English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2016-12-26

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Anonymous

01:10

@Mitch Yay

Pissed off layman

02:58

@snailplane thanks, that answers my question completely :-)

I was using @ not #.

Anonymous

Oh, I see! Well, I'm glad it all worked out :-)

Co Koder

hi guys

Pissed off layman

hi

Co Koder

Which one sounds better?

If your laptop were lost or stolen, what would upset you?
If your laptop is lost or stolen, what will upset you?

Pissed off layman

Neither, to me.

Co Koder

03:07

In terms of grammar :)

@Pissedofflayman any suggestions?

Pissed off layman

I would say:
If your laptop is lost or stolen, would that upset you?

Anonymous

@CoKoder They're both grammatical, but they might or might not convey the meaning you're trying to get across.

Pissed off layman

^

Anonymous

You're asking what would upset them most about their laptop (hypothetically) being lost or stolen?

Anonymous

Like, "Oh, no! The novel I've been writing and forgetting to ever back up, it's gone forever!"

Anonymous

03:10

That sorta thing?

Pissed off layman

@CoKoder obviously if your laptop is stolen you would be upset, right?

What is it about your laptop being stolen that would upset you the most?

Anonymous

@Pissedofflayman That sounds good, assuming that's what Co Koder wanted to say :-)

Pissed off layman

:-)

Anonymous

But we need more feedback here.

Pissed off layman

Indeed.

Co Koder

03:16

@Pissedofflayman yeah, but I thought the first option would be better because

Conditional sentences Type 2: condition in theory possible to fulfill

englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/if.htm

Just like this one as an example:

If I had a lot of money, I would buy a new car. (but I don't have a lot of money)

Or this:

If I won the lottery, I would buy a new house. (but I don't expect to win the lottery)

"Conditional two - to refer to a present unreal situation or to a situation in the future that the speaker thinks is unlikely to happen"

esl.fis.edu/grammar/rules/cond.htm

@Pissedofflayman yeah

Pissed off layman

@CoKoder I would go for the first one.

Anonymous

I think your first sentence sounds okay. I might say something like: "If your laptop were lost or stolen, what would upset you most about that?"

Anonymous

Of course, I'm changing your meaning slightly by adding most :-)

Co Koder

@snailplane @Pissedofflayman thanks!

Pissed off layman

Thanks for asking :-)

2 hours later…

Shafizadeh

05:51

Is this paragraph correct? (English perspective)

> I need a consultation: as a top user in react native tag, do you think is learning it worthy?! Someone says it's perfect, someone else says that's a terrible idea .. So I'm confused, I want to make a mobile application (both for Android and iOS operation systems), well, is it possible to make professional apps by react native? Or react native just let us to make beginner apps? Also what about the quality of apps which have been created by react native? thanks

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Deeply nested blockquotes: Why is the "a" in "cocoa" silent? by Andrews Simmons on english.stackexchange.com

2 hours later…

Ankit Sharma

07:51

Asked my first question, not sure about the tagging or if it's allowed here or not.

Open for suggestions

SmokeDetector

08:26

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: into well loved online inside radley signature bags by user212253 on english.stackexchange.com

Ramanujan

08:39

It's high NOOT NOOT

2 hours later…

Mick

10:50

@AnkitSharma The question and the tags seem reasonable to me.

1 hour later…

Justyna Nogala

12:05

What do you say when you step on a light object, a stone for example and you squash it into the ground so it sinks neatly in the ground?

Press?

press it in/against the ground/wall?

3 hours later…

tchrist

15:09

This Christmas Santa Clause brought Boulder ninety-mile winds that sent trees flying through the air and into power lines, darkening thousands of homes.

2 hours later…

tchrist

17:22

The OED’s word of the day today is nominis umbra, something which is but the shadow of its name. @Cerberus

user image

> 1640 J. Howell Δενδρολογια 65 His Statues should be erected in all the Mart Townes of Ampelona. — stat Magni nominis Umbra.

> 1856 W. Bagehot in National Rev. Apr. 363 Taylor's theorem will go down to posterity,..but what does posterity know of the deceased Taylor? Nominis umbra is rather a compliment; for it is not substantial enough to have a shadow.

> 1971 H. Mills Alden Mag. Writing & New Lit. 139 Until the middle of the eighteenth century Shakespeare was but a nominis umbra on the Continent.

Abcd

17:46

What do you call a person who is good at arguing?

Mick

18:00

@Abcd Persuasive, perhaps?

Abcd

I don't think so @Mick ... I m searching for a word to Describe Shylock the Jew in merchant of Venice

Mick

I hate to say it, but I have never seen or read that play. I know who Shylock is, of course.

Færd

Did Northerners have a name for Southerners in response to being called Yankees?

And how popularly is Yankee still used in the South as a pejorative term?

tchrist

18:23

@Færd Traitors works.

Or slavers.

Same thing.

Færd

Heh.

That kind of sanctifies the North, don't you think?

Anyway, maybe the old redneck.

Not that it's of any use to me. Was just curious.

tchrist

18:40

@Færd The Union did not conspire to destroy itself.

But if my statements sanctify those who stood against slavery, I feel no shame in taking that stand.

Mitch

@Færd I've never heard of one (grew up in the south, currently live in the north)

tchrist

The winners who wrote the history books need no denigrating term of disparagement to characterize the losers who did not.

Færd

Hmm. Maybe I should read up on the matter before continuing the discussion, but it doesn't seem to me that the one true objective of the Union was to abolish slavery.

Mitch

@Færd I never knew of anybody considering 'Yankee' as a real pejorative. No one's feelings are hurt by it. I have heard people from the North referred to as yankee, but only in a jocular manner. If someone were to use that to someone else's face in anger, they would surely be laughed at.

Færd

@Mitch Thanks.

tchrist

18:46

Cracker?

Færd

@Mitch I've heard Brits use it derisively (but not for just the Southerners).

tchrist

In Texas, yankee is pejorative.

Mitch

@Færd It's very complicated. The government had its reasons, individual soldiers had their reasons etc etc

@tchrist cracker is used as an epithet sure but it just doesn't have much weight.

tchrist

We don't even know what it means up here.

Mitch

'white trash' does but cracker and white trash are both for whit people in general

tchrist

18:49

@Færd Might glance here?

Færd

Sure. Thanks.

Mitch

redneck is very mixed...it is definitely more pejorative (and well-known) than cracker, but lots of people take a little pride in it, like you work outside and are not elitist

tchrist

I've never heard of black trash.

Mitch

oh..'yank' maybe. 'yankee' doesn't seem pejorative out of the UK

Færd

So they're different.

Mitch

18:51

obviously related,but yes I think different

tchrist

@Færd Brits say yank but they don’t just mean folks from Connecticut. Texans say yankee with a sneer.

> As a panel of historians emphasized in 2011, "while slavery and its various and multifaceted discontents were the primary cause of disunion, it was disunion itself that sparked the war."

Feels like we’re still fighting that war.

Færd

@tchrist Those ... -- searches for the right word

tchrist

The naked hate is a terror to behold.

Færd

You get used to it. Kinda.

tchrist

I guess that’s our cross to burn.

Mitch

18:56

shortest analysis of US civil war ever: CSA seceded to maintain slavery. USA fought to stop secession. Southerners fought out of loyalty to sstates and being invaded by North. Northerners some cared about fighting out of loyalty to North, but mostly didn't care about slavery. Southerners that weren't fighting supported the war effort because of invasion and loyalty, Northerners supported the war effort because wanted slavery to end in South.

tchrist

You don't get to secede.

Mitch

@tchrist It feels like ancient myths to me.

tchrist

@Mitch Sleep through the last election?

Mitch

there was too much going on for me to ascribe any cause and effect to North/South.

oversimplifying, looking at a map it was mostly coastal edges (and big cities) vs interior.

tchrist

It's still heart-vs-head.

Mitch

19:00

Atlanta/St Louis/NO all big 'southern' towns voted 'coastally'.

tchrist

Mostly it's educated versus uneducated.

Færd

@Mitch Was just going to say that.

Mitch

@tchrist That I agree with.

and if one were to use prejudices about the south, it would fit a little.

Færd

And the younger generation vs the older one?

Mitch

but theirs a lot of uneducated around the rest of the country, and the South isn't primarily 'uneducated'

@Færd I heard old people voted like the uneducated.

but this is ignoring the important start of this conversation which is that too many of the wrong people have huns!

Færd

19:02

@Mitch So did the North care about slavery or not?

Mitch

argh... nuns!

gnus!

dammit!

support the right to arm bears!

Færd

Gums?

Mitch

:D

buns

num-nums

Færd

of steal

Mitch

and corn meal

tchrist

19:04

You may well not like how qualified doctors and engineers are doing their particular jobs, but the idea of kicking them all out so you can have uneducated non-surgeons doing your heart transplants and uneducated non-engineers building your bridges is a recipe for disaster, perhaps even catastrophe.

I know that the Klan still exist. That's unnerving but not a source of personal terror. Well, or wasn’t.

Mitch

@Fard The southern men who fought in the US civil war were are poor rednecks/crackers/white trash who couldn't care less about super rich plantation owners ability to keep slaves. Most people in the south did not have slaves. Only the plantation owners. Southerners fought to stop the invasion from the North.

tchrist

But this time the oligarchs who've recruited the rednecks into their service have won.

Mitch

The northern men who fought weren't the abolitionists, they didn't care themselves about black people.

Færd

Makes sense.

Mitch

@tchrist My only disagreement would be with assuming rednecks equals southern men.

tchrist

19:09

This isn't as scary as the sixties. Yet.

Mitch

Yet.

wait..sixties?

tchrist

No Cuban missile crisis, no assassinations, no Kent State, no lynchings. Yet.

Mitch

@tchrist what? There's that idea floating?

@tchrist Oh

tchrist

@Mitch Skeletons in the Cabinet.

Mitch

I had been making the joke about cultural revolution style re-education camps because it was so outrageous. but has someone actually intimated at something like that seriously?

tchrist

19:14

@Mitch Unclear.

@Mitch I was referring to putting people into government positions they have no experience in or else who are bent on that position's destruction. Like most of the Cabinet proposals.

user image

Justyna Nogala

19:48

Yo

"`Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and these stones are aimed at us.'"

who will what?

I don't get this structure... "voices on the air", not IN the air?

tchrist

@JustynaNogala I know! I know!

Nothing like a Tolkien quote to ping me from my slumber. :)

Justyna Nogala

What? You mean I got it from lotr?

:d

tchrist

No, that I know the answers to your questions.

First, this is the original, non-modal will, something rarely seen today.

Mick

@JustynaNogala Gandalf on the Pass of Caradhras

Justyna Nogala

Yeah I have been using your service many times.

tchrist

19:56

Actually, it may still be modal, in that it is not inflected by person and does not take a to infinitive but a bare one.

This is the will that means want to or wish to or choose to.

Mick

Oops! It was Boromir.

tchrist

There are few today who use fell as Tolkien did, and fewer still who speak of fell voices, be they on the air or elsewhere.

Justyna Nogala

lol Let those (who) call it the wind if they wish to.

tchrist

Yes.

That's right.

Exactly.

Oh, today "on the air" usually refers to radio broadcasts, I bet.

But not then, of course.

Justyna Nogala

what did he mean by 'fell voices on air'?

well I know

terrible, deadly shrill

tchrist

20:02

user image

Justyna Nogala

but on air?

tchrist

Certainly fell means deadly.

Justyna Nogala

On air - is it even English?

tchrist

"On the air" not "on air".

And yes, it is English, Tolkien being English, and being an English Professor, and being a Professor of English. :)

Færd

It's as if the air carries the stones.

tchrist

20:05

"Fell voices on the air" means that the night winds carried or brought those fell voices.

Færd

It's actually better than "in the air", I think.

tchrist

@Færd Yes, I do, too.

There are no accidental words, phrases, expressions, or larger utterances in Tolkien, nor any that have not been thoroughly examined and often rewritten. There are no stray bits.

So he meant to say that.

And so you can warrant that it is English.

@Færd It recalls "birds on the wing".

I attribute the rise in "on the air" during the years posted to radio, not to other uses. And yes, I did spot-check that hunch.

Færd

@tchrist Nice image.

Man is fallible. Then again, yes, you should think twice before criticizing a literate author.

tchrist

People also talk about things being “in the air” when the Zeitgeist has taken it up, when it’s part of contemporary chatter.

Justyna Nogala

I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. But that does not make what you say untrue.

A brain storm. What Aragorn has in his mind?

tchrist

20:15

He is saying that it truly is the wind bringing those voices, but that they are not voices merely imagined from hearing whistling winds, but rather true voices the wind has carried to them from afar.

Justyna Nogala

a) Boromir stop lieing.
b) You cannot lie to me.
c) Why are you telling this?

tchrist

@JustynaNogala None of those, I think.

Justyna Nogala

Yeah, I checked the rest

There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'

This fragment does not need any clarification.

tchrist

> ’I do call it the wind,’ said Aragorn. ’But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own.’"

Oops, jinx.

Justyna Nogala

xDD

tchrist

20:20

There has been plenty of speculation on that passage.

For example: lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=archive&TID=180349

Justyna Nogala

These are conspiracies.

Nothing bizarre with this fragment.

tchrist

Since you are just now reading Tolkien, you should be aware that he uses the dh digraph in Elvish words like this to represent the voiced fricative in the middle of the normal English word other.

Justyna Nogala

"Those that go on two legs". grammar error detected.

tchrist

Mis-.

Justyna Nogala

Those "who" walk on two legs"

tchrist

20:23

What error?

Justyna Nogala

Those that go? really? do not we use "who" when refering to people?

tchrist

We often do.

I rather prefer to, myself.

Justyna Nogala

often does not mean always.

tchrist

But it is no law of English grammar that this must be that way.

Right: if it were "always" then it would be a law. :)

We routinely see both "the person that just called" and "the person who just called".

Justyna Nogala

That is how I always have been tought.

tchrist

20:25

As I said, in principle I like the who; in practice, I don't know what I actually do.

Justyna Nogala

You know... academic writing and such.

tchrist

Again, I like who, so I may not be the best guide here. There are many things that I like which writers of renown do differently than how I (think (that) I) do them. I feel like when proofreading my own drafts, I’ve changed that to who in places, which if true would suggest that this may be hypercorrection of natural impulses more than it may be right and wrong.

And yes, my use of “that I like which” was deliberate.

It would have been clunky to use that twice there, so we naturally vary it.

Which-hunters be damned. :)

Tolkien had a terrible, terrible time with proofreaders messing up his text.

And these unhappy “corrections” of his intended text would often go unnoticed for years.

Your copy should have a short "History of the Text" section in the very beginning that mentions some of these troubles.

This is a section separate from the Second Edition’s Foreword, in which he writes:

> The Lord of the Rings is now issued in a new edition, and the opportunity has been taken of revising it. A number of errors and inconsistencies that still remained in the text have been corrected, and an attempt has been made to provide information on a few points which attentive readers have raised.

Should be by Wayne Hammond. I think.

Justyna Nogala

Nice lecture @tchrist thanks.

I must admit that I have a very poor pdf version of the book.

Have 3 volumes already translated into Polish.

tchrist

They eventually expanded their notes on the history of the text into a full volume: The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion

Justyna Nogala

I had a task to translate this fragment on my own.

tchrist

20:40

I'm at my parents', so cannot quickly put my hands on a copy of LOTR.

Not because it is not here, but because I don't know where it is. :)

Anonymous

I could, but then I'd be cold.

Justyna Nogala

heh.

There aren't many books I've managed to read in English.

tchrist

You should assume that anything you read of his is grammatical; your task when you find something that appears not to be is to understand how it actually is such.

Justyna Nogala

Actually, there is one.

tchrist

In many ways, this is an extremely difficult book for learners.

Justyna Nogala

20:42

Well, Try Uncle Tom's Cabin.

tchrist

But the rewards you shall reap from its love of the English language cannot be measured.

Justyna Nogala

It's difficult for native speakers.

tchrist

Perhaps.

I don't think so, though.

It depends on their reading level.

It is literature, not twitter.

The few parts that truly are difficult are ones he intended to be so. :)

> I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Like that one. :)

Justyna Nogala

Oh yeah. I've read Three Musketerees in English but unfortunatelly it's not an English book

tchrist

Dumas is . . . floral, soit en français, soit en anglais. :)

"floral" is euphemistic.

Justyna Nogala

20:46

euphemistic

Still nothing rings the bell.

: /

tchrist

I mean that it is mannered, affected prose.

I mean that it is flowery.

Justyna Nogala

It is indeed, but He's French.

He was*

I cannot understand why you cannot speak of a dead person in a present time. English is wierd.

tchrist

He was also paid by the word, I believe.

Justyna Nogala

In Polish it does not matter unless it's blatant that everybody knows the deceased.

tchrist

dumaspere.com/pages/bibliotheque/…

You can say that he writes carefully in the present, but you probably shouldn't say that he is paid by the word instead of was paid by the word.

> Cette présentation à Milady occupait fort la tête de notre Gascon. Il se rappelait de quelle façon étrange cette femme avait été mêlée jusque-là dans sa destinée. Selon sa conviction, c'était quelque créature du cardinal, et cependant il se sentait invinciblement entraîné vers elle, par un de ces sentiments dont on ne se rend pas compte. Sa seule crainte était que Milady ne reconnût en lui l'homme de Meung et de Douvres.
Alors, elle savait qu'il était des amis de M. de Tréville, et par conséquent qu'il appartenait corps et âme au roi, ce qui, dès lors, lui faisait perdre une partie de ses…

Justyna Nogala

20:54

I cannot read French.

tchrist

Oh.

Sorry.

Justyna Nogala

:D

tchrist

"Long sentences" then. :)

1 hour later…

Færd

21:59

Man, I'm such a grateful person! : chat.stackexchange.com/…

indulges in self-deception

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