English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

ktm5124

00:01

There's a new Literature proposal. Anyone interested in committing? area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/93238/literature.

Cerberus

00:39

@JohanLarsson Ah, it must be cold?

Johan Larsson

dark

we had snow but it is gone again now

Cerberus

I see.

Færd

02:25

@Cerberus Well, of course. That cannot introduce a non-restrictive relative clause.

@Cerberus In that case when couldn't be replaced with that, because it couldn't be used in the first place; right?

You see, we had the very same discussion about when is it possible to replace where with that, which lead to this Q&A:

6

Q: "It was the kind of story that / where you had to be there." -- Are the relative words 'where' and 'that' interchangeable?

Consider this exchange: A: Your story wasn't funny at all. B: Maybe it was the kind of story where you had to be there. I encountered something like that a few days ago, and wondered if the relative word where could be replaced with that: ?Maybe it was the kind of story that you h...

Now it's the same question about the interchangeability of when and that. I think it's often possible, by contrast to the case of where and that. I'm not sure when it is not.

Færd

02:50

> Relatives introduced by when or why have non-wh counterparts, with or without that:

> i I haven't seen them since the day [when/(that) Kim was born].

> ii That's the reason [why/(that) she resigned].

> The notation 'when/(that)' indicates a choice between when and optional that, so we have the day when Kim was born, the day that Kim was born, or the day Kim was born.

(From The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, p. 1053)

I'm not sure the above is always true. Robusto suggested that that doesn't work in this example, and I think I agree:

22 hours ago, by Robusto

> I look forward to a/the day when all children, black and white, can play together in friendship.

Færd

03:12

Now, to introduce an opposing point of view into the argument:

> 511.3

> ... we do not usually use that instead of when or where.

> *That* can be used instead of *where* and *when* in a few special cases (e.g. after
*place*, *day*); for details, see 498.6.

> 498.6

> After common nouns referring to time, when is often replaced by that or dropped in an informal style.

> Come and see us any time (that) you're in town.

> I'll never forget the day (that) we met.

> That was the year (that) I first went abroad.

(From Practical English Usage, 3rd Ed.)

Now don't ask me what 'uncommon nouns referring to time' are, because I don't know, and I don't think this is a very good way to represent this problem.

In short, I think CGoEL is in the right, but maybe not exactly right.

Cerberus

03:35

@Færd It usually cannot, as you say. When can, if you consider it a relative pronoun in the construction you mentioned.

@Færd Exactly.

suməlic

@Færd I think it might be related to the fact that some nouns like "day" don't have to be preceded by prepositions when used to indicate time. We can say "I'll never forget the day that we met", and we can also say "We met that day."

@Færd And in this example, maybe "all children, black and white, will be able to play together in friendship that day" sounds worse than "all children, black and white, will be able to play together in friendship on that day"?

I don't know if this actually has any explanatory value

Cerberus

@Færd It practically says the same thing you and I and others had already established?

@suməlic Perhaps in a semi-formulaic sentence like that, one would prefer to use the preposition, on?

suməlic

@Cerberus That's what I'm wondering.

Cerberus

But I'm not entirely sure whether that applies to the relative clause.

@suməlic It be also be something about position.

suməlic

This reminds me of a sentence written by George Eliot that I was thinking about recently.

It is "But, then, as we are almost invariably told that a heroine has a “beautifully small head,” and as her intellect has probably been early invigorated by an attention to costume and deportment, we may conclude that she can pick up the Oriental tongues, to say nothing of their dialects, with the same aërial facility that the butterfly sips nectar." (Silly Novels by Lady Novelists)

When I read it, I had a funny feeling, and it seemed to me that it was missing a preposition.

I found a paper that seems to discuss this issue: “Missing Prepositions” and the Analysis of English Free Relative Clauses, by Richard K. Larson.

Cerberus

03:43

@suməlic I think that is no longer used in modern English.

That's 19th century, no?

I think we're not less generous with our relative clauses.

suməlic

@Cerberus Yes

Cerberus

Immediately she left the office, her paramour arrived.

Or perhaps that should be had left.

suməlic

@Cerberus I found a book that seems to give some similar examples from dialectal or colloquial language: books.google.com/…

Cerberus

Dictionaries typically classify immediately as a conjunction there; the most obvious way to get there would have been through immediately as → immediately that → immediately.

I've taken half a sleeping pill; reading academic texts becomes difficult.

suməlic

@Cerberus Oh, is it supposed to mean "Exactly as she left the office, her paramour arrived?" I wasn't familiar with this expression. I would have just interpreted "arrived" as a past participle.

Cerberus

03:48

Yes.

Your interpretation is nice; I didn't think of that.

But I made it up: the intention was that of showing immediately used to introduce a subordinate clause.

suməlic

@Cerberus Hmm, apparently it's mostly Brittish. That explains why it sounds completely wrong to me—one of those points of regionally variable grammar that doesn't just sound unusual to people who don't have it, like "this is different to that," but completely ungrammatical, like "I'm finished my sandwich" or "As a kid I disliked spinach, but I like it anymore."

oops, that should be "British."

That single "t" is kind of odd.

Cerberus

@suməlic Well, it sounds wrong to me too.

A bit provincial or Victorian, perhaps.

Færd

@suməlic I was talking about the relative-word that (the day that), not the determiner that (that day).

@Cerberus We did? OK. Never mind then.

suməlic

04:07

@Færd Oh, my including the determiner wasn't supposed to be related. You may replace "that day" with "some day" or whatever other noun phrase containing "day" that you'd like. My point was just that "day" often doesn't require a preceding preposition.

Larson mentions a class of "bare-NP adverbs" that includes words like way, place, day.

Færd

@suməlic Ah, I understand now. Interesting point. Yes, it might be related.

@Cerberus We hadn't though. I, for one, still don't know when exactly not to replace when with that.

@suməlic What about holiday? Or year? I imagine most of the time both that and when are interchangeable before those?

> This was going to be the holiday when/that you didn't gain that typical 5 extra pounds!

Cerberus

@Færd And the Cambridge etc. gave you more information about that?

It says the same as what we had been talking about, and it doesn't give you any additional rule or precision.

Færd

@Cerberus It('s as if it) says it's always possible.

That's new input. And I was thinking out loud there. Gathering data and comparing and ...

suməlic

04:30

@Færd "the holiday that" doesn't sound very good to me.

I actually feel tempted to say" the holiday where" in that sentence

tchrist

@suməlic This becomes a matter of technology then. In handwriting, nobody cares. But folks stuck on 7- and 8-bit systems are living in the Upper Paleolithic. The rest of us use Unicode, :-)

For some reason I missed that this is about how capable one is with computers rather than with cultural sensitivities. But it totally is.

suməlic

@tchrist This is about the diacritics question? Technological limitations definitely play a role, but there are also differing cultural sensitivities. Wikipedia for example seems to have gone through many tedious discussions about diacritics in the names of athletes (one example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…).

I believe Wikipedia discussions like this are the source of the phrase "funny foreign squiggles" to describe diacritics.

If there were any actual standard for English as a whole, there obviously would not be so much difficulty for Wikipedians to develop a standard for that specific project.

tchrist

04:49

@suməlic It just sounds so "Ugly American".

Ok that's a little interesting. I dropped when they went off the weeds about searching. Totally strawman. Should be comparing only base letters and without case. The Unicode Collation Algorithm helps.

suməlic

@tchrist I agree, but I don't think there is any definite answer for this topic, only opinions. I've therefore voted to close the question as "primarily opinion-based".

tchrist

I agree with you.

There are tech issues and cultural ones. We can't solve those.

Because I've lived and breathed Unicode for so many years now, I forget how helpless nonprogrammers tend to be with all this..

It never occurs to me that typing them in is the way one generates those fancy bits. I never do it that way apart from the basic ones.

Cerberus

@Færd It doesn't say that?

It says only with certain common nouns of time.

But it's bed time.

Mazura

@tchrist - You have been covertly mentioned in my latest meta comment. Please advise if I've over stepped. Feel free to delete it, ignore it, or respond to the situation (here or there) that I suggest I see happening.

Any input from you other mods here would be welcomed as well.

tchrist

05:08

No it's fine. Sometimes I actually answer questions. Not everyone does.

One thing you can count on: I don't answer questions so I can get more reps. ;)

Mazura

I'm aware that it has nothing to do with the OP's question, I just don't have the wherewithal to ask the meta question State of ELU 2016. It just seems like a one-man show these days. But I'm also aware that moderation is predominantly behind the scenes. Maybe it's just me (and my interactions with you ;)

tchrist

I get tired of closing things. So sometimes I answer. I'm not convinced these infrequent acts of mercy are making the world a worse place to live in.

ELU has serious issues but moderation is not one of them. Quality is. There are others.

We're getting ever more very very poor posts from rep=1 users unfamiliar with our culture. They keep pitching mini-tweets. It doesn’t help.

Mazura

Has there ever not been a problem with quality?

tchrist

I see graphs you don't. The lines are unfavorable.

Mazura

Questions like that OP's are why I have grammar on ignore, and why I stick to playing the ELU crossword puzzles.

tchrist

05:19

Our closure rate has gone up by some 50% in less than a year.

But traffic and total posts keep growing.

Mazura

On specifically 1-rep's questions? (need ratios, not percentages)

There's recently been new criteria for closing, too.

tchrist

I haven't dug up the rep=1 data lately by itself. I imagine it is as it has ever been: very poor. But the deluge of them is killer.

Mazura

E.g., example sentences.

Hasn't SO had to deal with that from the get go? How do they?

tchrist

I need to figure that out.

Mazura

Heh. Let me know when you do. Have a good one.

J doh

07:59

Can we use quotation marks similarly to (mathematical) brackets eg.

""no way" said James, "that's too convoluted!""

suməlic

08:54

@Jdoh The convention for embedded quotes is to switch from double quotes (") to single quotes ('), if that's what you're asking

"'no way' said James, 'that's too convoluted!'" or
'"no way" said James, "that's too convoluted!"'

J doh

It was, thanks.

Which of your two examples is preferred?

user227867

10:58

I used Microsoft Edge and found it to be better than Internet Explorer, but it is still not as good as Firefox or Chrome, so you should still use one of the last two.

user227867

Microsoft Edge has Flash built into it, just like Chrome, and in both cases you can disable the Flash, which is not really needed for most videos now.

user227867

Firefox is now the only major browser with no Flash built in, hooray!

Færd

11:23

9 hours ago, by Færd

> Relatives introduced by when or why have non-wh counterparts, with or without that:

@suməlic Interesting point. I guess I'll take up the rest on the main site. Soon, hopefully. Thanks.

curiousdannii

12:16

Now Araucaria has added in token research to english.stackexchange.com/questions/359359/within-or-inside without the OP's feedback -- it's the whole problem of english.stackexchange.com/q/356208/59258 all over again. At least this time the addition is so token that it doesn't change the meaning of the question. sigh

Scratch that, now it's a full definition from ODO. Which makes the question entirely useless.

M.A.R.

@tchrist And I'm in one of the cities whose citizens' life and death is decided by him.

Where has this world gone to . . .

M.A.R.

13:05

@curiousdannii There doesn't need to be collision if you guys just organize stuff.

Editing bad questions into good ones isn't a bad thing.

4

curiousdannii

13:25

@M.A.R. It is when the edits won't help the OP because they don't capture the essence of their question.

Færd

15:09

@M.A.R. Don't sound like you're dead already.

And decide is too strong a word to refer to his influence on that.

user227867

Finally, my ODE is coming to me from the UK.

Færd

15:25

I just used the stative verb sound in the imperative. I think that's incorrect, or very uncommon at best.

RegDwigнt

15:59

Jeebus.

What is that sore patch in Comic Sans.

well don't you know it, Americans always have to be afraid of something. They cannot exist without fear.
Jon Stewart and Michael Moore made that point so many times and in so many ways, and yet here we go again. The End of the World. Another one. Of course. Of course.
Everything is lost. Everything. When in reality not even America is lost, and America makes up exactly 0% of everything. And fifty years from now nobody will even remember Trump, like nobody even remembers Reagan today.

Færd

17:10

I remember Reagan. To mention the least, Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down during his administration with 290 civilian casualties, one of them a relative of mine.

I thinks the Japanese have more vivid memories of him.

Mitch

@Færd Uncommon, but works in the right context. As an imperative it sounds like you're trying to say "don't attempt to sound as though you're already dead". But without context, I thought like you were saying "It doesn't sound like you're dead alread" a statement about how things look now.

@Færd ?? why the Japanese? Did I miss something?

Færd

17:32

@Mitch Thanks!

@Mitch That was a blunder. I better stick with my memory of him for now.

Cerberus

17:50

@RegDwigнt I tend to agree.

It is a religious society on religious foundations, and the end of time has always been popular.

Nevertheless, we don't know yet. There might be unpredicted excesses.

@Færd Sure. Although other presidents shave also caused many civilian casualties.

Putin's partisans shot down a friend of mine.

Over Ukraine.

I suspect Obama has had more people killed in Pakistan than any other American president.

But 160,000 people die in traffic accidents every year in India alone.

1.25 million globally.

M.A.R.

18:25

@Færd Imperative? Didn't read it as imperative.

Færd

As for occurrence of mass destruction or a world war or a nuclear holocaust, it can't be casually dismissed. Maybe most of these nuclear missiles won't ever be detonated, and maybe most of them will be. How can one say it's not going to happen? Or even give a meaningful approximation of the probability of it happening in, say, the next 20 years?

M.A.R.

@Færd I dunno, probabilities always have a trick in the hat

Færd

As for poorer nations feeling the threat of another war being waged on them which is going to result in hundreds of thousands or even millions of civilian casualties and in being set back for decades, it has happened over and over, as we know, and the probability is higher under certain types of governments in the US. So, they deserve to be afraid.

M.A.R.

They have calculated probabilities for things you can't imagine the possibility of computing.

Færd

As for Americans fearing the end of the world, I can't speak for them.

@M.A.R. Yeah, I originally meant to say You sound like you're dead already.

Then changed it to Don't sound like ..., then regretted the change.

M.A.R.

18:31

Well I'm dead already, yes.

When I can't pursue what I love, I'm not living.

Færd

Maybe if you could pursue it and reached it, you would feel that you were no more alive than you were before reaching it.

Ie, maybe it's an illusion of life you yearn for.

M.A.R.

@Færd No, that's not what I meant.

You can't possibly reach ''study all the chemistry in the world''

Færd

Even if you could, you wouldn't so much more alive.

M.A.R.

I just disagree.

Yes, we yearn for many things and run towards them.

I define life as running towards them.

If they're so close that you reach them, you're doing it wrong and you're no longer alive.

AND if you can't run towards them, you're not alive.

So I'm not alive.

Because instead of pursuing what I yearn for, I have to become another boring doctor.

Cerberus

@Færd Yes, but Trump has said time and again that he wants isolationism.

As opposed to Clinton, who voted for the invasion in Iraq.

Trump knows foreign wars are now very impopular among Americans.

M.A.R.

18:41

@Cerberus The businessman mind

Cerberus

@Færd Indeed, it cannot be dismissed. But the chance does not seem particularly high now.

M.A.R.

That's got him the win.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Yes, or the populist mind.

Færd

@M.A.R. Okay, we don't have the same dfinition of life.

M.A.R.

@Færd What's yours?

Færd

18:44

@Cerberus What about his threats to crush ISIS and their families. And where he'll go from there?

M.A.R.

Please don't give me that ''viable cell that reproduces'' definition

Or ''42''

Cerberus

@Færd Everybody has been crushing ISIS, so what's new?

They're about to be crushed in Iraq.

And Syria.

Færd

@M.A.R. No, not that. Maybe we could talk about why yours is that first?

Although I believe those to be alive too.

@Cerberus And his claims that it's possible that he should nuke Europe?

Why do you think he's going to avoid waging new wars?

Cerberus

@Færd I haven't heard such claims?

But there are many people involved in waging war.

It seems unlikely that he could and would wage a crazy war that everyone around him strongly disapproves of?

M.A.R.

@Færd Because it's that. What do you mean why it's that? What should I have excluded/included in the living things?

Færd

18:58

@Cerberus About Europe he just said that he was not going to take the cards off the table. I don't interpret that as a threat. Although the way he talked about the matter worried some people.

independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/…

But I believe he's comparably more aggressive in his instinctive/compulsive behavior and his thoughts/words are less reliable.

@M.A.R. For one thing, in your definition it doesn't matter what your goals are. As long as you're in the run, you're alive.

M.A.R.

Yes, that's correct.

Cerberus

@Færd Ah OK, yes, we don't know what to expect based on that, but it seems unlikely.

M.A.R.

Although I meant the real goals, not what goal we deceive ourselves to believing in.

Cerberus

What if your goal is to not be bothered by mundane drives and impulses?

Færd

@M.A.R. Well, how about giving real goals some share in the definition too?

M.A.R.

19:09

-5

A: Is Earth's orbit altered by recoil from take-off/launch/recovery of aero/space vehicles?

Fat people are causing earth to spin faster, lose weight.

Færd

@M.A.R. So running toward deceptive goals doesn't count?

M.A.R.

Mhm

And BTW I meant the long-term goals, not short-term.

Færd

Therefore it's not the running itself that makes you alive. There should be a parameter of reality.

M.A.R.

Like things you expect to get out of your life, not succeeding in one exam or career

Færd

I understand. But the difference is just the difference between 7 days and 70 years.

I define life as 'to exist'. However much you exist, you're alive.

Some things exist only if they run. That's how much they're alive. Humans have that as an aspect too. But it's not limited to that.

M.A.R.

19:17

@Færd Well, then by your definition, even more people are dead than in my definition

Færd

So be it.

But in my definition if someone hampers your progress it doesn't mean that you're dead.

M.A.R.

Except a bunch of people in SE and a group of some 100 people I know IRL, everyone else is dead to me.

Færd

Everyone is for oneself.

Mitch

@M.A.R. What's wrong with being a doctor? That kind of knowledge includes chemistry and an infinity more. A number of infinities more.

Don't be the boing kind of doctor then...be the rocket science/brain surgery doctor by using rocket science to do brain surgery.

Cerberus

@Mitch What's your expectation of Trump's term? Or, if you'd rather not talk about politics, of course that's fine too.

Mitch

19:27

@Cerberus I have thoughts

Cerberus

Will it be hell? Paradise? Mediocrity?

Mitch

I stopped feeds to a number of twitter accounts, not because I disagree with them, but because it was just filling my head with stuff that I'd rather not think about. I'm thinking about it enough already without it.

Cerberus

Oh, yeah, I didn't read most of the news about the elections either.

Johan Larsson

Would you have voted trump cerb?

Mitch

@Cerberus The guy is not a Nazi, but I'm starting to realize that maybe AH wasn't really that much of a Nazi and things just got out of hand by the bullies that attached themselves to him.

Cerberus

19:30

@JohanLarsson No. You?

Johan Larsson

nope

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah, well, I don't think so. Hitler always had an agenda, and he always preached violence. And German society was pretty anti-democratic. None of those things apply to Trump and America.

Mitch

@Cerberus If we took DT at his word, which is often self contradictory (the example you just gave, he says both political isolationism (get out of NATO, don't get involved in foreign wars, 'I didn't support invading Iraq' (though he did when it happened)) and super-intervention (bomb the hell out ISIS)...

if we took him at his word when he's consistent (not much left!) there are few things that are objectively good. Infrastructure improvement: of course that is great, but how will it get paid for? Reduce taxes: excellent, but for who? The super rich? The way the (minimal) math works out, it'll only help a few rich people, most lower income people will get screwed and it'll increase the deficit by trillions.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I'm not fond of all the anatomy etc. stuff as much as I like studying a reaction.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, sure. But is that just a bad presidency, of which there have been many, or something far, far worse than anything you have been through since McCarthy?

Mitch

19:38

'Building a wall' is just nutjobbery...except if it's really a fence, a fence is mostly there already so he can claim a success that he had no part in. Deportation of illegals at even a hundredth scale will be a nightmare (I'm being clinical and not considering the lives disrupted) will need a huge infrastructure (camps, transportation) on the US side (on the good side creates jobs! (that's a sardonic reflection)).

On the foreign side... he can't make other countries take these people back; it'll be a mess.

@M.A.R. Oh. and blood. yeah that's icky. You could go into pharmacology (if your family is forcing you into medicine).

@Cerberus It looks like McCarthyism, but so much worse. Because as president and rule of law, he (or his 'advisors') can just make stuff up

M.A.R.

@Mitch That's the problem. My parents are both physicians and believe there isn't much money in pharma.

Mitch

@M.A.R. really? as a pharmacist maybe not. but working for a company making new drugs, man, pharmaceutical companies make money hand over fist.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, that hardly seems practical.

Mitch

also depends on the country where you work. In Russia, being a doctor is not as highly paying or prestigious as say Germany. I don't know about Iran.

M.A.R.

@Mitch But the physician doesn't get much of that money unless the idea is from them.

Cerberus

19:44

@Mitch Yup, that's most countries' problem that are trying to expel foreigners for whatever reason.

tchrist

0

A: Is 'Light of moon and ray of star' a idiom?

Eye of newt and toe of frog If idioms by their words invoke some special meaning hard to guess, then no, this turn of phrase you’ll note has none of that: it’s for the stress. Instead it turns the word around to better fit its count and line and measure beats out as they sound, this more...

Mitch

@M.A.R. If you remain a research scientist in academia (at a medical school or hospital) discovering new drugs or testing efficacy then yes the monetary benefits will not be as high. But if you work in the pharmaceutical company doing the same then ... hm... I'm not sure now. Being an executive at a pharmaceutical is insanely good, and one route to get there is via an MD.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well, they get even less money than pharmacists here

Mitch

@Cerberus My left leaningness says that it's not a good idea to get rid of foreigners en masse illegal or not because 1) it's not nice 2) it doesn't do what you expect (it won't save your job because you didn't want that job in the first place) 3) the US's persona is built on immigration and 4) practically, you need all those foreigners to maintain the population and therefore taxes/economy.

This reasoning (all but 3) works for all the countries of Europe too, especially 4.

@M.A.R. do chemists make more than pharmacists?

M.A.R.

@Mitch No, pharmacists make the most, after doctors.

Mitch

19:51

you realize that in Iran the huge proportion of people coming out of school with chemical degrees go into petrochemicals. Actually anywhere, but in Iran I'm sure the percentage is even more.

M.A.R.

Well it seems you have to have a big wig support you to do it.

Mitch

But chemists are needed everywhere so it's not an alternative that should worry your parents.

M.A.R.

I don't have much info on this though.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure I understand 4.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well, our country's brightest minds only become doctors. We're not as industrialized as Europe/the US, and there are the financial problems, so industry is a bit lagging here.

Everyone is afraid of getting into anything industry-related, unless they're sure they can pick themselves up if they fall down hard.

Mitch

19:56

@Cerberus In most developed nations (NA, Europe, Japan), the birth rate is going down precipitously, so there needs to be a source of kids or a source of employees to do low level jobs (like health care for old people). Immigration is a great source for that.

@M.A.R. That's not a bad thing. There's also academia or entrepreneurship.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Mhm, I'm already thinking about academia.

Mitch

@M.A.R. oh. I don't know what bankruptcy laws are like there. People get rich there somehow. Is it all being associated with oil?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Good point

Mitch

@M.A.R. There's a little more intellectual freedom there (in the sciences)

tchrist

I grow weary of this nonsense.

The question was about what the archaic language of second-person pronouns and verbal inflection means, which this answers completely by rewriting into modern pronouns and inflections the things he did not understand. It also gives leads to which questions of ours treat with such matters. — tchrist ♦ 9 mins ago

M.A.R.

19:59

@Mitch No not everything is oil, but when I think of rich people, I can either imagine leaders, especially corrupt ones, surgeons, or owners of candy factories.

tchrist

I’m also sad that @Tonepoet missed my verse. :)

M.A.R.

But again, I might be missing the point since where I live there's no oil but there's a lot of candy. :)

Oh, and also football players.

They get insane amounts of money worldwide IMO they don't deserve.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah, OK, in that way.

I do have to wonder about your point 2, though:

> 2) it doesn't do what you expect (it won't save your job because you didn't want that job in the first place)

I have heard people say this here as well.

Mitch

@tchrist Meta-commenting seems to be more common now, also dumb meta comments.

Cerberus

But consider how much pressure there is on low-education jobs nowadays.

Wages are dropping compared with higher-educated jobs.

Mitch

20:04

@M.A.R. Candy! That's it! It's all sugar processing!

Cerberus

When there is lots of cheap labour, from immigrants, how can that not put pressure on low-level wages?

Mitch

What industry are the bazaari in? I always hear about them but can't tell. Are they in production of garments? Concrete manufacturing? Real estate?

@M.A.R. That's the entire world. It's crazy.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Bazaari is the seller, not the manufacturer.

One of the possible intermediates between the manufacturer and the customer.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Oh. But the bazaari still seem to be the rich people.

M.A.R.

Bazaar is a narrow place that has a roof and there are shops on each side.

tchrist

20:08

@Mitch Agree.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well, if you're a successful bazaari with three big hypermarkets, why not. But that's the same for every profession.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Oh. I thought it was a metaphor for all business people, not just rug and spice sellers at the market

M.A.R.

And there are never many successful people in each profession.

@Mitch Well, as a half-Persian native the only implication for me is the guy who you see sell something to you.

Mitch

@tchrist haha stop it you're making me read!

Hey that was 2 years ago.

tchrist

> If idioms by their words invoke
some special meaning hard to guess,
then no, this turn of phrase you’ll note
is none of those: it’s for the stress.

Instead it turns the word around
to better fit its count and line
and measure beats out as they sound,
this more for meter than for rhyme.

Mitch

20:11

I'm not against commenting itself (I think a lot of times it is almost necessary for the content of the questions and answers)...

but rather I am annoyed lately about empty discussions of on-topicness, and ontopicness wars.

tchrist

Indeed.

Mitch

@tchrist nice: invoke and note.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well, you're not the only one.

3

Q: Do we focus more on building a database of answers, or helping individual learners?

Half the time when I see people post a question, there is more focus on the inadequacies of the question than on actually answering it. It shouldn't have been asked because it's a duplicate. It's put on hold because it's off-topic (proof-reading request seems to be the main reason). It has the li...

discussion

Mitch

@M.A.R. good point

@M.A.R. the other half? (please ignore if asking is weird)

M.A.R.

@Mitch My mother tongue is Azeri Turkish, but the official language of Iran is Persian.

Mitch

20:20

@M.A.R. I read the wiki article, and it is confusingly complex, Also, since it is written in English, probably biased somehow in multiple hidden ways.

M.A.R.

So I'm as fluent as a native speaker but quite not one.

Mitch

@M.A.R. but that's not uncommon in the NW (Azeri or mixed parents)

@M.A.R. How far away is Azeri from Turkish?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Yep

@Mitch The Turkish they speak in Turkey, or Azerbaijan?

Mitch

(because Dari in Afghanistan is essentially Farsi spoken with a funny accent)

@M.A.R. in Turkey. I thought that Azeri is the only Turkish-like thing spoken in Azerbaijan/Tabriz)

M.A.R.

We almost perfectly understand Azerbaijani. Turkey-ish, though, about half of it, and when they're not talking fast

Turkey-ish adopted a lot of English and Arabic words we didn't, and for very common things.

So it's a bit obscure.

Mitch

20:25

So Azeri nd Azerbaijani are mostly the same (different accents /some words)?

M.A.R.

Yep.

Mitch

And Turkey Turkish about half and you can make sense of newspapers partly?

M.A.R.

The difference is almost BrE versus AmE with a little bit bigger difference in vocabulary

@Mitch I can't read or write it as I'm not familiar with the alphabet much.

Mitch

oh.

what?

Modern Turkish uses the roman alphabet

M.A.R.

I can understand almost half of what they say and even more if I paid more attention.

Mitch

20:27

Or does azerbaijani use cyrillic?

or what are you saying?

M.A.R.

AFAIK Azerbaijani is divided, but it does use Roman.

@Mitch I can't get to pronounce what's written correctly most of the time.

Mitch

Argh...I could keep talking but I gotta run and do actual things. Goddammit real world! shakes fist

M.A.R.

Esp. the verbs.

Mitch

sorry...gotta run.

M.A.R.

And I should sleep. It's midnight.

Night

Tonepoet

21:45

@tchrist Both halves of my name, as well as the compound word they form, are misnomers insofar as actually describing me goes so it's not too much of a shame. =P

Cerberus

23:26

@RegDwigнt From an article about people's reaction to Trump's election:

> Misschien is dit geloof in de Laatste Dagen gewoon een restant van de befaamde joods/christelijke traditie.

How appropriate.

nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/11/20/…

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…