English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

03:03

I don't like my rambling on about but at all last night. It came to nothing. Just wanted to seal it with this remark.

Cerberus

03:36

Consider it finalised.

Robusto

06:03

U.S. No Longer Considered Full Democracy. Well, who didn't know that?

2

thought for food

It's a Trump-ocracy now.

Lawrence

16:05

@snailplane I haven't followed the thread, but @Færd's example sounds close to sentence-final but, something that occurs in several English dialects (the accepted answer in that link mentions Ireland, Scotland, Australia and New Zealand). This example adds "at all" to the end of the lot.

The sentence-final but version would look like "Don't you trust me at all, but?", but I can imagine it being spoken, especially if there is a pause for reflection before "at all".

terdon

@Lawrence Really? Like the BrE what? As in That's a rather good show, eh, what?

Lawrence

Have Rathony and WillHunting left EL&U? Some messages that seem to have come from them show a generic ID instead of their names.

@terdon Yes, indeed. :)

terdon

Huh, never seen that one. Nice!

Lawrence

I've heard it from some AuE speakers.

terdon

@Lawrence Rathony was suspended last I checked but that shouldn't make the messages appear that way. Will left, yes. But he'll be back. He does this often.

Huh! Rathony gone too? Wow.

Lawrence

16:13

@terdon I thought Rathony's suspension was over. He's left a message on his Korean.SE profile about deleting his main account.

terdon

Shrugs no idea. And given how abrasive Rathony's been, I can't honestly say I'm particularly bothered if they don't come back.

thought for food

What's eating him?

Lawrence

Eating whom?

thought for food

Rathony

MetaEd

Honey badgers probably eat rat hony. Maybe one gnaws at him from time to time.

thought for food

16:20

Perhaps :-)

@Lawrence the pause makes sense

perhaps a comma or even a semicolon?

Lawrence

@thoughtforfood I'm not sure. @terdon I've had my share of interactions with him through ELU; I'll give him credit for digging out duplicates to many questions. I was browsing ELU the other day and noticed some generic IDs that looked like they might have been Rathony's. I was surprised to see that he'd left.

@thoughtforfood I think it's an even longer pause than that. A hyphen wouldn't go astray there.

thought for food

right

terdon

@Lawrence Fair enough. If you've had a nice experience with them, great.

Lawrence

@terdon I was trying to be diplomatic. :)

thought for food

the internet can be very taxing on one's nerves

terdon

16:30

By the way, I don't think you're right about the final but. Faerd's example is more like it is but a scratch.

Which cannot be transposed to it is a scratch, but.

thought for food

You don't trust me. But not at all?

Lawrence

@terdon I was wondering whether that was the case. If so, I think it's trying too hard to mimic that form.

@thoughtforfood That structure works.

terdon

Agreed. But that's what it's aiming for, methinks.

thought for food

To me it reads differently than it sounds.

Lawrence

(Unremove earlier comment: There have been some positive interactions with him; the rest is probably best left buried.)

@thoughtforfood How does it read to you?

And how does it sound?

thought for food

16:36

It reads awkwardly.

But sounds ok.

Lawrence

When you read it, do you voice but more lightly than the other words?

thought for food

Yes.

Mitch

@Lawrence Jasper (=Will Hunting) has come and gone from ELU (and the rest of SE) numerous times. That's just his thing.

Lawrence

@Mitch I thought he was enjoying this round, though.

What about Rathony?

Mitch

@MetaEd or maybe he's a pie rat

MetaEd

16:39

@Mitch Ar.

Mitch

I love Richard Scarry

The early years

Lawrence

@Mitch Ah, the Scarry movies. For kids.

Mitch

His latest album is so derivative

@Lawrence ?? there are movies?

thought for food

Then integrate it ;-)

Lawrence

@Mitch They were books?!

Mitch

16:41

there was an animated kids show with newer books that had the 'look' of the 1960's books but were, in my esteemed estimation, crap.

@Lawrence against principle I link to amazon

Lawrence

@Mitch He had both.

Mitch

'What do people do a all day' (I never knew before), 'Cars and Trucks and things that go' (try to find Goldbug on every page), 'The Biggest Word Book Ever'

it has all the words

wait, what was the one where the cat gets to go to all these different countries?

Lawrence

@Mitch Returning the favour.

Mitch

hm... the mother goose one I think I remember from going to the dentists office as a 5 year old.

maybe

Lawrence

@Mitch Ernst and Heidi?

Mitch

16:50

Busy Busy World is where Huckle the cat visits England France and Italy. Maybe Spain and the Netherlands and Germany. I can't remember the entire itinerary. What, do I look like a travel agent?

Lawrence

@Mitch I don't think my dentists had Richard Scarry. They might have had Readers' Digest.

thought for food

The Readers' Digest is a classic.

Not that I could digest it :P

Mitch

@Lawrence Too many words. What about Highlights?

Lawrence

@Mitch You might be right, though this suggests that it was more like one country per story.

Mitch

Lawrence

16:55

@Mitch They had interesting quips at the end of the articles, to fill out the pages.

@Mitch Hmm, the Huckle I watched was a tad tamer. :)

Mitch

I see Ernst there in Switzerland. Presumably he knows Heidi.

Lawrence

@Mitch Looks like the book was better. :P

Mitch

Schtoompf is from Austria

Naturally

@Lawrence They went everywhere

Except for the planet Vulcan.

Lawrence

Mm. Fascinating. :P

Though they'd have said it with a straight face.

Mitch

I think Pon Far might have been a little much for just a couple pages and pictures.

Lawrence

17:01

@Mitch I doubt that would have passed the editor's review for a Scarry plot.

We didn't have Scarry books as kids. We had Enid Blyton instead.

Mitch

@Lawrence Apples and oranges. Enid Blyton is for kids who can read well (8 and above?). Richard Scarry is for 3-7, you can look at them as picture books, as story books to be read to, or as a beginning reader.

I think Enid Blyton corresponds more to Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys in the US.

(full disclosure, I didn't read any of those)

What did I read then? I can't remember at all now. No good series like they have now (Captain Underpants, Magic Treehouse, um ... does Harry Potter count?)

Lawrence

@Mitch Enid Blyton did write for younger readers - e.g. Mr Pink Whistle, as opposed to The Faraway Tree.

@Mitch Terry Pratchett, perhaps?

If you read Harry Potter as a 3-7 year-old, Enid Blyton would have been, well, child's play.

Mitch

@Lawrence that's not obviously written directed at kids

thought for food

@Lawrence Nice eyebrow grooming :P

Mitch

@Lawrence hm yes HP is for minimum 8 yr olds. but captain underpants is enjoyable at all ages.

@Lawrence "he wrote two books a year on average"

Lawrence

17:13

@thoughtforfood Rather Spocky, don't you think? :)

Mitch

two paragraphs is hard enough

@Lawrence and we're back to Pon Far

thought for food

@Lawrence indeed.

Lawrence

@Mitch all might be a stretch.

Mitch

@Lawrence ok. all dudes at almost all ages.

Lawrence

@Mitch When you're on a roll, it flows. Credit to him all the same.

@Mitch skipping by

@Mitch Haha. Umm. Yeah. I shall reserve judgement. :)

And on that note, I'll sign off :) . Nice chatting with you all.

thought for food

17:21

Cya

Anonymous

17:55

@Lawrence Oh, really? Sentence-final but creeps into my speech now and then, although I always write it as ", but . . ."

Anonymous

I haven't been able to figure out if in my case that's due to L2→L1 interference.

thought for food

Don't you trust me–but at all?

Hmmm, the hyphen pause works for me.

2 hours ago, by Lawrence

@thoughtforfood I think it's an even longer pause than that. A hyphen wouldn't go astray there.

How about: Don't you trust me? (But at all).

Nah.

:-/

terdon

18:11

I'd be willing to accept don't you trust me but a little? though.

Or, rather, do you trust me but a little?. I wonder why that sounds better.

Anonymous

@terdon But meaning 'just' there?

terdon

Yes

2 hours ago, by terdon

By the way, I don't think you're right about the final but. Faerd's example is more like it is but a scratch.

MetaEd

Isn't the word we're looking for here "even", not "but"?

Anonymous

@terdon But doesn't work for me in Færd's example in that meaning.

Anonymous

@MetaEd Yeah, even is a good NPI focus particle.

terdon

18:14

22 hours ago, by Færd

> Don't you trust me but at all?

Anonymous

Err.

terdon

The only way I can parse that, is if I read but as even. As in 'tis but a scratch.

Anonymous

Even doesn't work there either.

Anonymous

If you put in a comma, it would work. Barely :-)

terdon

Uhm. True. Also replace at all with a little :)

thought for food

18:15

Don't you trust me even a little?

Anonymous

That works :-)

terdon

And I don't think it works, mind you. I just think that that's the meaning of but (the one in 'tis but a scratch) that Faerd was alluding to.

Anonymous

Ah, I see.

terdon

For example, this works for me: Don't you even trust me but a little?

It's convoluted and unpleasant, but understandable.

thought for food

We must not give up but at all costs.

We must not give up at all costs.

MetaEd

18:27

Where did the original example sentence come from and why isn't the answer simply "ungrammatical"?

thought for food

books.google.com/ngrams/…

It starts here @MetaEd

22 hours ago, by Færd

> Don't you trust me but at all?

MetaEd

@thoughtforfood Absent better information, I assume it was misheard and we're talking about something that nobody actually says.

thought for food

Don't you trust me but a little?

MetaEd

18:43

@thoughtforfood Unfortunately Google won't let me add the end of sentence marker to that query.

Because that 3-gram surely shows up in many sentences but not the way it does in the sample.

thought for food

Don't you even trust me but a little?

I'm your best friend and you don't even trust me but at all?

A man who trusts nobody is a man who nobody will trust.

Mitch

19:04

@terdon all this but stuff is straining at a gnat. No one talks like that anymore. And all these examples are pleonastic, the but is not needed at all, and adding it just sounds weird. I replace 'but' in these sentences with 'except for' and they all sounds fine but repetitive

MetaEd

@Mitch I'm waiting for evidence that anybody ever said that sentence.

terdon

@Mitch Sure, no argument there.

MetaEd

I say until evidence appears just forget the question.

Mitch

@Færd No normal person would use 'but' in any of these nowadays. To understand that someone might use it and what it means and how to reproduce it is useful but I wouldn't use it in writing or conversation today.

@MetaEd wait...which sentence?

MetaEd

The one from 22 hours ago.

The one with "but" in it.

Mitch

19:07

They all have a but. Big ones.

Kit Z. Fox

I like big buts.

Mitch

I'm going to spank this metaphor til it hurts

terdon

They make the rocking world go 'round, after all.

Mitch

You nasty

Kit Z. Fox

All you other modders can't deny

Mitch

19:09

Did you see the Billy Eichner/Steven Colbert quiz?

"Nicki Minaj or La La Land?"

Kit Z. Fox

I ... what?

Mitch

I can't believe it's just so round, it's like out there

@KitZ.Fox You should watch. Outrageous

Kit Z. Fox

What should I watch?

Mitch

google for "la la land and nicki minaj"

NSFW

the words

Kit Z. Fox

dutifully obeys

Oh.

Mitch

19:19

use earphones.

yesterday, by Mitch

glances at news

yesterday, by Mitch

expletive

yesterday, by Mitch

turns off news

yesterday, by Mitch

sigh

MetaEd

@Mitch I think I'll skip it. Pop culture disability.

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh. I'm so sorry. That's all that show is.

MetaEd

@Mitch So insensitive!

Sorry, I was just channeling my inner trump.

Mitch

I'm finding it hard not to use that word as an expletive to replace ...

MetaEd

... waits for it ...

Mitch

19:25

Every time I look at the news, my first reaction is 'what an effing idiot'

2

and so now when someone says something that sounds stupid I have to hold back from saying 'You effing trump'

2

I hold myself back because I think it would be very hurtful to call someone that.

2

thought for food

Can't wait for him to change the White House into a hotel and casino

Mitch

Like if I see some kids in a back alley lighting firecrackers and throwing them at each other or playing knife throwing games, I think "quit acting like a trump"

thought for food

Government for the people elected by the people. For the next 4 long years.

2021

Kit Z. Fox

I didn't understand why it was funny.

The answers alternated between La La Land and Nicki Minaj and were obviously dreamy or explicit, so they weren't hard to guess.

So why was it funny?

I seriously really don't understand the humor. There was no play on words, no punchline, no "haha you guessed it wrong!" Just a guy reading lyrics and another guy saying La La Land! Nicki Minaj! alternately.

Kit Z. Fox

20:17

... I guess none of you got it either.

Anonymous

@Mitch I don't usually like using expletives to replace ellipses.

Mitch

@snailplane I have so much more to say on the topic but dammit

Yeah, that doesn't work as well.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch! You're back.

Please don't leave me hanging. What was the humor in that sketch?

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox It's a game that is not really a game because one would hardly suppose that one would mix up the two, as given by the content. And if you were to make the unlikely mistake, then would it be crazy if Nicki Minaj had a lyric like ... oh. You don't know either of them do you?

You see... La La Land was... and Nicki Minaj is ... and ... see? Hilarious!

Kit Z. Fox

But it's basically impossible to screw up.

Mitch

20:31

Yes. Also hilarious.

especially if you do screw up!

Kit Z. Fox

but he didn't.

Mitch

SC is an effing genius

Kit Z. Fox

so it is about as funny as someone tying their shoes.

Mitch

You got it!

ha ha ah hah

ha ha

Or reading the newspaper

Kit Z. Fox

OK. Thanks.

Mitch

20:32

depends on your taste

if you have any

Kit Z. Fox

I thought I might have missed something, but I guess not.

Mitch

look man it's not like a good knock knock joke

it's a little more nuanced than that

Kit Z. Fox

Sort of like the Chris Farley "so...remember that time..." sketches.

Mitch

a comedy of manners

Kit Z. Fox

only less funny

Mitch

20:34

you mean where he interviews like Paul McCartney?

Kit Z. Fox

I don't remember the details.

Mitch

sigh

Kit Z. Fox

Remember that time that Chris Farley interviewed those like famous people?

That was rad.

Mitch

goes back to listening to news to keep the mood light

Kit Z. Fox

wow.

you cut me deep just then.

Mitch

20:36

@KitZ.Fox burn

Kit Z. Fox

want to leverage some synergies together or something?

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox :)

your value proposition just fell in my mission statement

Kit Z. Fox

maybe we could break down silos with our cross-functional ... um ...

teams?

Mitch

let's touch base on the optics of that

@KitZ.Fox dead metaphor

Kit Z. Fox

I'll reach out to you

I'm rusty at this.

Mitch

20:44

Anyway, I find Billy Eichner funny in general (a particular brand of manners (or lack thereof), and then Stephen Colbert hilarious too but in this situation he can't say anything because BE is leading, and absurdity after absurdity follows.

@KitZ.Fox scrum? huddle? meat packers convention?

M. Hossein

I wanna improve my speaking skill. How can i improve it? any suggestion?

Anonymous

Shadowing. Record yourself.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch So it's kind of humor in the failing humor? Embarrassment type humor?

M. Hossein

@snailplane I'd rather to talk with someone else in order to learn more

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox a little. yes. shock street theater. accosting people seriously on the street with utterly trivial questions about pop culture.

@M.Hossein use the HelloTalk app. I'm not sure if it is chatting by typing or actually speaking and hearing.

@Mitch ... and then berating them for not having the opinion you wanted and then walking away in a huff.

Kit Z. Fox

21:04

but he didn't do that in this sketch

Mitch

you... but... what... GAH!!!

Anonymous

@M.Hossein That's a given. You can't get better without actually talking to people. My suggestions are just things you can do to help.

Mitch

@snailplane What's shadowing?

Anonymous

Repeating back what you hear as quickly as you can, while listening to a recording.

Mitch

Oh, nice.

Anonymous

21:07

It's a language learning technique.

Mitch

So any good youtube or news or whatever you want to emulate?

MetaEd

22:41

@KitZ.Fox I ran away from it.

Kit Z. Fox

22:57

Are you feeling better now?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…