English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

ana ng

00:02

Hello!

M.A.R.

06:42

@anang Jello

@Cerberus Water? Yeah, water could work

Ruslan Doronichev

08:18

Hello! What is the correct sentence structure?

"How it should look" or "How should it look"

terdon

08:32

@RuslanDoronichev Depends on what you want to say: "How should it look? is asking; How it should look is stating. For example: "How should it look? Is it OK like this?" and "This is how it should look, please fix it".

Ruslan Doronichev

Wow

Thanks a lot!:)

terdon

You're welcome.

Oh, you can also say Is this how it should look?.

Mitch

12:17

@Gigili is it too late ... nowruz mubarak!

Matt E. Эллен

13:46

I know that "they" is a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and I know I can use "one" as another option, but sometimes I'd really like a word specially reserved as a gender-neutral singular pronoun for people.

why haven't we settled on "ze" or something, already?

I'll happily use "it" for animals, but not for people

skill patrol

How about "us" or "we"?

Matt E. Эллен

they already have a purpose, and so won't be specially reserved for gender-neutral singular

skill patrol

Perhaps, we need an example.

Matt E. Эллен

"They're not alone if they're dining with someone" would be clearer if I could say "ze's not alone if ze's dining with someone". But people would understand me even less at the moment, or assume I'm talking about Ze Frank.

skill patrol

I like "one."

One is not alone if one is dining with someone.

Matt E. Эллен

14:13

Yeah, I guess one is alright there. But "One's getting away! Stop <?>" is obviously terrible

skill patrol

That one is getting away! Stop.

You could always use the ugly (s)he construct.

Matt E. Эллен

noöne would shout "him/her"

M.A.R.

One could always use the ugly one constructs

Matt E. Эллен

and it wouldn't be "that one". I'm talking about a person

M.A.R.

@MattE.Эллен No, but can totally shout S INSIDE PARENTHESIS HE

Matt E. Эллен

14:18

if you wanted to indicate it was a man, "He's getting away! Stop him!"

M.A.R.

@MattE.Эллен But what if it's an anime and we can't decide the gender?

Matt E. Эллен

@M.A.R. I do it all the time

@M.A.R. welcome to the conversation

except, in general not just anime

Andrew Leach

@M.A.R. If it's anime, it's it. Definitely "Stop it." All amime should be stopped.

Matt E. Эллен

harsh! :D

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach Don't ever go to Anime & Manga

Andrew Leach

14:21

@M.A.R. Thanks. I decided that some time ago :)

Matt E. Эллен

I suppose it could be "that one" if they'd broken off from the group

skill patrol

That's what I meant.

Matt E. Эллен

I want to live in a post-gender society where we have all the pronouns we need and I never have to remember if a cat is female

Le chat? La chat?

I don't know

it's a cat

skill patrol

Le Bruce Jenner

Matt E. Эллен

And everyone looks back and says "hahahahaha do you remember when we had to refer to people as either 'he' or 'she' for really arbitrary reasons and we'd get upset if one said the wrong thing. Oh! What crazy times."

and their friend would reply "Sure, but at least we weren't enslaved by robots."

and they'd get back to yttrium mining

ah, the future's bright. The future's radioactive

2

skill patrol

14:30

:D

Andrew Leach

@MattE.Эллен Just remember it's not la chatte. That's something completely different.

Matt E. Эллен

noted

Andrew Leach

Hmm. I had three answers upvoted in less than two minutes this morning. That rep won't last long.

Matt E. Эллен

what's going to happen to it?

do you think it was serial upvoting?

M.A.R.

Reversed by the script

In some 12 hours

Gah, it's even a worse torture than a serial downvote

Andrew Leach

14:35

And mods don't have tools to tell who it is doing that.

Matt E. Эллен

it can be frustrating

Andrew Leach

Oh well. Easy come, easy go.

Matt E. Эллен

it's odd to think that future must be less radioactive than the present because of decay.

Andrew Leach

So life was far more radioactive before the Industrial Revolution? And unbearable during Neanderthal times? Perhaps that's what killed the dinosaurs.

M.A.R.

@MattE.Эллен o.o

Matt E. Эллен

14:45

@AndrewLeach exactly. it doesn't make much sense when you put it like that, but there must have been more radioactive material back then

I guess some of the dinosaurs that lived near where we find uranium must have died of radiation poisoning

M.A.R.

theintercept.com/2017/03/26/…

Mitch

15:57

@MattE.Эллен Singular they entirely works for that too. (viz plural 'you' becoming formal 'you' becoming singular 'you')

Also, all those neologisms like 'ze' are just too weird. No one is going to be comfortable with a foreign word. It's unrecognizable. The semantic slippage needed for 'they' is infinitesimal compared to learning from scratch what 'ze' is.

@AndrewLeach too many bananas

@MattE.Эллен I never thought of it that way. except...by concentrating radioactive material (like in a nuclear power plant) they can make more radiation. If we left everything alone, then you're right.

@terdon That's extremely misleading. The source of the split happened then. BUt the major shiite country, Iran, only 'converted' in the 1700-1800s; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch people say "zoo", why can't they say "ze"?

Mitch

@Cerberus @terdon And as much as I want to comment on ati-semitism vs anti-Israel, I came here to self-promote:

> As the machine belched up vile excrement from the toilet, the plumber in consort let out a strawberry-sweet laugh.

@MattE.Эллен People say 'zoo' for a collection of animals, not for 'those people there'

"Hey, zoo, quit playing in that dumpster"

Matt E. Эллен

you don't want a zoo in a dumpster

Mitch

16:12

It'd stink up the place

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch but it's a foreign word that's been adopted to mean something I'm sure we already had a word for, like... bestiary or something

Mitch

pronouns and other 'closed' (= finite?) set POSes are very resistant to change/borrowing/modification.

except for 'chez'

"We're going to have my 1 year work anniversary for Goldman-Sachs at Chez Guevera"

It's ironic because the 'at' is redundant.

Matt E. Эллен

does "chez" mean "at the home of"?

@Mitch if we start calling people who don't use "ze" low class, it'll catch on pretty quick

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Yes (in French, it really does come from sound changes of the noun 'casa' and slipping in meaning to a preposition). In English is comes from ... I suppose French restaurants, but does sort of meant 'at a place' rather than very specifically 'at the home of' except that it is mostly used that way.

Matt E. Эллен

chez nous

Mitch

16:22

@MattE.Эллен you're right, ze are so declassé

or is it declassée?

argh!

@MattE.Эллен that could be considered entirely a one off borrowing of the entire phrase. 'chez' can still be used productively (with restaurant names obviously).

Or can it?

Matt E. Эллен

Chez Marcel

Chez McDonald's

Chez KFC

Andrew Leach

@Mitch If you're thinking Matt is déclassée, something is seriously wrong somewhere.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch it would be "ze is"

Mitch

Chez Kyer Booti

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Mitch

16:26

I know! And I barely knew her!

Matt E. Эллен

@AndrewLeach I've been stripped of rank! a mod no more sigh

Mitch

@AndrewLeach I was talking about ze. Ze is lacking in social graces.

Wait, how is this supposed to work? Who are we disparaging in order to get people to use 'ze'?

Ze is probably OK.

Matt E. Эллен

people who don't use ze

Mitch

People who use ze are the best!

or is it 'ze'?

Matt E. Эллен

yes

Andrew Leach

16:29

@MattE.Эллен I was concerned about -ée rather than just -é.

Mitch

There's gotta be a way we can fit 'Djibouti' in here somewhere.

Matt E. Эллен

@AndrewLeach I was considering my moderatorship a commission :D

Mitch

@AndrewLeach To take that seriously, the Romance languages, oh and German. And Russian too. they'll all have to have a lot of changes to degenderfy

Matt E. Эллен

oh, google translate has just changed it's mind. declassée now means declassified

so I'm a secret no more

Mitch

That's not what it means, is it?

terdon

16:42

No

> déclassement
nm
1 fait de déclasser, de se déclasser, de changer de classe sociale
2 fait de déranger le classement
3 action de faire passer dans une classe inférieure un bien, un objet

Cerberus

@Mitch That's a poor praeterition!

Mitch

17:07

@Cerberus If I knew what praeterition was, I probably would have done it anyway.

Cerberus

@Mitch I won't explain to you how praeterition is when you say you won't say something but you're actually doing so at that very moment.

Mitch

@terdon Hm... in English the only meaning is 'change in social class'

Cerberus

@terdon Sounds like sports to me.

Being degraded to a lower league or pool.

Changer de classe sociale is difficult!

Mitch

@Cerberus I've been speaking prose all this time?

Cerberus

@Mitch Umm yes, but...why?

Mitch

17:11

@Cerberus Don't mention it.

Cerberus

I won't mention that I am not explaining it.

Mitch

No, really, don't mention it, it brings up bad memories

Cerberus

I won't mention how you're a green square.

Mitch

I thought that went by another name

anaphylaxis

Cerberus

It goes by three names.

That is one.

Mitch

17:13

protoparypton

Cerberus

Ana-something.

I forgot.

Mitch

dermatoglyphics

prolepsis?

Cerberus

It's probably more benign than anaphylaxis, though.

Could be.

The names are not super descriptive.

Mitch

prolepsis sounds very anodyne

avoid eschewing

Cerberus

> I'm not in the mood to quote the following:

"Apophasis (Greek ἀπόφασις from ἀπόφημι apophemi,[1] "to say no"[2]) is a rhetorical device wherein the speaker or writer brings up a subject by either denying it, or denying that it should be brought up.[3] Accordingly, it can be seen as a rhetorical relative of irony.

The device is also called paralipsis (παράλειψις) – also spelled paraleipsis or paralepsis – or occupatio,[4][5][6][7] and known also as praeteritio, preterition, antiphrasis (ἀντίφρασις), or parasiopesis (παρασιώπησις)."

Mitch

17:14

right!

prolepsis is anticipating arguments

Cerberus

You could say that...

Pro = before

Lêpsis = grabbing

Or it could be frok leipô, "leave".

Probably the latter.

terdon

@Cerberus Degraded? Downgraded, perhaps? :P

Cerberus

In the literal sense, to a lower step on the ladder.

Well, semi-literal...

> to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title, especially as a punishment:
degraded from director to assistant director.

terdon

Oh. Damn. The only thing worse than a pedantic know-it-all is a pedantic know-it-all who's wrong. :(

Cerberus

Aww although I wouldn't know who's what.

Mitch

17:22

@terdon How about a person who strangles frogs to death?

terdon

@Mitch You mean a Frenchman?

Mitch

No, you're right.

@terdon du pays de la guillotine? Non, franchement!

terdon

Frogs have no necks, dude!

Mitch

That's how terrible they are!

terdon

bastards.

Mitch

17:24

the stranglers, not the frogs.

just to clarify

I don't want people to get the wrong idea

Like "the integral of e to the -x^2/2 from -\infty to \infty = \pi"

That's a totally wrong idea

It goes without saying that this is no apophasis

Cerberus

I believe most frogs are now imported from Indonesia, actually.

And their legs are torn out...alive.

It's pretty horrible.

Mitch

@Cerberus sacrée grenouille

Cerberus

Not quite sacrée!

There was an article about it.

Mitch

@Cerberus La nourriture est la souffrance

I actually heard a French person say that once (or something like it)

Cerberus

Bien sûr, mais il y a de la souffrance et de la souffrance horrible.

C'est la vérité.

Et les plantes, est-ce qu'ils souffrent quand on les coupe?

Mitch

17:29

The person was a baker so I'm not sure how relevant it was to his work

maybe singeing his finger tips when pulling loaves out of the oven?

Cerberus

Think of the plants!

Mitch

@Cerberus L'horreur!

Cerberus

Peut-être.

Mitch

Ô rage!

Cerberus

A friend of mine is now in parliament.

Mitch

17:31

Quelle dommage

Cerberus

Guess how he began his first speech, in Latin.

Mitch

'Gallia est in partes tres'?

Cerberus

Alas, it was his own tinkering.

If only he had used a good quotation.

Mitch

What'd he say?

Cerberus

And if only his political views were reasonable.

Something about how the traditional parties are a cartel that needs to be broken.

Mitch

17:32

haha! so embarrassing

@Cerberus oh. a disruptor

Cerberus

Yes.

And a bit of a xenophobe, though in a civilised enough way.

He really wants to leave the EU.

Mitch

tear down to build back up? or tear down because explosions are cool?

@Cerberus Can't he go to Aruba or Suriname then?

Cerberus

Mm hard to predict.

@Mitch Heh.

I suppose he could.

But he probably feels that he is the people, or something.

Mitch

Wait, he wants NL to exit?

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

17:35

That just seems unproductive.

Cerberus

Yes, but it's what some right-wing populist parties in Europe want.

They feel they have lost control of their country.

Everything is dictated by the bureaucrats in Brussels, etc.

Like UKIP and the Front National.

Mitch

sure there are all sorts of problems with the EU but wouldn't be easier to fix them? 'Leaving' (as the tidal wave of news the past couple days has it) doesn't really address the problems people thought they were having with EU membership

@Cerberus oh. I thought they were just racist assholes.

Cerberus

It might address a very small set of problems.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think that is a very reasonable concern to have...

that leaving won't address well.

Cerberus

@Mitch Usually more xenophobic than racist, but, yes, also assholes.

@Mitch Yes, to some degree.

But the main parties now also want no more extra competencies for Brussels, or even to take some back.

Mitch

17:38

@Cerberus I don't see much difference between xenophobia and racism. I mean we can philosophize about the abstract distinctions, but in the end (and frankly pretty near the start) they result in the same thing.

Cerberus

But the EU has brought us so many good things, it's stupid to leave just because of a few issues.

Mitch

dickishness

Cerberus

Well, it depends on the situation.

In Holland, there is hardly any racism at all directed at East-Asians.

Mitch

@Cerberus with all the analysis I've heard...

Cerberus

And xenophobic people don't talk about black people much. Immigrants from Suriname, for example, are rarely criticised.

Muslims, however, now get all the criticism.

@Mitch What have you heard?

Mitch

17:40

it seems like, in the creation of the EU, the economic stuff was more of an afterthought/layer on top of the prevent war stuff

Cerberus

Umm.

I would say the economic stuff was and still is the core; they figured the peace thing would follow automatically (which it has done).

Mitch

and that the no war stuff is just not a consideration at all (It's totally understood that there's no fear of it among EU members)

@Cerberus oh.

Cerberus

@Mitch It was a consideration then, but now it no longer is, at least not for most people.

Although some keep telling the populists that you never know.

Mitch

@Cerberus so is racism just xenophobia in someone's face?

Cerberus

Perhaps the main problem is the fact that any European can migrate anywhere within the EU.

Mitch

17:43

@Cerberus well... cough Ukraine cough

Cerberus

@Mitch Racism is about the three 19th-century races, black, while, yellow, red. It's not my favourite theory.

@Mitch That's outside the EU.

Mitch

@Cerberus as an analogy

Cerberus

As in, look what could happen to countries that leave the EU? I suppose.

Mitch

but that is why there should be a push towards getting Russia in the EU. Or NATO. Or something.

What? You say you've never heard of that before?

Cerberus

@Mitch It was tried.

Mitch

17:44

Oh

really?

Cerberus

Sort of.

It was planned.

Eventually.

But first the rest of Eastern Europe had to join.

Mitch

Oh

they stole my idea from me

Cerberus

But, yes, it was hoped that Russia would eventually join both, I believe, twenty years ago.

Mitch

hm

Cerberus

But look at what happened with Turkey.

Mitch

17:46

they probably didn't follow my plan then

Cerberus

Did it become easier to manage because of NATO?

Why don't countries listen to you?

Mitch

my plan, which I haven't made up yet.

which they stole from me in the future

@Cerberus I know!

I'd do it for a nominal fee.

Cerberus

But anyway.

I think what most anti-EU people rage about is immigration.

The Poles than came to western Europe.

Mitch

They're idiots

Cerberus

The Romanians, etc.

Mitch

17:47

the anit-EU people

not the Poles

Cerberus

They steal our jobs, they rob our houses.

Is how it goes.

Mitch

The romanians? I'm not sure what the Poles would say.

Cerberus

And the Poles would not have been allowed to come here if it had not been for the freedom of movement dictated by Brussels.

Mitch

@Cerberus They do all the work that we're not willing to do and will repopulate our future which we are not doing ourselves.

Cerberus

Possibly.

But anyway, that's why Brexit.

Mitch

17:48

@Cerberus The Poles were leaving the UK in droves before the Brexit vote.

Cerberus

But may did come to England.

And Holland, Germany.

Mitch

more people speak Polish in their home in Ireland than Irish

I blame the British

Cerberus

@Mitch And rightly so.

Mitch

@englishstudent I've been looking all over italki and can't find anywhere to find free language conversation. They're all just paid teachers (which I may very well do). I just want to see about doing what you did (it's for free right?).

Cerberus

Mitch

17:54

@Cerberus Among all that data the one thing that I notice is ... wow... no idea so many Germans in England

Cerberus

There are many Germans everywhere...

Mitch

OK also, I would have thought way more South Asians

Cerberus

But they're usually not perceived as trouble-makers or job-stealers, perhaps also because they're often higher educated, as opposed to Eastern-European immigrants.

Another factor is the money that was sent to Greece and southern Europe, partly thanks to the EU.

Mitch

The higher educated ones are the ones to worry about as stealing jobs. They're more likely to also be job- creators.

Cerberus

I'm not sure what you mean?

Mitch

17:56

But net gain, educated or not, statistically an immigrant adds.

Cerberus

Xenophobes usually have below average education.

Which is partly why they fear immigrants from poor countries.

Whether it's realistic or not.

Mitch

Let's say a German with a medical degree comes to the UK for a job. You might think that they are taking the job away from an equally educated UK person.

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

But the effort to recruit the German shows that the hiring manager in the UK couldn't find someone qualified for the high level position.

so the German is actually a better fit for the job.

Cerberus

That happens, sure.

But so what?

Mitch

17:58

If the job is high enough level, they might be in charge of hiring themselves.

Cerberus

Doctors don't vote xenophobic anyway.

Mitch

and since they are better at their job then the corresponding UKer, they will more likely be better at hiring too. (and so likely more jobs in the UK under them)

@Cerberus there's all sorts of education. doctors lawyers engineers business people.

doctors do hire outside of a hospital (assistants, office managers). maybe it's different in the UK I don't know.

@Cerberus because they're educated!

Actually doctors can be jerks too. I'm not so sure they're not xenophobic

Cerberus

But anyway, foreign doctors are not related to the reason why British xenophobes fear immigration so much and are against the EU.

Færd

18:57

yesterday, by Færd

What's a barman called in North America?

Barista.

Or bartender.

Or whatever.

SmokeDetector

19:18

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, mostly dots in body: Mean length of utterance by CSCPNX on english.SE

MetaEd

19:46

@Færd el camarero de bar.

Tonepoet

22:54

@Mitch Are you looking at the language partners section? "Get free language practice by exchanging time teaching your native language for time learning a foreign language."

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…