English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:24

5

A: Odd possessive form of a proper name: Why does Dryden write “Lord Nonsuch his” instead of “Lord Nonsuch’s” but “Bibber’s” instead of “Bibber his”?

The aristocratic usage theory In a comment (now vanished, along with several others that once appeared beneath the original question), a commenter opined that the different ways of handling the possessive of a proper name reflected the diction appropriate to a member of the aristocracy ("Lord No...

Mitch

01:04

@tchrist Oh sure. I 'm not sure where Mari-Lou was going with her claim about Italian specifically. I was just saying that at some point somebody for Italian introduced the 'g' which was not pronounced, like the 'g' in Magdalen is not pronounced. I can't think of anything in Italian which was in Latin, dropped, but reintroduced but still not pronounced. Italian seems to be mostly one-to-one spelling to pronunciation except for 'gl' and '.cch'

tchrist

01:21

Italian has lots of digraphs. GL is neither of those sounds.

And ce is che while gi is J

GL is the Spanish elle or Portuguese LH

Guillotine.

Italian digraphs are very not WYSIWYG

You cannot say that the G is not pronounced.

It certainly is but means something completely different.

They will understand you if you pronounce GL as /j/ so a Y

Færd

02:22

Does anyone know of an online Latin dictionary with pronunciation?

I'm tired of made-up pronunciations of Latin roots in my head.

How do you pronounce specere?

Cerberus

02:43

@Færd I don't believe that's a word...

But Latin pronunciation is actually comparatively easy.

Almost every letter is almost always the same as its IPA symbol.

Exceptions: c is always /k/.

Færd

Oh cool.

Cerberus

Qu is always /kʷ/.

The letter i can be /i/ or /j/.

Færd

> despise (v.)
c. 1300, from Old French despis-, present participle stem of despire "to despise," from Latin despicere "look down on, scorn," from de- "down" (see de-) + spicere/specere "look at"

Cerberus

U can be /u/ or something like /v/ or /w/.

@Færd Ah, well, that is an unattested form.

Færd

Is there a brief manual for some details somewhere?

I suppose Wikipedia.

Cerberus

02:46

Probably.

That would be a good start, Latin pronunciation.

Færd

OK. Thanks.

Cerberus

Any vowel can be long or short, indicated in dictionaries in some places by a macron or the absence thereof.

But we don't normally bother to distinguish between those.

Færd

@Cerberus What's the attested form?

Cerberus

Gn is /ŋn/.

Færd

And why is specere unattested?

Cerberus

02:48

@Færd I believe there is none. Only compounds of this particular verb are used, at least in classical Latin, such as conspicere, despicere, etc.

And spicere/specere is probably what they extrapolate the simplex form to have been.

Færd

Ah, I see.

Cerberus

P.S. If you know Italian pronunciation, it's in many ways close to Latin.

Except for oddities like ci and gi and gl and such.

Færd

Alas.

Cerberus

In Latin, g is always /g/ except before n or m or g.

Then it's /ŋ/.

Færd

Where do I start to learn Latin? Apart from these pronunciation tips?

Cerberus

02:53

So if you imagine Italian pronunciation with most of the odd, specific, rules for certain consonant clusters removed, and add a (much smaller) number of other such rules, then you basically have Latin.

Well, if you want to be serious about it, you need to use a textbook.

Orberg is popular nowadays.

It teaches Latin in Latin.

Færd

Only half-serious. To try my hand at it.

I guess that can't work, can it!

One in English at least.

Cerberus

Færd

That's kind of decipherable.

Almost.

Cerberus

See?

What words do you find hard to figure out?

Færd

Yeah. Has a lot in common with Esperanto too.

Cerberus

02:57

I'm sure if you spent a few minutes studying the text and the image, you could understand every single word.

Adults learn faster.

Færd

@Cerberus quoque

Cerberus

@Færd Yeah, Esperanto took many things from the three big European linguistic branches.

@Færd If you read the entire page, maybe you can guess what the most logical word would be to use in those sentences that have quoque.

It's all trying to be very logical, to use words that you would expect there.

Færd

Peninsula.

tchrist

@Cerberus And we can probably pretend that /kʷ/ is /kw/, eh?

Færd

That's cool. Thanks!

Cerberus

03:00

@Færd Because you know what paeninsula is in English, it's easier for you to guess what insula is, yes, and you also know insular, etc.

@tchrist It's complicated.

tchrist

Hence the pretending.

Cerberus

Page 2...

@tchrist Sure, although some think there was almost no w sound in qu at all in the classical age any more.

Ugly sentence.

tchrist

I know it did eventually go away; I didn't know when.

Cerberus

Nobody knows.

We normally pronounce it as kw now in Latin.

That's all we know for sure.

SBM

07:19

Latin looks a lot like English except for the words

2

SBM

07:32

What does it mean to have jettisoned something in simple terms?

Apparently it seems like the act of discarding something, but I'm not sure if I'm right.

Andrew Leach

08:51

@SBM en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/jettison -- generally it's a deliberate act of rejection rather than simply discarding. That is, not merely "I don't need this any more" but "I have to get rid of this." Think of a hot air balloon cutting ballast loose (or throwing occupants out) in order to gain height.

SBM

@AndrewLeach Thank You

Gigili

Hi! What preposition must be used with "translate" as a verb in the following context: ""Koi" is translated .... (to/into/as) "a non English word" in Persian."

question mark

Andrew Leach

As. As has connotations of comparison/equivalence ("I'm not as ... as he is"). Into indicates transition: you translate a phrase into Persian, but as a particular equivalent. To is unidiomatic with translate.

Gigili

12:53

@AndrewLeach Thank you very much

Matt E. Эллен

13:37

@Cerberus sounds like a sport for the upperclasses

terdon

13:47

@Færd Seems like also to me.

What language is that?

Huh. That's actually Latin? Not a horribly simplified version of it?

Mitch

@Cerberus nice book. author/title? or are all the pages online?

@AndrewLeach 'Can you translate that to Persian?' Idiomatic for me. (into also works)

@terdon tu quoque, Brute?

Bruté

Simon Forsberg

14:17

Hi all. Just a little question regarding this:

11

A: Forward vs Forwards

The OED says this The present distinction in usage between forward and forwards is that the latter expresses a definite direction viewed in contrast with other directions. In some contexts either form may be used without perceptible difference of meaning; the following are examples in which ...

(I might add a comment later)

Is it "Go Forward!" or "Go Forwards!" ?

terdon

@Mitch Please, this is a public chat. I prefer rooster.

@SimonForsberg Depends. If it's just a general exclamation, like Go on or go forth and so on, I'd say go forward. if you're giving someone driving instructions, go forwards.

Although go forwards seems a bit weird.

Matt E. Эллен

I agree, but I don't think go forwards sounds weird

Mitch

@terdon Going forward, that is to say from now on or in the future, we should avoid businessisms.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Not by itself but would you say when the light turns green, go forwards? I think I'd always say go straight or some other thing like that.

Simon Forsberg

@terdon It seems weird to me too. I just can't put my finger on why...

Mitch

14:32

> In American English, however, forward prevails in all senses since Webster (1832) damned forwards as "a corruption."

terdon

I'm guessing it's because we'd normally say something like go straight, just drive, etc.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon well, I guess in a situation where you wouldn't say it it would sound weird...

terdon

@Mitch Might be that then.

Mitch

'forwards' is fine as a direction

Matt E. Эллен

"When I say go forwards, go forwards!"

terdon

14:32

@MattE.Эллен Isn't that an extra s there?

Mitch

"forwards and backwards"

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon no

Mitch

well back and forth, but I think you get it

terdon

Huh

Simon Forsberg

The reason I ask is because the company where I work (in Sweden) started with some slogan that we saw in the office today, where it says "Go forwards!" and I'm wondering if it's correct to say that.

Mitch

14:34

@terdon qui, qui rit, qui?

terdon

I would assume it's correct, for what that's worth, but I find Go forward more natural.

Mitch

@SimonForsberg It's fine.

terdon

Flanders & Swann - Kokoraki.wmv

►

@Mitch Is that how you would have phrased it though? Or would you have gone for "Go forward"?

Simon Forsberg

@Mitch Crap. I was hoping it was wrong.

Mitch

@terdon I wouldn't have said either.

terdon

14:36

True.

Mitch

It sounds weird. But maybe it's not the grammar but ... something else

@SimonForsberg OH, so you want it to be wrong?

2

Then..

terdon

"Move forwards" seems more natural to me, for example. Or even "Look forwards" or something.

Mitch

it sounds terrible.

'Onward' or 'Onwards' sound more natural (either)

(as far as a command to a bunch of people staring at computer monitors and earphones and typing in five windows can be admonished as such)

Matt E. Эллен

Grand device of always moving forwards

> Always go forwards — David Soul

Simon Forsberg

@Mitch Thank you, that's better :P

Mitch

14:41

@terdon man you almost just dragged me in to a youtube rabbit hole. But I will resist!

Onwards!

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon :D I had to learn that for Greek class (but we learned it from a different performer)

terdon

@MattE.Эллен You wha?

Seriously? Wow. That's impressive, actually. I didn't know you were taking modern Greek

Matt E. Эллен

το κοκορακι κικιρικικι

@terdon oh, yeah. cos my girlfriend is Greek

terdon

Ah, yes, I remember you mentioning that. Well, kudos to you, it ain't an easy language.

Mitch

@SimonForsberg googling for 'go forwards' returns all sorts of links... to 'go forward' so I'm guessing the latter is more common. But that doesn't (necessarily) mean it's wrong

Matt E. Эллен

14:45

indeed. sadly I can't currently afford more lessons at the moment

terdon

One of my best friend's girlfriend now speaks fluent Greek. It's a bit of a mixed blessing for him: on the one hand, he can speak to his significant other in his native language which is great, on the other, we can't gossip about her when she's around any more :P

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I feel like there's an extra ki in there

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch I don't think so... let me check

terdon

There isn't

Not in the one I used to sing with my grandparents, anyway.

Mitch

@terdon That can only lead me to the irrevocable conclusion that Greek has an excess of ki to distribute.

terdon

14:46

@Mitch The goddess?

Mitch

Or that greek roosters have a tickle in their throat that makes them go an extra beat

terdon

There's also a Japanese ki, right? What does that mean again?

Matt E. Эллен

the χι distribution, however

terdon

@MattE.Эллен Ouch :P

Matt E. Эллен

:D

@terdon yes. my girlfriend is worried about the same thing :D

terdon

14:51

@MattE.Эллен Great. So learn it and don't tell her for a few months :P

Matt E. Эллен

lol

terdon

A french friend of mine did that. She'd been coming to Greece every summer for years and never let on she could understand us, the horrible thing.

We only caught on when she burst out laughing at a joke and everyone froze and stared at her :P

Mitch

15:06

@terdon girlfriends: insidious until they become invidious

terdon

@Mitch I prefer ATI.

Mitch

ATI? I hardly knew her!

Galois in the Field

Bonjour!

I have come to find a piquant word to use!

Mitch

Any Time Interrogation?

Galois in the Field

Is there a word that expresses 'current fear of something bad that could have happened'?

Mitch

15:09

Albuquerque Technology Incubator?

@GaloisintheField anxiety

a general fear of things that are unknown

Galois in the Field

Anxiety feels like a fear of something that could happen in the future

What about more specific, 'Current fear of something bad that could have happened, that wasn't a known possibility at the time'

Mitch

"I'm anxious about the egg salad sandwiches I made for the picnic. Did they like them? Did they stay out in the sun too long?"

Galois in the Field

Hmmm, I see, if I had consumed the egg before thinking this, that would work

Mitch

@GaloisintheField Good point. No one says "I'm anxious about the outcome of the American Civil War."

But anxiety works for any unknown fear.

Galois in the Field

@Mitch I've said this before

Mitch

15:13

Does fear refer to any particular tie frame?

Galois in the Field

It should be a current fear, that lasted for some reason after everything turned out well

A Chinese friend asked me if such a word exists, and apparently it does in Chinese, she has told me that I seem to react different to Chinese people and she was interested since I seem to have no such word.

Mitch

@GaloisintheField OK, bad example. No one says "I'm afraid you won the Powerball lottery"

Galois in the Field

Oh my, my last sentence went on for a decade!

Mitch

But, considering, it usually messes up peoples lives.

Galois in the Field

@Mitch :P

Does this room teach one to be more witty, or are the members witty before joining?

Mitch

15:16

@GaloisintheField Usually in these cases I would ask 'what is that Chinese word?" and then see if it really means that.

@GaloisintheField I'm pretty sure it's all down hill from here.

Galois in the Field

@Mitch Oh joy!

Mitch

If you're on a bike it's great

Galois in the Field

I love you already tbh

Mitch

blushes

Galois in the Field

I have to go, I wish you all the best!

Apparently the word translated to "after fright" but they are offline now, so I can't ask for the pre-translation, farewell!

terdon

15:20

@Mitch ATI as opposed to NVIDIA. Re: insidious until they become invidious.

Mitch

15:31

@GaloisintheField almost sounds like PTSD, but that would be more like current fears of the unknown that one has because of something that really did happen.

@terdon Oh. Duh. It would have helps if I had understood what ATI was.

SBM

@Mitch ATI : Array Technology Inc makers of Radeon graphics cards

That company was bought by AMD

Færd

16:10

What's a barman called in North America?

Or generally, a barperson, if that doesn't sound weird.

SmokeDetector

16:43

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: What is an idiom for overcoming a life obstacle? by juan on english.SE

Cerberus

17:23

@MattE.Эллен Not at all, anyone can learn Latin!

@Mitch It's Ørberg's Lingua Latina per se Illustrata.

Officially it's not online, but you can just increment the 001s in the url (two instances) and see how far you'll get.

Hans Ørberg

Hans Henning Ørberg (April 21, 1920 – February 17, 2010) was born in Denmark and received a master's degree in English, French and Latin at the University of Copenhagen. He dedicated a great part of his life (1946 to 1952 and 1961 to 1989) to the teaching of these languages in schools in Denmark; 1963-1989 at Grenaa Gymnasium. == Career == From 1953 to 1961 he worked in the Naturmetodens Sproginstitut, an institute where the languages are taught according to the "natural method" of learning. While there he created a new course in Latin: Lingua Latina secundum naturae rationem explicata published...

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus :D I meant that quoque sounds like croquet

Cerberus

18:05

Ahah!

Which is a very easy and casual sport that you can set up anywhere!

Færd

18:38

> Almost within hours of its release on March 15, our report was greeted by what can only be described as hysteria. The US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, denounced it and demanded that the UN repudiate it.

> The newly elected secretary general, António Guterres, quickly and publicly called for ESCWA to withdraw the report from its website, and when Rima Khalaf, the head of the commission, resisted, Guterres insisted. Rather than comply, Khalaf resigned. Soon thereafter, the report was withdrawn from the commission’s website, despite its having been published with a disclaimer noting that it represents the views of its authors and not necessarily that of ESCWA or the UN.

(from here)

And this is their report: Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid.

If it's too long, you can just read the Executive Summary part (about 5 pages).

And if you happened to know of any solid, detailed response that challenges the report, I'd be glad to have the link.

terdon

19:02

@Færd I doubt such a thing is possible. Only the US and Israel itself would object to what that report (seems to—I only read the executive summary) claims.

And that wonderful Israeli sleight of hand whereby any criticism of Israel becomes criticism of Jews and, by extension, antisemitic never ceases to amaze me.

Færd

@terdon An old trick. Everyone uses it to escape criticism.

terdon

A very old trick, unfortunately, yes.

And hated by all the Jews I know. Then again, I don't tend to hang out with Zionists, for obvious reasons.

Færd

Does it (the trick) have a name?

terdon

Hmm. Don't know.

Færd

Where you dissolve yourself in a larger group to excite them (and others) and make them offended by criticism that's specifically leveled at you.

Cerberus

19:18

@terdon Yeah, that's kind of annoying.

Then again, there is perhaps one small kernel of truth in it.

That is, why does everyone always criticise Israel so much more than other countries?

terdon

@Cerberus No there isn't. Yes, very often criticism of Israel is fueled by anti-semitism. That, however, does not imply that any criticism of Israel should be looked at in that light.

Cerberus

Why is it picked out over e.g. Jordan, Bangladesh, England?

terdon

@Cerberus Uhm. Because it is a shockingly violent and oppressive religious regime?

Cerberus

@terdon But aren't most countries just as bad or worse?

Claiming that criticism of Israel must be anti-Semitism of course remains a fallacy.

terdon

@Cerberus Not really, no. Israel is, for example, constantly flouting international treaties and continuing with its settler program. It also tends to go around killing people a good deal more than average.

Cerberus

19:21

And e.g. Indonesia isn't?

Or a hundred other countries?

terdon

It is the only nuclear power that has been involved in (officially) expansionist wars in the last few decades. At least it has so far shown restraint and hasn't used any of its bombs.

@Cerberus Is it? How?

(honest question, I don't know the first thing about Indonesia)

In any case, the most damning thing about Israel is its disproportionate reaction to violence perpetrated against it and refusal to countenance any criticism of violence perpetrated by it.

Cerberus

@terdon Well, it has oppressed Timor in the past, and it is still oppressing Moluccans, Paupuas, and probably a host of other second-class citizens.

terdon

@Cerberus Oppression is one thing. Going out and grabbing the land of your neighbors in the night is quite another.

Færd

I don't know if Israel kills more people than the average country with as much power as it has. Especially if we count in indirect engagement and fueling wars between other countries.

Cerberus

@terdon That's exactly what they did with the Moluccan islands, Timor, western New Guinea, etc.

terdon

19:25

@Færd I was talking about the ration of Israeli to Palestinian deaths. Last time I looked into this it was around one Israeli per 10 Palestinians.

Cerberus

@terdon And Indonesia's reactions are proportionate?

terdon

@Cerberus They may very well have. As I said, I don't know the first thing about that part of the world. Admittedly, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has gotten a lot more press.

Cerberus

Indeed, I think the press attention is one part of the issue.

Another is that we see Israel as a western, advanced country.

terdon

Exactly. Which they are, in so many ways, and that makes it even worse.

sumelic

Does anyone want to cast a third delete vote on What is the plural form of “phoenix”? I don't think it's such a terrible question on its own, but the accepted answer is quite bad in my opinion (just lists two forms with no explanation; cites Wiktionary, which is not a very trustworthy source, for the dubious-looking invariant plural) and the question is closed so nobody can submit a better answer.

Cerberus

19:27

But perhaps one part of the issue is that it gets extra bad press from Muslim countries bacause they don't like Jews.

Then again, it is a vicious circle.

Færd

@Cerberus Why, Jews in general? Or Zionists?

I think Israel and some of the Islamic states in the region consider each other a threat.

terdon

@Cerberus Um no. It gets bad press because it goes around killing people.

@sumelic Hang on, since when can we vote to delete posts with a positive score!? Is it because it's closed?

Cerberus

@sumelic Indeed, the answers are bad. But I think a good answer is possible, explaining the rationalia behind the possible plural forms in detail.

Perhaps the question need to be reopened.

sumelic

@Cerberus Well, I wanted to post an answer and voted to reopen, but nobody else did. Now I'm ready to just get rid of it.

terdon

@sumelic What would you have answered?

Cerberus

19:31

@Færd When you see lots of news items and newspaper articles about people who fall into both categories, you might begin to aequate the two...

@terdon Certainly, but how high would it score in a list of people killed per year?

terdon

@Cerberus That's the bloody problem though!

Cerberus

Wouldn't 100 countries score higher?

terdon

@Cerberus Hmm. 100? Probably not. But I don't know.

Name one other country that could get away with openly bombing a US military vessel though.

Cerberus

@terdon Any European country?

sumelic

@terdon I haven't done all the research, but I wanted to describe the origins of the various plural forms ("phoenixes" usual English plural rule, "phoenices" from Latin/Greek, "phoenix" apparently from zero-plural as in game animals) and some information about their frequencies if I could find it. Maybe some quotes as well showing the usage of authors.

terdon

19:35

@sumelic Damn. Sounds interesting. I'd be willing to reopen.

sumelic

@terdon I see. Well, I'll be happy enough if it's either reopened or deleted, so I appreciate that.

Færd

Maybe it's also because of the financial and political power that is behind Israel, namely the US. And the vicious Greater Israel plan to expand the state from Nile to Euphrates.

terdon

@sumelic Done

Cerberus

> The Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor estimated the number of deaths during the occupation from famine and violence to be between 90,800 and 202,600 and they included between 17,600 and 19,600 violent deaths or disappearances, out of a 1999 population of approximately 823,386. The truth commission held Indonesian forces responsible for about 70% of the violent killings.

terdon

@Cerberus Yeah, that's the kind of ratio I was talking about.

Cerberus

19:36

Those numbers are far higher than the Palestinian deaths.

And that's only 1 out of many Indonesian islands...

terdon

@Cerberus So? I don't understand why you keep bringing that up. How are the crimes of stateB in any way relevant to a discussion of the crimes of stateA?

Cerberus

Because I'm trying to figure out why the crimes of the Israeli government get so much more attention than those of other, equally bad governments.

The mere number of deaths can't be the entire explanation.

terdon

@Cerberus Because the Israeli/Palestinian issue is "sexy". Why else?

Færd

Well, that's the current situation.

terdon

It's been the most important and publicized international relations issue since the second world war.

Cerberus

19:39

I think the idea that Indonesia is "barbaric" and Israel ought to be "civilised" is part of the explanation, with respect to the western public opinion.

@terdon Yes, but why?

terdon

That too, sure.

Cerberus

It is a minor conflict that affects fairly few people.

But then why don't 'we' hate America more than Israel?

They've killed far more people.

terdon

@Cerberus 1) After the second world war, the Jews as a people were, for excellent reasons, very much at the forefront of everyone's minds. The implicit current of anti-semitism that had been the norm for so many centuries was challenged. Which is absolutely good and proper.

Cerberus

Yes...

terdon

2) Israel made one hell of a splash. 3) It is still a buzzword in US politics and no US politician has been able to get elected without toeing the Israeli line.

Cerberus

19:40

I don't understand 2.

skull petrol

^

terdon

@Cerberus Very good marketing, powerful political lobbies etc.

UN resolutions and all that jazz.

Cerberus

And I don't understand the relevance of 3: how does this affect e.g. Persian or European public opinion?

@terdon But shouldn't that have the opposite effect?

terdon

@Cerberus because it does. Whether you like it or not, the US's position on any subject is very important geopolitically.

Cerberus

Umm not really?

terdon

19:42

@Cerberus No, it has the effect of making one hell of a splash.

Cerberus

It is an outlier, and the whole issue (Israel criticised very severely) does not apply to America.

terdon

@Cerberus yes really. One of the dubious perks of being a superpower.

Cerberus

I don't think I understand your point.

skull petrol

Fact: Einstein was offered the presidential position of Israel.

Cerberus

That might have been nice.

terdon

19:44

@Cerberus Oh yes, of course it is, but a very, very noisy one. The US is the country whose politics are best known to non citizens. So things that are important in the US tend to be heard about even outside the US.

Compare that to the political problems of, for example, Spain or Zimbabwe.

Cerberus

@terdon I still don't understand. The phaenomenon I'm trying to investigate does not apply to America, it doesn't exist there (substantially).

terdon

@Cerberus I am explaining that part of the reason the I/P issue is much better known than other similar ones is that it is so important in US politics.

Cerberus

Better known?

terdon

Yes

Cerberus

The issue is known because of its own dynamic, I think.

terdon

19:46

I am, perforce, referring mainly to countries in Europe and the Americas.

Cerberus

Why?

terdon

Because those are the countries I can speak to.

Cerberus

I am referring to those countries where the issue is most clearly observed, in Europe and the Muslim world.

terdon

Whose politics I can speak to I mean. I simply don't know how well known the I/P issue is in Swaziland.

Cerberus

But you do know how it is in e.g. Iran.

Or France.

terdon

19:48

I was referring to how famous the issue is in those countries.

Cerberus

It is indeed well known.

Færd

Why do you put the whole Muslim world in one category?

Cerberus

But so is e.g. the Syrian crisis.

terdon

Which is why so many people object to Israel's behavior. Not necessarily because it is the worst among all states, but because it is the worst they know about.

Cerberus

@Færd Because I think most public opinions there, as in Europe, are pretty anti-Israel?

terdon

19:50

@Færd In the specific question of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it is reasonable to lump the Muslim world together since, with the slight exception of Turkey, their external policy and public opinion of Israel are very similar.

Færd

@Cerberus I don't see that. Some Arab/Islamic states are becoming allies with Israel to be able to stand up to other Arab/Islamic states of the region.

terdon

Note that we're also lumping all of Europe together and for the same reason.

Cerberus

@terdon Indeed, but then the question is, why do they know so much about it? And also, there are other matters they know much about, like the Syrian war or Ukraine: why don't they have similarly critical opinions on those countries?

terdon

@Færd Heh, now why are you putting Arabs and Muslims in the same category? :P

Cerberus

@Færd Sure, a few governments do that. But not public opinions, I believe.

Færd

19:51

I expressly divided them.

terdon

@Færd Ah, OK, misread the slash.

Cerberus

At any rate, I was of course generalising.

terdon

@Cerberus They know so much about it for the reasons I mentioned above. And they don't know anywhere near as much about either Syria or Ukraine. Not even in the same ball park.

Cerberus

@Færd But in Holland, where most people are anti-Israel, the Turks and Moroccans are even more anti that most other groups.

@terdon Perhaps also because the conflict has been lingering for so long.

terdon

Precisely

And because it's much simpler in some ways.

Cerberus

19:52

Still, I don't feel that that explains it all.

terdon

Well, at first glance, anyway.

Cerberus

I also think there may be an ethnic component.

Just as between e.g. Shiites and Sunnites (although that is more complicated, is it ethnic anyway, etc.).

Færd

@Cerberus Sometimes public opinion follows the regime's policies. And sometimes the state's policies reflect the public opinion. In this case the policy of Saudi making friends with Israel and speak ill of Iran reflects the fact that the hatred between Shiites and Sunnis can surpass the hatred between Muslims and Zionists.

terdon

@Cerberus I dunno. I hope not, but I can't be sure. My personal position is largely molded my my father's experiences. He left his parent's house in the last years of high school to live with a Jewish family and has very close ties to Jewish culture. On the other hand, he spent a few years living in the west bank and got a masters in middle eastern studies, focusing on the I/P conflict.

Cerberus

@Færd Sure, that is sometimes possible. But that doesn't mean that the Saudi population still doesn't hate Israel.

terdon

19:55

So absolutely not an anti semite in any way, but very much pro Palestinian and that's how I was raised.

Cerberus

@terdon Indeed, I think the left in Europe, which is probably the most anti-Israel group, is certainly not acting out of anti-Semitism.

At least not that I have ever observed them to be so.

:36370980 Corrected!

Færd

@Cerberus I honestly don't know if they do or don't.

Cerberus

I do!

Færd

About the crowd or the elite?

terdon

@Cerberus How?

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