English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

SmokeDetector

01:13

[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating characters in answer: Word For When You've Been Forced to No Longer Trust Something or Someone by applejack on english.stackexchange.com …

Lawrence

01:24

@Wrzlprmft You do realise that you're asking for an answer in comments in a question in an answer about answers in comments, don't you? :)

Martin AJ

03:25

I want to say: "what's your opinion about something?". So which one?
- what about something?
- how about something?

Tonepoet

What do you mean to convey?

Martin AJ

I'm suggesting you a solution for your problem, and I want to know what's your opinion about that solution .. How can I ask it?

Tonepoet

In that case, either would be used and it's mostly a matter of preference, but I prefer what semantically.

Martin AJ

ah ok

Lawrence

04:38

@MartinAJ "What about using a hammer?" vs "How about using a hammer?" vs "What's your opinion about using a hammer?" --- each of the first two is commonly used as an immediate reply to something like "This shelf support wouldn't go in." The last is more appropriate if the context hadn't been established by (immediately) prior conversation. Between what and how, how is slightly less confrontational, but they're essentially equivalent indications that you are about to suggest an answer.

ktm5124

05:20

@Mitch I love seeing Latin here. By the way, do you currently study (or practice) Latin? If so, how?

caub

05:37

@Mitch me 2 <3

fiat lux (just saying this because sun is raising)

Wrzlprmft

@Lawrence No, where does that in a question come from? Also, those questions will be answered like this.

Tonepoet

06:06

I'm somewhat irked by answers in the comments, despite having made a few myself. It seems dismissive much of the time and more importantly, preempts the more thoughtful sorts of answers that are formally expected of the S.E. network.

What's particularly troubling about it is that it affects the U.I. Most "unanswered questions" were answered in the comments, so finding a truly unanswered question in our backlog is difficult.

Lawrence

06:39

@Wrzlprmft I trust you saw the smilie at the end of my previous message to you. Anyway, since you asked: your question is, quite justifiably in this case, asked in the 'answers' section of the page (hence the middle portion: 'question in an answer'). Replies to your question would by necessity be placed in comments under your 'question as answer' (hence the initial portion: 'asking for an answer in comments'), where the substance of your question was about 'answers in comments' (last portion).

@Tonepoet Among other reasons, I think this arose from a spate of meta questions, accompanied by down-votes and strongly-worded comments to answers (on main), to the effect of "Don't even answer this question, or else! ... But feel free to post answers in comments instead." (cont'd)

(cont'd) Some people don't want to go through the bother of properly substantiating answers, so post what they have as comments, with the full expectation that others are free to use those comments as the basis for their 'proper' answers, with whatever rep movements that might entail.

Tonepoet

Yeah, I understand most of that, aside from the last bit perhaps. It takes on the taint of plagiarism to just elaborate once a correct answer has already been suggested, the questioner probably loses interest and it's just less satisfying to seem derivative rather than original. XP

Lawrence

(cont'd) Some other communities have a strong edit to improve culture. ELU has a delete to improve faction (i.e. preserve the database by deleting low-quality posts instead of editing to raise the quality of those posts). This has had a side-effect of shifting the more experienced users to the comments, while people who don't have any idea of the site's norms sometimes feel free to post whatever they like in answers.

Tonepoet

06:54

Part of the reason for that is that there's a high noise to signal ratio. I can't help but feel that sometimes we're too quick to close answers just because they can be though. I'm growing annoyed at the Morton's fork Gen. Ref. and the P.O.B. close reasons seem to have created.

If word questions can't be answered by the dictionary immediately, they're considered too subjective to be answered.

Lawrence

(Heading off for a bit - feel free to continue posting, and I'll pick up the conversation again when I can.)

Tonepoet

Okay, I'll see what I can of you later.

I probably won't write too much though, because I'm trying to figure out if there's any name for applying a suffix to the wrong word class for an answer I'm writing. The best I can find is stacking constraint/restriction but that seems like a broader category.

If it's even right at all...

Lawrence

09:46

@Tonepoet I'm back for a few minutes :) .

@Tonepoet Sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Malapropisms, perhaps? Just a wild guess.

M-J

11:47

hi

NVZ

@M-J Hey, what's up?

M-J

Great, thanks. I have a question.

@NVZ To have somebody do something most commonly means to cause somebody to do something (eg, ask, force, pay). But can I use it like this way about my broken laptop? I had someone repair it for me. meaning, I paid someone to repair it for me?

NVZ

Yea, it sounds okay to me. I'm not a native English speaker, though.

M-J

What language do you speak?

If you don't mind me asking...

anyways, thanks for your response.

NVZ

I speak English very well. My native language is Malayalam. I also know Hindi, Urdu, Tamil and Arabic.

What about you?

M-J

12:00

I speak English and Farsi.

However I don't speak the first one "very well"! But Farsi is my mother's tongue.

NVZ

Say "mother tongue" without the "s"

:)

M-J

Uh, thanks for noticing it :)

or mentioning it! :))

Where do you live? Why did you learn Urdo?

(Urdu)

NVZ

Since you're eager to learn English, checking out English Language Learners would be good for you. :)

I am from south of India and that's how I know Malayalam and Tamil. Hindi and English are taught in school. I picked up Arabic and Urdu from my years spent in the Middle East.

M-J

Yes. I've been there before. I think it's very kind of the people who try to respond to your questions, but most of the times, my questions are very strange and subtle! So I prefer to ask them from someone online.

So you have a lot of experience! and presumably you're around 30. :)

NVZ

Nah, Just 24. :)

You? If you don't mind.

M-J

12:10

Wow, are you from a rich family?

I'm 23 ):

NVZ

Middle-class. Why do you ask?

M-J

I've not been ever out of my country.

NVZ

Iran?

M-J

Yes.

NVZ

I gotta go, take care.. :)

M-J

12:12

Our money is quite worthless. So it's really hard to go out. We have a good life inside though. I still hope that I can someday go abroad.

Take care. Have a good day.

NVZ

I admire Iran in a sense. It is in my opinion the only Arab country with democracy.

Am I wrong?

Cerberus

12:42

It's not really Arab.

And it is only partly democratic.

How about Tunesia or Lebanon?

Iran is also not a very free country.

But, yes, it is better than many Arab countries in some ways.

Mitch

12:58

@Tonepoet I'm still not understanding this attitude. An answer in a comment should have the obvious implication that the question was not worth a real answer, and probably is a LMGTFY, or 'don't go away angry when this is closed real soon' flag.

@Cerberus by 'not really' you mean 'not at all', like Turkey or Pakistan

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, well, their script is Arabic, and they were part of the Arab Empire, and they have assimilated very important elements of Arab culture.

Mitch

@ktm5124 Practice? I'm trying to un learn it. Each use removes it from my head. Hilarem datorum diligit Deus, comme ils disent.

Cerberus

So perhaps in a very broad sense it is defensible.

Mitch

ipse dixit. op cit

@Cerberus by the same logic, Persia had conquered most of the Arab countries at some point, likewise penetrated their culture, and provided, through Zoroastrianism, the scaffolding for the monotheistic Abrahamic religions.

So also defensible to call everyone in the middle east Persian. to the same extent

it's not defensible. Yes, it is a common mistake to conflate Arab and Muslim.

Cerberus

13:14

@Mitch That is a good point, although I don't know enough about Persian influence on Arabia (it happened so long ago).

You could say that Arabia was partly under Persian influence.

Mitch

It's a mistake on the same level as Poles and Northern Italians. Both Catholic, both sort of maybe look similar, both are nominally in Europe.

Cerberus

It's just that whatever marks it left are not very visible.

@Mitch That's different.

Mitch

@Cerberus Name a famous Middle Eastern Scholar

OK not Avicenna

Cerberus

Well, he.

Mitch

@Cerberus How?

Cerberus

13:16

You mean from the Arab World?

Mitch

Yeah

(I'm going out on a limb here)

Cerberus

Are Egyptians allowed?

Mitch

A famous one from not now but from 1000 years ago.

so Ed Said no.

Cerberus

@Mitch There was never an Italian empire that conquered Poland, for example.

@Mitch Hypatia?

Mitch

@Cerberus and poland didn't conquer northern Italy either. So point taken

@Cerberus Nice.

But hm...that doesn't fit my unstated criteria

Cerberus

13:19

Now, if you said England, then, yes, that is in a way Roman.

Mitch

also egyptians weren't remotely arabic before 630 AD

@Cerberus maybe england would work.

Cerberus

You didn't say Arabic.

Mitch

but I feel they are closer to being italian that Persians are to being Arabic

tchrist

@Cerberus That would be Arrakis.

Mitch

I was trying to present parity.

Cerberus

13:20

The thing is, the Roman Empire was so long ago, that many people have moved around.

@Mitch Who are closer to being Italian?

Poles?

Mitch

@Cerberus 'arabic' world also a mess

Cerberus

You can be close without falling under the other's dominance.

@Mitch Yes, but it is far more recent.

The structure of the Arab empire was I think never thoroughly destroyed.

Mitch

right. Poles. the analogy was poles to Italians as Persians are to Arabs. but that is a poor analogy given the Persians are further away.

Cerberus

If only because there were never any large waves of immigration.

As far as I know.

Mitch

@Cerberus Turks?

Cerberus

13:22

There were Turks, that is true.

Though not in Persia.

And they basically took over the entire structure of the Arab empire.

Mitch

Arabs themselves spread over North africa, colonizing (same people displacement/mixing as 'immigration')

Cerberus

So there's a lot of continuity there.

@Mitch Yes, I meant after the Arabs conquered what they conquered.

Mitch

@Cerberus which you could say took over the structure of the Persian Empire at the time.

Cerberus

If a large immigration wave had washed over e.g. Persia from outside the Arab world, things would have been different.

Mitch

which you could say inherited from the Alexandrian Empire (Greek) before it.

which you could say inherited the structure from...

The Persian Empire.

drops mike

tchrist

13:24

What "Arab empire"?

Cerberus

@Mitch Probably to some degree, yes, absolutely. But that is far longer ago.

Mitch

unless maybe you invoke Sumeria and Mesopotamia

Cerberus

No, you're absolutely right.

The Arabs were no doubt influenced by the Persians to a considerable degree.

Mitch

@tchrist I'm giving benefit of the doubt that he means the Muslim empire ~ 630AD

Cerberus

What's wrong with that?

It was an Arab empire too?

Mitch

13:26

yes, but it morphed quite a lot, first the Abbassid's were Persian rulers (so you could at that point stop calling it Arabic and start calling it Persian).

Then the Mamelukes (Egyptian)

Then the Turks (Ottomans)

tchrist

@Mitch The invading moors it took Iberia seven centuries to expel?

Cerberus

You mean stop calling it Abbasid and now call it Arab.

Mitch

all covering roughly the same geography (sort of) but definitely mostly the same religion (Islam)

@tchrist slow and steady wins the race.

Cerberus

The religion and the script were only introduced once the Arabs conquered it all.

The religion and the script are decidedly of the Arab paeninsula.

Mitch

SUre there's a great cultural center around Islam. But ethnically all different.

Cerberus

13:29

Of course.

tchrist

List of Muslim empires and dynasties

Scholars debate what exactly constitutes an empire. Generally, they may define an empire as a state that extends dominion over areas and populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power. This list is intended to show some of the States, Empires, or Dynasties that were ruled by a Muslim elite, or were in some way central to or a part of the Empire. Many Muslim empires had strong influences on the visual arts, architecture, music and food. == History == In the centuries after the life of Muhammad, Muslim armies poured out into all surrounding areas...

Mitch

So calling a persian Arabic is not just technically wrong, it'll piss off a lot of persians

Cerberus

But, in a way, there is something to be said for calling the entire former Arab empire "Arab" where they still have the originally Arab religion and script.

Not that I would call it that.

@Mitch I think it is more wrong that right. But it's not absurd.

Mitch

@Cerberus And that 'something to be said' would be disagreed with by all involved, vehemently by non arabs, but also by arabs

Cerberus

It's like calling France, England, etc. "Latin Europe".

Which is actually a common designation.

At least when describing mediaeval Europe.

Mitch

13:31

@Cerberus OK. THat doesn't sound bad.

The analogy would be better if Germany was part of that.

Cerberus

@Mitch How long have you known me? You know I really don't like to judge language by the number of people that use term x.

@Mitch Germany is part of it.

Mitch

(because of the German invasions, pretty much all of Europe is partly ethnically german, even if half culturally romance)

Cerberus

Depending on how far east you consider Germany to go.

Mitch

@Cerberus the baltic

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, you could say most of Europe is "German", I think that's a fair comparison.

Mitch

13:33

the rhine and whatever the name of that wall is is not enough

Cerberus

Excluding the south of Italy, the south of Spain, Portugual, Greece, and most of Eastern Europe.

The fact that it pisses off the French is none of my concern.

If anything, that makes it funnier.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think we've misunderstood/misinterpreted each other here, too many layers to unravel.

@Cerberus agreed.

Cerberus

I corrected someone who called Persia "Arab". I never call it that, and I said it was mostly wrong. But, when pressed, I added that it was not absurd and to some degree defensible.

@Mitch Good.

The historic discipline is all about continuity and discontinuity.

Mitch

There might be some ethnic arabs in the far south. Or maybe I'm confusing that with Persians who are Sunni in that area. But that's the only real overlap. to use an ethnic name, Arab, to apply to an a people of another distinct non-overlapping ethnicity is an error. Both sides would agree that they are not the other.

and 3rd parties too.

arabs != Persians != Turks.

Cerberus

Well, one problem is that "Arab" is not wholly ethnic.

Mitch

13:39

It's not?

Cerberus

I would say it has become more?

The people of e.g. Morocco are probably not of Arab descent, I would guess?

Arab is also a language. Like Latin.

In a way, the Latin and Arab languages are ethnically of the peoples of Latium and Arabia.

But also not.

I'm sorry, I really need to make a call now.

2

(I think many people—though not most—who are considered ethnically Berber speak Arabic?)

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm not sure. Algeria is mixed, with a large indigenous population of Berbers, but mostly ethnically arabic. I'd guess Morocco would be similar but not sure.

I've always wondered about Egypt. They're ethnically related to Arabs (unlike Turks/Persians) but I'm not sure if they 'are' Arabs.

Cerberus

I would not call them that.

But I think we're bumping into the limits of ethnicity here.

The limits of the usefulness of the concept.

It is a dangerous concept.

People always say "those people are ethnically x", but do they really know what they're saying?

What constitutes a people?

It's important to be aware and precise.

Mitch

13:57

@Cerberus A cursory google search seems to repeat 'Egyptians are not Arabs'

Cerberus

Haha.

And Egypt can be Arab while Egyptians are not Arabs.

Mitch

@Cerberus By the strictest definition of ethnicity Arabs != Turks != Persians (very little family mixing among them)

Cerberus

Yes, absolutely.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't see that.

Cerberus

Well, the noun Arab is i.m.o. far stricter than the adjective.

Mitch

13:59

sure, arabic is like arab-ish

Cerberus

In fact, I would probably only call people living in Arabia now Arabs.

Yeah.

Mitch

by that strictness I'd say that Egypt is less arab than egyptians are arabic

Cerberus

Although, even for Arabs, a broader sense is defensible.

@Mitch Yes, because "Arabic" can mean the language.

Mitch

@Cerberus that is one strict definition. I'd say that many in libya, levant, Iraq are ethnically arabs

Cerberus

When you add that adverb, you make it slightly less strict, for me.

Mitch

14:01

@Cerberus ok...that is a broader sense then I was thinking (and has its own problems)

Cerberus

It explicates the distinction between "Arab in the strictest sense" and "ethnically Arab".

@Mitch Yes.

Mitch

arabic speaking really does go consistently from morocco continuously through egypt the arabian peninsula, levant, and Iraq.

Cerberus

Yes.

Probably not Somalia?

I'm not even sure.

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm not sure I get your distinction. speaking arabic and being ethnically arabic are also very different.

Cerberus

You could say that.

What I meant is, why do you add the word "ethnically"?

In order to clarify something, no?

Mitch

14:03

@Cerberus THey're muslim but not arab or arabic speaking (except of course in religious study, but not MSA)

Cerberus

To make sure it's understood correctly.

@Mitch Right, I didn't think they were.

Mitch

@Cerberus yes. speaking arabic is language, ethnically arabic is your parents.

Cerberus

No, you said "ethnically Arabs".

Which I think was proper.

Mitch

language determines ethnicity as much as religion does.

Cerberus

Yes.

And other customs.

But ultimately also what one feels one is, just as with nationality.

Mitch

14:05

ethnicity is not particularly malleable. but language and religion are.

Cerberus

And religion.

How do you mean? Why not?

If you feel e.g. French or Berber or Arab, then I think that is an important part of belonging to a people, although it is indeed absolutely not the only part.

Mitch

maybe I have been using ethnicity wrong this whole time and really mean racially

Cerberus

Ummm.

Race is a 19th-century concept.

Based on false premises.

I'd rather not use it at all.

@Mitch I think you have used it correctly.

You added "ethnically" to make sure it couldn't be misunderstood to mean "people who live in Arabia proper".

Or "people who live in the country called something with Arabia", like Saudi Arabia or the Arab Emirates.

You can be French in that you have the French nationality or live in France, but be ethnically Vietnamese, if you e.g. mostly speak Vietnamese and live by Vietnamese customs.

"Ethnically" is often used to distinguish between "country" and "people".

Adi

14:48

what is the meaning of the word preconceived ? Can't understand the google thing

preconception'

Lawrence

15:09

@Adi A preconceived belief is basically an opinion that's formed before checking out the facts. E.g. someone sees a course whose name has a term they associate with dread (maths, or history, or whatever). If, before taking a single class, they take the position that the course must be really tough, that position is a preconception.

Adi

o

oh

ok thx

Lawrence

15:26

:)

Tonepoet

@Lawrence The question specifically asks why skilling isn't a word and I want to say it's because you're applying -ing to a noun (noting that there are some exceptions as par Websters New International 2nd ed.)

Lawrence

15:55

@Tonepoet That particular construction is known colloquially as verbing nouns - i.e. turning nouns into verbs, and I suppose nominalising them again by adding -ing.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…