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4:00 PM
Or, as we say in Debian land, weep deb!
 
yes. keep that under your hat
@terdon what did ian do?
 
@MattE.Эллен Then we'll stick with maybe.
 
So what is your favorite pi identity?
you know, for pi day?
or are you one of those ... spits ... 'tau' people?
 
I like the golden ratio
phi?
 
sigh
 
4:02 PM
φ;
 
.
 
I'm the alpha dog.
 
people tend to overlook the omicron.
 
@MattE.Эллен Did you know that the semicolon is used as a question mark in Ancient Greek?
 
That's debatable
 
4:04 PM
@Cerberus that's messed up
 
@Mitch Yod.
 
@Cerberus I know it's used that way in modern Greek :D
 
Oh, is it!
Good to know.
 
but now I know about ancient Greek!
 
@MattE.Эллен so what do they use for a semicolon? an interrobang?
 
4:05 PM
I don't know...
 
huh huh huh
 
@Mitch ·
That's the Greek semicolon.
Modern Greek, anyway.
 
I thought semicolons were deprecated anyway.
certainly unappreciated.
 
@terdon Same in Ancient Greek, although it can also be higher up.
 
a "fun" thing todo is to change your friend's JS to use ; where it should be ;
 
4:06 PM
certainly.. OMG... the weather out my window is going sideways.
 
But anyway, I think the use of punctuation in Ancient Greece was erratic at best.
It's just the convention used in modern print of Ancient Greek.
 
@MattE.Эллен That is loads of fun.
 
@Cerberus Yes, I would have written it higher up but that's what my keyboard produced. That said, it's really quite rare these days. More so than the English semi colon I'd say.
 
@MattE.Эллен Gosh! Are those two different Unicodes?
@terdon Ah, OK.
 
@Cerberus hi doggy.
 
4:07 PM
almost as much fun as draping spoons from your noise
 
@terdon And do you have a colon?
 
@MattE.Эллен How much do I need to zoom in to see a difference?
 
@Cerberus I haven't checked...
 
In Ancient Greek, the high dot is colon and semicolon.
OK...
@englishstudent Woof.
 
@Cerberus I will gracefully ignore the double entendre and answer you: yes, we do. Same as the Latin one.
@MattE.Эллен They aren't.
$ uniprops ';'
U+003B ‹;› \N{SEMICOLON}
    \pP \p{Po}
    All Any ASCII Assigned Basic_Latin Punct Is_Punctuation Common Zyyy Po P
       Gr_Base Grapheme_Base Graph X_POSIX_Graph GrBase Other_Punctuation
       Pat_Syn Pattern_Syntax PatSyn POSIX_Graph POSIX_Print POSIX_Punct Print
       X_POSIX_Print Punctuation Term Terminal_Punctuation Unicode
       X_POSIX_Punct
 
4:09 PM
damn. Ubuntu is lying
 
@MattE.Эллен Oh? Why? What did it tell you?
 
@Mitch By the way, there is an app called discord app you can use that too to practice different languages like French, Spanish, etc in texting format if you like texting. It is basically for gamers but learners also use it, I don't, but I have heard a lot about it.
Thought I'd let you know.
A friend of a friend uses it.
 
@terdon well, I assumed it would be using the correct unicode for the Greek question mark, since it's mapped to the "q" key
why map to a new key?
 
@MattE.Эллен Different layout. That's where it is on Greek keyboards. But both Greek and English layouts use the same unicode symbol. Just like they do for the full stop.
Or the numbers and whatnot.
Doesn't make much sense to have multiple glyphs for the same actual symbol.
 
4:11 PM
@terdon Grr why didn't I think of that.
 
@terdon but there are multiple glyph, hence how you can mess with people's code
 
@MattE.Эллен Not in that case. You could probably have more fun with o:
terdon@tpad ~ $ uniprops 'o'
U+006F ‹o› \N{LATIN SMALL LETTER O}
    \w \pL \p{LC} \p{L_} \p{L&} \p{Ll}
    All Alnum X_POSIX_Alnum Alpha X_POSIX_Alpha Alphabetic Any ASCII Assigned
       Basic_Latin ID_Continue Is_IDC Cased Cased_Letter LC
       Changes_When_Casemapped CWCM Changes_When_Titlecased CWT
       Changes_When_Uppercased CWU Ll L Gr_Base Grapheme_Base Graph
       X_POSIX_Graph GrBase IDC ID_Start IDS Letter L_ Latin Latn
       Lowercase_Letter Lower X_POSIX_Lower Lowercase PerlWord POSIX_Word
 
@terdon I agree, but don't let @tchrist hear it...
 
4:12 PM
@MattE.Эллен Oh!
 
@terdon Or various capitals.
I used to drive Reg crazy with that.
I pretended I didn't understand his point about how Russian A and Latin A are different.
It was hilarious.
 
@terdon OKAY TERDON, WE WON'T USE MULTIPLE GLYPHS FOR THE SAME SYMBOL ANYMORE. =P
 
Because it's so hard to explain to someone who truly doesn't understand the concept.
 
Apparently we do. Who knew?
 
@Tonepoet Why are you yelling Tonepoet? Did you have your breakfast? You okay? :P
 
4:14 PM
> erotimatiko / sentence-final punctuation / U+003B is the preferred character
maybe unicode will deprecate it
 
@englishstudent i just wanted to make a full stop. >_>
 
Haha.
 
Good. Good.
 
@MattE.Эллен Ah, so that's why that's what's printed when in the Greek layout. Makes sense.
 
4:16 PM
yes
 
Wait, are periods ever called points?
 
only in numbers
3.14 = three point one four
 
In most languages, they're called points, I believe.
Like Dutch.
The sign is always called a punt.
 
yeah, well, most languages call them ananas
 
@MattE.Эллен Hmm, ah right. That's why I thought of it...
 
4:17 PM
@MattE.Эллен 'ananas' is 'pineapple' in Persian
 
@M.A.R. exactly
 
@M.A.R. gasp
 
English is special. We call . fullstops and 🍍pineapples
 
@Cerberus How sporty.
 
@englishstudent nice. I'll look into it. I'm not much of a gamer. By which I mean, I'm not a gamer at all. I've heard of games. Distantly.
 
4:20 PM
I'm so glad unicode has a code point for pineapples
 
$\phi=e^{i\pi/5}+e^{-i\pi/5}$ is a decent relation. — robjohn ♦ Dec 29 '13 at 0:06
 
@Mitch nice
 
@MattE.Эллен Yeah, "special". That's what my mommy says and I believe her.
 
@MattE.Эллен don't they have codepoints for all emoji?
 
4:22 PM
@Mitch yes. I didn't know pineapple was amoung them
 
@MattE.Эллен $\phi = \frac{1}{2}\csc(\pi/10)$
 
what is csc?
 
@MattE.Эллен Cosecant, prolly
 
@Tonepoet Point is from Latin punctus, from the verb pungo, cf. expunge, pungent, punctuate.
 
4:30 PM
c.f. punctilious
 
Cf. puncture.
 
it's why punk hair is so spiky
 
@MattE.Эллен It all makes sense now
@Tone SE's bot seems to randomly choose an image from the page, that's why you need to scroll down a bit to see that image
Actually I'm not that convinced that it's random. Maybe it was the image with the most fitting dimensions? Dunno
 
@Tonepoet I asked in the Tavern. Let's see what the response is
 
4:48 PM
posting your password again?
 
@MattE.Эллен Bah, missed it.
 
it was hunter2
I'd not heard of it.
I haven't read this in ages
 
@MattE.Эллен Yeah, very few people probably have. It was a nonprofessional effort and there could only be like, fifty people on it at a time at the most and it would cause incredible slowdown. The creator essentially abandoned it too.
 
5:03 PM
understandable
 
5:40 PM
Whack fol the dad, now dance to your partner, welt the floor, your trotters shake.
 
not so understandable
 
Wasn't it the truth I told you? Lots of fun at Finnegan's wake!
 
@MattE.Эллен Shit, too late.
Actually, I thought chat was the Wikipaedia search bar.
 
lol
@KitZ.Fox I don't remember you saying that specifically, but perhaps I forgot
 
rofl
 
5:59 PM
In English which is more correct or common: “I’m not interested in ‘a’ and neither am I interested in ‘b’” Or “I’m not interested in ‘a’ and neither I am interested in ‘b’”
Is “am I “ correct there or “I am”?
 
am I
You get inversion after neither.
 
Thanks!
@Cerberus So I hear people use "I am" too there sometimes is that wrong?
 
Although I would say, I'm not interested in A, nor in B. Or I'm interested in neither A nor B.
@englishstudent Yes, that is wrong.
 
oh okay. Thanks a bunch.
 
I'm not interested in A or B. or I'm interested in neither A nor B.
 
6:02 PM
But are you sure the sentences you heard people say are exactly like your example?
 
No not "exactly" but similar. Let me find some examples.
 
Maybe it's possible if the construction is slightly different.
 
if you remove neither for example
:p
 
Tsk, tsk.
 
looking at Google books, I see "Neither I am" from Shuja Alhaq and Santosh Kalwar. Santosh is Nepalese, Shuja is Pakistani. Perhaps it's a remnant from colonial English.
 
6:15 PM
@MattE.Эллен Or Sam
 
Way to go colonial English!
@Cerberus And can we get an inversion after nor?
I found one example:
 
@englishstudent in the US, people hardly use 'neither' at all
 
> Neither my friends nor I am interested in modern art.
It is with "nor" but can I say "nor am I " there?
 
'I'm not interested in A or B'
 
@englishstudent No, that should be are, actually.
 
6:16 PM
@Mitch yeah that sounds easy. I agree.
 
'nor' is like weird word people learn for computers
 
@terdon Oh
Thanks.
@terdon So they wrote a wrong example?
 
Apparently. Who did?
 
@Mitch Huh? Seriously?
 
6:18 PM
@KitZ.Fox too ra loo ra yay
 
@englishstudent Oh wow. Yes, that isn't even the only mistake there.
 
@terdon seriously. 'neither ... nor' sounds pompous
 
@terdon Ah. I was learning from that site. wow, thanks!
 
@Mitch Huh. And how about "yeah, neither do I?"
 
almost as pompous as 'whom'
@terdon oh. maybe
 
6:20 PM
Me neither?
"Which do you like? Neither." ?
 
ok ok I got it.
but 'nor'. drinking tea with old ladies.
Lady Bracknell
 
Lady Elenor Bracknell? How did you know?
 
Oh, we go way back.
 
Could someone else have a look at the link @englishstudent posted please? I'd like a second opinion since this looks to be an official page. I think it was written by non-native English speakers.
 
6:22 PM
watch yourself...there's a ledge
 
I used to host "Tea With Old Ladies" on a Thursday afternoon
 
I mean, even the Either she goes or I go., while correct, is not idiomatic.
 
@MattE.Эллен did any show up?
 
But this is awful: Neither Nova Scotia nor New Brunswick is involved in the project.
 
Neither my friends nor I am interested.
 
6:23 PM
Neither my friends nor I am interested in modern art.
 
Sounds fine to me.
 
@terdon Well, the situation sounds weird. Wouldn't you both want to stay?
 
@KitZ.Fox You find that correct? Seriously?
 
@Mitch That reminds me, tone is missing here. In text sometimes a little message sounds terse or rude but when I am on Skype, voice works its magic. So text can be tougher sometimes I guess especially when we have never the person we are texting, like here for instance, or anywhere.
 
@terdon Yes.
 
6:23 PM
@KitZ.Fox Why wouldn't you say are there? There are two subjects.
 
@englishstudent yes.
 
@Mitch No. They all went to Lady Bracknell's. She came over to ask me to stop hosting it.
 
Do the rest of you agree with @KitZ.Fox on this? Could it be regional or something?
 
but here, some past experience gives hints as to sarcasm or joking or whatever.
 
I'm happy with am and is
 
6:24 PM
@MattE.Эллен That... bitch.
oops, slipped into 'Sex and the City'
 
So Kit and terdon have different opinions.
 
@MattE.Эллен Really? Wow. I am very surprised. I find the singular to be very jarring there.
 
@englishstudent They're both insane.
 
@terdon "Neither" asks for the singular, I guess, or I don't I like "I are"
 
@terdon Terdon maybe both ways are correct. What do you think?
@Mitch :)
 
6:26 PM
@KitZ.Fox Hmm.
@englishstudent I don't know anymore. It's flat out wrong for me.
 
One's an insane vampire from the northern hemisphere of Mars, and the other is a sane drunkard from the left of Venus. But you don't know which one youre talking to. What three word question can you ask to tell which fork the road you should take?
 
But you have two educated native speakers who disagree so. . .
 
Neither one of those is suitable
Neither one of those are suitable
both ok, I think
of course *"one of those are suitable" is horribly wrong
 
@MattE.Эллен Huh. Yes, while I'd still probably say are I don't mind the singular there.
 
@terdon I see. So do you speak American English? Just curious because maybe it is okay to people from America like KitZfox.
 
6:28 PM
Ah. Yes, no, you're right. I just spoke that one out loud and I don't like are there. Damn.
 
@englishstudent Coördinating conjunctions, such as and, or, nor, can be used between clauses or between nouns. The inversion doesn't happen when the conjunction is used between nouns that are also the subject.
 
@englishstudent I'm a strange case. My father's American and I grew up speaking English but I grew up in Greece. I then spent a few years in the UK and many more years speaking English with non natives. At this point, my idiolect is all over the place.
 
The examples on that page are all between subject nouns, not clauses.
 
OK...to me I wouldn't bat an eyelash at "neither my friends nor I am ..." ...
until I thought about it and then I'd get all huffy and mark it with a red X.
 
That one just jumps out at me as wrong.
 
6:30 PM
@terdon what a mess.
 
I gave it to [John and Mary]. That's between nouns. I gave it to John and I took it from Mary. That's between clauses.
 
you need a do-over
 
@terdon Ah.
Well that's kind of cool. Greek and English.
 
I misexplained.
I have corrected my explanation above.
 
@Cerberus Thank you.
 
6:33 PM
When you use neither [noun group] nor [noun group] or [noun group] and [noun group], there can't be anything in between the conjunction and the noun groups.
 
@KitZ.Fox I'd never heard that one before. Where did you pick it up?
 
@Cerberus what's your take on the example sentences listed here?
 
@Cerberus So do you agree with terdon or Kit on my question above?
 
@englishstudent or me @Cerberus
 
If inversion would force neither [noun group] nor [verb] [noun group], then the inversion is not applied. This happens when the second noun group (and hence both noun groups) are the subject of the verb of the clause.
 
6:34 PM
Btw thanks guys. Much appreciated.
@Mitch haha. Of course.
 
@terdon Some are wrong, but the (lack of) inversion is correct in all examples.
In all of those examples where inversion could apply, the second noun group is the subject, so inversion is not possible.
 
@Cerberus It's the is/are that we're disagreeing on. I assume all of us agree that "I communicated [. . . ] neither by [. . . ] nor [. . . ]" is clumsy, at the very least.
But Kit and Matt seem to be OK with Neither Nova Scotia nor New Brunswick is involved in the project. while I recoiled immediately and Mitch first accepted, then upon reflection, rejected.
 
(Neither) nor and (either) or conventionally result in a singular verb if both noun groups are singular.
 
yeah. "Neither apples nor oranges are made of meat"
 
But neither John nor Mary is divorced.
 
6:38 PM
right.
 
However, the plural can often be found, despite the fact that style books don't like it.
Because two items close together may "feel" like a plural.
 
@Cerberus Dammit, yes, that's what I would say there too. But why don't I like the Nova Scotia thing?
 
And because and results in a plural.
 
@terdon maybe you count places as plural?
 
So there's lots of pressure to make it plural.
 
6:39 PM
@Mitch I'm not sure. It's in the set list of Friday's gig.
And therefore in my ear.
 
Let's take a simpler example. Do you all find this one to be OK? Neither my friends nor I am interested in modern art.
 
yes
@KitZ.Fox Drop Kick Murphys?
 
Why though? Friends is plural.
 
because of I, I guess
 
I think "Neither my friends nor I are interested in modern art." is OK too though.
 
6:40 PM
if you put it the other way around, I'd expect are
 
@MattE.Эллен It's a traditional song.
 
@terdon I think style books disagree about that, but they generally recommend the number of the second element, which would be singular.
 
Well damn.
 
@KitZ.Fox I figured, but maybe they're playing near you :D
 
Doggy you sound like a pro teacher. I mean sir. I mean Cerberus.
 
6:41 PM
So I would go with am in that example, but I don't "feel" it strongly intuitively...
 
@englishstudent You know he's not even a native speaker, right?
And he probably speaks better English than any of us.
 
Yeah I saw his profile.
 
Insolent pup.
 
Not at all.
 
@terdon Others are great too here. I mean you all.
 
6:42 PM
There is a reason why style books talk about this construction: it's complicated and people disagree.
So there is no shame in it.
 
Aye
 
Just make an informed choice.
 
Isn't the second element singular?
"I"?
hello lag
@MattE.Эллен oh yes, sometimes, but in this case it's me and my beau.
 
@KitZ.Fox you're playing?
 
singing. sort of. my breath is still wobbly.
 
6:45 PM
cool :D
 
@terdon Ugh, I mislooked. I have corrected my explanation above (the rule still stands, though).
 
Practicing has been some kind of respiratory therapy.
 
@terdon Ok right, so I'm going with "Neither my friends nor I am interested in modern art" because well I would say it like that because it is easy on my mind somehow. Thanks for the help though. Much obliged.
I'm not used to saying "nor I are" although it could be right, I agree, but still tough to remember I reckon.
 
I think most speakers wouldn't notice either way.
 
My poor non native speaker mind.
Yeah. You are right.
Very minute difference.
 
6:50 PM
@KitZ.Fox I hope it goes well.
 
I'm sure I'll be so tight I won't notice in any case.
And so will the crowd.
 
you're be rocking
 
Have you seen this Happy app? Socialization for the alienated.
 
Is there a chat feature there? I might try.
 
It's a phone call.
 
6:56 PM
Oh
 
To a person you can talk to about whatever.
 
Sounds nice.
If you want such a site with 'chat' or 'text' there is this: blahtherapy.com/chat-hub
I have never used it but I have heard of it. I don't know if it is good or bad.
 
@englishstudent Native speakers are probably going to be too distracted by the use of the word nor to notice the lack of subject/verb agreement in this case. Nor has been on a rather steady decline for the past 300 years.
 
But I hear some people can give erm shitty advice there, like for example if someone comes with a relationship problem people sometimes say something like "Oh just dump him/her and let it go" so I'm not sure.
Or the usual "Cut all contacts, delete facebook and hit the gym" advice that is common around the internet lel.
 
@Tonepoet Heaven forfend!
 
7:04 PM
@Tonepoet Thank you Tonepoet, like always. But which message are you replying to? I can't see the marker with that message.
Oh I understand now. Never mind. Thanks!
I got distracted lel.
 
@KitZ.Fox Thanks for the new old word. =)
 
anytime
 
microwave is technology. I still use a matchbox and an old stove for just about everything food related and my food comes off tasty.
Not to mention the best steak in world can just be cooked on a camp fire. :P
 

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