English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@rumtscho On the contrary! You haven't seen our discussions about whether this question about a certain comma is a semi-duplicate or a full duplicate of the other comma question...

rumtscho

12:45 AM

@Cerberus When I said "these" discussions, I meant the cooking ones.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm does he just dislike this kind of discussion (about off-topicality), or any kind?

rumtscho

@Cerberus I think he dislikes discussion of any kind when the person he is discussing it with is as obstinate as he is (and that's me).

KitFox

@rumtscho You are not obstinate!

rumtscho

@KitFox yes I am!

KitFox

@rumtscho tch Like I am just supposed to take your word for it.

David Wallace

12:48 AM

I've just noticed I lost 45 rep on ELU, for no apparent reason. Anyone know how this might have happened?

KitFox

@DavidWallace Recalcs happen periodically.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm OK, that does match my person experience with him.

@rumtscho Ding! We have a winner.

David Wallace

I know that, but what could have caused me to suddenly have 646, after I've been on 691 for about a week?

Cerberus

@DavidWallace There is a post on Meta.

KitFox

I think there must have been one recently, because I gained rep from nowhere.

Oh.

Cerberus

12:50 AM

Ripper something lost 250 points.

And didn't like it.

I have no idea whether I lost any.

But I'm still above 20k.

Last time I lost 500 or so.

rumtscho

@Cerberus yes, I wanted to watch a Sherlock episode tonight.

So I decided to give up.

KitFox

I'm confused how I gained rep.

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm I do in general applaud your wise decision!

David Wallace

Oh, it'll be the "answered questions that were subsequently deleted" bit.

Cerberus

But instead you came looking for another discussion here...?

David Wallace

12:52 AM

@KitFox, maybe you answered questions, had your answers downvoted, and then the questions were deleted.

KitFox

I hardly ever get downvoted though.

Cerberus

@KitFox Did you really? Hmm perhaps someone really liked a bunch of your answers?

David Wallace

@KitFox I can change that if you like.

rumtscho

@Cerberus No, I had this room open all the time, but didn't have anything to contribute.

Cerberus

@KitFox How can you tell?

I mean, is there a general statistic?

@rumtscho Heh aww.

David Wallace

12:54 AM

So in future, I shan't bother answering questions that might get deleted in the future.

Cerberus

You rep ho...

David Wallace

If I gain an ability, by reaching a reputation threshold, then fall back below that threshold, do I lose that ability?

KitFox

AFK

rumtscho

Mmm, these sherlocks are 90 minutes each. Maybe I should read a book instead and try to fall asleep at a reasonable time.

Or, a less unreasonable time than more than 90 min from now.

KitFox

OK I'm back.

@DavidWallace Yes.

@Cerberus I don't think so. But I notice when I get downvotes usually.

I wonder what would've gotten deleted that I had a bunch of downvotes on.

Oh! Or maybe there were a bunch of questions that I downvoted that got deleted.

rumtscho

12:58 AM

@KitFox Maybe the opposite happened.

David Wallace

How much rep do you think you gained?

Cerberus

@rumtscho Haha, you're just as impossible as many of us.

@KitFox Ah OK.

rumtscho

A question got undeleted, and you had an upvoted answer.

Cerberus

@KitFox Hmm that could be it! But it'd have to be a whole lot.

KitFox

Whoa!

Now it's changed again. Just now.

Cerberus

1:00 AM

Wow...

Rebecca Chernoff

you can see all of this in your reputation history now

KitFox

So I just lost about 27 points.

AH!

Rebecca Chernoff

if a post is deleted, this will be reflected in your reputation score, but also visible in the reputation history

KitFox

hides in grey sack

Rebecca Chernoff

it will show that a post was deleted and the rep change due to that

that's the main part of this project - keeping rep in sync

David Wallace

1:01 AM

OK, I have nothing like that in my reputation log.

I'm just down 45 for no good reason.

Oddly, on the sites where I'm more vocal, and make more votes, my rep is unchanged.

KitFox

I can see it. +1 deleted

-10 unupvote

Rebecca Chernoff

@DavidWallace not for no good reason. in the past, rep wasn't kept in sync. we did a global recalc today so that everyone's rep is now in sync...and it'll stay in sync going forward.

David Wallace

And just recently, I was feeling bummed that my ELU rep was higher than my rep on Programmers. I can't see that happening again in the near future.

Rebecca Chernoff

if you go back in your history, you'll find it the old change that's now visible.

David Wallace

OK, I spoke incorrectly; it would be no "visible" reason.

Rebecca Chernoff

1:03 AM

it will be visible, it's just it could be from a year ago and your reputation has just been out of sync for a year.

David Wallace

Oh, yeah, sorry. You're absolutely right, of course.

Rebecca Chernoff

I'm always right q:

KitFox

Except when you're sinister.

Rebecca Chernoff

I would never!

KitFox

jumps back in hidey sack

David Wallace

1:07 AM

Ah yes, I have -35 from something that got deleted, when I had 2 upvotes and an acceptance. The title was "Interrogative form of a sentence" and I have no memory of answering such a question whatsoever.

@KitFox Groan!

Cerberus

@KitFox wham! catches sack and pricks it on system tray like the other ones

@DavidWallace Story of my life.

KitFox

giggles from secret hidey spot

David Wallace

Strine

Strine is a term coined in 1964 and subsequently used to describe a broad accent of Australian English. The term is a syncope, derived from a shortened phonetic rendition of the pronunciation of the word "Australian" in an exaggerated Broad Australian accent, drawing upon the tendency of this accent to run words together in a form of liaison. It was the subject of humorous columns published in the Sydney Morning Herald from the mid 1960s. Alastair Ardoch Morrison, under the Strine pseudonym of Afferbeck Lauder (a syncope for "Alphabetical Order"), wrote a song "With Air Chew" ("Without ...

Relates to a conversation @Cerby and I were having earlier.

Cerberus

Haha.

Pretty funny @Davey.

David Wallace

I don't think I intentionally said anything funny.

Cerberus

1:12 AM

No, the article.

Afferbeck Lauder and With Air Chew.

David Wallace

The article is funnier if you read it out loud in a broad Australian accent.

I can't even say "1964" and keep a straight face.

KitFox

Foster's. Austraaaaalian for beeyah.

David Wallace

@KitFox It's the only decent thing to come out of Australia

KitFox

Uh, right.

Cerberus

They are still discussing the merits of jar-opening.

David Wallace

1:25 AM

I might go and post on meta about the rep thing. I would have thought my ability to provide good answers to questions (or otherwise) is independent of whether those questions subsequently get deleted. And therefore, if a score is to measure "reputation", it should include subsequently deleted questions. Am I alone in this view? If so, I'll leave it alone.

Cerberus

I agree, but I predict that a question on Meta will get you nowhere.

KitFox

I understand your point, but questions don't usually get deleted unless they are very, very bad.

Cerberus

They won't change their new system.

KitFox

So by answering them, you are being very, very naughty, even if it is a good answer.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I predict you're probably right, but what harm can it do?

Cerberus

1:27 AM

A question was deleted my answer to which has 12 up-votes and a checkmark.

David Wallace

Well, I'm not being naughty; I'm just failing to be good.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace It could frustrate you, but otherwise none.

David Wallace

Ouch! -135!

If I produce a fantastic answer to a terrible question, doesn't that indicate how smart I am? And therefore enhance my reputation in the community?

Cerberus

english.stackexchange.com/questions/8717/what-are-smart-words/…

@DavidWallace I agree.

From the beginning I have been very sceptical of all the endless debates about off-topicness and rules and whatnot, but that's the way all these sites work.

They have their reasons. So be it.

One should not care about reputation anyway.

David Wallace

Then why does it exist?

Cerberus

1:32 AM

As a way to assess how reliable the answers of a certain user are.

If someone with -100 rep posts a answer, you can skip it if you're in a hurry.

If several answers seem to contradict each other and you have no way of knowing which one looks more credible, you could assume the one given by the 10,000 user was more likely to be true than the one by the 20 user.

David Wallace

In other words it should be a measure of how likely my answers are to be right.

So my argument about the fantastic answer to the terrible question holds.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Yes.

@DavidWallace Yes, absolutely.

But, you know.

Sometimes the majority has a different opinion from our own.

David Wallace

And how naughty does a question have to be to get DELETED, rather than just CLOSED?

Or can the poster self-delete?

Kind of - I've got my answer, now I don't want anyone else to benefit from my ignorance.

@Cerberus This should not be allowed!

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I know! I do my best here every day to prevent that from happening, but, alas, sometimes the whole world is mad but I!

@DavidWallace I don't think he can.

@DavidWallace That is the question. I don't know: it requires three votes, I think, or a mod vote.

KitFox

It must be closed before it can be deleted.

Except mod deletion.

And I think posters can delete their own posts.

Cerberus

1:39 AM

(Now they are discussing what "cooking" is. Also quite funny.)

David Wallace

I'm tempted to jump in, say "it depends on whether you have to open jars" and run away.

Cerberus

@KitFox But not questions, unless there are no answers.

David Wallace

But yes, it's hilarious.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Haha you should do that.

Most of them are really nice, though, so you won't get the upheaval you might like...

KitFox

I can't believe Cooking is a threat to the popularity of EL&U.

moue

Cerberus

1:40 AM

Who says it is?

It isn't.

KitFox

> I am reluctant to say so, but there are some important changes that probably should be made to the structure and design of the database if you think you will use it

I don't know how to finish this sentence.

Or if I should say something different.

Can you guys help?

Cerberus

Hmm you want to change the "if you think you will use it" bit?

David Wallace

@KitFox maybe. What are you trying to say?

Does the audience have a particular use for the DB in mind?

KitFox

There's this chickenwire and baling twine Access DB project that I agreed to do some specific work for.

It is a non-profit, and some friends of mine work there.

So think "charity case."

And anyway, they built it themselves and are proud of what they accomplished, which they should be, except that they aren't DB designers and have made several rookie mistakes that are just going to get compounded if they don't fix them.

David Wallace

... if you anticipate its use increasing over time.

Ah, I've seen MSAccess databases like that!

KitFox

1:45 AM

That's a pretty good turn of phrase.

Cerberus

> I am reluctant to say so, but there are some important changes that probably should be made to the structure and design of the database first; otherwise you may run into problems later.

Or "now".

KitFox

"First" won't work. I've already finish most of the specific stuff they asked me to do.

David Wallace

In order to ensure that this database continues to provide good service, there are some fundamental changes to its structure that I would strongly advise you to consider.

KitFox

> I am willing to do the work, and I can provide you with spec if you want to know more about the changes I would advise you to make.

How's that?

I don't want to push it too hard.

I'm not sure how much I want this work.

Cerberus

Hmm...

KitFox

1:48 AM

Plus, I have another long term project coming online very soon.

Cerberus

@KitFox Maybe decide on that first.

It's generally best to either "gladly" do the work, or not at all.

KitFox

They pay really well, and are impressed with every little thing I do.

David Wallace

Hey Cerberus, I just listened to about 3 seconds of that "Argentine accent" vid that you posted the link to earlier. He's definitely an Aussie.

Cerberus

It is like replying to an RSVP: you don't usually say "I will come, but grudgingly". You either accept "gladly" or decline.

@DavidWallace Yay!

I knew it.

Of course you needed only 3 secs.

David Wallace

Actually, I needed about half a second, but I had already switched to another tab, and I needed to find the right tab, then the stop button, which took another 2.5.

Cerberus

1:50 AM

Ah, yes.

KitFox

@Cerberus I know, but these are my friends and they are using this for a good cause, and ...

David Wallace

Umm, KitFox, so you only want a couple of sentences, right? That's really hard.

I don't think you can say "this is really bad" without being concrete about it.

Cerberus

@KitFox In what way will you profit from saying, "hey, I'd rather not do it, but if you really want me to..."?

You'd rather not do it, so you want them to only accept if they really need it?

David Wallace

I think if you're going to do this at all, you need to write at least a page about it. You can advise them to hire a professional Access developer (OMG that sounds like an oxymoron) if they want it fixed.

KitFox

3 mins ago, by KitFox

They pay really well, and are impressed with every little thing I do.

I'd just rather not work in Access.

Cerberus

1:53 AM

I still say, make up your mind first.

David Wallace

Are you going to propose that they re-develop it in a real database?

Besides, you can write this page or so of "why they should do it", before you decide whether you actually want the job.

KitFox

Essentially, they have myriad natural keys that are strings, and some of their tables need normalization.

I'd suggest a real database, but they don't have anyone who can maintain it.

But they really, really must sort out this stuff before it gets wildly out of control.

David Wallace

How much of an application layer is there on top of it all? How much of the DB logic is encoded in Query objects? How many Query objects all up?

KitFox

Not many, and I wrote all of those.

But lots of forms.

And I didn't create those.

David Wallace

So if you re-did the table structures, you could re-write all the queries without changing their interfaces, and it would just all work? Or do some of the forms access the tables directly, without going through queries?

Cerberus

1:57 AM

That sounds frustrating to work with...

David Wallace

Cerberus - OMG, what did I start in the frying pan?

KitFox

@DavidWallace There's the rub.

David Wallace

You mean, yes, some of the forms do go directly to the tables?

Some of the forms? Most of the forms? All of the forms?

KitFox

I mean, yes, pretty much all of them go directly to the tables.

But it really must be done.

David Wallace

Aargh!

KitFox

1:59 AM

So that would line my pockets nicely.

That's part of the reason I am reluctant.

David Wallace

But I presume it wasn't you who wrote these forms?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

While putting my 2yo son to bed, I held him close, like I used to when he was a newborn, and put my nose against his. Then he said "Effing big nose. Effing big nose." I was a bit taken aback. Then I asked him, "Elephant has a big nose?" "Yup". Phew!

KitFox

I don't want them to think that I'm one of those mechanics that tells you all the other stuff that needs to be fixed right now, when all you've done is bring it in for an oil change.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 ROFL

@DavidWallace No, absolutely not.

David Wallace

You could send it to an independent consultant to look at, who can make recommendations. I'll give you my email address.

KitFox

Hahaha.

We could tag team it.

David Wallace

2:01 AM

No, Mr Shiny, my last comment wasn't about your nose!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox But if someone brought in a car that was lacking in basic safety features, like seatbelts and brakes, and the motor was on the verge of falling apart, and the electrical system was adequate as long as you didn't try to use the power-windows while the radio was on, shouldn't you just tell them about it?

KitFox

Yes, of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Phew!

KitFox

But I don't want them to think that I'm trying to rip them off.

And people are so weird when it comes to understanding information systems.

David Wallace

OK, tell them that you've got some suspicions about the maintainability of their system. Tell them that you know a consultant who will work for NOTHING to advise them how they might proceed. Then, it's not YOU who are recommending your own employment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:03 AM

@KitFox I would do it this way: present two alternatives. One, a quick fix that you feel ethically informed to tell them is the equivalent of bracing their collapsing ceiling with rock-concert posters. And two, the expensive solution. Spell out a few pros and cons and your best idea of the costs. Then leave it open for them to get a second opinion.

David Wallace

I'm perfectly happy, as a favour to you, to look over one MS Access system and make recommendations.

Did I mention that I have over 20 years' IT experience, at least some of which is working with Access?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I can't really offer alternatives, but I could tell them that I think they should get the work done.

@DavidWallace I will keep it in mind. :-)

What's your rate?

David Wallace

@KitFox I'm not offering to do any development. I will look it over and make recommendations. As I said before, I will do that for FREE as a favour to you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I thought they wanted you to make some changes?

KitFox

@DavidWallace I appreciate the offer. Thank you.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I've done most of those. I'm sending them the first round with the new reports and such. I just feel obligated to tell them about their key problem.

David Wallace

2:07 AM

But don't expect me to spend days on it. KitFox, do you want my email address; maybe we can discuss it further offline?

KitFox

We talked about it a day or so ago.

@DavidWallace I have to check with them first. I believe they consider the data confidential.

14 mins ago, by KitFox

Essentially, they have myriad natural keys that are strings, and some of their tables need normalization.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Haha that was a narrow escape.

KitFox

@DavidWallace Why don't you give me your email anyway? That way I can just send it to you if they give the go ahead.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Ah, well, if you merely tell them about it and don't try to force them into changing it, I don't think they'll mind. It is, after all, why they hired an expert.

David Wallace

OK, I'll write it down then delete it, so it doesn't stay here permanently. Are you ready to copy paste it?

KitFox

2:12 AM

Yep.

got it.

So, @Cerb, you gonna start punching cards, now that you're surrounded by all these programmers?

Cerberus

@KitFox I might! I do kind of like my AHK wax rolls, though...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus did you hear that the Kahn institute has decided to use Javascript as its official beginner programming language?

David Wallace

Noo!!!

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, the guy who makes all those instructional YT videos? I suppose Js is a good language to start in.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I really like the nice parts of Javascript. I really dislike some of the ugly parts.

Overall, though, I like JS. So I recommend using it to start coding. Problem #1: most practical JS requires you to also know HTML and CSS, both are bottomless wells of knowledge which are somewhat orthogonal to programming.

Cerberus

2:17 AM

(:3653281 At least it would have some foreseeable practical usefulness for me.)

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Agreed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But for basics it can certainly work especially if an instructor has created a bit of a sandbox for you to code in.

David Wallace

In what way is Javascript better for beginners than Java?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right, yes, that was actually a problem I ran into when tried learning Js.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace It's already available on every computer, for one

Don't get me wrong, I like Java too. I'm a java programmer by day. But I just love the ability to create an anonymous function and pass it as an argument to another function. That's way easier in Javascript than in Java.

David Wallace

2:24 AM

Yes, passing functions to other functions is easier in JS. But is this a good thing for a beginner to be able to do? I shudder to think what will happen if we unleash a whole generation of programmers that believe that functions and classes are somehow the same thing.

KitFox

Hahaha

David Wallace

I guess if you want to train Javascript programmers, then Javascript is the right thing to teach. But it would be a shame if the graduates of such a course thought that they understood programming more generally.

And re availability on every computer - well, frankly, so what? It's not a big deal to download and install the JDK.

Also, if you use the JS implementation that's available on all computers (ie, the one in the default browser), don't you run the risk that students will confuse elements of Javascript with elements of the HTML DOM?

Oh, it's a Lego model! I need my eyes tested. I thought Mr S&N's avatar was a chicken.

KitFox

Hahahaha. Everyone thinks that at first.

0

Q: Mixing plural and singular list items with a single verb

A friend wants to write, There is no hardware to purchase, no additional software to install and no key fobs to worry about. This is technically incorrect because the verb "is" doesn't match up with the third item, which is plural and demands "There are" as the subject. However, There is n...

grammar

DUPE!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Yeah, but beginners always have trouble identifying the boundaries of their platform, or knowing what's good and bad in their platform. But given the ubiquity of JS (+html+css) I think it's inevitable that it takes over as a programming platform for the masses.

KitFox

Except I can't find it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:35 AM

Heck, Mozilla is releasing a phone where the only process is Gecko

KitFox

@Reg could if he were here.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The hoi polloi even. ;-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think a good portion of people who use "the hoi polloi" actually mean "hoi polloi" to represent the "elite" or an isolated group, and not the masses.

everyone I've asked has given me that interpretation.

@Cerberus must be rolling over in his grave.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What!?

KitFox

Did you miss the recent conflagration?

Cerberus

rolls over like a good dog

KitFox

2:38 AM

Hahaha. Funny typo.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hands out dog treats

@KitFox you mean the one I was part of? conflagrating?

KitFox

I meant the other other one, @Cerb.

Cerberus

@KitFox I still have to think about it...I'm causing volcanic eruptions upstairs?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh. Well, I was there too.

Laughing.

Cerberus

ponders

KitFox

2:40 AM

What's that other word I like?

Ah, yes. Fracas.

David Wallace

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You paint a bleak picture of the future.

KitFox

@Cerberus punches left head

Cerberus

@KitFox Oh.

David Wallace

@MrShinyandNew安宇 There was an episode of that ghastly sitcom with David Spade, in which two characters argued over the meaning of "hoi polloi".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace nah, it's not so bad. What difference if the future is Java/Dalvik or iOS or Win32 or .Net or HTML/JS? Platforms is platforms, code is code, what matters is getting apps out the door and money out of users' wallets

@DavidWallace I think this phrase might be terminally broken

David Wallace

2:44 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK, fair point. I'll keep my bigotry to myself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It just doesn't seem like it's used consistently. Thankfully it's not used often.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Java/Dalek? OMG.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox EXTERMINATE

(Dalvik is the name of the "java" VM that Android uses)

KitFox

nods

feels pleased

David Wallace

Yeah, along with "opaque" and "scan".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:46 AM

people don't use opaque properly?

David Wallace

I occasionally hear it used to mean either "colourless", or "transparent", or at least "partially transparent". It makes me pull my hair out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace wow, that's just plain wrong

David Wallace

Yes, and don't get me started on "scan".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In my experience that is not a common error (opaque)

David Wallace

About 20 years ago, the telco that provides our phone boxes took down all their old red phone boxes, and replaced them with (in the words of their marketing spiel) opaque ones. These were made of clear glass.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:49 AM

@DavidWallace srlsy? pukes

David Wallace

I shit you not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Wow and I thought I felt smug and superior when I pointed out to the fast food place that the things they sell to go with your burger are not compliments.

p.s. they changed the sign so maybe I made a positive change in the world!

KitFox

claps Well done!

David Wallace

(Umm, in case "phone box" is a regionalism, I mean "phone booth")

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You nasty perspectivist!

Robusto

2:52 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right. Ketchup and mustard are complements. <beams>

David Wallace

There used to be a fruiterer near me who sold "nectarince".

KitFox

gasp That's not a very nice way to say poofter.

David Wallace

Good luck inserting an apostrophe in that!

@KitFox ROFL

Cerberus

Hahaha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I read a book once where one character was gay... actually I guess it was the main character? or something. anyway, at one point his sister-in-law wants to ask him to donate sperm because his brother is sterile and they want to have kids. So she writes him a letter because she has a hard time putting it into words. He imagines what the letter will say (he imagines it as a telegram). "Brother can't have kids. Want your sperm. OK if kid turns out poofty."

That word "poofty" made me laugh for about 6 months afterwards whenever I thought of it.

poofty

KitFox

2:56 AM

LOL

Cerberus

Haha2.

KitFox

yawns

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…