English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

03:15

@Lawrence I know, but ...

@Lawrence ... that's not the message that you replied to at first. :)

@Cerberus Isn't that obvious? Is that what the American/Freudian school really denies?

@Cerberus It's not something a Farsi speaker normally discerns, but yeah. The two pronunciations of the word کون (meaning ass) on this page have two different /k/s, the first think and the second thick. They have totally different feels and are (or can be) used in different situations.

English /k/ is mostly like our think /k/; I've heard thick ones too, though. (Standard) Arabic /k/ is also mostly thin.

But Turkish has both I guess, maybe @M.A.R. can attest to that.

Oh, I forgot to link to the page: forvo.com/word/%DA%A9%D9%88%D9%86/#fa

@Mitch That's interesting! This is a chaotic world, though. Something as insignificant as a war can change the course.

Cerberus

03:37

@Færd To some degree, that is what they deny. Their approach is to portray almost anything we consider a conscious decision to be mostly or wholly based on subconscious, often unwanted workings of the brain.

Færd

That's what I guessed you meant, but there was no harm in asking.

@Mitch And look at China's growth: it's almost linear between now and 2030, not slacking or slowing down.

Cerberus

Yeah, I'd be a bit sceptical.

Færd

Generally yeah, but I have no idea about this particular issue.

@Cerberus Well, as I'm sure you know, unwanted and subconscious are not the same. And there probably are levels of subconscious the workings of which are easily traceable and levels that are more subtle or hidden (that's the picture I have of it). Maybe they use subconscious as an umbrella term for them all, not to mysterize the origins of our every behavior.

Cerberus

03:54

Absolutely.

About everything but your last sentence.

Færd

Speaking of chaos, this is awesome:

A visualization of chaos: 41 triple pendulums with very slightly different initial conditions https://t.co/CTiABFVWHW

Tweeted by fermatslibrary on March 5, 2017 at 2:15 PM

Lawrence

05:28

@Færd You wrote three lines consecutively. They were related. My reply could only point to one of them. I pointed to the start of that trio.

Hugo

06:24

Top tip! The OED is asking for words related to parenting, and if you follow the link from public.oed.com/the-language-of-parenting-mumsnet-access you can search the OED for free, presumably until the end of this month. The list of submitted words is interesting too, add any if you have any! mumsnet.com/Talk/what_were_reading/…

englishstudent

08:00

@Tonepoet Do you have a link? If yes, then I will be happy to take a look.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent I do.

englishstudent

Oh great. Thanks tonepoet.

looks

Tonepoet

It's probably worth noting that at least the Merriam-Webster key isn't perfectly consistent across all editions of their dictionaries, so I'm not sure exactly how helpful it'll be.

englishstudent

08:15

@Tonepoet It is helpful to me. The page you link has IPA and AHD transcription system symbols so I can compare them easily now. By the way, are all those all symbols that AHD has? The list looks quite short.

I don't know. I could be wrong.

I also found this post on the internet if you interested in reading discussions: forum.wordreference.com/threads/…

Tonepoet

@englishstudent I am not sure. Keep in mind that the A.H.D. and Merriam-Webster systems are specifically designed for English, and American English at that though.

englishstudent

But they are talking about Longman Dictionary, hmm so I don't know how relevant that would be to our discussion.

@Tonepoet yeah.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Longman uses I.P.A. according to the webpage I showed you. It's of no special relevance as a result.

Pandya

@AndrewLeach Is it worth to visit this question? Or the answers to this are enough or it is worth to ask this question on ELL? (If I'm having samr question)

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Yeah the page is missing these symbols I found on AHD I have. Here is the screenshot I just took:

It is from AHD.

@Tonepoet Oh never mind that's only a sample in your link. So it is not complete obviously.

Andrew Leach

08:26

@Pandya My comment on the duplicate should be sufficient. No: it's not worth visiting the duplicate (if you can see it); the duplicate is closable because of insufficient research. If you find the existing answers are not good enough, by all means ask a new question referencing that one and explaining why they are not good enough, together with your own research.

However it seems OK to me. Rules are external, principles are internal.

Pandya

@AndrewLeach ok. Thanks!

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Well that's unfortunate. I hope it can still be of some help.

englishstudent

Yeah I know. I will search for a better page/guide like that too and see if I can come up with anything good.

M.A.R.

08:48

@Færd Turkish has everything O.O

key_asdfg

09:28

What is this guy saying here after "the same for notebooks" til "little baby so dim"? youtu.be/oRCXYXszi8U?t=39

Andrew Leach

I think he's saying "instead of a full-size DIMM you get a little baby DIMM" -- that is, memory chips are smaller.

M.A.R.

@key_asdfg It's a little maybe so dim

What wait, did I look at the right moment?

Andrew Leach

He then goes on to talk about how you find the right memory, so dim (from auto-recognition) is likely to be DIMM.

And what he's holding looks like a desktop-size DIMM.

M.A.R.

Oh, right

key_asdfg

Ah, that DIMM....I got it, thanks!

Andrew Leach

09:33

Dual In-line Memory Module, IIRC.

Automatic subtitles usually work, but that speaker was bound to cause problems.

M.A.R.

My speaker makes weird noises lately and I haven't got to fix it

key_asdfg

But hey, he says something like "so DIMM?"

M.A.R.

They're not that distracting or concerning

key_asdfg

He says something like "but the main difference is being that instead of a full-sized DIMM and its little baby... so DIMM." Does it make sense?

M.A.R.

'It's a little baby so DIMM', yeah, that seems like what he says

key_asdfg

09:37

Is it natural English? DIMM sould be a noun

Ah,

I got it, it means "so the main difference is DIMM."

Thanks!

Andrew Leach

@key_asdfg I think it's a "little baby-size DIMM".

key_asdfg

I thought he was saying something like "it's a little baby that's so [adjective like cute]."

at first

M.A.R.

Well yeah, that's what the intonation suggests

Andrew Leach

I think he's only talking to Americans. I find him rather difficult to understand.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach This makes sense. Or 'baby-sized'

key_asdfg

09:42

@Andrew Are you sure? on my speaker I can hear the "o" sound in "so" clearly. It doesn't sound like "sized"

Andrew Leach

Hmm. Perhaps it's "baby, like so, DIMM" -- like so as in thus. But his excitable speech is horrible for this sort of thing.

key_asdfg

By the way how do you transcribe the way he said DIMM? He said it like DIMMMMA.

And how does he sound btw? Is it common for people to talk like that?

Andrew Leach

He released the M rather extravagantly. I wouldn't bother transcribing the ma at the end at all.

key_asdfg

Is it geek-ish at all?

I see.

Andrew Leach

If you've been given this as a transcription exercise, your teacher is ... um ...

key_asdfg

09:48

Oh I chose this video myself.

Is he that weird?

Andrew Leach

He's American. Weirdness is relative: everyone thinks everyone else is weird.

I can't spell wierd. I always type it wrong.

M.A.R.

Heh

Andrew Leach

I before E.

M.A.R.

I was wierding weird a couple of months ago

@AndrewLeach I believe you spell wierd perfectly

Andrew Leach

Yes. Weird, isn't it?

M.A.R.

09:51

Wired.

key_asdfg

I just don't have any idea what kind of category people speak like him typically fall into. I mean you have some categories of image of people you've had from observing your school classmates, right? typically geek-ish, mean girl etc...I just don't have any idea because I've never been in school in an English speaking country.

M.A.R.

@key_asdfg The category of people that want to make an enthusiastic YouTube video

key_asdfg

Ah so his speech style is just a typical video host speech.

M.A.R.

@Mitch That proves [word-choice] is the source of your problems.

Shtoopid meta tags

Andrew Leach

@key_asdfg It's enthusiastic, excitable even; he seems knowledgeable on his subject. He wants to get that across. Unfortunately his enthusiasm gets in the way.

key_asdfg

09:59

I see. By the way, what kind of British accent would you recommend to others to pick up? I'm interested in picking up one, but there's a lot and don't know which to choose.

Oh, one more question, do a lot of staff at electronic stores speak like the guy in the video?

Andrew Leach

I've never encountered anyone who speaks like the guy in the video. But then I'm British.

As for an accent, "standard" would be best.

Unfortunately, even the BBC don't use it much on the English-language World Service.

terdon

@AndrewLeach I think Canadian, actually. Not that I can tell from the accent, but the video was posted by some Canadian tech store so it seems likely.

Andrew Leach

@terdon American, North American, tomato, tomato.

terdon

Heh. Careful who you say that to.

Andrew Leach

shrug

key_asdfg

10:15

Do you mean BBC newscasters speak with an American accent?

What other variants of British accents can normal British people tell apart from each other?

Andrew Leach

@key_asdfg No, although Neil Nunes is West Indian. But there are Scots and other exotic variations.

terdon

@key_asdfg Britain is fascinating in that it seems to change accents every 10 kilometers or so. I have no idea how many accents you can count in British English but it will be several dozen, for sure.

Andrew Leach

Most Brits will be able to tell Highland Scots, Lowland Scots, Northern Irish, Southern Irish, Merseyside, Tyneside, Yorkshire, Cheshire/Lancashire, Midlands, Welsh, London/Estuary, "Rural" and "Standard". Maybe more.

terdon

A tour of the British Isles in accents.

►

key_asdfg

I know of working class accent and scottland one and the queen's one. What's it called....But anyway I can't tell them apart.

terdon

10:20

Oh wow. That video's kinda fun, actually

key_asdfg

@Andrew Wow that's a lot!

Can they name each of those?

terdon

@key_asdfg Accents are very important in the UK.

Your accent places you in a social and geographical context.

key_asdfg

@Andrew What you mean by standard British accent is not RP, right?

terdon

And the variation is truly fascinating. Some of them are hardly recognizable as English at all. I'm a native speaker of English, for example, but I honestly cannot understand people with strong Glaswegian or Geordie accents.

I remember listening to a conversation on a bus once and it took me several minutes even to figure out that they were speaking English and not some other language.

Matt E. Эллен

Aye, Geordie and Glaswegian are quite exclusive accents when they're strong

Andrew Leach

10:24

@key_asdfg Well, RP is very stylised. Ay tulld him to git orff may hawss.

Standard is less than that.

key_asdfg

That's a relief...I wonder if you meant RP because I looked at its Wiki article and it says it's the standard English accent.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен I wonder at what point you start calling them dialects instead. I have no idea how much the vocabulary syntax or grammar change since I can't understand a word out of their mouths.

englishstudent

@terdon That's a good point. So if someone has a think Indian accent can that put them in a lower social stratum? Just thought I'd ask.

key_asdfg

@terdon Does the narrator in the video you posted have the standard accent?

terdon

@key_asdfg He changes his accent to that of each region he mentions. That's the point of the video.

So that wasn't one accent, it was many.

@englishstudent You'll have to ask a Brit. I don't know where Indian would fall. But yes, accent is (or certainly was, anyway) a very strong indication of social class. The aristocracy all spoke/speak with RP for example, very different from your working class accents like cockney.

englishstudent

10:32

True.

key_asdfg

Got it, but which is the standard accent?

Did he skip the standard one?

englishstudent

@key_asdfg Your written English is quite good by the way.

key_asdfg

Oh thanks! I'm flattered~

Andrew Leach

@key_asdfg The video starts in "modern RP", before the map pans. Standard is slightly less clipped than his "RP".

key_asdfg

How can I know if some random youtuber I found have the standard accent? Which region would he/she be from if he/she had the standard accent? Do Cambridge people have the standard accent?

terdon

10:40

I don't think any region has the standard, right @AndrewLeach? It's something people pick up in boarding schools and universities.

Like the clap.

key_asdfg

What do you mean by clap?

Andrew Leach

@terdon Neither of those (none of those three) applied to my parents, and they were "standard" -- despite one coming London and the other from the Medway towns. And my accent, though tinged with Sussex, is "standard", I think.

And of the three, I went to university.

@key_asdfg Clap 2 : en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/clap

key_asdfg

Do most celebrities speak with the standard accent? Does Adele have it for example?

Interview with Adele - "The bigger your career gets, the smaller your life gets" | Skavlan

►

Færd

@Lawrence Well, the important thing is that I get your point. And I'd asked about it in this very room ...

Dang the search function ...

Found it:

Nov 30 '16 at 4:31, by Færd

> I was to have done my homework yesterday.

> I was to have done my homework yesterday.
I thought it could mean I was supposed to have finished it before yesterday.
But, apparently, it means I was supposed to do it yesterday. So it's equivalent to
I was to do my homework yesterday.
So what is the point of the perfect infinitive in the first sentence?
Maybe they're basically the same, but the first one bears the suggestion that I didn't do my homework yesterday.

key_asdfg

And which is more natural to say: "one has a/the standard accent?"

Færd

10:49

To which Snails replied:

> That would be the meaning if you moved done over a bit: I was to have my homework done yesterday. (Although I don't imagine this exact sentence is uttered very often.)
Well, maybe not before yesterday.

Andrew Leach

@key_asdfg Sort of. It fluctuates between Standard (which I think is what she would normally use) and Estuary (because she wants the common touch).

Færd

Basically she didn't sympathize with my impression.

terdon

@AndrewLeach I was being facetious about the schools. My point was more that to my knowledge, the standard accent isn't associated with any particular region but only with "social class" and, more importantly, educational level.

Andrew Leach

@terdon Probably. I think both my sets of grandparents aspired to be better than "working-class" and my parents achieved that.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Oh, hey, I wasn't making any commentary on your social class. Only on whether the standard accent is a geographical or socioeducational characteristic.

Færd

10:52

@Lawrence It can happen with the future perfect too, for me at least:

> - Do you think he'll come to the meeting?
> - No, he will have forgotten.

Andrew Leach

@terdon No: but it's easier to relate one's personal experiences.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Of course. Just wanted to clarify I wasn't taking pot shots at you or anything.

Andrew Leach

Asperger's. I wouldn't have noticed even if you were :-)

terdon

@key_asdfg Not really. The standard accent isn't all that standard. Most "celebrities" just have the accent of wherever they grew up. David Attenborough would be a very good example, by the way. So try watching some BBC nature documentaries. They are absolutely brilliant anyway and you can hear a nice accent.

@AndrewLeach Silver lining, huh? :P

Andrew Leach

@terdon I thought about David Attenborough, but his speech has changed as he's got older. 15 years ago, perhaps. Was that the first "Planet Earth" series?

terdon

10:55

That wasn't very clear @key_asdfg. I meant that celebrities, just like everyone else, have the accent they grew up with (usually). And that Davit Attenborough is a great example of the Standard Accent (or close enough, anyway, Andrew will know better).

@AndrewLeach I think that might be even older. Blue Planet was around then, wasn't it?

key_asdfg

@terdon thanks I didn't know about those documentary series. I'll be sure to check them out.

terdon

Oh wow. Probably the best nature documentaries ever made. Anywhere. Ever.

Andrew Leach

He's now 90, with a veritable alphabet of post-nominal letters.

terdon

Check out Planet Earth, Blue Planet and BBC Life (the last one is absolutely stunning)

@AndrewLeach Which he so richly deserves. I have enormous respect for that man.

Andrew Leach

Sir David Frederick Attenborough OM CH CVO CBE FRS FRSB FLS FZS FSA. Four honours before the academic stuff.

key_asdfg

11:00

@terdon I'll do so; thanks for the recommendation! gotta go now thanks everyone!

Mitch

13:53

@terdon I am surprised about that but only in English. It's pretty obvious in all the other languages I know.

@AndrewLeach weird. I pronounce both those 'tomato's the same.

@AndrewLeach I really thought it was the other way round, that she always speaks estuary, at home and in interviews/onstage.

Andrew Leach

I can't see a native Estuary speaker slipping into RP by accident; that speech takes quite a bit of effort. However a faux Estuary accent could conceivably revert by accident.

@Mitch And yes, that just proves my point :-)

Mitch

14:11

@AndrewLeach so then you hear her speak standard sometimes? To my (American) ears, she's one of the few British celebrities (not in a movie) that is noticeably always in the Cockney direction with her "twi 'er" account and speaking with her "muvver"

Andrew Leach

14:34

@Mitch She lapses into RP in the video posted earlier.

Only for a short time, but more than once.

terdon

Hmm. I heard some of that, perhaps. She comes across as a native estuary speaker to my untrained ear.

Mitch

14:53

@AndrewLeach code switching? Wikipedia says:

englishstudent

Planet Earth is a good series. I have watched it.

Mitch

> Born in Tottenham, north London, and raised in West Norwood, south London, Adele has a working-class London accent

englishstudent

Can I say "I'm having a fling with xyz book"? or will it look awkward?

Mitch

not that wikipedia is any kind of authority.

it's almost like anybody can say anything there.

@englishstudent it's awkward because everybody knows xyz fancies rst.

but seriously, you only 'have a fling' with a person. It just doesn't work with an object, metaphorically or not.

maybe with extreme metaphor.

englishstudent

What's rst? Retail Sales Tax?

Ah ok.

Mitch

14:56

first you tell me what xyz is

englishstudent

"Just a random thing"

Like "abc" etc.

Like what we write at the end of a letter.

I was trying to be vague.

Mitch

oh. rst = "just a random thing, but not the same as xyz or any other variable, otherwise it would be really awkward"

englishstudent

haha

ok.

Mitch

haha

englishstudent

So why can't we have a fling with say a 'book'?

Why does it have to be a 'person'?

Mitch

14:58

there's no "have to" in language, just "that's the way it is"

englishstudent

"fling" doesn't necessarily have a sexual connotation, strictly speaking. But do correct me if I am wrong.

I mean it is used that way I know but...

Mitch

'have a fling' just happens to be specific to people.

englishstudent

Oh. okay. Thank you.

Much obliged.

Mitch

I guess a speculative explanation would be that even though 'have a fling with' means specifically 'having an affair with', it is too specific to be used as 'am spending a wonderful time with' even though they are somewhat similar.

@englishstudent it's not referring to sex acts, but more of the vague 'affair' (implying sex, but does not mean sex)

englishstudent

@Mitch Yeah but that doesn't make sense. If two people are seeing each other briefly and both are attracted towards each other then yuh huh it means sex.

I'm a newbie to sex but I don't know. I'm not a native speaker either.

Mitch

15:03

but to say "I am having an affair with the book 'Capital in the 21st Century'" is really awkward too, meaning that you are surreptitiously having amorous relations with a really boring academic book.

englishstudent

haha

OK

Wow that's a good explanation. Very straightforward.

well "having an affair" is apparent but I wasn't sure about "fling"

Mitch

@englishstudent I'd say a 'fling' is a very short affair.

It could grow into an affair

Matt E. Эллен

also, flings are short, whereas affairs can span a long time, so they're not exactly the same. perhaps "flings" are a subset of "affairs"

jinx!

Mitch

adultery is not implied, but is often the case.

Matt E. Эллен

what? who told you?

Mitch

15:08

@englishstudent I think it must mean sex was had. otherwise they're just 'interested in each other'.

englishstudent

@Mitch Yes but people can be in an open relationship too, so not necessarily adultery.

Mitch

also fling and affair are both scandalous, even moreso if adulterous (it's not like in the west everybody is OK with anything, the partner who is not involved in the affair/fling isn't particularly happy about it if they find out, even if they're French)

haha. France.

englishstudent

@Mitch Ok I don't understand this sentence "sex was had". What does it mean? I mean its English I can't comprehend, I'm afraid.

Mitch

@englishstudent uh yeah I guess. I think the media overplays that. makes it sound like people are doing it all the time and everybody is OK with it. Sure for some people it works out, but I don't think it is anywhere as common as TV makes it out to be.

englishstudent

Yes true. I agree.

That's a good point. swears at media.

Andrew Leach

15:13

@Mitch People raised in West Norwood should not have a working-class London accent! It's a "leafy suburb".

Mitch

@englishstudent yes, I was being a little weird with that sentence. You don't often see 'sex' as a subject in a passive like that (if at all ever) I was personifying it by transforming it from "people had sex" ('sex' acts like a noun there and I just flipped it)

englishstudent

Ah I see. okay.

Mitch

@englishstudent When people are just off the plane here in the US, I feel like pointing out to them that the US is not like in the movies, there's no gunfights in the city center with commandos ziplining across the open air mall, corvettes crashing through the windows at the 45th floor of a skyscraper to land on the roof of the neighboring skyscraper and then parachute off with the USB drive embedded in a synthetic diamond as big as your fist.

Well, except maybe in Times Square.

englishstudent

lel

You forgot to write about love triangles and all that by the way. In movies those things are common too.

But action yeah that I'm aware. It is not like that there of course.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach She also went to performing arts school, right? But then if she were 'jafaking' or faking cockney that would be pretty condescending don't you think?

@englishstudent exactly. yes people are more prone to divorce and having affairs, but that's relative.

englishstudent

15:21

@Mitch Ah. That sucks.

Andrew Leach

@Mitch Yup.

englishstudent

@Mitch Fast and the Furious I'm guessing right?

Mitch

But back to your book, I can see saying, but only in the most jocular or witty attempt, 'I'm having a fling with this book' if the context were something like "I've been reading war and peace and it's great and all but I saw this novella in the book shop, and just looking at the reviews on the back, I had to read it right away"

wow, that was a little creepy.

Cerberus

0

Q: Was the -s in Athens originally the plural -s?

In Greek and Latin, some cities, like Athens and Thebes, are pluralia tantum, that is, they are always plural. In English, on the other hand, both names are singular, at least in modern English. It has, however, been suggested that the English -s was originally a plural -s, as a loan translation ...

And no research! Muwahaha.

englishstudent

@Mitch It is odd, having a fling with a book doesn't seem odd to me. Maybe I'm thinking in only "enjoyment" sense. Like a platonic relationship with a book. Pfft. Whatever that means.

Mitch

15:25

@englishstudent No one thinks of those as good things by themselves (they cause problems), but the idea of open relationship (the spouse is aware of and actually approves of the affair) is supposedly a way to avoid those problems. (I'm just realaying what I've heard about it, I'm not really sure how it is supposed to work)

englishstudent

But I got my answer. Thanks a bunch!

Mitch

@englishstudent There are no exact synonyms. fling is not an exact synonym for 'enjoy' or 'like a lot' even though they are nearby. So when you read a list of synonyms, it is not necessary that you can just exchange one for the other without thought.

englishstudent

@Mitch Yes I understand. Sounds very complicated and stressful.

terdon

@Cerberus Wait they were plural in Ancient Greek? I guess Thebes was, yes, but Athens as well?

Cerberus

@terdon Yes, though not always.

Mitch

15:27

@Cerberus Are you talking about the Athen in Greece, the one in Georgia, or both Athens?

Cerberus

It varied. But it was plural in the classical age and beyond.

@Mitch I didn't know the goddess lived in Georgia, too!

Although it was of course a popular region for Greek settlers.

Mitch

@Cerberus 'Attic' derives from Athena?

or the other way or something?

Cerberus

Colchis

Colchis (/ˈkɒlkɪs/; Georgian: კოლხეთი Kolkheti; Greek Κολχίς Kolkhis) was an ancient kingdom and region on the coast of the Black Sea, centered in present-day western Georgia. It has been described in modern scholarship as "the earliest Georgian formation" which, along with the Kingdom of Iberia, would later contribute significantly to the development of the medieval Georgian statehood and the Georgian nation. Internationally, Colchis is perhaps best known for its role in Greek mythology, most notably as the destination of the Argonauts, as well as the home to Medea and the Golden fleece. Colchis...

@Mitch I don't know.

But it is quite possible.

terdon

@Cerberus Really? So Αθήναι is plural, huh? Now that you mention it, I am aware of the -αι being plural but never thought about it in that context. Probably because Athens (Αθήνα), unlike Thebes (Θήβες but also Θηβα), is singular in modern greek.

Mitch

@Cerberus You should see upstate New York. Seneca, Ithaca, Troy, Utica, Rome. Hmm...no Sparta or Megalopolis.

Athens, Georgia

Athens (formally known as Athens-Clarke County) is a consolidated city–county in the U.S. state of Georgia, in the northeastern part of the state, comprising the former city of Athens proper (the county seat) and Clarke County. The University of Georgia, the state's flagship public research university, is located in this college town, and contributed to its initial growth. In 1991, after a vote the preceding year, the original city abandoned its charter to form a unified government with Clarke County, referred to jointly as Athens-Clarke County. As of the 2010 census, the consolidated city-county...

Cerberus

15:31

@terdon Yes, -ai is always plural in Ancient Greek (except when people didn't write the iota subscriptum).

America (Limburg)

America (Limburgs: Amerika) is een plaats in het noorden van de Nederlandse provincie Limburg en is een van de zestien kerkdorpen van de gemeente Horst aan de Maas. De gemeente Horst aan de Maas is met haar oppervlakte een van de grotere gemeenten in de provincie Limburg en is gelegen tussen de stedelijke centra Venlo en Venray, alle gelegen in Noord Limburg. America ligt aan de spoorlijn Venlo - Eindhoven. Vroeger had het een eigen station, station America. == Algemeen == Het van oudsher agrarische karakter vindt men nog steeds terug in America. Naast de agrarische bedrijven is de recreatieve...

terdon

But why would it have been plural, I wonder. There was only ever one Athena, one goddess and one town.

Mitch

Wait, what does that mean then if Thebes is plural? That there was a number of villages called Thebe really nearby and outsiders just called them all together the Thebe_s_?

@Cerberus Do they get upset when people form the US call themselves 'American'?

Cerberus

@terdon The singular was also used for the city, in some periods. But it's not classical. As to why, I've heard conflicting stories, one about the incorrect interpretation of a name from a non-Indo-European language (like Luwian), the other about how it meant "the several districts of the city".

terdon

@Mitch There were, apparently, two separate towns of Thebes. The Greek page of that is somewhat clearer but the two never co-existed. However, the location of the town of Thebes changed. Whether or not the plural is a reflection of that duality, I don't know.

Cerberus

@Mitch That is one hypothesis.

@Mitch Yes, it's racist.

terdon

15:35

@Cerberus Huh. And what would the singular be in Ancient Greek?

Cerberus

@terdon But the town in Thessaly can't be the reason, because you wouldn't say "I'm going to both Thebes" unless they were very close together.

terdon

@Cerberus They are close.

Cerberus

@terdon Could be Athena or Athenê, but probably Athena (also dependent on the dialect).

terdon

OK, so like the goddess and the modern city name.

Cerberus

Yes.

@terdon I would not call that close!

Matt E. Эллен

15:43

@Cerberus I shall use my mod's -10 votes ability

terdon

@Cerberus 7km?

Cerberus

@terdon Umm we must be looking at different maps?

google.com/maps/place/Mikrothives,+Greece/…

This is the other one, isn't it?

It says 215 km.

terdon

google.gr/maps/dir/Mikrothives/…

@Cerberus Yes, which are you taking as the first?

Cerberus

Funny Greek Google.

@terdon Why Nea Anchialos? That's not the great Ancient Thebes?

terdon

Ah, no you're looking at modern thebes aren't you?

Cerberus

15:48

@terdon No?

terdon

These seem to be two different things, and unrelated to the well known Thebes.

My bad.

I was referring to the Phthiotic Thebes.

Sorry, bad google-fu.

Cerberus

OK I'm referring to the great ancient city, in Boeotia.

Ah, OK.

Maybe there were several towns close together near Boeotian Thebes, too.

Maybe they weren't even all called Theba, but the collective might still have been called "those towns, what are they called again, the Thebes".

@MattE.Эллен Why don't I have that ability!!

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus ... maybe I wasn't meant to mention that

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен ~~The Deep Web!~~ redacted. disregard. pay no attention. these are not the droids you're kkgkgkhkkhk...

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