English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Justyna Nogala

18:01

lol

You took it so so so seriously.

terdon

> When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;

MetaEd

@terdon Bulwer-Lytton?

terdon

@MetaEd Eliot

> LET us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherized upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats 5
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question…. 10
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.

Færd

Stirs up some memories.

MetaEd

@terdon George or TS?

terdon

18:04

TS

The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

MetaEd

Wow. I've been Poemed.

It's like being poed, except with poetry.

terdon

Heh. And one of the most famous poems in the language, no less!

MetaEd

I swear that line would win the Bulwer-Lytton.

terdon

That has always been one of my favorite lines of the poem, actually. I really like the imagery.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: Origin of idiom "full of hot air" by nah fam on english.stackexchange.com

terdon

18:07

Especially compared some of Willie's worst moments, like the bad, revolting starts and Here I and sorrows sit; Here is my throne, bid kings come bow to it.

Færd

@terdon I think that's when the evening has already settled, not when it's about to settle; ie, not sunset.

Mitch

@terdon I distinctly remember successfully avoiding reading that in high school English

terdon

@Mitch I distinctly remember loving it so in high school I started translating it into Greek.

Might even have finished it.

Probably not.

Mitch

@Færd "sultry. The word you're looking for is sultry"

@terdon I didn't do well in that class

Færd

I wish I had been exposed to this in high school. I would not have hated English.

@Mitch ?

terdon

18:13

@Mitch I was lucky. I had a wonderful English teacher and a tiny class of 6 people at the time.

Although I did balk when my Greek Lit teacher expected me to read Great Expectations in Greek.

Mitch

THere's some movie where the main characters wonder what the best poetic word for when it's both hot and muggy, and the spend most of the movie arguing about it and then some other character pops in at the end and says the obviously perfect word that they couldn't come up with, 'sultry'.

@terdon That's pretty hard core. We had to read 'Finnegan's Wake' translated to Swahili

terdon

@Mitch Could have been worse. You might have been forced to watch Gilligan's Isle in Swahili.

Færd

I don't see what relation sultry bears to the picture of sunset.

Mitch

20:00

@Færd only in that there is a poetic word for the transition from light to dark as the sun sets. It's more common in poetry than in real life. Like sultry.

@terdon gah! what is 'table' supposed to rhyme with?!! Don't leave me in suspense!!

MetaEd

20:26

@Mitch "panes", obviously.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch It rhymes with question, I guess

Færd

20:43

That's a feminine rhyme.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh DO not ASK what IS it, lettuce GO n MAKE our VIS-it.

ugh

dum ditty dum ditty dum ditty doo

Færd

Oh do NOT ask WHAT is it, LET us GO and MAKE our VISit.

Tusike

Hi, can someone please help me interpreting the following statement:
"Correspondence with the supervisor at the host institution about your acceptance"

it's what a welcome letter for a research trip should contain

what I'm not sure about is 1) is the letter supposed to be addressed to me, or the organization I'm under

and 2) what exactly 'correspondence' encompasses

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:04

@Tusike It's not really a statement, it has no verb

Justyna Nogala

Do you say. Histories in which or Histories where?

Tusike

it's the description I have for what the welcome letter should contain

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JustynaNogala Is history a countable noun?

Justyna Nogala

yes

I mean yes and no

noun, plural histories.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tusike So it tells you it has correspondence, which means letter(s)

Justyna Nogala

21:05

that's what a dictionary says

Tusike

so the welcome letter should contain letters..

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JustynaNogala Well, either form is correct, but it strikes me as odd to think that there is more than one history

Justyna Nogala

histories of many people?

is that so odd?

Tusike

alright, I think it should be a letter to my institution about accepting me

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tusike No, the envelope contains a letter or several letters

Tusike

21:07

there is no envelope. This is the description about the required document 'welcome letter'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tusike In that case, the welcome letter itself is the correspondence.

Justyna Nogala

Well, here we often say do you know any gripping histories? (meaning stories) ofc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JustynaNogala maybe not. It strikes me as odd. To me there is one history, which is the stuff that has happened in the past.

@JustynaNogala I've never heard the word used that way

Tusike

I see. thanks!

Justyna Nogala

well I'm just asking if this is grammaticaly correct cuz I'm doing a translation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:11

@JustynaNogala well, grammatically, either way is fine, except that you need to be careful about using the word history like that. It is not a synonym with story

what are some examples of "histories" in which something or where something?

Justyna Nogala

I was thinking about "tales", but these have fictitious connotation.

Like 'histories' in which truth mingles with fiction. Histories in which knights win and thugs lose.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

in English, history is meant to be strictly non-fiction.

otherwise it's a story.

Justyna Nogala

In Polish both.

story is usualy short.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

not in English.

Justyna Nogala

Histories are always long.

English is illogical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:18

again, not in English.

Justyna Nogala

A story of a man.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, we just have a different word for it. story

Justyna Nogala

A history of a country.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But also, yes, English is illogical, because all languages are illogical.

Justyna Nogala

not that much.

You guys have to specify everything.

Like you have to assume that everybody is an idiot.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:21

um. what do you mean?

Justyna Nogala

Articles.

for instance.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol.

articles provide extra information

There is a difference in meaning between "The books are terrible" and "Books are terrible".

Justyna Nogala

Yeah sure, but why the hell you say 'the sun' instead of sun?

there is only one sun

so why the hell you have to specify?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, first of all, the night sky is full of other suns

and second of all, it's illogical to special case just some words

Justyna Nogala

but nobody ever thinks about them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:27

So for anything that there is only one of, yet is countable, we should have a separate grammatical rule?

Justyna Nogala

apart from cosmologists.

no a separate rule.

on rule for all.

one*

Sun Suns.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, but what about book? There could me more than one book, so we use articles.

Justyna Nogala

Sun (any sun) or our sun in our solar system.

this is so obvious guys.

don't make it more difficult than it is.

Suns (other suns)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

seriously, this is a micro-optimization. The articles are required and useful for all other nouns

Justyna Nogala

article does not change anything in this example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:30

but you're saying that for certain nouns, singletons like the sun, we should have a separate rule for them?

Justyna Nogala

You should have the same rule as with mass nouns.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

we do have the same rule for mass nouns.

"water" is generic. "the water" is specific.

Justyna Nogala

if something is the only one. you don't have to specify it again.

king.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

king?

King William, King George, King George II, King George III, .... ?

Justyna Nogala

there is only one king

always on the throne.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:33

King of Spain, King of England, King of Scotland, King of Canada, King of Thailand...?

Justyna Nogala

yeah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, obviously there's way more than one king

and sometimes there isn't even one

Justyna Nogala

king of Spain. Not THE king of spain.

but there is only one in one country

always.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

really? always? There's never been a single country anywhere with multiple kings?

Justyna Nogala

ONE AT THE TIME

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:34

well, of course there's been more than one king at a time in a single country.

That has happened many times

they usually fight about it until one is dead

BTW it's "one at a time" because you're referring to a generic instant of time, not a specific one :)

Justyna Nogala

lol?

But you have never had both kings at a time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

don't make me look up English history

Justyna Nogala

Only one king can govern a state.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah but when two guys stand up and say "I'm the king!" and their men support them, then you have two kings

each claiming one throne, perhaps

Justyna Nogala

ok things happen in history but... that's a general rule.

like that wather boils in 100 celcius.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:37

well, the grammar is flexible enough to handle any number of kings!

And anyway, people talk about multiple simultaneous kings all the time. Like, any time two foreign kings meet each other to discuss kingly stuff.

You'll need to be able to refer to this king, that king, one king, two kings, a king, the king, etc.

Justyna Nogala

Yeah so what?

Andrew Leach

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The three kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland did have two monarchs at once, once.

Justyna Nogala

Still

You can say King of Alabama and King of Spain met at the temple.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AndrewLeach Yeah.

Andrew Leach

Don't know if that helps :)

Justyna Nogala

21:39

there's no need for article.

We debating an issue (the issue)? or grammar.

grammatical issue.

English is illogical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JustynaNogala Sure. But that's not how it works in English. And without articles, it's harder to discuss abstract kings. If every time I say "king wears crown" I am referring to the current king, how do I specify that I mean an abstract king? a random king? kings in general?

@JustynaNogala Sure, sometimes it can be left out. But so what? Sometimes it adds information and is useful.

Justyna Nogala

you don't have to.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway this has nothing to do with your history/story problem.

Justyna Nogala

king wears crown.

any king wears a crown

that's a general statement.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so instead of "a king wears a crown" I need to say "any king wears crown"?

Justyna Nogala

21:43

yeah both are correct.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so what did I save there?

In the specific case of kings, which are singletons(-ish), I can avoid saying "the"?

Justyna Nogala

sorry I meant 'king wears crown' and 'any king wears crown'

dog is animal.

cat likes milk.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But in the case of all the other nouns which are not singletons, I have saved nothing.

Justyna Nogala

meaning stays the same.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JustynaNogala But you can say it like that. cats like milk.

Justyna Nogala

21:46

dog barks.

dogs bark.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dogs bark.

Justyna Nogala

the same meaning.

as dog barks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, but it isn't the same

Dogs bark is a generic statement about all dogs.

The dog barks is a specific statement about a single dog.

Justyna Nogala

dog barks. this is a generic statement too.

beceause every dog barks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, no. not every dog barks.

Some dogs never bark, they only howl.

And some dogs don't vocalise at all.

Justyna Nogala

21:48

yeah there are some exceptions sure.

but in general

dog barks.

period.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"dog barks", without an article, makes it sound like noises. dog(adj) barks(noun pl)

Justyna Nogala

you guys have to specify everything...

hahah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

dog barks. wolf howls. cat meows. telephone rings. These are all sounds, not sentences.

Justyna Nogala

adjective of dog is doggy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, not really

Justyna Nogala

21:51

so why it sound like an adjective to you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

doggy is more of a diminutive of dog.

Justyna Nogala

this are senteces

you have a subject and a predicat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It sounds like an adjective because you're missing the article that turns your word into a subject.

Justyna Nogala

what? dog what does it do? barks.

dog barks. a fully grammatical sentence.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, it's not at all fully grammatical and you know that.

The articles are required

Justyna Nogala

21:53

Yeah yeah yeah... I'm just having a laughe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, without the article, your words take on different meanings.

Justyna Nogala

In English.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Except, of course, in newspaper headlines, where they never use articles to save space.

Justyna Nogala

See ?

And everybody knows what they are writing about

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well

headlines always sound funny

they're difficult to write properly

and they're easy to screw up

the linguists at Language Log keep a list of odd headlines that are extremely difficult to understand, but which show up in newspapers

Justyna Nogala

21:55

interesting

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And, in online media, you'll notice that headlines have gotten longer, and use more correct grammar, because space isn't an issue

Justyna Nogala

how do you guys make out what do they mean? i

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sometimes you can't tell what a headline means until you read the article.

And by "the article" I mean the text accompanying the headline, not the "a" or "the"

Justyna Nogala

if you have to think twice before saying that 'dog barks' might be an adjective. xD

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You're being silly, but of course the answer is that context matters.

Justyna Nogala

21:57

I am ;)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Just like I can understand when a non-native speaker leaves out articles or uses odd word order or strange vocab or mispronunces words, I can process headlines and extract some meaning from them.

Justyna Nogala

Of course but these are only titles.

I can't imagine how it can be so confusing to make out what a title means.

headline is a title of an article yeah?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

when you're reading a headline, "Dog barks" by itself would be "subject verb" but "EYE DROPS OFF SHELF" is an actual headline and it doesn't even have a verb in it.

@JustynaNogala yes

Justyna Nogala

what wrong with it?

Eye drops off shelf.

seems normal to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It is not about an eye dropping off a shelf.

it is about eye drops being removed from shelves

as in, no longer offered for sale

Justyna Nogala

22:02

lol

yeah now I see.

There should be at least a comma.

Eye drops, off shelf. so you can pause for a bit and think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If it had a verb, it'd be easier to understand. But my point is that headlines leave out articles, verbs, whatever, in order to grab your attention in a short space.

The comma is not really more grammatical.

So the fact that headlines leave off articles doesn't make a strong case for the language doing it.

Besides, did you say you spoke Polish?

Justyna Nogala

Yes I did.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, how can you complain about articles when your nouns all have gender!?!

2

yeesh talk about illogical

Justyna Nogala

I speak Polish and Czech.

ten tan to = ten pan ta pani to panstwo.

This man

This lady

This state.

lol

Gender is slavic languages is a useful thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You'll never convince me that it is.

Andrew Leach

22:09

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not only that, but the nouns are inflected for case (Pan, Panie)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But if you want to try, it'll have to be another time. Gotta run.

Justyna Nogala

Yeah me too. ;)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

cya

Justyna Nogala

Who? Pan
who is not present? Pana
who am I looking at Panu
who am I going with? z Panem
Who am I talking about? Panu

English.
MISTER
MISTER
MISTER
MISTER
MISTER

lol

Andrew Leach

Something like that!

I find Polish fascinating, as it is completely foreign.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…