English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

22:03

@Cerberus yeah, but so many interfaces on windows are bad, from a usability perspective. I don't use a Mac, so I have no idea how good or bad their standard is, but there are certain things that make life easier, and things that make life harder for a user. Microsoft initially ignored all that (all the work from the 1970s that lead to the desktop paradigm), then come XP it started to seep back in, but still not uniformly and the other software developers outside MS did not necessarily take heed

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Right, that is true; but does the bad interface really stop you from using the program or enjoying it as much as otherwise?

So I generally encourage uniformity, but I wouldn't want to enforce it.

Hey, I also wonder how Apple tests applications for viruses and harmful code.

Any idea how they do it, and how reliable their method would be?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it depends on the user. if they are determined no amount of crappy usability will put them off, but a lot of users cannot use software proficiently because of the trrible inteface

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I suppose that's true.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I don't know. I guess they could run it on a system and see what it does

Cerberus

But much less software will be developed for your platform if users can only install that which you have actively approved of end tested first.

Matt Эллен

22:09

or, if they have the code, then they could analyse bits of it and look for trouble spots, like in the network code, or the unicode stuff

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Wouldn't it be easy to code around that? Just make a virus that only acts after a few months.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus this is true

@Cerberus the checking is not so much to stop malicious programmes, but to make sure a programme is not badly made

Cerberus

Bad in what sense, then?

Matt Эллен

Mac can be targeted with a virus through flash, pdf or some other cross platform format just like any other system. Especially now that they use x86 architecture, like normal PCs, rather than the motorola chips they used to use

@Cerberus primarily from a usability perspective

Cerberus

Arg Apple jargon! What does that mean?

Matt Эллен

22:16

what have I jargonified?

sorry, I forget myself

Cerberus

> from a usability perspective

I don't know what this means, sorry...

Matt Эллен

I meant that apple will be checking that an app conforms to their standards of what they think a customer will find easy to use. Anything that fails is bad.

> The app approval process is in place to ensure that applications are reliable, perform as expected, and are free of explicit and offensive material. We review every app on the App Store based on a set of technical, content, and design criteria. This review criteria is now available to you in the App Store Review Guidelines. These guidelines are designed to help you prepare your iOS and Mac OS X apps for the approval process.

so I guess they don't want the app to crash or otherwise look shit

Cerberus

OK.

But they also block all kinds of programs for private reasons.

Matt Эллен

The OS manufacturer often gets blamed when an application performs badly, because people don't know better

Cerberus

In any case, my question about the malicious/harmful code was more or less a separate question.

@MattЭллен Is that really true? I suppose if the adverse effects occur when they're not using the application.

Matt Эллен

22:24

@Cerberus it certainly is for Windows

Cerberus

Then I just think, hmm, it could be anything.

I would never blame Windows.

Matt Эллен

yeah, me too, but we're more experienced than most :)

Cerberus

Right.

So you're saying Apple is for dumb users?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's true!

@Cerberus dumb might be a bit harsh.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Matt Эллен

22:25

they like their apps to work without hassle everytime

Cerberus

Don't let Bob or Rob hear it, our very own Mac fanboys.

Matt Эллен

which is reasonable, since they don't want to have to understand how complex software really is

Cerberus

You know what would make sense?

Matt Эллен

what?

Cerberus

If users without administrative privileges were only allowed to install programs from some central, approved repository, while administrators could install any program.

But perhaps that is already the case on Mac?

Matt Эллен

22:27

that is the case, on windows and linux, now

Cerberus

Really?

OK.

Good.

Matt Эллен

most people don't know because most people run as admin

at home, anyway

on windows

Cerberus

Do they?

Even people who don't understand much about computers, like most people?

Matt Эллен

yeah! it's the default setup on windows

Cerberus

Hmm I see.

But does Windows even have a repository?

Matt Эллен

22:29

sorry, where I said linux, I meant ubuntu

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus c:\program files

MetaEd

These days, Windows users run without admin privileges.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ehh...what?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus that's the default repository for your programmes

@MetaEd but they're just an "are you sure?" click away from them

MetaEd

22:31

Correct.

Matt Эллен

temporary as that is

Cerberus

I mean some place on the internet where a list of "safe" applications is stored, in which the OS searches if you want to install a new program.

MetaEd

It's analogous to sudo(1).

Cerberus

Perhaps I used the wrong term.

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd yeah

@Cerberus oh, I see. no there isn't one of those.

such things do exist for Ubuntu

and other distros

a list of programmes approved by Canonical

MetaEd

22:33

I was gonna say ... put the unapproved programs up against the wall? :-)

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Not for Mac?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, yeah, totally for Mac

the app store

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

sorry, I'm losing the plot a little :D

Cerberus

So what if you want to install something that isn't in this "store" (I hate that word already: I want freeware!)?

And is there free software in this store?

Matt Эллен

22:35

well, you can for Mac, i assume, just downlaod and install something. I'm not sure how easy it is for iPhone, etc.

@Cerberus I don't know

Cerberus

Hmm OK.

MetaEd

Not a question about English.

1

Q: What was the original purpose and origin of complimentary closes?

Emails and letters commonly end with a closing phrase such as Yours faithfully, Jonny McJoe ...but I never understood the reason why such a thing would come up in the first place. Maybe it's because letters were (a long time ago) longer and better written, possibly a glorified form of co...

Cerberus

And what if you have bought something once, thrown your computer in the canal on a bad day, then want to reinstall it on some other Mac?

Or if you have installed a different OS?

Matt Эллен

well, installing a different OS on Mac hardware is non-trivial

do-able, but not easy

if you install a different OS then most, if not all, of your programmes will not work. although Mac OS is based on unix, it's not unix

Cerberus

Oh, hmm, that's bad.

Matt Эллен

22:39

most programmes are not easily ported between OSs

Cerberus

So will you be able to download a fitting version of that program you have already paid for?

Matt Эллен

for you other OS? not from the app store, it only serves Apple customers

MetaEd

Most, if not all, of your installers and binary executables will not work. I assume you are talking about shrinkware?

Matt Эллен

yeah, executables

Cerberus

@MattЭллен No, I mean, for your newer Apple OS, if you install a new Apple OS on the same box.

@MetaEd Shrinkware?

MetaEd

22:40

Shrink wrapped software.

Off the shelf software that you would have to buy again.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, well that will depend on the developer of the software - if they've made it compatible with a newer version of Mac OS

and if the updated version is a free upgrade

Cerberus

@MetaEd So the store doesn't know that you have already bought it and lets you redownload the appropriate version?

@MattЭллен Wow, they say it as if it were a huge concession.

MetaEd

MacOS, at least the latest version, is UNIX. It has been certified.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus ayup!

Cerberus

And how about if you lose your computer and you want to reinstall it on the same OS?

Matt Эллен

22:42

@MetaEd ok, cool. I don't keep up with it

@Cerberus that would probably be fine. I've never used the app store

Cerberus

But it does keep a record of what you have bought?

Matt Эллен

yes

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

I guess

Cerberus

That is something.

Matt Эллен

22:43

like a normal store

like steam or gamers gate or microsoft

Cerberus

OK.

Allmyapps is coming close to a Windows central repository.

I believe it has 10k programs already.

Matt Эллен

if I trashed my machine (gods forbid) Steam would let me have all my games again, no question

Cerberus

OK good.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus wow, I've not heard of it. sounds usefull

@MetaEd so, what limitations are there, do you know, to running Linux software on the Mac?

MetaEd

You would need to avoid using Linux interfaces that don't exist in UNIX.

For example you would want to avoid making any assumptions about the system administration tools, which are not a part of the UNIX standard.

that's if you are asking as a programmer.

Cerberus

22:48

freewaregenius.com/2012/01/11/…

Crashplan can back up your files to a friend's computer and vice versa.

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd yeah, I wasn't aware how compatible linux and mac os are

MetaEd

If you are asking as a person who is just buying software off the shelf, then the answer is quite different. A Linux CD is not going to run on MacOS.

Linux is pretty close to UNIX.

Cerberus

crashplan.com/consumer/crashplan.html

MetaEd

As a programmer you can code to the UNIX standard and have very little difficulty running on Linux.

Cerberus

Can't Unix and Windows somehow converge?

MetaEd

22:50

Or you can simply code to some application standard that is OS independent. For example you can code in Perl or Python or Java and just punt the whole issue of OS.

Cerberus

Really? Python works everywhere?

Matt Эллен

yes :)

I think there's even a port for Android phones

MetaEd

UNIX and Windows have some issues, but you can write to the UNIX standard and mostly have your code work with Windows. Windows, with an optional download, is pretty good at UNIX compatibility.

Cerberus

Wowie.

MetaEd

On the other hand, if you write to Windows interfaces, good luck getting your code to work anywhere else, unless you have a Windows emulator such as wine to run it on.

That's the difference between a standard and an implementation.

user19161

22:55

@matt Did you have booze on a Friday night?

Matt Эллен

I've had a little

user19161

I have psychic powers, I know that you drank.

Matt Эллен

uhuh?

oh, i misread that as what

:D

user19161

@MattЭллен The effects have begun setting in!

user19161

Who is Tortoise?

Matt Эллен

22:57

ha! no that effect is always there

Cerberus

@MetaEd Hmm so is Windows to blame for forcing programmers into weird practices, or is Unix to blame for being inflexible as to what it accepts?

►

Would you say this accent resembles a Scandinavian accent at all?

MetaEd

@Cerberus No, and no.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Oh. Then how come it is easier to port from Unix to Window than the other way around?

user19161

@Cerberus That's the thing about Windows, easy to go out from but hard to climb in through.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus uh, I thought it was Dutch :p

user19161

23:00

@MattЭллен I might even think that is Cerb.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Many operating systems are UNIX certified, so the port from one operating system to another is easy if your code is written to the UNIX standard.

On the other hand, if you write to the Windows standard, you are either limited to Windows operating systems or you have a bigger porting job ahead of you.

user19161

@mahnax Boo!

MetaEd

It is true that if you write to the UNIX standard you can make the same claim. The difference is simply that UNIX is much more widely implemented than Windows.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yes, it is; but it suddenly struck me that a Dutch accent and a Scandinavian accent are perhaps not so very different as I used to think.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Hello.

@Cerberus He sounds a little Finnish, but not quite.

Cerberus

23:03

@MetaEd I asked because you said this:

> you can write to the UNIX standard and mostly have your code work with Windows

@Mahnax Hmm ok!

MetaEd

@Cerberus yes, certainly, because Windows provides UNIX compatibility.

user19161

It seems that "onus" and "per se" are commonly used, but I never use these myself.

Cerberus

Ah OK, so "Many operating systems are UNIX certified" includes Windows?

Oh, God, I see a Scot with a kilt walking in the snow.

MetaEd

@Cerberus I do not know if Windows is formally certified. I think it is, at least when you download and install the compatibility add-on.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you could go and check if he's a true Scot...

Cerberus

23:08

@MetaEd OK.

@MattЭллен No thanks!

MetaEd

But the point is that if you write to the UNIX standard you will not have a lot of work to do when you want the software to run on Windows.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

Good.

user19161

@Mahnax A single present for you.

MetaEd

Another issue that you will quickly run into is user interface. The UNIX standard is not a standard for user interface. So if you want to display a window, menus, etc., you have another standard to choose.

Mahnax

23:10

@WillHunting Thanks!

MetaEd

For example you might want to write your graphical code by using the Qt interfaces, because Qt is available cross platform.

user19161

@Mahnax Do you have work later?

Mahnax

@WillHunting not today.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Qt, huh? I'm actually using this program called QTAddressbar or something.

QT Breadcrumbs Address Bar.

MetaEd

Well, possibly the developer named it after the graphics toolkit he used.

user19161

23:19

@Mahnax Very good. Now that I have 15k I may retire from answering questions.

Cerberus

Probably.

MetaEd

Or maybe it stands for something different.

Cerberus

He has made several other toolbar-like things also starting with QT.

user19161

Qt (framework)

Qt (pronounced officially as cute , though often unofficially pronounced as Q.T. ) is a cross-platform application framework that is widely used for developing application software with a graphical user interface (GUI) (in which cases Qt is classified as a widget toolkit), and also used for developing non-GUI programs such as command-line tools and consoles for servers. Qt is most notably used in Autodesk Maya,The Foundry's Nuke, Adobe Photoshop Elements, OPIE, Skype, VLC media player, VirtualBox, and Mathematica, and by the European Space Agency, DreamWorks, Google, HP, KDE, Lucasfilm, P...

Mahnax

@WillHunting Hmm.

Cerberus

23:21

Oh, pronounced as cute!

user19161

@Mahnax What is your favourite Starbucks beverage?

Mahnax

@WillHunting White Mocha Frappucino.

user19161

@Mahnax Notice I used "beverage" to emulate someone.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Heh.

user19161

0

Q: When do you use "Cheers" instead of "Thank you" in spoken english?

A lot of time, people say cheers instead of thank you. As I am not a native speaker, I wonder in which case you can. It is used a lot for polite gestures, such as holding a door or giving fire. It is also more used if you know the person you are talking about. Are they any rules ?

british-english expression-choice

user19161

23:29

Can the British answer this?

Matt Эллен

"giving fire"?

user19161

@MattЭллен You can post your answer there. "I aM dRuNk. QeD."

Matt Эллен

no

I'm not drunk

I am over the limit that is safe to drive

Mahnax

Tsks

Matt Эллен

luckily, I have no where to drive

user19161

23:32

@MattЭллен Good, then you don't have to park.

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax that is one drink.

Mahnax

Well, I have some housework to do, so I'm off.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting I no rite?

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Hmm, really?

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax sure, any impairment to your motor skills is bad.

that's how I think about it

the legal limit is different

Cerberus

23:33

Okay I'm staying in too.

I would have gone out but for the snow. And the laziness.

Matt Эллен

you're staying in? (secretly pleased) But I thought you had somewhere exciting to go!

user19161

I go exciting places in my mind.

Cerberus

I planned to, but I got little sleep, so...

Matt Эллен

awww. what kept you up?

Cerberus

Where have you been drinkin?

Matt Эллен

23:35

in my flat

the cold kept me in

user19161

I am drinking water now.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Nothing: I just went to bed early, which meant I woke up after 3 hours (that's why you saw me in the morning).

But I'm going to try again tonight, and before you know it I will have semi-normal sleep cycle!

Matt Эллен

oh, that's not much sleep.

user19161

Water is the most important drink in this world.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus here's hoping!

Cerberus

23:36

Well, I took a nap of about three hours that I woke up from an hour ago.

So I'm all right.

@MattЭллен I'm sure your flat is fun!

@WillHunting I am shocked! No tea?

user19161

@Cerberus His flat is fun and not flat!

Matt Эллен

hmmm, I'm not so sure, but I'll side with you this time

user19161

@Cerberus Same!

Cerberus

Some people live in only a single room.

I used to, before my current flat.

So we should be glad, or something.

Matt Эллен

true, I do have benefit of many rooms

Cerberus

23:38

Many, even!

How many?

And what do you count?

user19161

@MattЭллен So giving fire means sharing lighter as OP just said.

Matt Эллен

well, if I include everything that's not the hall... 5 rooms

user19161

@MattЭллен HB!

Cerberus

So bathroom counts?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

23:39

How about storage room?

Matt Эллен

well, I have a second bedroom, which is what I use for storage

user19161

I think his broom also counts as a room.

Cerberus

And how about a kitchen attached to a sitting room, i.e. with no door in between?

Matt Эллен

I don't could the wardrobes

user19161

A broom is a room with a b attached.

Matt Эллен

23:41

@Cerberus is there a divider?

Cerberus

Not really, but they were no doubt two rooms before the renovation.

Sitting part is broader, looking from the front side.

Matt Эллен

in one flat I had the kitchen and the sitting room were one, but in my friend's house he has a wall between them, but no door, just an arch - so that is two

Cerberus

Okay, if you must have a divider, then mine count as one.

And how about a separate loo?

Matt Эллен

loo is in the bathroom

but if you have a room with just a loo, then I would count it

Cerberus

What if it's separate? Does it count?

Ahh.

So bedroom, sitting room / kitchen, bathroom, loo, storage room. That makes 5 too!

user19161

23:43

A loo is for pee and poo too. Repeat after me.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus we are equals :)

Cerberus

But one usually only counts that as two here.

I think yours count as three, mine as two.

Matt Эллен

I guess, in an advert this would be a 2 bed flat, with sitting room and separate kitchen. I don't remember how they counted the rooms

hey! I spelt remember right!

that's a first

user19161

@MattЭллен I just remembered!

Cerberus

Haha.

Matt Эллен

23:45

5

Q: What type of learning mechanism produces a consistent typo?

There is a typographical error that I make and do so every time I try to type a certain word. Whenever I try to type remember, I type remeber. I do this every time. This is different to a regular typo because most typos happen at random, whereas this mistake is guaranteed to occur. It's not a spe...

reinforcement-learning errors motor expertise

user19161

Remember that November is before December. Repeat after me.

Cerberus

In an advert here, it would be called a three-room apartment.

Because you have three rooms that you can actually "live" in.

Matt Эллен

I see! very logical.

Cerberus

Although actually perhaps a kitchens also counts. Especially if there is enough space for a table and chairs.

Matt Эллен

I think one of these sofas is a sofa bed

Cerberus

23:47

Oh, they came with the place?

Matt Эллен

ah, well, there is about enough space to stand in my kitchen

yeah, it's fully furnished

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Should be enough for a foreign worker.

user19161

@MattЭллен The answer is good but does not really address the issue.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus :D I've had to give up my man servant, what with these austere times

user19161

So it remains a mystery.

Cerberus

23:49

@MattЭллен That is awful! I do hope you still have your footmen?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus alas, they were let go at the turn of the century.

Cerberus

It's so hard to find good help these days.

Matt Эллен

so true

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Wow, how have you survived for over a decade without footmen?

user19161

I have no clue why blue is true. Repeat after me.

Cerberus

23:50

^ They said that in the '20s, and they still say it now, groups of women.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting blue is true because nobility is said to have blue blood

Cerberus

Nobility.

user19161

Also octopuses.

user19161

Or are they octopi?

Matt Эллен

octopae?

Cerberus

23:51

By the way, I feel that FF has been getting slower and slower over the past few versions.

Or is it something else?

user19161

@Cerberus I first parsed that as FumbleFingers.

Matt Эллен

really? I haven't noticed. but maybe you're running it harder than me

user19161

Until I saw versions.

Cerberus

You're obsessed with him, clearly.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting me too!

Cerberus

23:52

Then you too.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's just because you revere him

I associate that with you

Cerberus

I suppose I do.

Well, it's rather than I usually agree with him; I don't think his opinions require superhuman abilities.

user19161

@Cerberus Nope, I am only obsessed with this girl who is in Oxford now.

Cerberus

Whom?

user19161

@Cerberus Someone I met on the bus many years ago. But maybe she is getting married soon.

Cerberus

23:54

So you don't know her well?

user19161

@Cerberus Nope, so case closed. QED.

Cerberus

Perhaps you and Jez can compare notes on girls.

Ah OK.

Jez

nice women never want to sleep with you.

that's my notes.

user19161

@Cerberus Nope, I have decided to remain single this life.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus which I find hard to do. I often think what he writes doesn't quite fit

user19161

23:55

But maybe I will find a man if I turn gay one day.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен No? I think he often uses common sense, instead of some linguist's mantra or mindless prescriptivism.

He can be a bit snarky—but I wasn't talking about his style.

Matt Эллен

I just remember myself often thinking "no, that's not quite it"

Cerberus

But I don't often agree with him when the subject is actually linguistics.

user19161

You can agree to disagree about the pedigree. Repeat after me.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm I don't know, perhaps I only remember the cases where I agree withhim.

Matt Эллен

23:58

@Cerberus I suppose we could both be subject to confirmation bias!

Cerberus

Could be!

Matt Эллен

although he wouldn't have such high rep for nothing

Cerberus

But then why do I remember agreeing with him about many things, which I don't with other people?

user19161

I have 15000 which is clearly over 9000!

user19161

@Cerberus Because you are obsessed with him.

Matt Эллен

23:59

@Cerberus your wrongness is amplified by his ;)

Cerberus

I do remember it about PLL, and Kosmo, though Kosmo often laid some slightly unnecessary focus on the avoidance of prescription.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…