator as you?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hey, you invited me to it when you posted the link here!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wait when did I post a link to that?

Certainly not in the last six months.

Awww and now I see waiwai deleted his analysis of my ananasness. A pity.

Then again I never really read it.

It felt like watching oneself strip or something.

David Wallace

00:25

Whoops, my apologies. I confused it with the "great vowel shift" link that you posted.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah that one wasn't even meant to be posted. I think what I was looking for is buried in a comment thread somewhere.

David Wallace

Ananasness? I prefer pineapplehood.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's too transparent.

David Wallace

I think it's less transparent, because it's one more step removed from "non native speaker".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hm. You're right.

See, I shouldn't be up anymore.

David Wallace

00:28

If you wanted to be really opaque, you could say Kieferapfelseit.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Little Red Riding Pineapplehood.

David Wallace

In Bosnian, she's called Crvenkapica.

Which loses the bit about riding.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Apr 21 '11 at 23:51, by RegDwight

Авпваойцехрварждоы.

David Wallace

Or I guess, since you introduced the pineapple, Crvenananaskapica.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Krasnanasnaya Shapochka.

See, you still use that Old Church Slavonic crven.

David Wallace

00:31

So, something like beautiful pineapple hat?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The Russians have long since moved on.

@DavidWallace Aye.

Except that it's red.

Not beautiful.

David Wallace

How is it red? I missed that bit.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

There's so much confusion about that.

@DavidWallace because you are still speaking Old Church Slavonic. You should totally drop that and use jQuery.

9

Q: What is the first recorded appearance of the mistranslation "Red Square"?

Does anybody know when the mistranslation "Red Square" made its first recorded appearance? Have there been any noteworthy attempts at establishing the correct translation "Beautiful Square" at some point in history? Obviously, it's too late to change the name now, but I am interested in learning ...

David Wallace

Well that's confusing! In Bosnian, krasni is beautiful.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So it was in Russian when the square was named.

Read my comments on nohat's answer.

David Wallace

00:35

My son used to confuse crni (black) with crveni (red), which made teaching colours hard. He pronounced both of them crnavi when he was a toddler.

Matt Эллен

did not die cycling hmoe. +1 to survival skills

tonight I learned that today is an adverb

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Oh and BTW of course Russian has chervony as well.

Meaning red.

David Wallace

@MattЭллен What did you think it was?

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace a noun

David Wallace

I used to be boggled by hair. Bosnian uses the same word for "blue" and for "blonde".

I used to ask my wife what you should say if someone has blue hair, which she never answered satisfactorily.

Then I realised that English does the same thing with "red".

That is, when we say someone has red hair, it's not actually red.

Matt Эллен

00:38

red hair is red

David Wallace

So now I'm more at peace with the Bosnian "blue hair" meaning blonde.

Matt Эллен

ginger hair is ginger

when is red hair not red?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

This red hair is not red.

Matt Эллен

ginger

David Wallace

Well, I don't think you'd use the word "red" to describe something the colour of red hair that isn't actually hair.

Matt Эллен

00:39

well, some people don't like being called ginger, they prefer red

they're just in denial

David Wallace

In any case, I'm no longer baffled by "plava kosa".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен You do realize that that word is only a couple centuries old and got borrowed from the French?

David Wallace

I thought its etymology was Persian?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Unlike red, which is what your people used to call that hair thousands of years ago.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 c'est la vie

RegDwight Ѭſ道

00:41

@DavidWallace it's certainly related to the German ingwer and possibly to the Russian imbir as well.

David Wallace

Wow, Tamil! I couldn't have been more wrong.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well nothing beats that aubergine-baklazhan-brinjal chaos.

David Wallace

@RegDwightѬſ道 I say that to myself every day.

Reg - is it the same in Russian? Do you say "blue hair" to mean blond?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That poor word's own mother wouldn't recognize it now.

Matt Эллен

well. maybe hair is a weird one anyway. white horses are grey

RegDwight Ѭſ道

00:43

@DavidWallace Nope. We say blond.

Блондин, блондинка.

KitFox

Hola.

Matt Эллен

hello

David Wallace

Actually блонд or some other word?

Sorry, you answered while I was typing the question.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nah, hold on.

That's what you'd call the person.

David Wallace

Hello KitFox.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

00:44

The hair itself, you wouldn't really call блондинистые, though that word does exist. You'd rather say светлые, bright.

KitFox

In Chinese, they call it white hair.

Vitaly

Белокурая бестия же.

David Wallace

But hair can be bright and non-blond.

KitFox

Hi @Vitaly.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well in Chinese terms it is white.

@Vitaly Yeah or that.

KitFox

00:46

Yeah. It's surprising how brown "white" hair can be.

David Wallace

Yes, but that applies equally to white skin.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Everything is relative.

KitFox

Do you prefer blondes, @Vit?

David Wallace

Also, I don't know a Bosnian word for a male blond. We have plavuša for a female blonde, and plava for the colour (meaning blue as discussed), but I don't think there's a single word for blond man.

Vitaly

@KitFox … Over what?

KitFox

00:47

Man-whore doesn't count as a single word?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly Over four non-blondes, duh.

Matt Эллен

i ain't no manwhore

David Wallace

LOL!

KitFox

How are you feeling today, @Vitaly?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен Thank you for the information.

David Wallace

00:48

@Vitaly did my comment about Terry make sense?

Vitaly

Much better today, @Kit

Matt Эллен

I felt it needed to be pointed out that not all blonds are man whores

KitFox

Thank you, @Vitaly. I'm glad that you understand me so well.

Matt Эллен

being that i'm blond

David Wallace

Also, I find "brunet" (the male form) rare in English.

Vitaly

00:49

@DavidWallace Yeah, I guess. Still, you get the Fields Medal for something you create, which is more impressive than being able to solve artificial puzzles, in my book.

David Wallace

Good answer!

I wonder whether Africans or Southern Asians use "white" like Chinese.

KitFox

Oh noes!!1! Cat iz in my lap purrin. Iz makin me sleepy. Mus resizt cat purrin...

Matt Эллен

prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

David Wallace

Would you like me to chase it away?

KitFox

visible z!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

00:52

Speaking of sleeping, now that this place is on fire I'll steal myself away. Those Seinfelds aren't going to watch themselves, much as they'd like to.

David Wallace

Good night Reg.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

18

Q: How did the letter Z become to be associated with sleeping/snoring?

In cartoons and comics it's not uncommon to see a series of Zs to indicate that a person is in deep slumber, such as in the following political cartoon. How and when did the letter Z become to be associated with sleeping?

etymology onomatopoeia

Over and out!

Matt Эллен

cya reg

David Wallace

The sheet music joke is terrible.

Vitaly

Night Reg

Matt Эллен

00:55

all jokes are terrible the way I tell them

David Wallace

Blond beast? Seriously Vitaly?

KitFox

all ways are terrible the tell I joke them.

Vitaly

@DavidWallace die blonde Bestie, yes. The word белокурый (and белобрысый) is not widely used, though, but it came from something like as though covered by white dust (белый white + курить smoke), cf Polish kurz

Matt Эллен

yes. I suppose so, @KitFox

David Wallace

In Bosnian, that's almost rude.

Vitaly

01:00

Oh, and белокурый predates Nietzsche by quite a while

David Wallace

kurac is slang for penis.

KitFox

Has anyone seen @JSB lately? I don't think I've seen him since his car accident.

Vitaly

Heh.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox looks like the last time he was here was feb 15th (at a drunken guess)

David Wallace

When you wrote "Белокурая бестия же", I initially parsed it as "white penis monster".

Matt Эллен

01:03

lol

Vitaly

@MattЭллен chat.stackexchange.com/users/5282/jsbngs?tab=recent according to this, Sun 3:42 PM

KitFox

Oh damn. His uncle died?

Matt Эллен

I would say Vitaly's summary is much clever than mine

KitFox

I thought I had subscribed to his blog, but I guess not.

@MattЭллен Well, you are drunk and he is a genius, so. Well. You know.

Matt Эллен

i do

KitFox

01:06

Damn it. The stove's gone out and I have a cat sleeping on me.

Matt Эллен

does the stove need to be on?

if so, cats will land on their feet

it's law

David Wallace

I'm sure the stove will be home soon.

KitFox

tries to reach reset button with tips of fingers

Matt Эллен

use the forks, Kit!

KitFox

startles awake

Wha—?

@MattЭллен Oh that's terrible.

Matt Эллен

01:14

I aim to please

but I'm short sighted

KitFox

I thought you were long-sighted.

Matt Эллен

no, I don't see distances well

KitFox

Hey, what's your opinion of this sentence: "My thoughts slowly focus in the snow and the cold."

Matt Эллен

good. it's slow, which is a large part of the implication

KitFox

Wait, you're drunk and 2am, aren't you?

Matt Эллен

01:16

01:15

i was drinking with people

KitFox

Why can't I ever get that conversion right?

Matt Эллен

I wouldn't worry, I don't either

KitFox

It's the "focus in" I think that is troubling me.

It makes a weird little bridge in the middle.

Matt Эллен

it has good rythm

David Wallace

"focus in" is fine.

KitFox

01:17

frowns

David Wallace

It means "I am in the snow and the cold, and my thoughts are slowly focussing".

KitFox

OK then.

Matt Эллен

condense might be more in keeping with the weather

David Wallace

So "focus in" doesn't belong together, but it doesn't matter because "in" goes with snow and cold.

Matt Эллен

but it wouldn't roll off the tongue so easily

David Wallace

01:18

If it said "slowly focus on the snow and the cold", the meaning would be completely different.

KitFox

I know the technicalities, it's the reading of it that I'm unsure of. I like the condense idea.

Precipitate is probably trying too hard, eh?

David Wallace

I find "thoughts condense" a bit odd.

KitFox

My thoughts slowly condense in the snow and the cold.

Matt Эллен

yeah, might be that precipitate goes over one or two heads. depends on yer audience

KitFox

I like that better.

David Wallace

01:20

No, "focus" is better than "condense". In my opinion of course.

Matt Эллен

glad we could stoke your thoughts

KitFox

How would you describe the stench of urine and sweat together?

Matt Эллен

putrid

KitFox

Putrid is too strong.

user19161

So I heard there is no need to do rep recalc anymore?

KitFox

01:22

Tru dat.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy indeed

David Wallace

musky?

user19161

@MattЭллен No wonder the world is ending this year.

David Wallace

depends on the proportions really.

KitFox

Musky. Hmm.

Robusto

01:23

@Cerberus: Did you see my comment on your Pericles answer?

David Wallace

rank, fetid or whiffy

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy part of me says "if only"

KitFox

Maybe fetid. Rancid.

Rank could work.

Matt Эллен

but he's stupid and defeatist, so I ignore him

David Wallace

I like rank.

user19161

01:24

@MattЭллен Really? You have a crisis like me?

David Wallace

Is this part of the same story as the focussing thoughts?

KitFox

Mouldering.

@DavidWallace Yes.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy hmmm, not as strong

user19161

I decided to combine the steel blue with a nice formula for my new avatar! It will appear soon.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Aww. hugs

Matt Эллен

01:25

thanks :)

Robusto

So ... did anybody lose rep in The Great Reshuffling?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto only on Programmers.se

user19161

@MattЭллен Well, there can be miracles when you believe, and this is not the religious sense.

Robusto

I don't think I lost any.

KitFox

How about squalid?

@Robusto I gained.

user19161

01:26

@Robusto I do rep recalc regularly so no worries.

David Wallace

@Robusto Yes. And more today after somebody rescinded an acceptance on ELU, and downvoted an answer on SO (probably not the same somebody).

Matt Эллен

@KitFox that to me is how yo describe a place, not a smell

David Wallace

My rep graph is sloping downwards.

user19161

@Robusto You can't notice because the loss divided by your total is too small you see.

KitFox

Maybe I should just use "urine and sweat stench"

2

David Wallace

01:27

Does squalid mean smelly?

Robusto

@KitFox This is important to you why?

David Wallace

Wiktionary says "dirty and unpleasant". Is that what you're going for?

user19161

@kit I can't believe you talked about m on the bus, I may have done that before.

KitFox

@Robusto I'm revising.

Robusto

@DavidWallace No.

@KitFox Your hygiene or your vocabulary?

KitFox

01:29

@JasperLoy That's too much information, and I didn't start it, I think @Cerb did.

David Wallace

@Robusto ROFLMAO

KitFox

How does that merit stars?

user19161

@KitFox Oh I thought you are usually the one to start such things.

Matt Эллен

he did. he sugeested that it is normal for children to masturbate on the bus

David Wallace

@MattЭллен while talking about Jasper?

user19161

01:30

@DavidWallace Nothing to do with me!

Matt Эллен

not if I recall correctly

David Wallace

I'm trying to think about how I would react if I got on a bus in a black neighbourhood, and some little kid said "Mummy is that a snowman". But it's not really a valid parallel.

KitFox

Maybe if the kid said "Cracker."

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Actually I think he said "some children do this", not "it's normal".

user19161

@DavidWallace What does the snowman refer to?

Matt Эллен

01:32

@DavidWallace ah. my mistake

David Wallace

Well a snowman is not exactly a monkey.

user19161

Now I am lost. I don't see the relation between black, snowman and monkey.

Robusto

@DavidWallace Well, I can tell you how I reacted when I took the El through the West Side of Chicago at night and a black man got on and sat in the seat in front of me, then turned around and stared right at me menacingly for six stops.

KitFox

Is it poor style to use "that" twice in a sentence like this? Should one of the "that"s be a "which"?
"Behind me is the glass door that leads to a fetid hallway that bends around gradually..."

David Wallace

Behind me is the glass door that leads to a fetid hallway bending around gradually?

KitFox

01:33

@Robusto Did you tell him to take a picture because it would last longer?

David Wallace

@Robusto what did you do?

user19161

@KitFox I think it is fine though you may wish to rewrite it as it sounds awkward.

Robusto

@KitFox Oh, ferchrissakes. Just write the fucking thing. If you worry about how many times you're writing "that" you have already lost.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I think if you then go on to describe something else using that then is is good because you creating the impression that something is going on for a long way or time

David Wallace

Or "Behind me is a glass door leading to a fetid hallway that bends around gradually"

Robusto

01:35

@DavidWallace I avoided eye contact and wished like hell he wasn't going to start anything. My girlfriend and I were the only non-African-Americans on the train.

user19161

Using ing twice sounds awkward as well.

David Wallace

@Robusto she's revising, not writing.

user19161

@Robusto Was there any reason for him to do that?

David Wallace

But I don't think you should use "which" just because you used "that" last time.

Robusto

Also, sentences should have between eight and fifteen words. It's awkward when you have long words mixed in with short ones. And never, ever, type with your mouth full of food.

Matt Эллен

01:37

not ever

user19161

@Robusto Never heard this eight fifteen rule.

David Wallace

Actually, I find a mixture of long sentences with very short ones can be quite enthralling.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Was there any reason for him not to? When someone is eyeballing you in public, it is very aggressive behavior.

David Wallace

I assume you meant sentences, not words.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Well, I guess we don't tell the important rules to pineapples.

David Wallace

01:38

I was reading a bizarre thread somewhere, I don't remember where, about black people waiting for white people to walk past, then spitting on the ground behind them.

Matt Эллен

the precious rules of how to write stuff

user19161

@Robusto Well, the reason for him not to would be that you did not do anything to him.

user19161

I guess I don't understand the culture there.

Robusto

@JasperLoy You're forgetting about 400 years of racial oppression. Which I didn't do personally, but I was the closest exemplar on which he could vent his outrage and anger.

David Wallace

Crap! Guptill's out, caught by du Plessis off Tsotsobe.

user19161

01:43

Just now two men asked me where Pub A was. A few hours later another two men asked me where Pub B was. I don't go to these places but I happened to know.

David Wallace

Sorry, I realise none of you are likely to understand my last remark (unless Simon's still here) but I had to vent somewhere.

Robusto

@DavidWallace You're not watching a test match, are you?

user19161

@DavidWallace Vent all you want, that's what this place is for.

David Wallace

It's the third One Day International.

We were roundly thrashed in the first two.

KitFox

@Robusto I'm revising. I already wrote the fucking thing.

David Wallace

01:45

Tsotsobe had 2 maidens in a row, and Guptill had just smashed him to the boundary 2 balls earlier.

Robusto

@KitFox That's no excuse. As soon as you start agonizing, you lose. Believe me, I've done it before: dismantled perfectly good prose because my left brain thought it had to pay attention to a lot of really petty bullshit.

@DavidWallace I'll bet Guptill was leg before and didn't get caught.

KitFox

@Robusto OK then. So should I just not revise? Or am I doing it wrong?

David Wallace

It was actually a pretty spectacular catch at backward point.

Robusto

@KitFox If you get into the tortured state, put it down and do something else. Pick it up and look at it fresh. Better to leave something that doesn't feel quite right than to destroy it utterly.

user19161

@Robusto Three kinds of anger come to mind: anger at the person who hurt you, anger at the person who acts like the person who hurt you and hurts another, and this. The first is totally understandable, the second too, but the third is just not. But I know what you mean.

David Wallace

01:48

Or, put down a possible revision; then on a later date, choose between the original and the revision.

Robusto

Honestly, I speak from experience.

KitFox

@Robusto How do I know when to come back to it? How do I know what is a real tweak, and what is something I should just leave alone?

@Robusto I know. That's why I'm asking you.

David Wallace

Damn, and now Steyn bowled a maiden at McCullum. It's 14/1 off 6. How poo is that?

user19161

@KitFox My two cents is: when you feel fresh.

Robusto

@KitFox One writes from spontaneous inspiration, the glorious freedom of a child. But editing calls in that prescriptivist schoolmarm bitch who whacked you with a ruler when you were a kid. And all she wants to do is destroy.

KitFox

01:50

@JasperLoy I don't douche and I never shall.

David Wallace

@KitFox No! Not fresh is actually a good time to write the revisions. Just not to commit to them.

Robusto

@DavidWallace What kind of "fresh" are we talking about now? Massengill fresh?

user19161

I think there is a bug in chat. If I am in Room A and B, leave room B and remain in A, A still keeps showing I am in B.

David Wallace

I mean that KitFox's revisions are not going to be of a lower quality just because she's tired.

Did you actually click "leave"?

KitFox

@Robusto I want to get this out now. I need to put it out somewhere where people will see it so I can just let it go.

user19161

01:52

@DavidWallace Yes, but B automatically reloads after a while.

Robusto

Anyway, the answer is this: if you can't make it better — and it's clear you feel you can't, because it's torturing you — then you can only make it worse.

KitFox

If I hang on to it, I will ruminate on it for always and ever.

user19161

It's like autorefill of B in A.

Robusto

@KitFox OK, I'll give you a pro tip. Want to hear what I do when I really want things to sound right?

KitFox

@Robusto listens

David Wallace

01:53

I too see an odd bug in chat. The number of unread messages inflates, while I'm off in other tabs, then comes right when I return to the tab with the room. This has only been happening today.

user19161

@Robusto Most torture never happened -- Mark Twain quote modified.

Robusto

@KitFox Read it out loud to someone else. You will see most problems immediately. I guarantee it.

KitFox

@Robusto I don't know if I can do that.

But I will think on it.

Robusto

And you will also notice the spots that are perfect, because they flow smoothly off the tongue.

David Wallace

I have no complaints with your continuing to type it here.

Does anyone?

Robusto

01:54

@DavidWallace I think you should revise that statement. ^_^

David Wallace

Jinx

KitFox

Hahaha.

Robusto

Better.

KitFox

Thanks, @Robusto, really thank you.

Robusto

@KitFox Writing is speech. If you can't read your stuff out loud, it won't sound right in your reader's ear.

David Wallace

01:56

Comment on cricinfo - Marcus can't get over the run-rate: "Oh well, guess its time to go back to the shed to watch paint dry if NZ are going to bat like this."

@Robusto but if you post snippets here, we can all read it aloud in the privacy of our own homes.

KitFox

@Robusto I meant in terms of reflecting on my I've written. I think my prose is readable, generally speaking.

David Wallace

and by "you" I mean KitFox.

Robusto

@KitFox It needs to be more than readable. It needs to speak.

KitFox

Yeah, but no pressure or anything.

user19161

The ape in "The rise of the planet of the apes" can speak.

KitFox

01:59

@Robusto Speaking of speaking, did you read the one I wrote about my mother?

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