English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

03:11

> Falo asturianu, castellanu, portugués ya inglés. Teclio con munchos errores, sobre too cuando voi reescribiendo partes de los mio retruques. Nun duldes en correxímelos, agradézotelo.

It's odder to look at than to listen to.

Færd

05:00

@mrok Those are not sentences and I (and probably others too) don't know what you want to convey without the help of a context.

________________

Orange segments or orange slices?

All I could find in dictionaries was orange segments, but slice is another valid choice, and perhaps even more common: books.google.com/ngrams/…

Ugh, these dictionaries.

tchrist

Those are different things.

Slices you make with a knife. Segments are the natural, membrane-separated pieces.

Færd

Yep. I shouldn't be so quick to judge.

tchrist

05:19

So which one was what you were thinking of?

Færd

The natural segments.

I saw them referred to as slices once, and generalized, apparently falsely.

tchrist

When one cuts orange slices, like for putting in drinks, one cuts perpendicularly to the prevailing direction of the segments.

Færd

I saw this woman holding a bag of peeled orange segments saying "I brought orange slices".

But now that you say, slice does make me think of cutting with a knife.

tchrist

If the orange is the globe, you slice it at the lines of latitude not of longitude.

Parallels not meridians.

Færd

Figures. The other way doesn't need slicing.

Unless for non-alimentary purposes:

farm4.static.flickr.com/3061/2384470865_1f48f1abcb.jpg?v=0

Tonepoet

05:38

Merriam-Webster has got to be kidding me. The 2002 printing of Webster's Third New International Dictionary has Ginko Baloba, but not Gingerbread Man.

@Færd I saw that and it's doubtful. Oh well, the online dictionary has it.

Færd

Gingerbread man?

Tonepoet

Yeah.

user227867

@Tonepoet LOL. I see we both like discussing dictionaries.

user227867

QED stands for this: Quiet Elegant Dude, Quit Explaining Dictionaries.

Færd

@Tonepoet I wouldn't mind. I bet it doesn't have gingerbread woman either.

DEAD

05:49

@JasperLoy Quartered Entertaining Devil

Færd

06:01

@tchrist Cutting on meridian lines doesn't count?

google.com/…

Oh, check these out! :

google.com/…

user227867

08:21

It is a beautiful Sunday afternoon in Antarctica.

Tarun

10:32

Someone, they don't know(a)/who, knocked at(b)/their door in midnight.(c)no error. Could somebody tell which part is grammatically wrong in the sentence

Helmar

10:52

0

Q: Proposed ELU tagging guideline

I am suggesting to create a guideline post describing how to tag specifically for the ELU taxonomy. The discussions in chat and all the posts and comments regarding tags on meta lead me to believe that such a guideline could massively improve the state of our taxonomy going forward. If it's well ...

Tarun

@Helmar Could you please answer my question

Helmar

Not really familiar with that question format, what are (a) and (b) supposed to say? That know or at are wrong?

Someone, they don't know who, knocked at their door in midnight. I'd just change it to 'at midnight'

Mind starring my question, so that it goes up on the star board, since nobody is here?

Tarun

11:11

@Helmar I wonder if we can use " who" as object. I think the correct phrase would be " Who they dont know "

Helmar

Everyone does, originally the objective form was whom however.

I don't think changing the order changes anything besides making it less idiomatic.

caub

12:48

"bye mom", guess a city name from this

caub

13:14

hint: switch the terms

NVZ

14:45

Guys, what are your thoughts on these edits made by others on my answer? Did they improve my answer?

39

A: Polite alternative for "none of your business"

If you're asked a question you do not want to answer, and you feel like saying "none of your business", maybe these might be a better way to be polite and convey the same idea. "I'd rather not say..." "I'd rather not..." means "I don't want to..." People say "I'd rather not..." to talk ...

Helmar

15:03

@NVZ The first was ok, I even approved that one. Providing some citations from links is SE policy. The other one should be a comment

NVZ

In particular, the edit by Mark Hubbard.. Is that a good one? I know he's a qualified professional, but is this the way to go?

Helmar

In my opinion it's not. Should be a comment in my view.

NVZ

this is Hubbard's bio:

Mark Hubbard, Coastal Northern California

4.9k 1 4 22

grammar single-word-requests meaning word-choice grammaticality prepositions phrases

Helmar

Well I'm not doubting the context he put in there. Just the way he did it. Badge composition doesn't exactly say 'familiar with SE or ELU editing practices'.

NVZ

Well, I kind of like the added suggestion: "Why do you ask?". So I guess I'll let it be. :)

Helmar

15:11

Unsung hero in three months, that's gotta be a record though. ;)

Mitch

16:13

@NVZ That Edit by Mark Hubbard is entirely inappropriate. He's giving his own answer. It should be made a separate answer. How did this edit get approved?

Helmar

@Mitch It wasn't he has a lot of rep ;)

tchrist

english.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/198530

Mitch

@caub Vladivostok? Alamogordo? Manama?

@caub Ohh...

@tchrist That part was OK (did all the research for NVZ). It's the entirely distinct answer given by MH in NVZ's answer

Keep these mind

'“Donald Trump and I are both going to release our tax returns. I’ll release mine in the next week,” Mr. Pence said in an NBC interview broadcast on Sunday.' Any strong opinions on which week that is?

Tarun

Which one is correct or say

I and my wife were announced the best couple in the party

Me and my wife were announced the best couple in the party

tchrist

16:25

My wife and I were announced the best couple in the party is unassailably proper.

Keep these mind

at the party

tchrist

Me and my wife is often said in casual speech by less educated speakers, or those who are being deliberately rustic.

Keep these mind

or of the party

tchrist

I like at.

Tarun

@tchrist I have a doubt. "I" is object of "announce" verb so i think it should be use in objective case i.e " me". Please correct me

tchrist

16:29

In English we do not say "I have a doubt" to mean "I have a question".

And it's in passive voice.

So it is the subject not the object of were announced.

NVZ

@Mitch did all the research for NVZ.. wait.. what? I actually avoided quoting the site initially, because I didn't have the time. But it was my own research, nonetheless. :)

Tarun

@tchrist Thank you.

Keep these mind

@tchrist Only from SE experience, I now believe that 'doubt' is somewhat standard Indian English for 'question'.

NVZ

@Keepthesemind true that. Indian here.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind It can also be Spanish or Portuguese. But it is not English. :)

Keep these mind

16:33

@tchrist I wanted to mention those too. :) But not English...

NVZ

In Indian schools, kids usually raise their hands to ask "doubts", not "questions". Teachers usually say something like "If you have any doubts, raise your hands"

tchrist

That will just confuse us. Don't do that. :)

Children are supposed to ask questions, not have doubts! That's too self-negationalizing!

Keep these mind

Would be nice to change the 'Ask Question' button on the homepage to 'Ask Doubt'. Perhaps based on IP.

tchrist

> Teacher, I have a wonder. Why does this sound funny?

DEAD

Some people think of Indianisms as monstrosities though.

@tchrist Oh, student. You're so wonderful!

NVZ

16:35

@Mitch Yea, he didn't need approval. He's got the rep.

DEAD

@Keepthesemind Until a while ago, one of my biggest pet peeves was this.

NVZ

@tchrist Doesn't matter. Indian English wasn't made in a day, you can't change it now. :)

tchrist

@NVZ Complaints about that should be directed here.

DEAD

Nice, I was pinged but not pinged.

NVZ

13

Q: Indian English: What usage is allowed for "doubt" (meaning "question")?

I have a doubt about having a doubt. I learned from this question that in Indian English the word doubt is used to mean question, that is, as a countable noun. If my understanding is correct, the following is grammatical in InE: I have two doubts about SQL. 1. Can I type in lower-case? 2. Doe...

usage indian-english

tchrist

16:38

Also understand that here in the American West, Indian by default means our tribes.

I know it's hard for you guys to imagine that, but it is so.

NVZ

@tchrist So your American?.. I thought Portuguese.

tchrist

These are places where the US Bureau of Indian Affairs remains important.

DEAD

What about Persians?

Keep these mind

@tchrist Do they also say 'doubt'?

tchrist

Tom Christiansen

Thomas S. "Tom" Christiansen (born February 13, 1963), nicknamed tchrist or occasionally thoth, is a Unix developer and user known for his work with the Perl programming language. Christiansen worked for several years at TSR Hobbies before attending the University of Wisconsin - Madison where he earned B.A.'s in Spanish and Computer Science, and an M.S. in Computer Science. He worked for five years at Convex Computer. In 1993, he established the Tom Christiansen Perl Consultancy, located in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. In 2010, he joined the Biomedical Text Mining Group at the University of Colorado...

NVZ

16:40

@DEAD I donno, do you?

@tchrist Woah! You've got your own Wiki! Nice!

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Tengo una duda is Spanish. Tenho uma duda is Portuguese.

DEAD

@tchrist Oh, I searched for Christansen and I thought you were a retired footballer.

NVZ

And that's your real name, huh!

TIL many things!

Keep these mind

@tchrist I meant your Indians.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind They do not.

Keep these mind

16:41

@DEAD Soccer?

NVZ

@Keepthesemind football, not soccer.

DEAD

I didn't check, but it didn't seem like soccing.

NVZ

I hate when Americans say soccer. Eww.

DEAD

Soccer.

Keep these mind

@NVZ Imagine Indians saying soccer.

DEAD

16:42

Soccer

tchrist

Soccer
Soccer
Soccer

NVZ

LOL

DEAD

I knew he'd explode.

I found the secret combination.

Keep these mind

Foosball

DEAD

Bootfall

NVZ

16:43

I like the German name, too.

DEAD

Footschball

Schoccer

NVZ

I wonder what came first, soccer or football?

DEAD

I came first.

I'm faster.

Keep these mind

@NVZ Where?

NVZ

Football it is!

Keep these mind

16:45

But why do Americans call handball football?

NVZ

etymonline.com/index.php?term=soccer

@Keepthesemind Because, crazy?

Keep these mind

@NVZ Wouldn't have thought that.

NVZ

Even maths users asked doubts:

36

Q: What exactly might non-native speakers mean by "doubt"?

Every once in a while, we get questions on math.SE that seem to be trying to use the word "doubt" in a non-standard way. If you search for "doubt" (on math.SE, not here on meta), you'll find dozens of these questions. I'm wondering what exactly is meant. Often the intended meaning seems to be som...

discussion languages

tchrist

I wonder how they learned the wrong word.

NVZ

That is a good question.

Keep these mind

16:50

@tchrist Maybe they are right.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Now you're just making things down.

NVZ

I hope Fiksdal asks it. He's really into Indian English. He's a Norwegian, staying in south of India. :)

tchrist

Ten Little Indians Nursery Rhyme | Popular Number Nursery Rhymes For Children by ChuChu TV

►

Keep these mind

@NVZ Do Indians even use the word question?

NVZ

@tchrist see my comment here, tell me if I sounded harsh. Was it wrong for me to say it?

2

A: Word for a person who cries easily over anything

Feelings of sadness and tearfulness can be a result of bereavement or a clinical condition such as major depressive illness. If we exclude clinical conditions and consider a personality trait where minor criticism, insults, hints or the like, may be enough to make a person burst out crying, we c...

DEAD

16:53

@Keepthesemind I don't think ESL's get to decide what a language wants.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Perhaps one is not permitted to question things there.

Keep these mind

@NVZ Did they start crying?

DEAD

Myself being an ESL, mind you.

Actually, wait. English is my third language.

NVZ

@Keepthesemind Is that a question or a doubt?

@DEAD Well, how many do you know?

DEAD

Three and half.

tchrist

16:55

"I have a doubt" is like "This most unworthy person doubts his own distressing incompetence in this matter".

"I have a question" is like "Yo Willard, whatcha talkin bout?"

Mitch

@NVZ Sorry, not research just from tchrists link, they added quite a lot of text and I just called it research.

Keep these mind

@tchrist Who's Willard?

tchrist

Willis?

Something like that.

NVZ

@Keepthesemind who's not Willard?

tchrist

Whatcha talkin bout Willis

►

Willard (1971 film)

Willard is a 1971 American horror film starring Bruce Davison and Ernest Borgnine, directed by Daniel Mann. The movie is based on the novel Ratman's Notebooks by Stephen Gilbert, and was nominated for an Edgar Award for best picture. The supporting cast included Elsa Lanchester in one of her last performances, and Sondra Locke in one of her first. The film was a summer hit in 1971; opening to good reviews and high box office returns. It inspired other horror films with wild animals as predators, as well as psychological thrillers with social outcasts as the protagonists, such as the hit films Jaws...

I had my Will{is,ard}s confused.

Keep these mind

16:58

@tchrist Good that I doubted that.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind No kowtowing in this chat.

Keep these mind

My doubtions are the best.

Cow-towing. Must be a pic for that.

tchrist

That's sospechoso at best.

NVZ

@Keepthesemind Yea, I don't doubt that.

Mitch

@NVZ Why does everyone call it an English name?

tchrist

17:00

NVZ

@Mitch Soccer isn't an English name, is it? I think it's American.

tchrist

@NVZ No, British originally.

Using English as a demonym is confusing.

Mitch

@NVZ English as in English language.

Soccer is an acronym, like scuba, right?

NVZ

@Mitch etymonline.com/index.php?term=soccer

Keep these mind

"Some places may not have a word for the people that live there." Aw.

tchrist

17:02

chupa-chups

NVZ

@tchrist the lollipop? Nostalgic.

Mitch

@NVZ close!

tchrist

One man's sucker is the next man's lollipoop.

Mitch

fußball hardly counts as translated.

tchrist

NVZ

17:04

Is "running with the wolves" a common phrase? From a song, I get that it means to become part of nature. Google doesn't show me dictionary entries.

DEAD

@NVZ I guess it's a pulp fiction thing.

tchrist

Duran Duran hungry like the wolf with lyrics

►

DEAD

People not from the other side of the mountain are likely to get what you're saying.

Mitch

why isn't it pelota de pie

Keep these mind

@NVZ Dancing with wolves

Mitch

17:06

dancing with the stars

tchrist

The Bear Went Over The Mountain | Nursery Rhymes | 60 Minutes Compilation from Kidscamp

►

Mitch

shooting for the stars

shooting for the moon

Keep these mind

Shooting the wolves

Mitch

mooning the wolves

tchrist

@Keepthesemind flags for political incorrectness and general evil

Keep these mind

17:07

Wolfing the moon

DEAD

Is this the all-possible-combinations-of-a-phrase night?

tchrist

No, ’tis morning yet.

Mitch

What? I thought it was anything-goes afternoon?

tchrist

Keep your postprandial affairs to yourself, you.

NVZ

Oh, snap.

Mitch

17:08

Maybe it's 'Somewhere-it's-work-break' day?

puts dessert back into fridge

DEAD

I'M IN UR FRIDGE, EATING DESSERT

tchrist

@DEAD usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/09/04/…

Mitch

:D

all of a sudden things happen...

DEAD

Færd

@DEAD Today at the subway station I saw a kid standing on and riding a small two-wheel vehicle thingy behind his mother (who was walking alright).

DEAD

17:16

Two-wheel vehicle thingy? A bike?

Oh wait, kids ride tricycles.

Færd

No, think of automatic skates that are joined by a bar.

But you stand on the soles, you don't wear them.

DEAD

Færd

Nothing like that. That monocycle requires some physical exertion I think. This one didn't.

DEAD

Færd

Cool.

DEAD

17:20

@Færd I think I know what you're talking about, but I forgot their name.

Færd

Does what you know have a handle?

NVZ

@Færd skateboards?

Færd

Nope. Near though.

I don't know what it's called.

DEAD

@Færd No

IIRC it was electric something.

NVZ

Segway, Hoverboard?

Færd

17:23

So that may be it then.

@NVZ Hoverboard it is!

NVZ

Aha

Færd

Congrats!

DEAD

Oh. Weird.

Hoverboard occurred to my mind but I dismissed it for some reason.

Anyway, why does a very healthy person need a hoverboard unless they want not to be so healthy anymore?

There's a reason humans walk so efficiently, so effectively.

It's the best shortcut to momentary exercise.

Færd

It was a plump kid. I guess he was tired of carrying himself around.

DEAD

Oh wow. I already feel bad for him already.

Are you in Tehran?

Færd

17:27

The next product for those people is a literal hoverboard.

DEAD

Perhaps they were one of those rich snobs who need to taste everything in life.

@Færd I'm now thinking of Wall-E.

Keep these mind

gfycat.com/SameGraciousHatchetfish

Færd

Poor guy!

NVZ

@Færd rich enough to have a hoverboard, apparently ;)

DEAD

@Keepthesemind That hoverboard needs to be tamed

Færd

17:33

Good thing he was wearing a scarf on the head.

Or a bandanna, maybe.

DEAD

@NVZ Arabs have oil. They sell it, they get the Bugatti. Iranians have oil. They sell it, and for some reason we don't get the Bugatti.

Færd

We do. Come to Tehran and watch the imbalance parading on the streets.

More conspicuously than in the other cities.

DEAD

Yah, I heard rich jerks like Tehran better.

I like the city I'm in.

Tabriz is so quiet.

Færd

And being an Arab who rides a hoverboard doesn't mean you're necessarily well-off.

DEAD

@Færd Arabs are generally well-off.

There are very poor Arabs though.

Færd

17:44

What do you mean "generally"?

DEAD

There is a very small middle ground, so usually if an Arab can afford something they can afford bigger things too.

Færd

What about Iraqis, Africans, ...?

Iranians?

Yemenis?

DEAD

I'm actually only considering people in Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

Færd

Yes, in some countries like Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates people are generally more affluent.

DEAD

The ones more likely to use blings like a hoverboard.

Færd

17:53

@DEAD Don't mean to be fussy, but I wouldn't call them jerks; not just for driving expensive cars. (Don't mean to say that's what you meant.)

Still, I'm not a fan of driving super-expensive cars around a city like Tehran.

DEAD

@Færd By jerks, I meant whoever that's a jerk, obviously. :)

Not 'whoever that's rich'

Færd

I knew. :)

DEAD

The corrupt officials that always have a bunch of friends to be above the law.

Those were who I meant.

tchrist

18:49

Hi ho, anybody home?

DEAD

Yup

Færd

@DEAD What if it's a massless particle? ;P

Helmar

19:10

@tchrist hi ho

bump

2

Q: Proposed ELU tagging guideline

I am suggesting to create a guideline post describing how to tag specifically for the ELU taxonomy. The discussions in chat and all the posts and comments regarding tags on meta lead me to believe that such a guideline could massively improve the state of our taxonomy going forward. If it's well ...

discussion tags guideline

tchrist

20:46

user227867

21:22

@tchrist I forgot you had a Wikipedia page. Now I will read all about you.

user227867

@Tonepoet Do you know that since a few years ago, I check that every page in the book is present when I receive it? Some books do come with missing pages! Sometimes things go wrong at the publishing house.

user227867

I am changing my gmail theme from blue to dusk, because their blue is too light for me.

user227867

I just learnt that winners of the UK game show Countdown are presented with the 20 volume OED! Time for me to take part, LOL.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy How often do you find that the pages are missing?

tchrist

21:39

> aqua: A light greenish blue color.

aquamarine: Bluish-green (color); sea-color

azure: A bright blue pigment or dye; The clear blue color of the
unclouded sky, or of the sea reflecting it. (Originally, the deep
intense blue of more southern latitudes.)

bice: Brownish grey, dark grey. dark or dull blue.

blae: Of a dark color between black and blue; blackish blue; of the
color of the blae-berry; livid; also, of a lighter shade, bluish grey,
lead-colored.

bloness: Blackish blue quality; lividness; also, a wound of that color

@JasperLoy Cycle through those.

Andrew Leach

22:24

@JasperLoy I have a hymnbook where the cover is on upside-down. No missing pages, but it looks good on the organ music-stand when I'm playing.

I thought about sending it back, but that particular fault is quite rare.

Anonymous

@tchrist A familiar topic on Language Log :-) languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=27890

user227867

@Tonepoet Actually, only once in my entire life, when there was a blank page that should have ink on it. It was a calculus textbook.

user227867

Guys, do you know when the next edition of ODE and Concise OED will be published?

user227867

I cannot find any information on this matter anywhere.

Tonepoet

I doubt they make announcements. It'd be pretty much saying "don't buy the current edition".

user227867

22:33

They were published in 2010 and 2011 respectively, about time for a new edition to come out.

user227867

@Tonepoet Oh, I have more or less decided to get one of these two. =P

Tonepoet

On average collegiate dictionaries seem to be released once every decade.

user227867

The current price on bookdepository.com is very good. You may want a new copy for yourself.

user227867

@Tonepoet I was looking at various American dictionaries. I think the British ones seem better.

user227867

I was reading up on Merriam Webster Collegiate, American Heritage, and Webster New World College.

user227867

22:37

I also noted that the name Webster can be used for any of a number of unrelated American dictionaries.

Tonepoet

Yeah, Merriam-Webster lost a series of trademark lawsuits.

user227867

I have the impression that MW is not really great but only uses Noah's name.

user227867

The great man died so long ago, and the current dictionaries have nothing to do with him.

user227867

@Tonepoet Are you Noah Webster in disguise? =D

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy That's more or less accurate now. It may not have always been the case though. James Somers strongly advocates use of the 1913 Merriam Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary.

user227867

22:41

@Tonepoet Which is a century out of date, LOL.

user227867

@AndrewLeach I thought you should be sleeping already.

user227867

@Tonepoet It appears to me that Americans might be best off using NOAD. =)

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Don't be so sure about that JasperLoy . Since it is effectively the last public domain resource from Merriam-Webster It's widely reduplicated and used as the basis for newer dictionaries to date. You might want to read Collaborative Literary Creation and Control: A Socio-Historic, Technological and Legal Analysis

user227867

@Tonepoet Wow wow, you seem to know many things.

Tonepoet

Anyway it's not worth buying a copy for most people since it's a public domain resource. You can find the full text easily online.

user227867

22:45

Yeah, but I am a book lover. I love physical books.

Tonepoet

True, but if you're going to spend your money on a reference text, you may as well get info. you can't easily access, unless you need to judiciously verify the contents of the book.

user227867

By the way, the latest edition of AHD looks lovely.

user227867

I am going to bed, good night @Tonepoet. You should sleep more!

Tonepoet

The American Heritage Dictionary is probably the only new dictionary series I'd buy into for guidance honestly.

G'night @JasperLoy and look at Oxford's definition of usage panel later. XP

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…