English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:04 PM

@Cerberus Sure, students themselves just don't have the experience to judge accurately. But I'm not talking about self assessment. I'm talking as someone who can see many years later what has been taught and what is actually used directly.

Cerberus

Where did you first learn that light was a very fast beam?

Where did you first learn that un meant "one"?

That Hitler was semi-democratically elected?

You will forget many things you learned in high school, but you will remember some things.

And it is also about a mindset.

You will have learned how to learn things.

How to categorise, compare, differentiate, find patterns, etc.

You have learned that mostly subconsciously.

You cannot trace it back.

But something did happen in high school.

My point is: we can't really know how much we have learned in high school, besides factoids and a few techniques.

But there is much more.

caub

3:20 PM

Are there people who pronounce great: gr[i]t? like greet, that would be confusing, nvm

I concur with Cerb, school is a whole construction

Mitch

3:40 PM

@Cerberus I am not discounting the general usefulness of an elementary (and secondary) school education. I'm just saying that a lot if the particulars are actually useless trivia for the great majority of people.

@Cerberus Entirely useless to all but an infinitesimally small group of people.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think you're using an extremely narrow definition of "useful" here.

Mitch

@Cerberus Foreign language is one of the few explicitly useful things to learn (which is doubly sad for Americans where the trend is more and more not to learn any foreign language at all)

Cerberus

"That which can be exactly named as being used in a specific activity at work" → that's not my definition.

Mitch

@Cerberus No I'm using the extremely broad "Will I use this particular fact later in life?".

Very few people go into STEM.

Cerberus

"Fact"?

@Mitch That seems like a rather arbitrary division.

Mitch

3:44 PM

@Cerberus This isn't a question of definition, I'm going from that as the thing to justify.

Cerberus

@caub Hmm I don't think so? Perhaps certain non-native speakers?

@Mitch Going from what?

Mitch

If that is the thing to justify then most everything in school is irrelevant (except STEM, which only affects a few people, and I could give a similar argument there, except there really is a bit of a building up of facts there to get to useful ones.)

Cerberus

It is evident to me that "light is a fast beam" is useful knowledge. To you, it is not. That suggests a problem of definition.

Mitch

@Cerberus "Is this particular fact going to be used later in life?"

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure what "that" is, nor "STEM". But does this mean that you agree?

@Mitch I'm not sure I understand.

Mitch

3:47 PM

@Cerberus STEM = Science Technology Engineering Math

Cerberus

And "facts" are only a small part.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't doubt that there are many parts to the education process that are not 'fact' like.

Cerberus

I didn't think you don't.

It just sounded odd.

Mitch

Irrelevantly, I never learned (or certainly don't remember) that Hitler was democratically elected. I learned about that well outside of school.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Perhaps you had forgotten?

Mitch

3:54 PM

@Cerberus Maybe. Hard to separate memories of history learned as a child and things learned since.

Cerberus

True.

Mitch

The point I'm getting at is that, thought the liberal arts/sciences curriculum teaches many strategies/concepts/behaviors that are useful in later life, the specific facts taught are for the most part rarely used.

Cerberus

It's very hard to separate facts, let alone other (possibly more important) bits of Bildung.

Well, facts are only one part of what you learn; but I also think people remember quite some facts but don't know it.

Mitch

So instead of literature teach psychoanalysis or law, and in history teach more recent/current events. In math more probability and programming. In bio/chem/physics I have a hard time removing things.

Cerberus

Naaah.

You're focusing very much on practical, immediate usefulness of specific facts and techniques.

That's good, but Bildung is also important.

If you focus too much on current events, you lose perspective.

I've heard lawyers say that they have to start from the beginning with new employees who have just graduated in law from a good university.

That's probably an exaggeration, but even law at university is not as practical as one might think.

It's not good to always focus exclusively on the practical and the immediate.

It should be a mixture, depending on what you're doing.

Matt E. Эллен

4:19 PM

@caub The New Castle accent in North East England would pronounce greet and grate and great the same, I think. I don't know if they would pronounce them gr[i]t

Mitch

I think my hidden agenda is two-fold. I know a lot about math teaching in higher Ed. And remembering secondary math educatio, there are the examples I gave were just so many things there that are useless, but could be replaced by useful things that also provide the mathematical that you're speaking of.

Also literature seems like a waste.

Haha that's my true hidden agenda hiding behind the other one.

Might as well just have cultural studies and be done with it.

I should make some diversionary agendas. Hey, descriptivism is a load of 'anything goes' horse twaddle.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен I think they would pronounce all of those words more like great or grit, rather than like greet?

@Mitch Ohhh a hidden agenda!

Mitch

For history teach military strategies, or even better, diplomatic skills

Cerberus

I must admit I have forgotten many things that I learned in high school. However, when I have to help children learn those things, it's much easier for me to pick the techniques and facts up again.

@Mitch I disagree completely.

It's just that the benefits of literature are immeasurable.

In practice.

The exact sciences, and practical techniques are easy to test and trace back.

But that doesn't make them more useful in the broad sense, for life and society.

Mitch

Maybe I'm being sophomoric and the specific facts is really a diversion, and that elementary education is just for literacy and being able to balance your checkbook, and secondary is really intended for the humanties and science strategies, not the particular facts.

Cerberus

4:28 PM

It's a combination, in my opinion.

A bit of everything.

Mitch

@Cerberus literature in a foreign language great for vocabulary/better language learning. And articulateness in your own. But the point of analysis of fiction is just psychoanalysis. So just teach psychoanalysis scientifically rather than empty estheticism.

Said Oscar Wilde never

Cerberus

If you don't mind this impolite fallacy, the belief in numerical measurement and distinct facts or procedures is very Anglo-Saxon and very later-20th-century. It has pervaded many places in society, even government; but it's past its peak, at least in Europe.

Mitch

@Cerberus immeasurable = vague and questionable.

Cerberus

@Mitch That really does not teach you the same things.

@Mitch Don't you think that's rather silly?

It's an illusion to think that you can effectively measure everything that's important.

It's also hybris.

You cannot measure how reading history affects people's mindsets and their attitude towards society, policy, other people, etc.

Attempts by the social sciences to measure such things are perhaps not useless, but they are often necessarily very superficial.

Matt E. Эллен

Geordie accent- part 2- Newcastle accent

►

doesn't exactly demonstrate it, but I think it gives the idea

Ronronner

4:34 PM

Hello

Mitch

Curriculum for 10 year olds: history: spear making, small team tactics, map reading. Biology - first aid for combat. Math - calculations for resource consumption on a campaign. Literature: the Gallic Wars, Freud's Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious accompanied by Captain Underpants. All books with picture on every facing page.

Ronronner

How are you?

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен An idea of how great is pronounced?

I heard leek and speak.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus an idea of how ee is pronounced

Ronronner

@Cerberus I pronunce griit

Cerberus

4:36 PM

@Ronronner Hello!

Ronronner

Hello

Can I ask a feedback?

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Right, but will great sound like that? I should think not?

Ronronner

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/96901/… Is it a good question the mine?

Cerberus

@Mitch You forgot bomb-making and torture techniques.

Ronronner

@Cerberus You can watch here for pronunciation wordreference.com/enit/great

Mitch

4:38 PM

@Cerberus haha you're anticipating my next move. But I'll counter that with updating my history curriculum with two player games, first rock paper scissors then chess.

Ronronner

@Cerberus Can you tell me what are you speaking about?

Matt E. Эллен

Learn a Geordie accent

►

a sounds like e

Cerberus

@Ronronner I think your answer is correct. But you should go over the spelling again.

Ronronner

@Cerberus What do you mean "over the spelling"?

Mitch

@Cerberus Good point. Added to a basic science class. Maybe that's better for an after school 'fun with science' class for the brighter students?

Ronronner

4:40 PM

What I should say?

Cerberus

@Ronronner Go over = check.

Look at your spelling and correct it.

Kit Z. Fox

My ears tingle at the thought of cats purring.

Cerberus

@Mitch A night class.

Ronronner

@Cerberus What is it wrong like spelling in my answer?

Cerberus

In the dungeons below the parliament building.

@Ronronner Yes.

Matt E. Эллен

4:42 PM

I suppose this is a better example.

Learn a Geordie accent

►

Cerberus

@Ronronner Look at your answer and correct the spelling errors.

Matt E. Эллен

it is different

Ronronner

I don't know what can be wrong, Now I go over

@Cerberus Do I need to use "there are many irregular verbs " or "there are much irregular verbs", I think many is right, You can count it.

Cerberus

@Ronronner Exactly: many.

Ronronner

Ok, This was right.

I'm correcting other thing

Cerberus

4:46 PM

I saw several spelling errors.

Ronronner

Is it normal if in 1 years of English study my grammar is bad?

Cerberus

This is not about grammar.

Ronronner

I'm checking it

Ah ok

irregolar and not irregular?

Cerberus

It is about checking your answer when you've finished writing it, and correcting spelling errors that you know.

You can check the spelling of words on dictionary.com.

Or use a modern browser with an integrated spelling checker, and make sure you have English spelling enabled.

Ronronner

@Cerberus Maybe I've correct it, My keyboard is bad. Usually My spelling is right.

Cerberus

4:48 PM

That's why you should go over your answer when you've finished.

Ronronner

I have a spelling checker italian, Can I have both?

Cerberus

Yes.

Ronronner

1

A: I am confused about the past participle

In English there are many irregular verbs (Ex: 'I saw' is a irregular verbs, else You should use 'I seed'), anyway this isn't a irregular verbs. Infrared isn't a verbs, Infrared is infra + red. Emitted use a rules for regular verbs (verbs + ed) and we can divide emitted in emit (verb in present...

Cerberus

You can switch between languages.

Ronronner

Ok :)

Is it right now?

Is it right now*

Cerberus

4:49 PM

Ronronner

Thanks :)

I've set up it.

Cerberus

@Ronronner In chat, you can edit a line by pressing the up key on your keyboard.

The up arrow.

Ronronner

Ok thanks

What's better? "Is it right now" or "Now is it right"?

Cerberus

> Is it right now?

> ~~Now is it right~~

@Ronronner This is much better!

Ronronner

Ok thanks :)

Cerberus

4:52 PM

No, never mind.

Ronronner

Yes, I think.

Cerberus

You used seed as an example of a wrong spelling.

Ronronner

Maybe You haven't understand.

Cerberus

I understand it now.

Ronronner

I meant that in English there're some irregular verbs.

Cerberus

4:53 PM

> You should use 'I seed'

What does should mean here?

Should = must.

But that's not what you meant.

You should use would there.

Ronronner

If see verb was a regular verbs, you have to use seed. but verb see is a irregular verb, so you need to use saw

Cerberus

> was

Ronronner

(Ex: 'I saw' is a irregular verbs, else You would use 'I seed')

Cerberus

This was is a subjunctive: it means "this is not true". Right?

Ronronner

Yes, It is a verb conditional

Cerberus

4:56 PM

> If + subjunctive/past...., ....would

Ronronner

ok

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/96901/… It's right now.

I hope

Cerberus

Good.

> verbs

Is this plural or singular?

> a verb
one verb
two verbs
many verbs

Ronronner

a verb, I checked it

Is it right now?

In English there are many irregular verbs (Ex: 'I saw' is a irregular verbs, else You would use 'I seed'), anyway this isn't a irregular verbs. Infrared isn't a verb, Infrared is infra + red.

Emitted use a rules for regular verbs (verbs + ed) and we can divide emitted in emit (verb in present form) + ed. Using this rules it should be emited, but in English when there is a consonant you have to double it, It becomes emitted.

If you want look some other forms of verb to emit, you can look here

Cerberus

> a...verb

> a rule

Ronronner

I can't change it :(

I tried, I saved it but It doesn't change.

Cerberus

5:03 PM

Does it say why not?

Ronronner

If I go there ell.stackexchange.com/posts/96940/edit, I see "Infrared isn't a verb, Infrared is infra + red. ". If I click on Save Edits, the answer doesn't change

Yes, Of course

Cerberus

Stack Exchange had some technical problems today.

Or perhaps there is a limit to the number of edits you can make.

Ronronner

Ah ok

Cerberus

It's weird.

Ronronner

I will try to it tomorrow

@Cerberus From 1 to 10, How's good my English?

Cerberus

5:07 PM

I can't judge that.

Ronronner

What's your opinion?

Cerberus

Your answer showed that you understand many things, and you could explain how they worked.

But a verbs is basic grammar.

So there are some basic grammar rules that you might want to study.

Ronronner

Duolingo is good for improve it?

Cerberus

Other things were simply sloppy, like the spelling errors, and using a capital after a comma (, It).

I don't know Duolingo.

Ronronner

@Cerberus Some times It's just writing mistake

Maybe I know it but I wrong to write

Cerberus

5:10 PM

Then it's good to go over your text after finishing it and correct the things that you do know.

Ronronner

I write and send, I don't correct always. I will do it

Cerberus

If you read a basic grammar book, you will see many rules that you already know, but some that are new for you. That might be useful.

Ronronner

I can't buy any books now

Cerberus

There are many websites, too, that teach basic grammar.

I don't know which ones are good.

Ronronner

Ok :)

How are you Cerb?

How old are you*

@Cerberus

Matt E. Эллен

5:19 PM

Cerberus is timeless

Ronronner

LOL

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен He lost his watch

Matt E. Эллен

And so forgetful, too

Mitch

@Ronronner Duolingo is great for initial exposure to a language (A1 competence ). It is not good as a reference for grammar or learning any parts of a grammar comprehensively.

Kit Z. Fox

Did you see George Takei's appeal to the Latino community?

In Spanish, no less.

<-- impressed

Rejlan Givens

5:30 PM

hi everyone

Can I cask for a little help quickly please?

Mitch

Yes

Rejlan Givens

Thank you Mitch

How can I refer to the keep of the permit by the holder

in the sense where it is kept

Like

Permit retention

MετάEd

Oh, my! I mean, I didn't know George Takei is a Star Trek icon.

Link?

Mitch

@MετάEd ???

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox

Mitch

5:33 PM

@RejlanGivens do you mean the location or place where you put the permit?

Rejlan Givens

Yes Mitch!

Mitch

Or do you mean a person who is holding on to it?

Rejlan Givens

no I mean in general, I need to use it as a subheding in a document I'm writing which contains provisions about the way the permit should be stored

where it should be stored etc

Mitch

@RejlanGivens Is it supposed to be a special place, like the glove compartment of a car or a wallet or a bank saftey deposit box, or any place, like you left it on a table in the living room or lying on a pile on the desk?

Rejlan Givens

Holding the permit is the closest that I could come up with for what i want to say

no it is construction work and the permit needs to kept on the site

Kit Z. Fox

5:35 PM

@MετάEd George Takei's video

Rejlan Givens

and I need to put it as a subheading

Keep of the permit maybe

Mitch

@RejlanGivens Oh. OK. I think you mean not necessarily say a particular document holder like an envelope or manila folder but generically the location of the document. Is that right?

So a phrase is OK?

I would say write a header (or subheader) something like "Location of the document" if your explanation afterwards is for the person who wants the document, telling them where they can look for it.

Rejlan Givens

the subheading should refer to the manner the permit documents should be kept

Location of the document is almost right

but can I turn that into the sense closer to Holding the permit?

Kit Z. Fox

oh, there's a word for that. Let me think a minute.

Rejlan Givens

because it is his legal obligation to hold the permit in the legaly prescribed place

Mitch

5:38 PM

or "Where to keep the document" if you're about to suggest to the reader a good place for the reader to keep the document, in a file cabinet or folder or at another building etc

Rejlan Givens

not good, the required place, prescribed manner of holding and keeping the permit

it needs to be on the site and available to be presented to the authorities

Kit Z. Fox

Right. Regulations regarding the retention and display of permits.

Rejlan Givens

ahh great Kit

Mitch

"How to preserve the document"
"How to keep the document"
"How to store the document properly"

Rejlan Givens

:)

thank you a lot Mitch

both of you

I was trying to come up with something like that for an hour :)

I was thinking retention from the beginning

Mitch

5:40 PM

I think Kit's suggestion is more appropriate for your circumstances. What I said is more generic, not for special documents like a permit.

Rejlan Givens

but it can also mean that the permit is withheld by the authority

thank you Mitch

Kit Z. Fox

@RejlanGivens No, that's a different word.

Rejlan Givens

which one Kit?

retention?

Kit Z. Fox

You mean, like if the authority takes back a permit or refuses to issue a permit?

Rejlan Givens

can it mean that the permit is revoked?

yes

Kit Z. Fox

5:42 PM

No. You use "revoked" for taking it back, "denied" for non-issuance.

Usually.

Rejlan Givens

thank you again

Kit Z. Fox

Retention just means keeping; it doesn't mean to take back.

Rejlan Givens

I understand now Kit

Kit Z. Fox

:D

Mitch

@Ronronner Hi Ronronner. I edited your answer to correct a lot of the spelling/grammar mistakes. There were a lot of small ones that made it difficult to read at first. Fixing them with as little change in content as possible makes it much easier to understand.

Rejlan Givens

5:43 PM

I feared that I was not going to be understood

difficult to explain a bit

Good to have a place like this on the internet really

:)

thank you guys see you soon

Mitch

Bureaucratic terms can be very vague and nuanced and so hard to pick the right one. Also have alternatives that logically fit just right, but culture happened to choose one over the other.

Rejlan Givens

thanks for the help again

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox ¡Gracias!

Rejlan Givens

yes Mitch I'm currently involved in writing one, in English

Kit Z. Fox

@RejlanGivens no problem

@MετάEd de nada

Rejlan Givens

5:45 PM

greetings from Montenegro

:)

Færd

6:37 PM

It's strange that there are so many questions about the double genitive on ELL and ELU, and there has not been posted a comprehensive answer yet (to my knowledge). These links together could answer some of my questions:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5

In every one of those above, the question has garnered about twice (or more) the upvotes of its most upvoted answer, which sorta proves my point.

tchrist

0

Q: Is there a database of word families?

Is there any where that I can download the database/dictionary for word families? For example one line of it will have something like this: Pellucid, pellucidity, pellucidly, pellucidness A top google search gives me the Word Family Framework of British Council. But it only contains popular...

We do resource requests now?

That will get out of date fast.

And no, we cannot close it. It's been bountied.

Kit Z. Fox

6:53 PM

I thought I put that on Meta.

Oh, that's an old one.

Damn it. I just locked the referred to post.

I think I could lock this one too, but that would be ...

Færd

Does a patient die/lie on a surgeon's 'table'?

Kit Z. Fox

operating table

Færd

That's not called a bed?

Kit Z. Fox

No. A bed has a mattress or cushioning.

Færd

Ah, thanks.

caub

7:01 PM

@MattE.Эллен ah, I thought there was some special accents like that, thanks

oh I confounded mattress with mistress, both are relevant :)

MετάEd

A bed only has a mistress if you are very, very lucky.

Anonymous

7:22 PM

@caub Maybe if they're quoting Futurama :-) youtube.com/watch?v=l_sZ4DmUCw4

MετάEd

7:56 PM

What's a verb that indicates a change from open to closed:

0

Q: What's a verb that indicates a change from public to private?

I need this for a user-interface label on a button that changes a document's status from publicly visible to privately visible, meaning that it can thereafter only be seen by the creator and by administrative users. One idea I had was "hide", but that seemed to give the wrong connotation. When I ...

single-word-requests

Mitch

8:08 PM

@MετάEd 'close'

Next!

'Make private'?

Imprivase?

Cloak?

MετάEd

@Mitch I'm trolling for closevotes, actually.

Mitch

Camouflage

@MετάEd For yourself?

MετάEd

Camouflage. Great word.

For the question.

You could closevote me too, if you like.

Mitch

It seems like a dumb question, but could have a good answer and also not boring. I could care less about 'who/whom' or "is you is or is you ain't" questions

MετάEd

It's not a dumb question so much as it is out of scope for the site.

Mitch

8:14 PM

'dumb' means to me 'should be easy, but I can't be bothered, I'm not psychic so I can't tell what you'll like'.

Camusflage = hiding from your mother in plain sight, and still feeling guilty about it.

MετάEd

Is that like camusflagellation, beating a dead philosopher?

Mitch

8:30 PM

camusflagration - the aftermath of a philosopher's car wreck whose last dying words are "That's not ironic, it's just a poignant coincidence"

MετάEd