English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

04:42

> Doesn't it scare you walk through the park at night? # MCCLEOD # No. I don't scare easy.

(COCA)

Can you normally use scare intransitively?

What would be a better synonymous intransitive verb?

"To scare easily(/easy)" seems to be somewhat of an idiom.

Frighten works.

Maybe terrify too. And some others.

It's interesting how you can switch the transitivity of English verbs so easily.

Hugo

06:47

Thanks for the upvotes! If I get to 10, I get a hat! english.stackexchange.com/q/364267/9001

Anonymous

08:00

@Færd To walk or walking. My money is on an error in transcription.

Anonymous

@Færd Yes. This is called a 'middle' intransitive in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, because although English doesn't actually have a middle voice, it is an verb used intransitively in a way similar to a middle voice.

Anonymous

> She doesn't frighten easily is active in form, but it has some semantic affinity with the passive, and it is in this semantic sense that it can be thought of as intermediate between ordinary actives and passives: we put scare quotes around the term to signal that it is being used in an extended sense and is not to be in terpreted as denoting a formal category in the voice system. (p.307)

Anonymous

In case you were wondering why middle is in quotes.

Anonymous

More loosely, you might find this referred to by some as an English middle voice, although that is not strictly accurate.

Anonymous

I suggest reading the full description on pages 307–308 and posting more if you have further questions about them.

Hugo

12:48

this question is but two upvotes away from a winter hat: english.stackexchange.com/q/364267/9001 :)

Arrowfar

13:03

@Cerberus youtube.com/watch?v=-FMa6jWqO8E

Helmar

14:00

Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation.

Fernando

Hello all again!

hello @Arrowfar, @Mitch!

Cerberus

14:34

@Arrowfar Very nice!

Fernando

14:54

What is "foreword"?

Andrew Leach

@Fernando en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/foreword

Fernando

please help me complete this paragraph: "In most countries, Healthcare is a business. As free healthcare is a human right, we should all make an effort to ________ it.". (Maybe "de-monopolize" ? de-buisness? help!

terdon

15:09

collectivize? free? provide? avoid? enjoy? share? There are many possibilities, depending on what you want to say.

Fernando

i want to say that it shouldn't be a business

Mitch

@Fernando Where did you get this sentence?

terdon

@Fernando OK, and can you change the sentence structure? You could use collectivize but changing the sentence would be better.

What's your native language? How would you write it in it?

Fernando

spanish

Mitch

'socialize' is the most likely filler nowadays (contrasts well with business)

Fernando

15:13

@Mitch yup, definetly

terdon

@Fernando OK, how would you say in in Spanish then?

@Mitch Would you understand it in that context? I think I probably wouldn't.

Fernando

be careful with that word @Mitch

Mitch

'collectivize' is a very specific word, which I wouldn't want to use. It's on the order of 'unionize'. The particular ideas those evoke are too particular for hospitals.

Fernando

social things are bad things

;)

Mitch

No one would expect to 'collectivize' hospitals even in a fully command driven communist economy.

terdon

15:14

@Fernando how about "In most countries, Healthcare is a business. As free healthcare is a human right, we should all make an effort to make sure it is not driven by profit."? Or something along those lines, paraphrase.

Fernando

why not?

@Mitch

Mitch

@Fernando why do you say that? I wouldn't be surprised if it has a similar connotations in SPanish

terdon

Pero en serio, como lo dirías en castellano?

Mitch

@Fernando you can edit a comment here, so that you message has a clear referent.

Fernando

@Mitch don't know how to edt

Mitch

15:16

@terdon yes. I would reword it so a single antonym word isn't necessary

Fernando

La salud es un derecho humano y deberíamos hacer un esfuerzo para desprivatizarla.

Mitch

@Fernando click on arrow between the name and the comment. there'll be a dropdown, and one of the choices is 'edit' (lasts for only a couple minutes)

terdon

@Fernando Si, eso, no hay realmente un antónimo común de privatizar en Ingles.

Mitch

deprivatize works fine in english

terdon

I mean, maybe deprivitize exists, but if so, it's very technical and not a word I've herad.

Mitch

15:17

and means the same thing

Fernando

@Mitch Thanks for the tip. "Deprivatize"?

terdon

@Mitch Jinks. OK, it does?

Fernando

I dont think so, but you're the experts :)

Mitch

@terdon I'm not sure on the spelling, but it makes sense to me and doesn't sound like a weird neologism (is it is in fact a neologism which I doubt)

terdon

@Mitch Agreed, the meaning is clear enough and I did find a dictionary entry for it (deprivatize), but it isn't a common word:

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Mitch

15:19

@terdon google.com/search?q=deprivatize+meaning&oq=deprivatize

jinx again

terdon

For some reason, the Spanish desprivatizar is far more common.

@Mitch :)

Fernando

yup

the prefix "de-" is very common in a very wide range of verbs in spanish

Mitch

deprivatize sounds much better than socialize. I've never understood what's so bad about 'socialize'. But yes, people use it like it's a bad word.

some things are better when a profit seeking business does it some better when the government does it.

terdon

Well, deprivitize is The Right Word®, it's just not very common, that's all.

Andrew Leach

Isn't "deprivatising" better known as "nationalising"?

Mitch

15:21

sometimes good to have both

Fernando

@Mitch socialize is an enemy of capital driven mechanics

Mitch

@AndrewLeach hm...maybe. sort of.

terdon

@AndrewLeach That might work, yes. Although I guess, strictly speaking, you could deprivitize without nationalizing. You could turn it into a not for profit organization, say.

Mitch

nationalization is associated in my mind more with a government taking control of businesses that are run by foreigners.

Fernando

yes but when you say nationalize, people think of a government taking over the hospitals

Andrew Leach

15:22

@terdon NFPs are still private.

Fernando

@Mitch exactly

Mitch

and it may become a government run thing or may be transferred to local businesses.

terdon

@AndrewLeach True.

Andrew Leach

@Fernando Like the UK's National Health Services.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Let's hope not. :P

Mitch

15:23

@Fernando In the US, postal service has both a government component and private business component. US Postal Service vs UPS/FedEx/DHL etc

Fernando

@AndrewLeach Im unfamiliar with the UK's National Health Services.

@Mitch so?

Andrew Leach

@Fernando They are funded by the national governments through taxation.

Fernando

and are free to everyone?

Andrew Leach

Universal healthcare, [mostly] free at the point of delivery.

Fernando

like a heart transplant?

Andrew Leach

15:25

Yup. Done on the NHS.

Some things, like a dental checkup, do have a small fee.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach yes, that's an entirely deprivatized system. and I suppose when NHS was created they would call that 'nationalizing' the health system (kinda goes a long with the name).

terdon

Actually, is there any country other than the US that doesn't have free health care for its citizens?

@Mitch Only if a private system existed before. I don't think that was the case.

Mitch

But I would have to say that most people would call that 'socialized medicine', right?

Cerberus

@terdon Poor countries.

Fernando

No idea

terdon

15:26

@Fernando You're making that claim though.

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't think that is a bad name, but it's not what I would use.

Fernando

which one?

Cerberus

It's like...it's just the default.

terdon

@Cerberus Like? No healthcare system is not the same as a private one.

Mitch

@Fernando you're getting the feel for the mechanics of chat. One more thing...to reply to a particular comment (because there are lots you could be referring to), also click the down arrow and choose 'reply to'

terdon

15:27

@Mitch Most people would call it a "healthcare system", I think.

Fernando

@Mitch like this?

what is "flag for moderator"?

Mitch

@terdon I don't know the history before NHS.

Andrew Leach

@Fernando If you hover over a message, there's also an arrow which appears at the right-hand end, which is easier than using the menu at the left-hand end.

Mitch

@Cerberus so everybody does use it? But what would you find more natural?

Fernando

@terdon are you saying US has the only Healthcare that hasn't a free, social component?

terdon

15:29

@Fernando Of the countries of the "developed world" I am familiar with, yes.

Mitch

@Fernando excelente, if you wanted to reply to "you're getting the feel..."

Fernando

@AndrewLeach gotcha

Andrew Leach

@Fernando It's like flagging a post on the main site; it flags a chat entry. Moderators can do things like remove messages, or kick users from the room, or ban them for a period.

Fernando

@Mitch reply

terdon

I don't know of any country in Europe without a public healthcare system. That doesn't mean there are none, of course, only that I don't know of any.

Mitch

15:30

@terdon yes, I think that is the usual stated thing the US is alone out of 'developed' countries, or 'the west' or 'OECD' or some common cohort of richer countries.

Andrew Leach

@Fernando Beware though: flags get notified to EVERY moderator on EVERY Stack Exchange site (we're all chat moderators everywhere).

Mitch

I don't think China has it. I don't know. They're messed up.

Fernando

@AndrewLeach so you're a chat mod?

@Mitch hahah why do you think that?

terdon

@Mitch I think they must, they are still claiming to be a communist state, after all.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach Holy crap! I never noticed that!

Andrew Leach

15:31

@Fernando Moderators are shown with blue user names. So I'm one (an ELU mod) and so is @Terdon (from somewhere else).

Fernando

@Mitch that's it, im flagging that

terdon

Healthcare reform in China

The healthcare system reform in China refers to the healthcare system transition in modern China. China's government, specifically the Ministry of Health of the State Council oversees the health services system, which includes a substantial rural collective sector but little private sector. Nearly all the major medical facilities are run by the government. China's healthcare reform history has seen an increase in quality after 1949 with the establishing of the Cooperative Medical System, and a collapse in healthcare with economic reforms post-1980. Recent reforms include the New Rural Cooperative...

@Mitch What? You mean you don't use this:

17

Q: Chat Reply Helper for Stack Exchange sites

Press : to start replying to a previous message. Press ↑ as many times as you need to mark the desired message. What does it do? First of all, the Chat Reply Helper for Stack Exchange sites provides a simple key combination to select a message to reply to. This removes the need to grab the...

Mitch

@terdon I think that says it's complicated.

terdon

@Mitch Heh, fair enough :)

Still, there does seem to be public involvement, at the very least

Cerberus

@Mitch It's like "socialised police services": we don't use a name for that. It's just standard.

In all countries I've ever visited.

Possibly excluding Turkey?

I don't know.

@terdon Every country has healthcare...

Mitch

15:34

Right it's 'communist' but things have slowly changed over the years, privatizing things, fopping coverage for people. and anecdotally I've heard from individuals the government just doesn't cover health care well.

@terdon sure.

Cerberus

And it will even be of high quality in almost every country, if you're rich.

I'm sure Luanda has a good, terribly expensive hospital.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. haha. there do exist private police services. at least on American TV.

Cerberus

Maybe not as good as a French hospital, but still fairly good.

@Mitch Pro tip: tv is not reality!

Pissed off layman

have you seen this @Fernando?

Mitch

Anyway, 'socialized medicine' is commonly used in the US to refer to stuff that will kill everybody in their sleep and then kick your puppy.

Fernando

15:36

@Pissedofflayman sorry, US restrictions don't let me access youtube

terdon

@Cerberus My experience of French hospitals isn't particularly good. They sent me away with a broken knee and failed to give me crutches. They just called me a cab and I had to get the cabbie to drive around trying to find an open pharmacy and buy some.

Pissed off layman

:(

terdon

So screw French hospitals, thank you.

Mitch

@Cerberus What? Why would you say something like that?

That's just not right.

terdon

@Cerberus if you prefer, they have private Jails. Does that count?

Cerberus

15:37

@terdon That's terrible...but even the best healthcare system is not always good.

Mitch

@Fernando from Spain?

Fernando

nope

c . u . b . a

terdon

@Cerberus Sure, but I have no idea what gave you the impression that the French is anywhere near "the best".

Fernando

@terdon maybe finland

Cerberus

@terdon I actually thought of education and prisons first, but then decided that even those weren't free there, so I had to think of some other basic government service.

Fernando

15:38

@terdon or norway?

Cerberus

@terdon Well, I'm not a fan of rankings, but they always score high.

terdon

@Fernando That I'll buy. Or Cuba, actually. Apparently, you have among the best trained doctors in the world (if not the best equipped hospitals).

Cerberus

Fill in any other Western country.

But I have to go.

Mitch

@terdon From the american perspective I've had extremely good experience there. Not being EUish, I just walked right in and they treated me (banged up hand), and sent me on my way.

terdon

@Mitch Oh, sure. They send you a bill later though :)

Fernando

15:39

@terdon yes, our doctors are very well trained

Mitch

@Fernando Oh.

things will change

there's also VPN'ing to get around stuff like that.

Fernando

@Mitch hahaha, we'll see what dear donald will do

Mitch

I mean really. the internet is just entertainment.

@Fernando Oh. Shit. Yeah. Sorry. The invasion starts in 5 minutes

Fernando

@Mitch yeah but my inet connection is so slow that it's impractical to use one, especially to access youtube

@Mitch man don't joke about that

jeeesus

Mitch

@terdon haha...I was a tourist

They'll never see me again!

@Fernando sobs in hands quietly

Fernando

15:42

@Mitch sure

Mitch

all because some rednecks want to feel all proud again and stuff.

Fernando

@Mitch did you know over 180 Canadian tourists die every year here while on vacation? hahaha

Mitch

which is basically what's driving Russia at the moment too

which is kinda nice once you stop thinking about it.

Fernando

mostly drunk and drowned drunk haha

Mitch

the two former world superpowers bonding over there newfound ability to cooperate and bomb the crap out of others they randomly get miffed at.

Fernando

15:44

man, can you imagine that, coming here to vacation and end up like a dead fish

Mitch

@Fernando hahaha. ha ha ha. hm.

That's actually sad. Or maybe that was a lifelong dream of those canadians

Fernando

@Mitch I read somewhere that with this fellow getting the oval office, it's the most dangerous moment for the human race in history

Mitch

or maybe they died of heat exhaustion

they couldn't stand the heat.

Fernando

@Mitch haha, or maybe a latina girl rocked his 70year old world too much

Mitch

@Fernando lots of people are saying lots of different things.

how's that for equivocation

how's that for equivocation?

That last one wasn't so equivocal.

@Fernando THere's a movie script in there.

Fernando

15:47

haha, nice one

Mitch

She thought he was a renegade american banker, posing as a canadian, to recoup some property owned by a rich uncle before '59

Your turn

Fernando

but actually he was a trained "officer" from the u s secr et servi ce

over

Mitch

But he was really a retired librarian from York PA on vacation.

oops...yours is better

but she was a retired librarian from Santiago on vacation

(so she retired real early to start her second career as a yoga instructor)

Fernando

in the end they lie on a beach of Varadero sipping mohito in the sun, while a drunken daredevil canadian drowned not far from there

Mitch

but she was unknowingly carrying the -microfiche- -hard disk- -USB drive- -SD card- dropbox acct # embedded in her yoga mat.

Fernando

15:54

yaga mat?

Mitch

it's badly mangled yoga mat

also I edited

Fernando

haha oh i see

Mitch

because it was a typo

Fernando

yup, she was delivering classi fied data to her handler, the yaga instructor

typo intended

Mitch

and the body floated by in the surf

Fernando

15:55

and they used him as a bottle floater

Mitch

final frame "Another round of mojitos!"

Fernando

damn, this is getting morbid for the poor canadian, (which i happen to admire)

Mitch

it's a dark comedy

Fernando

and the mojitos were poisoned

terdon

Dark canady.

rimshot

Mitch

15:56

.. poisoned by the dead canadian

Fernando

applause applause!

alright, we're all set for the oscars

terdon

@Mitch No! The stutter added a certain je ne sais quoi!

Mitch

And then everyone leaves the theater to go get the new trendy drink 'poisoned mojitos with a spritz of canadian'

@terdon I don't know what that is

Fernando

its a french idiom for "something, i can't tell what is,"

terdon

@Mitch It's French for It means I don't. . . Oh.

Mitch

15:58

hahahahha

is friday bad pun day?

terdon

@Fernando He knows. That's Mitch for "trolling" :P

Mitch

Every day is bad pun day

Fernando

@terdon damn, now i feel like the dead canadian

Arrowfar

Evening terdon and all! how are we all today?

Fernando

thats the TITLE!!

terdon

15:59

@Fernando Rested?

o/ Arrow

Arrowfar

o/

Fernando

@terdon no, sunburnt

terdon

:)

Fernando

Allright! who wants to come vacationing? I got this great place where the barman poisons drinks near the beach!

terdon

Yayyyyy!

Fernando

16:01

and occasionally drowns people

terdon

@Fernando Does that cost extra?

Fernando

nope. only if your canadian

terdon

Yay!

Fernando

it's actually a contest, whoever drinks the most "tainted" mohitos, get's the USB drive

terdon

Sounds like he gets the USB dive, instead.

Fernando

16:04

@terdon yeah, Im pretty sure he already sold it on ebay, everything else is just marketing

what? no ideas for a sequel?

terdon

glug, glug, glug. . .

Fernando

oh damn...

I hope you're not getting those from Enrico

Arrowfar

It's hot here today, I'm sitting in a fan.

Fernando

careful your legs dont get caught in the fan

Arrowfar

I'm sitting, not hanging from the fan upside down.

Fernando

16:20

haha, i imagined a table fan

Arrowfar

heh

Fernando

@Arrowfar Im sorry, but I knew once a girl person, friend of mine who used a similar nick on forums,

Arrowfar

You mean Arrowfar?

Mitch

@Arrowfar even in winter?

are you up north or down south?

Fernando

FarArrow

Mitch

16:24

@Fernando 'a girl person' -> 'a girl'. We weill pick up from context that she's a person.

Fernando

@Mitch haha I didn't want to put "girl friend of mine" because people would think she was my girlfriend

which is wrong

Mitch

yes, that's always confusing.

Arrowfar

yes, I am a smoking hot girl. Just kidding, I'm a dood.

Fernando

doood?

hahah thats hysterical

Arrowfar

@Mitch yeah it is 22 C here. And there?

Fernando

16:25

so i used a little subterfuge

30

ºC

Mitch

you always feel like you have to say 'my girlfriend..well, she's my friend and she's a girl, but it's not like ... but maybe... but that's not really...don't tell here I said this'

You can always just say 'I have a friend'

Fernando

@Mitch hahah, its so true

Mitch

and then when it comes out that she's a she, that 's when everybody's eyes raise.

Arrowfar

@Mitch In south.

Mitch

in spanish all this is moot right? you just say 'mi amiga' and everybody just assumes you're more than just amigos, right?

@Arrowfar so hot all year? isn't it at least milder, like 20C in January?

Fernando

16:28

@Mitch hahaha, no no. amiga is just my friend and nothing more. spanish is a much more detailed language than english

Mitch

@Fernando so what is the closest for 'girlfriend' en Español?

Fernando

novia

it actually MEANS girlfriend

Mitch

amiga pequeña

oh. duh. I knew that one.

Fernando

actually, novia means bride, but also.,

Arrowfar

@Mitch Yeah in January temperature drops to 8 C or 7 C sometimes. That's kind of cold for me.

Mitch

16:30

@Fernando so then it's serious?

Fernando

@Arrowfar love that temp

@Mitch nope

Mitch

when's the big day?

Fernando

@Mitch not serious

Mitch

I know. I'm just messing around.

But really...

Fernando

:\

Mitch

16:32

!!

Is there a word for 'planning on marrying'? Like 'fiancée'?

or does novia cover all that?

Fernando

i think in english is betroth

right?

engaged

in spanish it's "prometida"

or promiesd

Mitch

'betrothed' is a really old-fashioned word that no one uses, except maybe in church.

terdon

So's prometida

Mitch

'we are engaged to be married' but the person is 'fiancée'

you probably just say 'ella es mi novia, esposeramos la mayo nexto'

Fernando

yup she is my promised one: "ella es mi prometida"

@Mitch hahah what in the name of hell?

terdon

16:36

@Fernando That sounds like something my grandfather would say though.

Mitch

I know!

Fernando

@Mitch damn, are you letting your cat type spanish jibberish?

Mitch

@terdon Your grandfather? Isn't he already set? I mean ... he's a grandfather

terdon

@Mitch Would like to say?

Mitch

@Fernando I'm writing my bad spanglish

terdon

16:37

But he's been dead quite a few years so he no longer has much to say on any subject.

Fernando

@Mitch wow you have that word too? i thought spanglish was our thing

Mitch

well... it is.

but I just appropriated it.

hah!

Fernando

@Mitch ooooohhhhhhh, i see what you did there

terdon

@Fernando Huh? It's even in the US national anthem: "The star spangled banner"!

Mitch

To be accurate though, I'm using 'appropriated' wrongly, but then I appropriated that too. So I win, even if I lose.

Booya!

The rule is if you can't remember the real spanish word, you just take the english word and '-o' and often you'll get it right.

Fernando

16:40

@Mitch smooth

I could learn a thing or two from this guy

Mitch

In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they are not

Fernando

yeah I bet you cant spanglish that

Mitch

in teorio, teorio y practico son el mismo, pero in practico no.

maybe a few extra '-o's would help

Fernando

50/100

Arrowfar

@Mitch Yes it is confusing. I would only use "girlfriend" for a girl who I am intimate with. Where I live some people say "She is my girlfriend" when they are just talking to some girl and aren’t even intimate (like having sex). But that's incorrect I think right? Just a “lady friend or a female friend or even just a friend” would do in such a case I reckon.

Fernando

16:43

@Arrowfar good point

or "gut pointenstaczen"

Arrowfar

heh.

Fernando

how's my enman

engman

or gerglish

yup gerglish it iz

Mitch

@Arrowfar culturally it's hard to say (also I'm not 15 years old any more so things may have changed). But 'girlfriend' = 'we are a couple (but not married)' (but sounds weird for older people who are 'dating'. 'girlfriend' does not mean at all 'friend who is a girl, just friends, we like each other, but don't like-like each other'. Also this totally assumes the speaker is male, everything flips in different ways if the speaker is female.

@Fernando the germans say 'denglish'

Fernando

@Mitch jur pozts agr tu long und haggggrd to rgeeead

Mitch

because, currently, English speakers aren't being deluged with a single foreign language that fills all sorts of lexical gaps and neologisms.

@Fernando get a bigger phone?

ll s smllr wrds nd n vwls

Fernando

16:49

alright lets italglish the denglish: juro poztsa ara a-too harda too-reeda

Mitch

:D

Arrowfar

@Mitch Yeah. So people who are older and are dating what do they use instead of "girlfriend"? You are right, because a girl in her (say) thirties isn't a girl anymore, she is a woman. So just a "friend" when they are dating but older?

Fernando

womanfriend

or vomenfrendz

or wooman afrienda

Mitch

@Arrowfar Yeah, that's pretty annoying. You'd think if you live in a warmer place, that despite the uncomfortable summers, you'd get the advantage of a very comfortable winter. But no.

Fernando

joking aside, perhaps :Partner

Mitch

16:53

@Arrowfar I don't now. I don't know enough older people with situations like that or around them to hear what they might call each other.

Also, embarrassing. Really.

Arrowfar

Ah I see.

Mitch

I think older people just don't mention it.

Arrowfar

hah!

Mitch

They just happen to be around the other person a lot.

Arrowfar

yeah.

Mitch

16:54

And people might start off saying 'Are you... are you two... oh never mind'

Arrowfar

lol

Fernando

I am 81 years old and have an active sx life

dear children

Mitch

@Fernando there are all sorts of terms but they all have weird connotations/collocations

@Fernando Right. Nobody wants to hear that

Fernando

yup, a lot lexical of prejudice out there

Mitch

In English, partner is associated with 1) LGBTQ, but more heterosexuals are using it 2) business. 'This is my partner' could mean you're living together or could mean you formed a company together. Hopefully context distinguishes.

Fernando

16:57

Yeah thats just english, partner in spanish, or "pareja" means my spouse

or girlfriend

or booty call

Mitch

'lover' just makes you want to die inside out of embarrassment.

@Fernando 'esposa' isn't more common for spouse/wife?

Fernando

yes but pareja is much more general

Mitch

??

Fernando

nothing homo sexual of it

Mitch

and esposa sounds homosexual then?

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