English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

18:00

Shitty makes more sense there though.

Kit Z. Fox

It means to get the worse part of the situation.

Færd

Yes.

Kit Z. Fox

@Færd Eh. It's easier to say "shit end" then "shitty end".

Færd

@KitZ.Fox Or to mistake an honest joke for an insult?

I heard it used in a situation like that, by a Brit.

Kit Z. Fox

@Færd Oh, no. That would be, um.

There's a different expression. The wrong side of...To get the...let me think a minute. It will come to me.

Færd

18:04

Usually it comes without thinking. Don't exert yourself. :)

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox I've never heard the vulgar one before

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe I am thinking of "wrong end of the stick" and confusing it with "short end of the stick"?

Which would be ironic.

Mitch

now I'm confused

Kit Z. Fox

11

Q: Origin of "the wrong end of the stick"

If someone has the wrong end of the stick it means they've misunderstood something. If they've got the shitty end of the stick it means they've got a bad deal in some bargain or share-out. This doesn't seem particularly close to the wrong end meaning - so unless someone convinces me different, I...

Ha!

Færd

Yay.

Mitch

18:06

if you get the short end of the stick, well, the other person is just choking up too far on it.

Kit Z. Fox

So "shitty end" must be a BrE variant.

@Mitch You haven't heard "shit end" before?

Færd

> If someone has the wrong end of the stick it means they've misunderstood something.

Kit Z. Fox

Well, that question really needs to be cleaned up.

Færd

Maybe you Americans mean something else by it.

Andrew Leach

There is a big difference between "wrong end" (misunderstanding) and "shitty end" (bad deal).

Mitch

18:09

@KitZ.Fox No. Makes total folketymology sense after reading.

I see it more often as "the short end of the stick," which wouldn't fit with the outhouse explanations. In fact, I can't figure out how a stick can have a long end or short end. — gmcgath Apr 6 '13 at 12:35

'wrong end' means bad deal to me. I don't know where 'misunderstanding' comes from.... in AmE (or in my personal idiolect)

Færd

@Mitch Apparently it's British usage. With Andrew, I have three Brits saying it denotes misunderstanding.

(I hope 'Brit' is not in the least insulting or offensive.)

Mitch

@tchrist wait...how do you do that so easily? I have to go to an online IPA typing website.

While you're at it, can you tell me how to do emoji? My MiL can do them and I can't.

Place of articulation

In articulatory phonetics, the place of articulation (also point of articulation) of a consonant is the point of contact where an obstruction occurs in the vocal tract between an articulatory gesture, an active articulator (typically some part of the tongue), and a passive location (typically some part of the roof of the mouth). Along with the manner of articulation and the phonation, it gives the consonant its distinctive sound. The terminology in this article has been developed for precisely describing all the consonants in all the world's spoken languages. No known language distinguishes all...

9 is the uvula, 11 the glottis (food goes past the uvula but not the glottis)

@Færd @AndrewLeach does 'wrong end of the stick' mean 'misunderstanding' to you?

Færd

11 mins ago, by Andrew Leach

There is a big difference between "wrong end" (misunderstanding) and "shitty end" (bad deal).

Andrew Leach

@Mitch With luck. And yes.

Mitch

@Færd That doesn't imply that he agrees with with it.

But that does: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32167828#32167828

Færd

18:23

It's too late at night for me to discuss subtle implications.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach It took me forever to explore the maze of wiki to find that.

@Færd but that's what we've been doing!

We should have cake instead.

Færd

goes to have cake

tchrist

Qu’ils mangent de la brioche

Kit Z. Fox

Qui rigole les rigoleurs?

tchrist

Start with the custodians themselves.

Kit Z. Fox

18:37

tickles nearest mod

Mitch

Who will eat the watchers?

user227867

I am back after eating a snickers.

Mitch

Nougat and peanuts

user227867

I did not eat my sneakers.

Abcd

can someone please tell me how to write a request letter

Færd

18:47

@tchrist Would you kindly tell me whether that was a correction of a mistake on my part?

Mitch

If you find nougat in your sneakers, you should get new sneakers

tchrist

@Færd Yes, I would.

Færd

Good. Was it?

tchrist

No, it was not.

Hence the smilogram.

Abcd

How to write a letter of request

to the manager of an icecrream factory

requesting him to visit his factory

tchrist

18:49

> Dear Santa, Please send ice cream. Love, Abcd.

Færd

@tchrist Thanks.

Kit Z. Fox

Qui mange la glace?

That doesn't fit right.

Færd

@Abcd I didn't read it, but it may help: wikihow.com/Write-a-Letter-Requesting-a-Favor

You may be able to find lotsa free samples online.

user227867

@Abcd You have to write it yourself. Just say what you want, and then get someone to edit it after writing.

user227867

@Færd I don't think it's a good idea to even see free samples.

Færd

18:52

Just to get a hang of the general format of such letters.

Mitch

Close your eyes?

user227867

I think writing letters should be descriptive and not prescriptive, lol.

user227867

I am going to change the format of all letters I will write in future, lol.

Abcd

thanks @Færd and @JasperLoy

Mitch

@JasperLoy You should do that.

Or rather... you will do that?

or, If you don't do that things won't be as good?

user227867

18:58

@Mitch It's kind of silly for people to follow all these 'rules'.

Mitch

I can't seem to make that descriptive.

You shouldn't follow prescriptive rules

user227867

There are some nice rules we can stick to, but if one has a sufficient mastery of the language, one should write with his own, unique style.

Mitch

Descriptive rules aren't as effective as prescriptive rules.

user227867

Good writing is informed by the rules but not contrained by them.

Mitch

haha, that one makes sense.

That's why they're more like guidelines rather than strict rules.

But there are some things that people just don't say.

Færd

19:00

Styles are not separate from the language. People communicate with styles too. If you haven't mastered the styles, you haven't mastered the language.

user227867

Clarity, Concision, and Consistency.

Mitch

grammar solecisms are much more grating than style.

style is vague, grammar rules not as much.

user227867

3 AM here.

Mitch

3 AM there

user227867

That means it is 3 PM in NYC.

Mitch

19:02

In antarctica you only have to drive a few miles to get a new time zone

Færd

@JasperLoy You just gave away your longitude.

user227867

@Færd Yes. But Antarctica has all of them, lol.

Mitch

You know the riddle about the man hunting the bear?

a man is hunting a bear

(that's how it starts)

he follows the bear south for a mile.

user227867

I am quite near the south pole now. It's cold and wet here.

Mitch

then he follows it east for a mile

(notice that this is in imperial units)

then he follows it north for a mile

and he finds he's back at the place he started.

What color is the bear?

user227867

19:05

The bear is white.

Mitch

That's the traditional answer. Because there's a solution for starting at the north pole

user227867

@Mitch So, what is your favourite American dictionary?

Mitch

But people don't realize that there are an infinite number of solutions around the south pole.

it's a math thing

and there the bear can be any color you want because you're obviously dying of hunger and are getting hallucinations that you're hunting an actual bear. There are no bears on the south pole.

user227867

@Mitch I actually have no idea about bears. I think I have not seen one in my life.

Mitch

@JasperLoy They're like teddy bears. But bigger. and alive.

@JasperLoy You're not gonna like my answer.

maybe you will.

I don't know.

that is I don't know if you'll like my answer.

user227867

19:08

Just say it.

Mitch

Not that 'I don't know' is my answer

OED

user227867

Hmm, OK, LOL.

Mitch

It kicks ass all other dictionaries. and tells you when it's american or not.

user227867

Did you get the 20 volumes?

Mitch

many years ago I got the shrunk version, I cant remember the name, the one with the magnifying glass.

MetaEd

19:10

Compact Edition.

Mitch

got it for a dollar as one of the perks for joining a book club.

user227867

I can't believe some people actually get the 20 volumes.

Mitch

@JasperLoy only libraries get that

and then no one uses them.

user227867

@Mitch There are individuals who buy them too.

Mitch

I also like the online OED. same content. somewhat searchable. easier to find mistakes (just a few, just enough to remind you that they're only humans)

@JasperLoy those individuals... must...

...must have very strong backs.

user227867

19:12

I think if they make the 20 volumes into say 4 volumes instead of one, then it can be read without magnifying.

Mitch

I on the other hand have ruined my vision looking through the magnifying glass just to find out I'm still not sure if 'hello' and 'hail' are cognate.

Færd

Either you hit the South Pole while stalking the bear southward or not.
If you do, you cannot continue south anymore, so it cannot be the case that you do.
If you don't, after you traveled east for a mile, either you're at your previous place (before travelling east) or not.
If you're not, you won't get back to your starting point by travelling north.
If you are, you're at the latitude that's exactly 1 mile in circumference.
And that's it. Any starting point exactly one mile above that latitude works.

Mitch

It should totally be online

user227867

Can't they make a huge PDF file and sell it? Afraid of piracy I guess...

Mitch

then it's obvious it is a database, with all sotrts of tags on each word, and commentary and etc etc etc.

written by experts.

(because wiktionary is the worst)

user227867

19:14

Experts, like those on SE, lol.

Mitch

@Færd Oh, that's not the infinity I was thinking of, but yes, that's one of the infinities.

Færd

That's an either-or way of tracking all the solutions. How can there be more solutions round the South Pole?

Mitch

also a mile north of where it wraps around exactly twice

user227867

@Mitch I think Merriam Webster is overrated. Just looking at the circle logo makes me sad, because I prefer rectangles.

Mitch

or three times

Færd

19:16

@Mitch True.

Nice riddle.

Mitch

@JasperLoy But those criteria are easy to evaluate. Also easy to correct.

not easy to ensure that every one has the same criteria

@Færd or etc times

whichever one, the hunter is still in a starvation hallucination. Penguins don't go that far inland.

user227867

OK, I think I will stick to my guns and get the Oxford Dictionary of English. End of my deliberation.

Mitch

You should write down all the things that are important about each one.

also the bad things.

then rank them by importance.

user227867

Also, I think I will delete my SE account again at the end of this month.

Mitch

color of binding

stance on desert vs dessert

user227867

19:20

I often misspell millennium and Portuguese.

user227867

I used to spell millenium and Portugese.

Mitch

like aluminum and Betelgeuse?

user227867

Well, here in Antarctica, I spell it as aluminium.

user227867

I am going to sleep, good night.

Mitch

later

NVZ

19:28

@Mitch 3 AM everywhere... ee ya ee ya yo

@JohanLarsson hello :)

Johan Larsson

hej

Shafizadeh

20:19

What's the meaning of "I'm not crazy about something"?

It means "I don't like something so much" ..

Correct?

Andrew Leach

Litotes, I think.

Emphasis by understatement.

Litotes

In rhetoric, litotes (/ˈlaɪtətiːz/, US /ˈlɪtətiːz/ or /laɪˈtoʊtiːz/) is a figure of speech wherein understatement is used to emphasize a point by stating a negative to further affirm a positive, often incorporating double negatives for effect. For example, "She's not bad looking" could be used to express that someone is gorgeous. Or it could convey that she's not particularly ugly, but also isn't particularly attractive. The degree of emphasis depends on the context in which it is used. For instance, the commonly used phrase "not bad" could indicate that something was either average or excellent...

So, yes.

Johan Larsson

do you think you will ever get 100k @AndrewLeach?

Andrew Leach

Currently at 99915, it appears (tooltip on that score).

+215 today.

So, probably.

Johan Larsson

so there is a chance

Andrew Leach

:-)

I've just had a text from Parcelforce saying a parcel has been despatched and will be delivered tomorrow.

Which would be fine except my parcel should be delivered by Yodel.

Presumably they couldn't, so they've paid Parcelforce to do it instead.

Happy days. Yodel are one of the worst, in my experience.

Johan Larsson

20:46

never heard of either of them

Andrew Leach

If you haven't heard of Yodel, be thankful. One good reason for not living in the UK.

Parcelforce used to be part of Royal Mail.

tchrist

21:56

Morris dancers, again?

Andrew Leach

Might just as well be for all the good they do with parcels.

Mine have all been late, or just left outside, or both.

Mitch

22:46

@AndrewLeach they communicate via Parceltongue

Tonepoet

23:28

Today I learned that nobody else on English Language and Usage has a thumb.

Or maybe I'm just mishearing things.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…