English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kitḫ

18:00

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Who cares? She's just chattel.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, one way is to point out that religion doesn't make the laws, or else divorce would probably be illegal

@Kitḫ oh right, forgot

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 We all know that this never happens.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I'm pretty sure the bible talks about it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right, you could say that.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 sorry, god only told me about man to woman lustiness

3

Cerberus

18:00

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Really? But I thought women are supposed to be asexual?

Kitḫ

> see the EPC "Position Paper on Homosexuality"

giggles

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I love how they're trying to make it sounds academic.

It is always hilarious to hear someone with a decent, educated accent and language who suddenly uses words like "Lord Jesus".

I never see that in real life, only on television, because Dutch evangelicals don't live in the civilized parts of the country.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus I love how they don't giggle when they say "position" and "homosexuality" together.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Hah, yes. hadn't noticed that one.

It is a bit like a decent-looking man who turns out to be a Nazi and says Nazi things.

Kitḫ

I think they endorse threesomes though. I'm not sure.

> This relationship between the man and the woman in marriage is informed by the relationship of the three persons of the Trinity, where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in essence, power and glory, while admitting different functional roles.

Cerberus

18:04

Not that Evangelicals are as morally deficient, but it is a similar feeling of alienness.

@Kitḫ Haha hawt!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus hmmmm, incesty. not my idea of hawt ;)

Kitḫ

►

Cerberus

How about the Mother, the Daughter, and the Holy Microwave?

Kitḫ

Again, funnier if you don't know the title.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен You're so old fashioned.

Matt Эллен

18:05

I know

what can I say. sex with ones son does not turn me on

Kitḫ

►

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I like her hair!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Ooh, Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. How come the Christians aren't doing more of that destroying? Seems like a pretty clear requirement.

Cerberus

I presume those accents are all fake?

Kitḫ

Accents?

Cerberus

18:11

Their southern, rural accent.

Or whatever it is.

Of the Satanists.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

►

user19161

0

Q: Is there a better, existing word for “antifragility”?

Nassim Taleb, on a recent episode of Econtalk, talks about his upcoming book that aims to coin the word antifragility. The essential meaning is close to the phrase “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” — a system or process that benefits from volatility, stress, or uncertainty. Examples: ...

user19161

Someone asked this a few months ago! And deleted it.

user19161

Deja vu.

user19161

10 answers were given but he flagged for it to be deleted, another user.

Kitḫ

18:19

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is that a transgender person?

user19161

Looks like it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Could be. I found that video on the Skeptics Annotated Bible for Romans 1

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Naaaaah you think so? Looks more like a lesbian to me.

She looks all sturdy and down to earth.

user19161

I had a lesbian classmate who looked so male that every lecturer thought she was male.

Kitḫ

Her voice sounds very masculine.

Pretty woman, though.

user19161

18:22

@Kitḫ Not as much as you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I just thought it was funny that according to Romans 1 God made people gay as a punishment for not worshipping him enough.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I never knew that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wonder if he'll turn me gay!? I don't worship him at all!

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Sounds lesbian rather than formerly-man to me...

user19161

I worship myself.

Cerberus

18:24

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Better pray that he won't!

user19161

@Cerberus But pray to who?

Cerberus

I know some lesbians and semi-lesbians who sounds like that.

@WillHunting Reptiles?

user19161

@Cerberus semi?

Cerberus

Well, lesbian-looking and acting girls who may date men.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If I thought praying would help, I'd probably be worshipping him already!

Kitḫ

18:25

He's a transvestite.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Kitḫ

Gay man.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Really? Wow.

user19161

If a girl has very short hair what are the chances that she is lesbian?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What are you doing?

Kitḫ

18:26

@WillHunting Depends on how many women she's had sex with.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Excellent.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ What if she only lusts for them?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus something I found on facebook

user19161

The woman who cuts my hair has very short hair, but I think better not ask her if she is one.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Hmm. I'm not sure if that counts.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 We conventionally use this:

Kitḫ

18:27

@WillHunting Not unless you are asking her out, and even then I wouldn't.

Cerberus

Ontbijtkoek

An Ontbijtkoek (literally translated breakfast cake) is a Dutch spiced cake. Rye is its most important ingredient, coloring the cake a light brown. It is often spiced with cloves, cinnamon, ginger, succade and nutmeg. Several parts of The Netherlands have their own local recipe, of which the most famous is "Oudewijvenkoek" (old hags' cake) which is mostly eaten in the northern regions, and is flavored with aniseed. Ontbijtkoek is originally served at breakfast with a thick layer of butter on top, as a replacement for bread. However due to its sweet taste it is also served as a snack. Orig...

user19161

@Kitḫ No I am just curious. And maybe she thinks I am gay.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ You're saying sexual orientation is not fixed but acquired?

user19161

@Cerberus I think it can even change.

Cerberus

@WillHunting Science says it can't.

user19161

18:30

@Cerberus I think science is silent on this.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Well, God gives it to you.

Good.

I mean, he gives it to you good.

If you're good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Actually there is a scientist who is studying late-onset homosexuality which seems to occur a lot in women.

Kitḫ

He gives it to you if you are good.

sighs

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Like Zeus appearing by your bed at night?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129050832

Kitḫ

18:31

@Cerberus Or in a golden shower, yes.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Maybe they got tired after failing to find the right guy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting better not leap to conclusions, you could get hurt

Kitḫ

I seem to remember that Zeus liked golden showers.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, there is a difference between not acting on a latent desire and not having it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Zeus, that guy was into EVERYTHING. like, turning HIMSELF into an animal and THEN getting women pregnant.

@Cerberus no, these are documented cases of a change in sexuality

user19161

18:32

Perseus is better.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yup! I think that was ehm what's Perseus' mother called again?

Kitḫ

Danae, wasn't it?

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yes!

JSBᾶngs

IMHO it's counterproductive to look at gayness as an immutable quality rather than a set of behaviors

Kitḫ

Wahoo! I did that without looking!

user19161

18:33

@JSBᾶngs Wise.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Right. I have sexual relations with people I am attracted to. Whatever their bits, I am prepared to make it work.

JSBᾶngs

there are lots of women (anecdotally, at least) who switch from straight behaviour to queer behavior and back again

@Kit i was just about to mention you :)

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Really? What were you going to say?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm well, neuroscientists say it is pretty much determined in the womb. But we can't look into people's brains from the subjective point of of view, so perhaps having a latent desire is indistinguishable from not having it, to outsiders/scientists.

JSBᾶngs

arguing about whether these people are "really" gay or "really" straight, or even somewhere on a continuum, is pointless

Cerberus

18:34

@Kitḫ I'm really proud of you.

Kitḫ

bows

user19161

A lot of science is pseudoscience.

Kitḫ

No, it's not.

user19161

And a lot of pseudoscience is science.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus there's research which indicates that, yes, but i wouldn't quite put that into the category of incontrovertible fact yet

@Kitḫ i was just gonna say "one of those people is even in this room"

Cerberus

18:35

@JSBᾶngs Do you know Dick Swaab?

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs One of which people?

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Who?

JSBᾶngs

2 mins ago, by JSBᾶngs

there are lots of women (anecdotally, at least) who switch from straight behaviour to queer behavior and back again

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Blacks, no doubt.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus giggles

@Cerberus giggles harder

JSBᾶngs

18:36

@Cerberus no. who dat?

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Hey, that's a name in your country too.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Oh. But I don't switch.

@Cerberus rofl

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ or maybe you just switch at a higher frequency

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Neuroscientist who's busy researching such questions all the time. Very popular here at the moment.

He says evidence is overwhelming that it's fixed in the womb. But I really wonder how one could ever prove that to be so.

MetaEd

All the Biblical laws about sexual behavior that I ever found had to do with controlling where the penis goes.

user19161

18:38

@Cerberus Evidence is not proof.

Cerberus

@WillHunting True.

MetaEd

Which makes lesbian relationships not even an issue.

user19161

@Cerberus Truth is not faith.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Um, no. Pretty sure there is no switching going on.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus for men or for women or for both?

Cerberus

18:39

I know several guys who didn't "know" they were gay until 27. But in later conversations they do admit that it was never "the same" with girls.

@JSBᾶngs Both.

user19161

@Cerberus That is very late.

user19161

But what did they do with themselves from the onset of puberty?

Cerberus

So I believe they were always (much) more attracted to buy than girls, but they suppressed it or just didn't think they were and therefore did not act on it.

I think that better explains their behaviour than saying that their orientation changed. It is possible, however, that they are to some degree bisexual.

user19161

@Cerberus It is even possible that they were asexual at first.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting definition comprehension failure

Cerberus

18:42

@WillHunting I asked them such questions. They are usually a bit vague. Said they were in love with girls, and didn't really look at the half-naked guys in series such as Baywatch.

I couldn't ask about sexuality any more directly.

Vitaly

0

A: What is the story behind the phrase 'as it were'? Where did it come from?

It's one of those phrases that makes my skin crawl. I've noticed it is used a lot by pseudo intellectuals.

Kitḫ

I didn't understand my attraction to women when I was in high school.

user19161

My personal take on the matter is that orientation can be rather fluid.

Kitḫ

My feelings didn't make any sense to me until I kissed a girl and I liked it, and I went "oh. duh."

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Then what did you think it was? You didn't realize it was there?

Kitḫ

18:44

@Cerberus I want to look like her. I want her to like me. I want to be cool like that.

Cerberus

@WillHunting Ehm no, they did perform sexual acts. Nearly everyone does.

Kitḫ

Sounds like regular girl behavior.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus To the degree that anything in science is ever proven, you can form a theory that explains how the biology of gayness works, then collect evidence to support your theory, and make predictions using your theory and see how well they hold.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Yeah.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But how? You have to go by how people describe their own behaviour and desires.

In the past.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus But it didn't feel the same way for some girls. For one girl in particular. I never did understand it until later.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:45

@Cerberus Well, to some degree. But there are other techniques.

Kitḫ

It was just as confusing in the other direction, to realize that the "like" or "attraction" I felt toward boys was often friendship or competition.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, a recent experiment gave people a survey which allowed the experimenters to rank a person on the basis of their homophobia. They then divided the groups of men into two: homophobic and non-homophobic, and showed them porn (straight and gay). They used an instrument to measure penile blood flow to gauge arousal.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Hmm so was it like infatuation?

Or sexual?

Or is that distinction not so clear in a woman's heart?

Kitḫ

It's hard to remember.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hawt!

Kitḫ

18:48

Did I really know what sexual attraction was in high school?

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Well, I certainly did.

MetaEd

5

A: Interjection, the sound of a bell?

Ringing sounds (nouns) bell – the sound that a bell makes when it rings bong – a long deep sound that a bell makes chime – a ringing sound made by a bell, or by a clock with a bell inside it ding – the short sound that a bell makes ding-dong – the sound that a bell makes jingle – the sound that ...

Cerberus

But apparently many kids don't.

MetaEd

The last comment is making it very hard for me to restrain myself from posting the joke.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus I had sex in high school, but I don't know if I would have recognized the distinction.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:49

@Cerberus Can you guess what the results were?

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I really think there is also a difference between boy and girls here.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The homophobes were more aroused at gay porn?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd Just go for it

Kitḫ

@MetaEd Why is that open?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes.

Thus reinforcing the widely-held stereotype of "methinks thou dost protest too much"

Cerberus

Well, that is interesting, but...extremely confusing and inconclusive.

Kitḫ

18:51

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's too bad. It probably has more to do with breaking taboos.

Cerberus

Could be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus actually, it gives a lot of insight into homophobia. Because if these men are actually more gay than non-homophobes, but they resist their urges, it may be the cause of the belief that gayness is a choice. After all, these guys feel the gay urges and resist, why can't those other gays resist too?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 There could be a hundred other explanations.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ Hmm ... very close to duplicate. One is a request for interjections, the other for nouns.

What should we do?

Cerberus

Such as what Kit says.

Kitḫ

18:52

What? What did I say?

Cerberus

And don't forget that these men are an extremely non-representative selection.

Kitḫ

I need more coffee.

Cerberus

That it may have been the breaking of taboos that aroused them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, you misread what I wrote. The experiment doesn't explain why the homophobes were more aroused. It only demonstrates that they were.

@Cerberus How do you know?

You didn't read the paper to see how the men were selected.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No but it is immediately obvious.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:54

@Cerberus It's not obvious to me.

Why isn't it a representative sample of men?

Cerberus

If I were an insecure homophobe, would I be willing to have my bloodflow measured while watching gay porn? Probably not as readily as very confident ones.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You probably weren't told of the experiment ahead of time.

Typically they control for that sort of thing by telling the subjects that they are doing something different than they are.

Cerberus

You would know something when the measuring apparatus was attached to your apparatus.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You might not know how it works. You might not know what they are doing. The point is, you weren't there, and psychologists and biologists have been doing experiments like this for decades. Don't just assume that they can't control for sources of error.

Cerberus

Fine, I can't be sure.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:57

Anyway, my point was, this was an experiment where they did not have to rely on the honesty of the people describing their gayness. They used a proxy measurement instead.

Cerberus

I would have to read all of it.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 hmmm, I don't think that would pass an ethics commity

Kitḫ

@Cerberus And watch the videos too, right?

Cerberus

I am extremely distrusting of psychological experiments that try to quantify things in this matter.

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен Sure it could.

Cerberus

18:58

@Kitḫ Mebbeh...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен why not? psychological experiments routinely lie to the subjects about the nature of the experiments.

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 This is a good point. It's not that we can't think of good reasons why a study might be a bad one, it's that the errors we can think of are certainly even more obvious to an expert who is conducting a study in his area of expertise. There are still bad studies though; it's important to see whether the study was reviewed by a board of reviewers for a journal with a good reputation.

Matt Эллен

deception is very hard to get past an ethics commity

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Just to make sure the gay ones were sufficiently gay.

And not like, just some oral with a girly looking man.

Or something.

@MattЭллен It's not that hard. I'm sure a committee would pass that one.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…