English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

SmokeDetector

03:33

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: What does the verb "nig" mean? by a deleted user on english.stackexchange.com

user227867

@Tonepoet I just realised how terrible the printed OALD is. It does not give any example sentences for 'abase' and 'abashed' but gives two useless examples for 'abbey', 'Westminister Abbey' and 'ruined abbey'. I now wonder why it is a world bestseller.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting My personal opinion is that Oxford's rep. relies mostly upon prestige at this point in time.

tchrist

I wish we could give Sven a real badge of honor. He’s a rare gem.

user227867

@tchrist I think if we give him one badge, we have to give you two.

tchrist

@Tonepoet The OED’s prestige is earned. The rest is open to debate.

english.stackexchange.com/users/36232/sven-yargs?tab=answers

user227867

03:49

Maybe if OUP made the 20 volume OED cheaper, more people would buy the set and they would make more money.

tchrist

No serial admiring allowed, but just take a gander at what a great boon he is to the site!

He has three and forty Necromancer badges!

user227867

43 is the bus I take to the hospital.

Tonepoet

@tchrist The O.E.D. is great at doing what it's meant to do, but right now we're talking about ~~N.O.A.D.~~

tchrist

@WillHunting We call those ambulances in English, Jasper.

user227867

@Tonepoet Maybe you were talking about NOAD, but I was talking about OALD.

tchrist

03:52

E2MANYNYMS

user227867

@Tonepoet What do you think of buying a new copy of the MW Unabridged? It is slightly cheaper than the Shorter OED.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting It's considered a descriptivist dictionary and the bulk of it hasn't been updated since 1961, so it's out of date. A more prescriptivist approach would be to buy the Second New International Dictionary.

@WillHunting Okay, I misread. O.A.L.D. is a learner's dictionary and it does its job well enough. I think it does a better job of defining the word doubt than any other dictionary we presently have as well.

user227867

@Tonepoet As a learner's dictionary it should give example sentences for harder words, not trivial examples. That is why I was shocked.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting That's debatable perhaps. I think the job is to give somebody a basic understanding of what most speakers mean. Westminster Abbey is probably a more common context.

Once you get the gist of the core vocabulary, then you can upgrade to something more accurate.

user227867

@Tonepoet I think I will buy the ODE. I will do it tonight. =P

Tonepoet

04:04

Also, however well Oxford defines the word doubt, I think all of the recent dictionaries are inadequate in regard to the countable form. I've been meaning to answer some questions regarding the purportedly "Indian usage" with some information regarding why it's not quite as exotic as it seems.

user227867

@Tonepoet I don't live in India, but it seems strange that doubt can be used to mean question.

user227867

@Tonepoet Anyway, I think I will conclude now that AHD is the best American dictionary. =P

Tonepoet

It's not really that strange. Summarized, "A doubt" is a reason for feeling doubt, so if you're asked what that doubt is, you'll often reply in the form of a question that not only describes the doubt, but gives your correspondent a chance to answer your confusion.

We use "a joy" similarly, and there's a very interesting page in the Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia, amongst all of the other resources I've seen.

I joined E.L.L. for the express purpose of answering one question regarding it but I haven't gotten around to that yet.

I'll email you a link to the page.

tchrist

I give up. Why in the world do you kids say email for mail?

It’s beginning to bother me at work.

user227867

Hmm, isn't email the e version of mail?

tchrist

04:13

It's a fad.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I'm the wrong person to ask @tchrist . If it were up to me, we'd write E. mail.

tchrist

The word mail works perfectly well for all uses.

I rather disapprove of all e-anythings.

user227867

I prefer email to mail and E. mail, FWIW.

tchrist

Why would you use the e- for this?

Do you really think people don't know what you're talking about?

Or that you don't?

user227867

To distinguish clearly and immediately that it is not paper mail?

tchrist

04:14

Disbelieve.

user227867

Of course, in this case, the context is clear.

user227867

But simply adding an e in front makes things immediately very clear.

tchrist

Jasper, have you ever written something to Tonepoet through an alternate medium which isn't this one?

user227867

Nope.

tchrist

Tonepoet, have you ever written Jasper anything using something other than SE?

user227867

04:16

Yes, using email.

Tonepoet

"I sent you some mail."

"Oh really, when should I be expecting it? Is it a package of some sort? I'll have to be at home when it arrives if it is, otherwise It'll get stolen."

"What, you didn't get it already? I just sent it to your computer's inbox."

tchrist

I disbelieve.

You may have typed something, but you cannot have written it.

Otherwise you would have had to have sent him a scan of your handwriting.

user227867

LOL

tchrist

And if you feel that the context makes clear which one it is for this case, I cannot understand all the esilliness obsessionating.

Perhaps you merely ewrote him.

Or somebody pretending to be him.

You really just ewrote ehim an eletter.

user227867

Hmm, now we have another word to think about, namely 'write'.

Tonepoet

04:19

@tchrist E. it. =P

tchrist

I believe I’ve now esaid enough to get eyou guys thinking about matters of serious import ehere.

> Why art thou so oddly yclept, so whimsically named - oh, got it, you play the HARP.

> It also leads to pronouncing two double consonants when you speak the word; cl and pt. Yclept means named as in ‘I have a dog yclept Rover.’

> a lady yclept Eleanora

Tonepoet

@tchrist When I say write I mean something along the lines of "1. To perform the act of forming characters, letters or figures, as representatives of sounds or ideas."

If you wish to argue based upon other provided senses though, I'll be perfectly glad to accept the position that it's an illegitimate use of the word when applying to typing and use E. Write here from now on...

NVZ

04:37

@tchrist what's a good time for mass retagging? I'd like to edit a lot of posts and do retags, but don't wish to flood the "active" feed. So when is the user activity the lowest?

Tonepoet

Also "5. To compose or produce, as an author." is also relevant but checking the definition of author may come a little too close to playing god for my comfort.

tchrist

@NVZ Is there an existing meta post on this?

The e in email is just too precious to xist.

@NVZ What do you propose?

Tonepoet

@tchrist I prefer new words with new meanings to old words taking on new meanings quite significantly. Unnecessary disambiguation is harmless.

tchrist

@Tonepoet What's the difference between your written signature and your printed name?

@Tonepoet It does not mean anything new. It is spurious.

It is a marketing rebranding of an old thing with a new name. Doesn't that bother you?

Tonepoet

04:56

@tchrist The difference in method produces a perceptibly different result. I much prefer specifying email than "snail mail" by quite a bit.

What's the difference between a pen and a pencil?

tchrist

You are not optimizing for the common case. You should.

Huffman failure, here.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Language is not a programming code. I can't delete relevant history.

New concepts need new words if we're going to differentiate.

tchrist

I see no justification for the eexistence of this fad word, and I refuse to use it.

You seem to manage to say send perfectly well. But you of couse meant Esend!

You sent nothing that you did not mail.

Tonepoet

You can send something through any method available to you in this sense of the word: "2. To cause to be conveyed or transmitted; as, to send letters or dispatches from one country to another."

Mail is different though "1. To inclose in a wrapper and direct to a post office. We say, letters were mailed for Philadelphia."

tchrist

SMTP envelopes.

Tonepoet

05:10

The fact that it's something entirely different is why we say e-mail instead of just mail. It achieves the same effect as mail, but reflects the difference in method.

tchrist

I think not.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Do you have a better theory?

tchrist

Marketing.

I've used computers for mail for almost 40 years. This word is a dumb fad that adds nothing but a useless syllable in the attempt to sound trendy.

It is nothing new

It appeared AFTER AOL's notorious "You've got mail!"

Notice no e-.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Isn't that a proof against your point? It should've been "You've got e-mail!" if it was A.O.L's. marketers trying to force it into the public consciousness. Who's the head of this conspiracy?

If anything, use of the word "mail" sounds snappier and more familiar. What marketer would make their name more cumbersome unless there was some need?

tchrist

Distinction.

No other verb associated with the computer has an e prefix. No other noun. Why?????

Tonepoet

05:22

EMac

The eMac, short for education Mac, is a Macintosh desktop computer made by Apple Inc. It was originally aimed at the education market, but was later made available as a cheaper mass market alternative to Apple's second-generation LCD display iMac G4. The eMac was pulled from retail on October 12, 2005 and was sold exclusively to educational institutions thereafter. It was discontinued by Apple on July 5, 2006 and replaced by a cheaper, low-end iMac that, like the eMac, was originally sold exclusively to educational institutions. The eMac design closely resembles the first-generation iMac. Compared...

tchrist

We use normal nouns and verbs for everything but for the muggles' sole foray into our realm.

I will not speak as they who couldn't write a mail program to save their lives do about the things which are in my domain.

Tonepoet

Also I actually do think there were other e- words where e- meant electronic, but they didn't become relevant enough to our daily lives to enter the common vocabulary...

Well, actually:

E-book

An electronic book (or e-book) is a book- or periodical publication made available in digital form, consisting of text, images, or both, readable on computers or other electronic devices. Although sometimes defined as "an electronic version of a printed book", some e-books exist without a printed equivalent. Commercially produced and sold e-books are usually intended to be read on dedicated e-reader devices. However, almost any sophisticated computer device that features a controllable viewing screen can also be used to read e-books, including desktop computers, laptops, tablets and smartphones...

@tchrist Next up is the e-grimoire. ;-)

NVZ

05:41

@tchrist I don't know. I think I'll just stick to flooding the feed every now and then. :)

Tonepoet

Anyway, if it's any consolation @tchrist, at least they're not calling it cybermail or, even worse, virtual mail.

NVZ

@Tonepoet who are 'they'?

Tonepoet

@NVZ Dem dere darned yun' whippasnappas.

NVZ

@Tonepoet looks like it's none of my e-business. :)

Tonepoet

05:59

Heh, I linked to the wrong comment.

Tonepoet

06:14

@WillHunting I have every documented word in the English Language, as of 1934, in my lap. They're heavy.

NVZ

@Tonepoet e-lap?

Tonepoet

@NVZ Oh no, in printed form. The original compact O.E.D. covers first edition and the first 1933 supplement. I also have the India Paper version of Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition which was originally printed in 1934 (there's also an addenda section with additional words, but not very many).

NVZ

Well, lap could mean laptop. I thought so.

@Tonepoet Printed books cannot be in your lap, can they? ;)

Tonepoet

@NVZ Prepositions are the worst words in the language: "IN, in many cases, is equivalent to on. This use of the word is frequent in the Scriptures; as, let fowls multiply in the earth. This use is more frequent in England than in America. We generally use on, in all similar phrases."

Nevertheless it's a good point I suppose. On is perfectly fine and probably more accurate.

user227867

09:24

@Tonepoet Amazing. As heavy as my burdens.

Tonepoet

09:46

@WillHunting The good news then, is that those burdens can be lifted altogether!

RegDwigнt

11:23

@NagarajanShanmuganathan no. Matheism means your God is the word "but". Would you really like being called a buttheist? — RegDwigнt ♦ 27 secs ago

@Cerberus @terdon

terdon

@RegDwigнt :) Heh, good one!

RegDwigнt

Yeah srsly. Liek ppl shud lern greak or sumthen.

terdon

Δαμν στρέιτ!

wordreference.com/gren/%CE%BC%CE%B1

RegDwigнt

αλλά hu akbar.

terdon

That's a good name for a bar, actually: The Alahu Ak

RegDwigнt

11:32

Yeah it would be the bomb.

terdon

Ouch

Although, there used to be a bar in Marseille, which was opposite the largest prison of the region and was called Ici mieux qu'en face (better here than across the street)

RegDwigнt

I would just call that my bar opposite anything. Preferably another bar.

terdon

RegDwigнt

Yahtzee Croshaw, the gaming journalist of Zero Punctuation fame, used to have a bar in Brisbane where you could play all kinds of video games for free. It was called The Mana Bar.

Meet the Mana Bar Team - YAHTZEE

►

NVZ

12:19

What are some common placeholder names like John, Jane, etc?

Ok, no need. Googled em.

RegDwigнt

Willie, Willie, Harry, Stee
Harry, Dick, John, Harry three;
One, two, three Neds, Richard two
Harrys four, five, six... then who?
Edwards four, five, Dick the bad,
Harrys twain and Ned the Lad;
Mary, Bessie, James the Vain,
Charlie, Charlie, James again...
William and Mary, Anna Gloria,
Four Georges, William and Victoria.

NVZ

Wow, thanks, @RegDwigнt

RegDwigнt

Edward seven next, and then
George the fifth in 1910.

NVZ

Shukran. :)

RegDwigнt

Np habibi.

Tonepoet

12:24

@terdon "Hold on for just a moment! I became 99.9% done with your drink in just two minutes! I just need to drive to go to the store and buy the cherry to put on top. I should be back within the hour! Oh, I'm sorry for the delay, I got stuck in traffic for four hours, had to wait in the line for one, and popped my tire on the way back, so I needed to call a tow truck."

RegDwigнt

It looks like you're ordering a beer. Do you need help with that?

Tonepoet

@RegDwigнt Also as long as we're discussing video game bars:

Video Game Confessions: Mario

►

user227867

12:39

The truth is that I am still deciding on which dictionary to get. =P @Tonepoet

NVZ

This is fun! :D

OED records too as a valid verb (a form of tew, one definition of which is To fatigue or tire with hard work). So fill your boots and say Looking forward to seeing you two too to too you. — FumbleFingers 29 mins ago

user227867

@NVZ Will I get flamed for saying OED is the worst dictionary?

NVZ

@WillHunting Depends, are you inflammable? ;P

user227867

Am I valuable or invaluable?

NVZ

@WillHunting First, are you referring to your body or your soul as "I"?

RegDwigнt

12:45

@Tonepoet I have every undocumented word in every language, as of ever, in my head. And it weighs not a gram more than before. Executive summary: you suck at storage.

user227867

@RegDwigнt I prefer to suck Mentos.

Tonepoet

@NVZ It's a personal pronoun and a person is both. >_>

NVZ

@RegDwigнt And I have a pen that can write any language in the world that ever existed. :P

RegDwigнt

I'm a personal pronoun. You're a personal noobnoun.

NVZ

@RegDwigнt Stop nouning stuff.

RegDwigнt

12:50

NOU. n.

Tonepoet

1.

terdon

Ewwww!

NVZ

@Tonepoet Well... That escalated quickly!

user227867

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

terdon

> I

r
e
a
l
l
y

d
o
n
t

w
a
n
t

t
o

NVZ

12:53

@WillHunting Oh, my.

terdon

> s
e
e

t
h
a
t
,

l
e
t
s

j
u
s
t

g
e
t

r
i
d

o
f

i
t
.

RegDwigнt

Family Guy - Republican Town Song

►

NVZ

@terdon Thank you for saving the day!

RegDwigнt

@terdon protip: next time just search the transcript for "russell".

Mar 24 at 23:08, by RegDwigнt

Mar 2 '11 at 13:43, by Robusto

2 hours ago, by RegDwight

Feb 18 at 10:59, by Robusto

13 hours ago, by Robusto

27 secs ago, by RegDwight

2 hours ago, by RegDwight

yesterday, by RegDwight

Feb 7 at 15:38, by RegDwight

Russell's paradox

In the foundations of mathematics, Russell's paradox (also known as Russell's antinomy), discovered by Bertrand Russell in 1901, showed that the naive set theory created by Georg Cantor leads to a contradiction. The same paradox had been discovered a year before by Ernst Zermelo but he did not publish the idea, which remained known only to Hilbert, Husserl and other members of the University of Göttingen. Let R be the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. If R qualifies as a member of itself, it would contradict its own definition as a set containing sets that are not member...

NVZ

I eat paradoxes for breakfast.

RegDwigнt

12:56

Learn English. What you eat is paradoxen.

NVZ

@RegDwigнt Nope, that I eat for lunch.

Time moves slow, somedays.

RegDwigнt

Oh no, not the lunch mob again.

Kit Z. Fox

My back is sooooo itchy right now.

RegDwigнt

I told you not to sleep on chilis.

tchrist

Cockroaches.

Corn flakes.

terdon

13:06

tchrist

> You are pretty chipper for a guy who found out they died for nothing.

Thus perished he from our language.

blames comics

Matt E. Эллен

tell that to Wizards of the Coast

then number of "he or she"s on their cards....

RegDwigнt

Dear Wizards of the Coast,
I blame comics.
Sincerely,
Reginald Kenneth Dwight.

Matt E. Эллен

thanks.

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен That's because all their cards are lettered by bisexuals.

RegDwigнt

13:13

As I happened to comment just a couple hours ago elsewhere on the Internet, I am not from the US so I have no idea what a comics is and don't give a rat's arse about finding out. However, if even Um, err, I can!s themselves start blaming comics, I have to say comics must be the worst.

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon It's from the tattoo healing, so I can't, but thanks, that looks cool.

RegDwigнt

Also, speaking of Yahtzee Croshaw:

Judging First Superman Comic (Judging by the Cover)

►

Matt E. Эллен

@tchrist I look forward to the first "he and she" rules text

RegDwigнt

I blame feminazis. They don't even deserve that name, FFS. Proper nazis had he right at the beginning of their leader's name!

Matt E. Эллен

Mr. Heil

RegDwigнt

13:20

Heil the world, make it a better place. For me and for you and the entire aryan race.

tchrist

Arya was our Eve.

RegDwigнt

Note how there's "good evening" but no "good adaming". That's sexist.

I demand compensation.

tchrist

Godamning is old school.

RegDwigнt

Fo real, straight outta Compton.

Tonepoet

13:52

@RegDwigнt I actually had the opportunity to read that issue online because there was an ebay auction that had page previews. It was a huge deal at the time. The plot of it makes just about as much sense as the video suggests, so I guess you really can judge a book by its cover. =P

RegDwigнt

> Imagine the wonder people must have experienced, picking up a copy of that iconic magazine back then.

Um. None at all whatsoever? Because it was not iconic at that point? And nobody had heard of this idiotman before?

tchrist

I knew it!

You're no Russian!

You’re a Stoot!

RegDwigнt

Stoot is Russian for a misspelled stool. Also, English for a misspelled stool.

Dot your Is and cross your Ls

tchrist

I am not dotty.

RegDwigнt

Dotty is walking the yellow-brick road.

tchrist

14:02

Totes.

Tonepoet

@RegDwigнt I guess "now iconic" would be better, although the information is implied. Also no, they had not, it was his debut.

RegDwigнt

@Tonepoet my issue is not that iconic makes no sense. My issue is that the sentiment as a whole makes no sense.

"Imagine the wonder people must have experienced, picking up a copy of some completely non-iconic dross." is not really fixing the issue, it's only enhancing it.

And it's only made worse by the very next sentence,

> Little did they know how rare their copies were to become.

Well quite.

So. Um. You're admitting no wonder at all because little they knew.

Tonepoet

Nobody said wonder though.

RegDwigнt

I am imagining someone said wonder when they said "imagine the wonder". But I might be imagining it.

Tonepoet

Ah, you're right.

Kit Z. Fox

14:09

Yeah, I agree. If they didn't know it was rare, why would they have wonder about it?

RegDwigнt

Anyway let's drop this I'm interested in the stoot thing way more.

M-W tells me stoot is stout is brave and strong.

Why am I brave and strong? Because no Russian?

Kit Z. Fox

I thought all true Russians were brave and strong.

RegDwigнt

My actual first name does mean "brave and strong defender of the people" or some such, so yeah. Guess I'm a stoot alright.

I am not a misspelled stool tho.

Tonepoet

@KitZ.Fox Well here's the thing, it was wildly popular. A quarter million copies of a comic selling in 1938 sounds tremendous after all things are considered.

Kit Z. Fox

But like Reg said--it wasn't iconic yet. It was a novelty, sure, but novelties aren't wondrous.

RegDwigнt

14:11

Imagine the wonder of buying the exact same thing a quarter million other people have bought. Think different.

NVZ

@KitZ.Fox Only if all Russians are Putins. {grabs popcorn}

RegDwigнt

Some Russians are Ras, others On the Ritz.

Kit Z. Fox

@NVZ that's offensive to the honorable Russian stereotype.

RegDwigнt

In fact from early baby age every Russian learns to count starting with "Ras,..".

Which is doubly peculiar since the word for "one" is "odin".

Yes the norse god.

So clearly putin's machinations are so stronk they predate even putin.

Tonepoet

@KitZ.Fox It's a valid use of the word in a different sense other than what Reg. was implying which is what caught me off guard I suppose. It's not curiousness per-se. "New, unusual, strange, great, extraordinary or not well understood" sound like apt. descriptors.

NVZ

14:16

2

Q: What is the essence of the dispute between Wolfe and Chomsky?

I read the report in Sunday's Observer concerning the dispute between Tom Wolfe (author Kingdom of Speech) and Noam Chomsky (professor emeritus Massachusetts Institute of Technology) over their divergent views on the origins of human speech. Whilst Chomsky maintains that people are born with a "...

linguistics

RegDwigнt

Yes yes. Absolutely. Wonder as in "what the fuck is this nonsense".

Kit Z. Fox

@Tonepoet hmm. Ok. I see what you're saying.

RegDwigнt

But I'm not sure that's bettering things.

Kit Z. Fox

It's not a great word for that.

RegDwigнt

Anyway. Had you told me just this morning that I'd be discussing superman all day, I'd've told you to go visit the cuckoo farm.

Which is a wondrous idiom I have only just invented.

Please buy a million of it.

And now please stand by as I reboot my mind.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Theme

►

Ah. Much better now.

Tonepoet

14:19

@RegDwigнt If you told me this morning that I'd be looking in a thesaurus for an alternative for the word "wonder" in the sense of curiousness I'd have probably asked "Why is that?" myself. =P

NVZ

@RegDwigнt What do we call "one who makes idioms"? Idiomator?

RegDwigнt

That's what ELU does to you. All day long you will be asking why, and never once saying because.

@NVZ I am a benevolent idiocrator. Dunno about others.

NVZ

@RegDwigнt Because?

Kit Z. Fox

Wonderment.

RegDwigнt

See. Even when you're saying it, you're not saying it. You're asking it. Such much is your despair. Very lot.

NVZ

14:22

@RegDwigнt you don't say.

RegDwigнt

I say I say I say: Turtle Powah!

NVZ

@KitZ.Fox What did the fox say?

Tonepoet

@NVZ Kon-kon.

NVZ

@Tonepoet that was torture.

@Tonepoet shall we write poetry? 2 lines about a random thing? You start, I'll follow.

Tonepoet

I'm not a poet and I know it.

terdon

14:32

I will draw a line and toe it.

NVZ

@Tonepoet well, that is true. Everything you write is about you.

Kit Z. Fox

My son is having dental work done right now.

NVZ

@KitZ.Fox And I'm getting no work done right now.

Kit Z. Fox

Are you not doing it while inhaling nitrous oxide gas?

tchrist

14:57

Yes, he is.

NVZ

15:09

I breathe. Therefore I am.

I just got a notification on phone, "@NVZ I disagree... (and more words)". Suddenly it disappeared. And now there's no trace of such a notification on the site. This is killing me... the curiosity.

Who could have disagreed with me and not let me read the comment?.. :(

tchrist

Only the Shadow knows.

Tonepoet

@NVZ Maybe the reason the deleted it is because they don't disagree anymore!

terdon

Would you consider tits vulgar?

Informal, sure, but vulgar?

Tonepoet

Did your rep. go up after the deletion?

NVZ

@Tonepoet You talkin to me?

No rep changes visible.

Tonepoet

15:17

@NVZ Yeah.

@terdon It's rude enough.

3

Q: A snappy and inoffensive alternative for "calm your tits"

I need a non-sexist, non-sexualized aternative instead of "Calm your tits." Clarification: The question comes from the parent of a pre-teen with Tourette Syndrome. The parent (me) needs some alternatives that will appeal to said pre-teen, but which will be less offensive to the parent, in the ...

expressions phrase-requests

terdon

@Tonepoet Rude is one thing, vulgar another.

Tonepoet

@terdon Dictionaries usually don't graduate between degrees of rudeness with their usage labels.

NVZ

@Tonepoet this made me laugh uncontrollably.. ;) Shall I calm my tits? Nope. Don't answer that.

Tonepoet

@NVZ Nah, you should just take it easy. Cough... cough...

terdon

@Tonepoet So I saw, the ones I checked consider it "vulgar slang" which is the same designation they give to truly vulgar words like cock or cunt and the like. To me, tits is several levels down from that.

NVZ

15:20

@terdon I should close your question here as "POB" ;)

terdon

That's why it's in chat.

Mitch

@NVZ haha. I was going to bring that up, because it is an interesting topic for discussion.

But nobody cares.

Tonepoet

@terdon Cock and cunt aren't even on the same level, in part because cock is technically a euphemism referring to a bird.

Mitch

@Tonepoet That's incuntrovertible

tchrist

@Tonepoet No no, birds are chicks not blokes.

terdon

15:21

@Tonepoet Tsk. I am referring to the other sense. Obviously.

And how is cock a euphemism?

Mitch

@tchrist Bricks and blokes and chicks and birds

tchrist

@Mitch These are a few of my favorite things!

terdon

>male chicken," Old English cocc "male bird," Old French coc (12c., Modern French coq), Old Norse kokkr, all of echoic origin. Old English cocc was a nickname for "one who strutted like a cock," thus a common term in the Middle Ages for a pert boy, used of scullions, apprentices, servants, etc.

A common personal name till c. 1500, it was affixed to Christian names as a pet diminutive, as in Wilcox, Hitchcock, etc. Slang sense of "penis" is attested since 1610s (but compare pillicock "penis," from c. 1300); cock-teaser is from 1891. A cocker spaniel (1823) was trained to start woodcocks. Co…

NVZ

So shouldn't we consider bird vulgar? Uhm.. Don't give me the bird.

Everything is vulgar to somebody: bird, chick, tits, and all of English

Tonepoet

@terdon What does the O.E.D. have to say about use of the word penis in the past?

terdon

15:25

Don't have it here

Tonepoet

I was assuming that was the dictionary you referenced. Hmm...

tchrist

@Tonepoet See capon.

terdon

I'd like to get back to tits though. Would you all consider it vulgar (as opposed to "casual" or "rude" or whatever)

@Tonepoet That was etymonline.com

Tonepoet

Ah, the good ol' Online Etymology Dictionary.

NVZ

@terdon I'd consider it vulgar in an office environment, though.

terdon

15:27

Sure, but not in casual conversation.

I'd say it's less offensive even than shit.

Especially when used in idiomatic expressions like arse over tit

NVZ

@terdon Disagree. Shit is sooo everywhere. It's lost its vulgarness(?)

tchrist

@NVZ Thrice wrong. FLAGS

terdon

Yeah. So's tit.

But I might say tit in a conversation where I'd not use shit.

Tonepoet

@NVZ No, that's not quite right. It's used so much because it's vulgar.

If it was suddenly deigned inoffensive nobody would be using the word shit for much other than dung.

NVZ

There's this thing about vulgar words -- they lose their impact when overused.

Tonepoet

15:32

@NVZ I don't disagree that it has grown trite, but the intention is still there.

Matt E. Эллен

@NVZ vulgarity

Mitch

@NVZ vulgar vulgar vulgar

nope. still vulgar

terdon

@MattE.Эллен would you call tits vulgar? Among my friends, of both sexes, it is very commonly used as a synonym of breasts.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon it is more vulgar than breasts but less vulgar than cock

Mitch

and you all use this in common everyday speech all the time?

terdon

15:35

@MattE.Эллен But it would still register on the vulgarity scale for you? I'd put it down as somewhere around as vulgar as damn.

Mitch

define 'degree of vulgarity'. cubic centimeters of blood rushing to a nun's face?

Matt E. Эллен

I mean, it's all subjective, so...

terdon

@Mitch That'll do

Mitch

When she vampirically rips out the guts of her victims?

oops...mixed conversations

Tonepoet

Here are some interesting historic notes. I have a dictionary of American Slang that attests use in reference to teats began in 1947. The Merriam-Webster's New International Dictionary, 2nd Edition, actually has a sense of the word as a term of disrespect towards a woman or girl. Since this is not in the addenda section, I'm presuming that usage dates back to at least 1934, before it was used in reference to breasts.

Matt E. Эллен

15:37

ODO changed!

how odd

tchrist

Teton Range

The Teton Range is a mountain range of the Rocky Mountains in North America. A north-south range, it is mostly on Wyoming's eastern side of the Idaho state line. It is south of Yellowstone National Park. Most of the east slope of the range is in Grand Teton National Park. Early French Voyageurs used the name les trois tétons (the three nipples). It is likely that the Shoshone people once called the whole range Teewinot, meaning "many pinnacles". The principal summits of the central massif, sometimes referred to as the Cathedral Group, are Grand Teton 13,775 feet (4,199 m), Mount Owen 12,928 feet...

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен That's why I always reference printed works, and never vote for the online reliant ones...

Mitch

@Tonepoet you're just reading someone else's words. you have to have feeling. Literally, in your face or on your chest.

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet why reference something that can be corrected, when you can reference something that's wrong forever!

terdon

@tchrist See? Not vulgar!

Tetilla cheese

Tetilla is a regional cheese made in Galicia, in north-western Spain. It is a common element in Galician cuisine, often used as a dessert. It has had Denominación de Origen certification since 1993 and European DOP certification since 1996. Originally produced in small towns along the border between the provinces of A Coruña and Pontevedra such as Arzúa, Melide, Curtis or Sobrado dos Monxes, it is now produced throughout Galicia. It is made with milk from three breeds of cattle: imported Friesian and Parda Alpina (Braunvieh), and the local Rubia Gallega of Galicia. The name tetilla (Galician for...

NVZ

15:40

@terdon Quick question. Are we talking about the mentioning of tits (breasts or nipples or something) or calling someone by that word?

tchrist

@terdon Nipples.

terdon

Breasts. Calling someone a tit isn't even remotely vulgar.

tchrist

#100) My Little Chickadee (1940)

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Tonepoet

@Mitch I'm the wrong person to ask about that, as sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

terdon

@Tonepoet Oh yeah? Try dropping that dictionary of yours on your foot and then tell me that.

Mitch

15:43

It is somewhat embarrassing to call a tit a booby. Every one gets uncomfortable then.

Tonepoet

@terdon That's the stick content of the dictionary hurting me, rather than the inky word content. =P

NVZ

Quick question. Are we all men? Is there a woman here? What do women feel about this word's vulgarity?

Mitch

@terdon That's how that dude died in the Crucible, they crushed him slowly by placing volume after volume of the full OED on his chest.

tchrist

@Mitch But not vice versa?

Mitch

Live by the word, die by the word.

terdon

15:45

@Mitch Your words do lie heavy on my chest.

Mitch

Appendix C is what did him in in the end.

tchrist

Mortal appendicitis.

Mitch

By coincidence it was the appendix of vulgarities uttered on publication of the first edition.

NVZ

@terdon words don't lie, people do.

Mitch

words lie when they go to sleep

terdon

15:46

NRA! NRA! NRA!

NVZ

"It's only words, and words are all I haaaave..."

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен An update isn't necessarily right, even if the updater believes it to be a correction. Besides that possibility, part of the reason for citation is that people might not trust your personal opinion: If an answer isn't corroborated by the source material, then readers have a right to distrust if you accurately portrayed it.

tchrist

@NVZ Stat verba pristina nomine, verbina nuda tenemus

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet if the source material is updated and that makes the answer wrong, then the answer is wrong, no? So that's a good thing.

terdon

♪ Stat verba domine, verbina teneeeemus ♪

Tonepoet

15:52

@MattE.Эллен How does it make an answer wrong if the reference material gets updated?

terdon

Rigoletto La Dona e mobile

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Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet well, that's what you suggested. "If an answer isn't corroborated by the source material, then readers have a right to distrust if you accurately portrayed it."

if the answer just made stuff up and referenced something unrelated, then it was always wrong

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Polls are idiotic too. THere's not even a reference to check with a person if they were choose sanely, even if they knew the right answer.

You can make stuff up with words or with a vote.

Matt E. Эллен

other people, man

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен Trust and correctness are two entirely different things. Haven't you ever heard the story of The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf?

NVZ

15:56

Says who?

Cohen to CNN's Keilar: What polls show Donald Trump is losing?

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Mitch

@Tonepoet Not that it's relevant or anything, but that was a made-up story.

tchrist

0

Q: TO BE or THERE IS?

I have come across this sentence on a BBC webpage: Deep in the southern United States, in the thickly forested border of Tennessee and North Carolina, is a road that seems drawn by a doodler. and I would like to know why the author didn't say "there is a road" instead of "is a road". Would it ...

verbs

Screamers.

Mitch

You must be some kind of Aesopian.

Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the ... tries to clear throat...

Tonepoet

@Mitch What's an Aesop? Is that what you do with pancakes and syrup?

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet oh yeah. It's a crazy story. Society should really learn to accept that men can have emotions, too

terdon

16:01

@tchrist That seems like a perfectly good question for ELL

SmokeDetector

16:16

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened URL in body: Indefinite article with uncountable nouns by S Jay on english.stackexchange.com

Matt E. Эллен

I do hate link shortners

tchrist

Yeah

tchrist

16:51

-2

Q: What is the name of the fallacy of thinking that cynicism is a sign of being smart?

Some people think cynicism and belief in conspiracy theories shows one's high intelligence, while not being so proves one is ingenuous and naive. What is the fallacy in this kind of reasoning called?

single-word-requests

What is the name of the fallacy of thinking either that things have names or else that fallacies matter but not both?

That's the Fancy Fantasy Fallacy for $100.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…