[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer: Is there a word for "one who has never sinned"? by poo on english.stackexchange.com

My room is so dead full of junk I don't even know where to begin to revive it. I resolved to take out a single unwanted article (or maybe sort it out or put it away) every time I get out of the house. In a few months' time I should be finished.

Sweet gradualism.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: What is the preposition associated with "admiration"? by jack on english.stackexchange.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted username: A server is to a client, as to serve is to? by wingding on english.stackexchange.com

Hello there. I was wondering if there's a go-to way to determine which pronunciation of a word is more common if there are several? I know for spelling variants, ngrams is a decent option, but I have no clue what to do for pronunciations (e.g. the possible pronunciations of "either" or "route"). (Also, I was wondering whether this would be an appropriate question for main?)

Dunno about main. But that is a highly regional question, for the most part :-)

Indeed, but I guess that would be part of the information I'd like to find out. Using ngrams as the equivalent for spelling again, I can limit the search to the American or British corpus there, to see how spellings vary between the two (rather coarse-grained) regions.

But for example the case of "either" doesn't seem to be particularly regional. I've heard both Americans and Britons use both pronunciations, but I have no clue which one is more common where.

Hmmm...interesting question. Almost sounds too "opinion based" in this so called global Internet age.

Just to be clear, when I said "would this be an approppriate question for main", I didn't mean questions like "Which pronunciation of 'either' is more common where?" but the more general "How do I find out which pronunciation of several variants is more popular?" (or something like that), although I guess I'd like to know if either of those are on-topic questions.

Thanks for the clarification, I think a ELU mod would be more qualified to answer that, sorry.

I was just commenting on common spoken language.

@MartinEnder I'd say probably no (10k user here, but not a mod). Questions asking for resources tend to be off topic since they're not actually about the language, per se.

But maybe @MetaEd can weigh in.

@MartinEnder I'm pretty sure they're both equally common and this one has nothing regional. I know I'll use both, for example, depending on, uhm, my mood?

Which sounds better in any particular context?

Ah, @AndrewLeach is around and he's in the right time zone to be awake. Care to comment, Andrew?

It might be on-topic if you can actually quote your research. "Dictionary A says pronunciation is... Dictionary B says much the same, although the options are the other way round; Dictionary C alleges eether is more common than eyther, but that doesn't match my empirical experience... Is there a way of interpreting these results to come up with what is likely to be the least odd pronunciation?"

That is, you're not asking for resources. You've already found them. You're asking about what that research does not tell you.

Would that be on topic? Asking how to find such a thing out?

@terdon I think my prototype question might be OK. But "How do I find out...?" is more of a "What resources are there...?" question. A better question doesn't ask which resources to use, but how to interpret what they say.

Fair enough

It is possible that others will disagree with that point of view, but a "How do I find out...?" question is definitely off-topic.

Yeah, that's what I felt too.

Now I'm curious though. I know I use both pronunciations of either depending on I have no idea what, but do you think there's any regional bias there?

I think there is a regional bias, at least in Britain. That might be more of a question for Linguistics, perhaps.

Thanks, I figured the more general question would be closed as a resource request. There already are questions about the pronunciation of 'either' and 'route', but the answers don't appear to be awfully comprehensive, and unfortunately, I didn't see any useful resources that could be used in the future for other words.

@AndrewLeach it's a little crazy that Martin's question is considered off-topic (resource seeking). It is the interesting kind of question that we should be encouraging.

@MartinEnder some online dictionaries will label which pronunciation happens where (luh BOR uh tree in UK, LAB uh TOR ee in US), but that is not that common.

Sometimes forvo tells you the residence of the speaker.

I think any particular word would be askable in ELU

@Mitch I guess for regional differences it's easier. You can usually tell simply from checking out the pronunciations given on Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionaries. But when there are pronunciation variants that are both used in one of the regions, it's harder to tell which one is more common, whether it's regional on a more fine-grained level, or whether it's dependent on usage.

(E.g. for "route" I get the impression that the choice of "rowt" or "root" depends partly on which sense of "route" is being used, but not a in a completely consistent manner either.)

I think you'll find many of these are not consistent. I know I'm not consistent in my choice of either either or route. Or, for that matter, query. Then again, that might just be me. I've moved around a bit and have a very idiosyncratic idiolect.

@MartinEnder I think most people say e.g. rowter for the electronic device, but I really try to stick with rooter myself!

Because it's obviously from route.

@terdon Hmm what other option is there for query? I say queery.

Is it querry or something?

Yeah

How quer.

howjsay.com/pronunciation-of-query

Ah, I like Howjsay.

@terdon Yeah, I realise that they aren't consistent, but that makes it harder for non-native speakers living in non-English-speaking countries to figure out whether it's dependent on context, region or personal preference, and as a non-native speaker you're more conscious about the pronunciation you choose. Having data on which one is more common where might be helpful for that. :)

@MartinEnder Yes, both helpful and interesting. I'm just pointing out that in some cases it's even harder than the relatively simple "Yanks say this, Brits say the other".

Yeah, and those are the ones I'm specifically interested in, because the AE/BE differences are fairly easy to determine. :)

True. And then you have the flat out wrong pronunciations like nucular which, sadly, end up becoming official.

Not to mention aluminum...

> Though disapproved of by many, pronunciations ending in \-kyə-lər\ have been found in widespread use among educated speakers including scientists, lawyers, professors, congressmen, United States cabinet members, and at least two United States presidents and one vice president. While most common in the United States, these pronunciations have also been heard from British and Canadian speakers.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nuclear

Sigh

Haha, it's always painful when that happens. There are several cases of that in German as well (where it's even more unusual, because there is an official authority on German spelling and grammar), and even though I might use them in informal spoken language, it makes me sad that it's now considered a correct variant for formal writing as well.

(The most common example being "wegen" ("because of") now being used with dative instead of genitive.)

With dative?? O, mein Gott.

O.O

@MartinEnder well, there are practical limits to what can be reported in a reference like a printed dictionary. Presumably an online dictionary doesn't have those physical limits but is limited by the energy of production, the intellectual research needed to specify the complicated differences, and the extra (probably more important) influence of random variation in frequency, location, register, etc. For each word or pair of words, a lot of research has to be done.

If you look at those online maps of dialect variation based on word choice or distinct word pronunciation (yard sale vs garage sale, crawfish vs cray fish) (you also have lots of them for German), each one needs special research and the presentation is just not done by the dictionary producers.

I personally, like you, would prefer it if they did. There's lots that they could do reasonably (more refined frequency, register, subculture).

@MartinEnder I think GenAmE is rowt for generic senses and root for a few instances of highway numbers ("root 95 is blocked by traffic"). But midwestern/west for root in all places maybe? There's gotta be a map for that!

@Mitch how do you pronounce router? Same as route 95 or an army rout?

And does anyone pronounce an army rout as root?

This is a router (rooter):

This is a router (rowter):

One is derived from route, the other from rout.

I think BrE has the edge here at least.

Ah, so "rooter" is BrE? I didn't know. I am about equally likely to use either.

I've never heard either piece of equipment being called anything else.

AmE calls the modem/router "rowter".

howjsay.com/pronunciation-of-router

Yes. It's silly trying to get a network signal out of a woodworking tool.

It'll never work.

At least, I don't think IoT has got that far yet.

CNCoIP

whoosh

What's CNC?

Computer Numerical Control. It's used for computer-controlled routers/rowters.

They look rather like flatbed plotters (remember those?) but have a router bit instead of a pen.

I'd forgotten about CNC machines.

Yeah, here we say route as rout.

Well, it depends on where you are.

I wouldn't have known what you meant by "rooter", although I own both kinds of routers.

Is there any regional dialect where an army rout is pronounced root?

I've never heard such, but wouldn't have gone checking either.

It doesn't come up in conversation much.

Funny, I'm just noticing that the road name "route 66" I'd say as "root 66", but I'd ask "what route are you taking?" as "rowt".

Mitch would do the same, apparently.

We're geographically similar.

Anyway, I'd posit that rout would not be root on account of silent e makes vowels long. There's no need for that if there's no e.

The army was routed?

Closest you'd come would be Canadian, but even that is not as round as people make it when they are joking 'aboot' it.

@terdon Yeah.

@terdon Rout+ed in Wisconsin; route+d through Wisconsin.

If the pronunciation is the same, the preposition makes all the difference.

I wonder if remote control CNC machines are a thing...

probably

If not, you should make one.

@AndrewLeach I know, but I just wonder if anyone would use the "root" pronunciation for routed army. Just idle curiosity.

a tiny CNCoIP mill

Nothing is impossible in a nucular world.

with little stepper motors

for carving acorns

sigh and I had almost forgotten about it for an whole hour.

@MattE.Эллен It's just a plotter. Hewlett-Packard used to make plotters, and even had HP-GL to control them.

@KitZ.Fox an hour is good going

@AndrewLeach true, you could just have a plotter.

USB plotter in my pocket

3D printers seem to usually work off g-code

@AndrewLeach Wow. That was weird. I just glanced at that message and, apparently, the combination of plotter and Hewlett-Packard made my brain understand you were referring to Harry Potter.

lol

@Mitch Sure, I wouldn't expect a dictionary to be able to provide that information. But a statistics-based source like ngrams for spelling that isn't 100% reliable but gives a good indication would already help a lot. Of course, crawling data for spellings is a lot easier than crawling for pronunciations, but that's basically what I'm wondering, whether there's a comparable resource somewhere.

Map-based data does seem like a good idea to get an idea of local dialects.

I found this btw, which was linked in the post on main about the pronunciation of "route".

@MartinEnder Nice

@terdon as 'rowter'. I find it hard to believe that anybody says 'rooter' except in some strange dialect.

dialect.redlog.net/staticmaps/q_49.html That's creepy.

@AndrewLeach haha by 'strange' I mean not my own. I guess BrE says rooter consistently?

@terdon yeah that's what I say for both machines. root or rooter sounds... funny to me.

@KitZ.Fox What do they mean, "other"? What other option could there possibly be? Drugged? Draug?!?

put?

@KitZ.Fox that's exactly what I was saying in my first statement above. rowt usually but sometimes root for labels of highways

oh, that doesn't work with "from".

@terdon 'we're living in a nucular world and I am a nucular girl"

hauled?

sucked

matriculated

@MattE.Эллен is that the same that CNC machines use?

@Mitch most plotters apparently use HPGL

@Mitch Heh, I saw both.

I blame my parents.

@MartinEnder Once the government starts recording all our conversations through IoT, then we'll be able to do the really important research into exactly who those weirdos are that pronounce 'router' that way.

@Mitch like the British one? :P

@MartinEnder oh yeah I was thinking exactly of those maps (but also the NYTimes maps). Those maps show that things are just not cut and dry, usage is mixed geographically with usually only subtle imbalances.

except for 'hoagie'. those guys are weird. in their own pennsylvania enclave

@MartinEnder :)

@MattE.Эллен wait... there are 2D plotters, 3D CNC cutting (removes material) machines, and 3D printing (builds up an object).

@Mitch yes

are you saying all three use the same cmd language (which would be great)? Or are you saying all three are distinct? or something diffferent?

@Mitch I was saying plotters (2D) use HPGL and 3D printers use g-code

I'm not sure about CNC 3D things

OK

WTH is g-code? googles

Shocking!

the Modela MDX-40A Benchtop Milling Machine is g-code compatible

WP says 3D printers use g-code too

so I guess roland mills probably have their own proprietary system

er rather that CNC uses g-code and that 3d printing adopted g-code too

oh! cool :D

g-code will by rapper name

but I will answer to 'g'

or 'Codama'

to rhyme with Obama

or yo mama

I do more than rhyme with her

I'm her back-door man

you open the back door for her?

Naw man, you know that screen-door on her back porch?

I think you've got the wrong mother

it squeaks so I'll have to oil it.

and there's a big ol hole in the screen letting in mosquitoes that I'll have to repair.

@MattE.Эллен I think I've got the wrong number.

Best mistake I ever made

lol

goes into bridge

whammy bar

drum solo

Quit hogging the solo, Maurice!

it's all right, it's okay, you may look the other way

Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother

starts CPR chest compression

whoa

I went to take a shower and this happened.

See what you miss!

Join in, we're just jammin'

OK so 3D printing solves a lot of things like on our forthcoming moonbase (get on that NASA!) being able to print new tools that you wouldn't want to wait for from an earth shipment, using printer 'ink/construction goop' made out of moon dust.

But what about drugs and chemicals?

need to make a mini-chemical plant somehow.

3D print one

you jest but...

everything is chemicals, apart from the things that aren't. take the chemicals out of things you don't need to make things you do need. simple

reverse osmosis. works for keeping my socks smelling good, should be able to work for producing a good gin&tonic.

or a curry

mmm curry.

I heard that because of Brexit, all the curry shop workers are leaving (or at least not coming in) and that curry shops are closing in droves and the only exotic British cuisine left will be fried mars bars from Scotland (which will soon be lost too)

So basically Food Ragnarok

with no heroes and only indigestion

I haven't heard that

ragnarjosh

@MattE.Эллен Now you have. Also the guardian. Are there any respectable newspapers in the UK other than the guardian? daily mail and independent seem like tabloid trash

Relatedly: I get low and I get high

if I can't get either, I really try.

You can try

to understan

The New York Times'

effect on man

I don't understand it either. I thought maybe the Guardian could explain.

@Mitch some people respect the Telegraph, others the FT

the FT isn't related to the Times. It's independent of Murdoch

The Telegraph isn't part of News Corp either, but it is a consistent supporter of the Conservatives

(i.e. the party currently in power in the UK)

FT. seems parallel to NYT and WSJ (a left leaning general paper vs a right leaning financial paper, but both very respectable/trustworthy/not total trash.

How is the editorial page in FT? In the WSJ it's shockingly reactionary/bigoted but the newws part of the paper doesn't seem adversely affected.

I don't actually read it...

but you may have read it once over someone's shoulder, enough to get a sap judgement that you can now apply universally.

saves time

I did read a few articles once. I don't remember thinking it was bigoted.

IIRC you can access the FT for free on Google News for a few articles

Reading is overrated. I get my news from watching peoples faces.

While they are asleep.

May I suggest that you try and contact the Professor that created that survey? @MartinEnder

No need to be freaked out. I don't invade peoples homes while they are sleeping very often. That's a lot of trouble for some stupid news.

@Mitch Cameras, huh?

I see you've found out about the new dance craze

All that pressure''s got you down

@Mitch Are those the grocers' apostrophes?

It's a hebrew style apostrophe.

Can't you give someone a thumb up?

No one says thumb up, apparently.

@Færd Good question! I guess not. It's weird, the "s" here does seem to originate from the plural suffix, but it's become a fixed expression that I would use even when talking about one person making the gesture with only one of their thumbs.

Right. Thanks.

I remember I read somewhere it was originated in a show where critics gave films and such either two thumbs up or one thumb up or ... , and only the plural one survived.

I haven't fact-checked it though.

M-W says the first known use is from 1892, so probably that was just a myth.

Hey @AndrewLeach, I'd genuinely like to understand what the apparent issue is with that question I posted about a severed leg. Would you mind discussing it in chat?

@DCShannon From Help: "You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." Kick means to hit someone with one's own foot, attached to the leg and the body. If you're using severed leg (even if it's your own), it can't be kick. When does kick apply to using someone else's leg?

@AndrewLeach This is an actual problem that I face in that someone asked me the question, and I'd like to be clear on the meaning of the word. After the quote it looks like you're giving me an answer, which I fully agree with.

@AndrewLeach I was more trying to understand your assertion that the question was phrased in such a way that the answer had to be opinion based, coupled with your suggestion that I could edit it to make it more objective.

@AndrewLeach I attempted to rephrase the final question, but it seemed pretty objective to being with, so I didn't end up changing it much.

Well, perhaps it's not opinion-based, although it appears two opinions are possible. Perhaps it could be answered by research into kick.

Either way, it's close-worthy, surely.

@AndrewLeach If multiple opinions weren't possible, there wouldn't be any point in asking the question.

Exactly.

What?

If there was only one possible opinion, there would be no need to ask. I would hold that opinion.

So, it's a question with an answer that isn't immediately obvious, that could possibly be answered by research. Isn't that what we want?

Sometimes it's not easy to research the answer to a question. Sometimes it is. I would say that kick could be found in or inferred from dictionary entries.

So are you saying you think it IS easy, or isn't?

Because if there's a definitive dictionary entry that makes it quite clear, please point me to it.

I think it is. "To strike out with the foot" does not mean "Strike out with any old foot".

You're focusing on the usage of the word 'the'?

Why not?

No, that seems like it might be a good angle of attack.

It's an indefinite article, which would imply we know which foot, which could imply it has to be our own foot.

er, definite

Perhaps it's an ELL question; it's something that an ELU user might know (as I have been reminded this evening on an answer of my own).

I'm not an ELL, though

I didn't say you were. I said perhaps it's a question for ELL.SE.

I was honestly expecting the other native speakers would see my answer, be like yeah that is definitely what that word means, and we would quickly get a consensus answer. That doesn't seem to be happening, so maybe it's more ambiguous than I imagined.

Or people are saying WTF and not answering, or simply overthinking.

Something

Ah well, whatever. I'll just leave it for a while and see if people who show up later have a different reaction. That happens a lot.

@AndrewLeach What happened to the dashing gent in your avatar?

The "dashing gent" (Thank you! Thank you!) only appeared in order to wear hats. It only happened on this site, too.

Ah, cool. Tell him I said hi.

Will do.

He says hi.

(It didn't take long)

:)

Greetings

By "marginally different solution from others" should I understand that out there only a tiny difference exists?

Here, marginally different= a bit different?

Yes, marginally different means only slightly different.