English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

05:01

> It was the holiday when we went to our honeymoon.

Robusto

@Færd You can use that instead of when. In fact, that's probably more common.

"That was the day that I got my wisdom teeth removed."

Actually, it's probably more common just to drop that or when in conversation.

"That was the day I got my wisdom teeth removed."

Færd

> ? It was the holiday that we went to Antarctica.

It's like saying This is the house that I live.

Robusto

It was the holiday we went to on our honeymoon.

Færd

Corrected.

Robusto

This is the house I live in.

Færd

05:04

Yes. Or This is the house where I live.

Robusto

That's less likely to be heard.

Færd

I think when and where equal that ... in or in which.

After some common nouns the in can drop; eg, place, day, etc.

But I'm not sure if that can always happen.

Robusto

I don't think you're hearing me. I'm telling you that for most purposes, native speakers don't use them at all.

Færd

Ah, OK. That's the practical answer.

Not the exact answer to my question though. Or maybe I'm missing something.

Robusto

"That happened on the day I was born." Not "That happened on the day that I was born" or "That happened on the day when I was born."

Færd

05:07

Yes. I understand.

When would you include the when?

Never?

Robusto

You would include it when there is a possibility for ambiguity.

Færd

There are 1312 instances of "the day when" in COCA.

My question is, when is it not possible to replace that when with that?

> I look forward to the day when an act of terrorism by self-proclaimed Muslims will be universally dismissed

Robusto

That's a different usage.

Færd

> This was going to be the holiday when you didn't gain that typical 5 extra pounds!

Robusto

@Færd In that case I would always use when.

Færd

05:11

Thank you! Why?

Robusto

I'm not really sure. It just feels more like it's building to a specific time expression.

@Færd Either would work here.

Færd

Could you pinpoint the difference between those two examples?

Robusto

> I look forward to the day that makes me a grandparent.

I think maybe it might have something to do with an independent clause vs. a dependent clause? Not sure ... probably not.

Færd

But not I look forward to the day that I become a grandparent, perhaps?

Robusto

Nah, that can't be it.

@Færd Either would work in that sentence.

Færd

05:15

I see.

Robusto

Maybe it's definite vs. indefinite article ...

Færd

Hmm..

Robusto

Nah, that's not it either.

> I look forward to a/the day when all children, black and white, can play together in friendship.

Either article works there.

Færd

@Robusto I guess I understand your point there.

When the time-word is considered as a time frame, it's more likely to be when.

Robusto

Yeah, the thing about native speakers is that they don't analyze things like this. They just know what sounds right and what doesn't.

@Færd Pretty much.

Færd

05:19

I think language impression is just an illusion. Even for native speakers. The thing about them is that they agree on relatively more things.

Robusto

Not sure what you mean by "language impression" ... also, what is your native tongue?

Færd

Farsi.

(AKA Persian)

By language impression I mean what sounds right/wrong to you.

Robusto

I know nothing of the language. All I know of Farsi is that I could never understand the English of a QA person I used to work with who was from Iran.

Færd

Haha!

Robusto

@Færd Well, I don't think that is just an illusion at all. The way a word is used can cause a listener to make all kinds of conscious and subconscious judgments about the speaker.

Færd

05:23

People disagree on most every thing of that sort. But they do have common views, statistically.

The statistical approach is what makes grammar (and ...) objective.

At least for me, who don't have the native self-authority.

Thanks for the time and the insightful comments, @Robusto.

Robusto

@Færd I'm sure in Farsi you make judgments about people all the time based on use of a single word in a single context, or the way it's pronounced. This person is from the country, or that person is a reactionary, etc.

Færd

Gotta scram. o/

Robusto

Yeah, me too.

user227867

05:37

Thanksgiving is coming, isn't it? I should eat a whole chicken for the occasion. =P

user227867

After that comes Christmas, so another whole chicken.

user227867

It feels strange using Windows again after more than five years using only Linux. It feels foreign to me now.

user227867

There is a brand of yoghurt called llao llao. If anyone knows how to pronounce it, please tell me. One person told me it is Spanish and pronounced as yau yau.

user227867

It says it is the number one yoghurt store in Europe. Don't know if that is true either.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy What made you switch back to Windows?

user227867

09:35

@Tonepoet I really wanted to use Office again, and Windows is the best way to use Office. There is no Office for Linux, unless you use Wine, which does not work well, or Mac, which is more expensive than Windows and does not have updates for so long. I got Office 2016 together with Windows 10 at a very low price, brand new, from an exhibition.

user227867

@Tonepoet I got a Lenovo Ideapad 110. It is very well built and has a huge screen for the low price! Even comes with built in camera, microphone, and optical disc drive. Keypad is easily cleanable compared to other kinds I have used. Highly recommended.

Tonepoet

I don't think I've ever used the whole office suite. I remember Microsoft Word 6 though...

user227867

Both Windows 10 and Office 2016 are supported until 2025, so I can use them for at least 9 more years.

user227867

They were released last year, so now is a good time to get them both.

user227867

But I don't know the price you need over there!

user227867

09:39

Seriously, at the price I got it yesterday, I would ask my whole class to get it if I were a teacher or something.

user227867

I must add that it just froze on me, but that happens now and then too on any other system

user227867

Maybe because I have not started configuring it properly yet

user227867

I am also kind of sick of using Firefox and Chrome, and this now comes with a new browser Edge to replace Internet Explorer

Tonepoet

I wouldn't know really, the last Windows version I used is windows 7.

user227867

I am also getting used to the keypad which is spaced slightly differently from what I used before

user227867

09:43

@Tonepoet Are you on W7 now?

Tonepoet

I'm still on ubuntu. I misplaced my rubbing alcohol.

So I wasn't able to clean off my C.P.U's die. Oh well...

user227867

I used Linux for over five years, and I think I am still gonna prefer Winddows

Tonepoet

Also, poor I.E. It was just a few years ago when she was being touted as the greatest thing yet, and now she's already being replaced?

Internet Explorer 11 - The [ANIME] Trailer!

►

user227867

Hmm, that must be you, lol

user227867

I have an old desktop which my mum will be using and an old laptop which my father will be using. I didn't buy them though. They were sort of gotten free of charge ten years ago because my mum worked in a computer company.

user227867

09:49

This is the first computer that I actually chose and bought myself, so it feels special

user227867

I guess it is cheap cos the processor is not the latest, but if you don't need it for gaming, it will do well

Tonepoet

Actually that was Internet Explorer's official mascot in Japan. She was derived from a popular series of unofficial mascots for various operating systems known as O.S.-Tans...

OS-tan

The OS-tan is an Internet phenomenon or meme that originated within the Japanese Futaba Channel. The OS-tan are the moe anthropomorphism/personification of several operating systems by various amateur Japanese artists. The OS-tan are typically depicted as women, with the OS-tan representative of Microsoft Windows operating systems usually depicted as sisters of varying ages. Though initially appearing only in fan work, the OS-tans proved popular enough that Microsoft branches in Singapore and Taiwan used the OS-tan concept as the basis for ad campaigns for Internet Explorer and Microsoft Silverlight...

user227867

I think I will need a few days to figure out where all the settings are. It feels quite different from XP or Vista I have used long ago

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Yeah. Games can be demanding.

user227867

@Tonepoet I also got a very nice pair of headphones for free yesterday. The sound is solid! Boom boom!

Tonepoet

09:52

@JasperLoy What brand are they?

user227867

@Tonepoet Panasonic. And it looks huge, lol. Very comfortable on the ears, those big ones that fit properly with cushioning

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Do they have a model number on the earcups, or maybe the headband?

user227867

@Tonepoet No, and I threw away the casing. It came free with the laptop, so I did not choose it.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Oh, I see.

user227867

@Tonepoet But they look normal, just that I would not buy them if they did not come free, and they are really nice.

user227867

09:57

Actually I must say that using headphones instead of using none is way better. The sound quality you get is just soooo different, lol

Tonepoet

Esp. when compared to laptop speakers.

user227867

When I wore the headphones yesterday and listened to some opera, it was soooo heavenly, lol

user227867

I felt I was transported back years ago when I was listening using similar phones in my middle school library to The Three Tenors

user227867

Back then, I listened to The Three Tenors almost every school day. Did you know that? That is how I learnt to sing, lol

user227867

I never took any music or vocal lessons anywhere that really helped me to sing

Tonepoet

10:01

Of course I did not know that. You never told me before. XP

user227867

Lessons are overrated if you cannot find good teachers. Here in Antarctica, there are not many good voice teachers

Tonepoet

Perhaps you shall have better luck in the U.S.A.

user227867

Well, now I just wanna do some long division and win the Abel Prize, lol

user227867

In my winning speech I would tell the audience that Tonepoet taught me long division, lol

Tonepoet

When you do, you can buy some of these! :-P

user227867

10:03

@Tonepoet My one looks almost as expensive as that!

user227867

I am beginning to like this Lenovo Ideapad so much I wish I can use it for 20 years instead of just 10. Hopefully, the software is still usable then. =P

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Hmm, those are actually the most expensive ones on the market to my recollection, as long as you don't count the Orpheus headphones...

user227867

In fact, the laptop speakers are actually pretty good too

user227867

Actually, I have not installed Office yet. The guys will give it to me on Tue, because they did not carry stock yesterday. I think maybe I just need to key in the product key, cos the program is kind if installed already.

user227867

The product key is actually 25 digits, LOL

user227867

10:08

It's actually about half the price of the laptop itself

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy I think I'll stick to Open Office myself.

user227867

@Tonepoet Aha, might be good enough if you don't need the Equation Editor in Office. That one is way better than the free versions.

Tonepoet

Heck, I probably don't need anything much more than simpletext:

SimpleText

SimpleText is the native text editor for the Apple classic Mac OS. SimpleText allows editing including text formatting (underline, italic, bold, etc.), fonts, and sizes. It was developed to integrate the features included in the different versions of TeachText that were created by various software development groups within Apple. It can be considered similar to Windows' WordPad application. In later versions it also gained additional read only display capabilities for PICT files, as well as other Mac OS built-in formats like Quickdraw GX and QTIF, 3DMF and even QuickTime movies. SimpleText can...

user227867

@Tonepoet It sounds good.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Ignore the "Later versions" part. XP

Shafizadeh

13:00

Which one is correct?

- I appreciate him
- I appreciate of him
- I appreciated him

tchrist

The of is spurious.

That preposition should connect two nouns.

Shafizadeh

ah I see, thx

tchrist

@JasperLoy Spell /ˈnʊgət/

user227867

14:36

@tchrist Nougat? I don't usually eat nougat though.

tchrist

Right answer.

user227867

I was thinking it might be nouggat, lol.

tchrist

Apparently in the UK some people say [ˈnuːɡɑ:].

user227867

I certainly won't say nugget, because I understand English IPA at least. =P

Mitch

@JasperLoy MS equation editor? Worst UI ever

The Donald Trump of math typesetting

Cerberus

15:17

@Færd When the subordinate clause is non-restrictive?

Or when there is no 'antecedent' that is a noun of time?

Cf the reason that/why.

Cerberus

15:52

:33619950 No longer necessary?

tchrist

Yeah, I figured it out.

Cerberus

I saw 11 events.

OK.

tchrist

So did I. At first. In both.

Now I see 12 events, but an incogniwindow sees only 11.

The things we do for science.

Cerberus

I still see 11.

tchrist

Yep, that's what I wanted to know, thanks.

This is because of the new meta question; I needed to know for sure what normal humans saw, to make sure they saw the bumpers.

The non-admin timeline link is something of an accident, fallout from the admin version.

Cerberus

15:59

Perhaps you need a handful of sock puppets.

tchrist

Most mods have some; I've never bothered.

Shog has a post on meta somewhere talking about why you would want that. Now I see what he means.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Is it this one?

86

A: How should sockpuppets be handled on Stack Exchange?

How can I be sure I'm looking at a sockpuppet? You can't ever be 100% sure. What you think is a sockpuppet could in fact be my good friend Nog Shine, who loves everything I write, copies my writing style, and uses my computer to vote and post stuff when I step away for coffee. But in practice, ...

tchrist

Yup!

> Cerca de 432 resultados (0.53 segundos) Quizás quisiste decir: burocratese

No Google my love, I really did mean bureaucratese after all. The burrocracia can speak for itself.

Tonepoet

16:16

@tchrist Perhaps they can, but they probably should not do so. They always sound like an … when they do.

tchrist

16:49

> While it may not be a violation of due process to enforce a desuetudinal law, the fact that a law has long gone unenforced may present a bar to standing in a suit to prevent its future enforcement.

I wonder whether to blame that word on the lawyerly study of Latin, or on Law French?

French has désuétude for obsolescence, but we've lost the accent marks for that word in English. Latin had desuetudo from desuetus, the perfect(ly:) passive participle of desuesco, from de- + suesco(/suecsere/suevi/suetum); see also asuesco, consuesco, mansuesco.

But “desuetudinal law”, seriously? Is that a term of art?

3

A: Is 'disabilitated' a real word?

Rather than starting my inquiry by looking directly at disabilitated, I decided to do some research into the term disabilitation, on the theory that if the latter word exists, the former word is almost inevitable. The old (and young) history of 'disabilitation' A quick Google Books search tu...

Simply splendid!

Cerberus

@tchrist What is the problem with that?

I don't know the context, but it seems fairly clear?

tchrist

It does. To me. But it was a word that I didn't know when I was in high school. I remember learning it in college and connecting it to the French I was then studying.

I don't know why they don't call it obsolete law. There may be some nuance here.

Let me ask another way: isn’t that a very long word for disuse? :)

Or disused, perhaps.

Are disuse(d) and unuse(d) the same?

Oh oh oh.

disusance

== Anglais == === Étymologie === Étymologie manquante ou incomplète. Si vous la connaissez, vous pouvez l’ajouter en cliquant ici. === Nom commun === disusance Désaccoutumance, désuétude. It were yet better to endure a Cough, than by Disusance for ever to lose the Commerce of the common Life in an Action of a so great use. — (Charles Cotton, Essays of Michael Seigneur de Montaigne, Book III, chap. 13, vol. 3, Londres, 1711, p. 419) Encores vaudroit-il mieux souffrir un reume, que de perdre pour jamais, par desaccoustumance, le commerce de la vie commune, en action de si grand usage. — ...

> disusance
Désaccoutumance, désuétude.
It were yet better to endure a Cough, than by Disusance for ever to lose the Commerce of the common Life in an Action of a so great use. — (Charles Cotton, Essays of Michael Seigneur de Montaigne, Book III, chap. 13, vol. 3, Londres, 1711, p. 419)

I fear that disusance now goes unused in PDE, although apparently not in 1711.

Désaccoutumance, yum.

Cerberus

17:10

I have heard something like accoutumir used in Portuguese.

Acccotumir-se, I don't know.

tchrist

Well, there’s an acostumar.

That "o" being unstressed is a /u/.

And more reduced.

acostumar

Verb: acostumar ‎(first-person singular present acostumo, past participle acostumat)

(transitive) to accustom, to make accustomed
acostumar ‎(first-person singular present indicative acostumo, past participle acostumado)
(transitive with a) to accustom
(takes a reflexive pronoun, transitive with a) to get used to

The acostumar-se reflexive is for getting used to things.

Does anyone know where the impetus to label sentences like this one ungrammatical may come from?

> Those on the bottom did not have the ability, nor the opportunity, to get to the top.

Who is telling people they cannot use nor but that neither should have preceded it?

blames ~~ill~~ post-literacy

Cerberus