@Kitḫ I watched Titanic. It was alright.

zOMG. I just wrote code that worked the first time.

Morning!

smooch

@Kitḫ Ooh! hands congratulatory cheezburger

om nom nom

zOMG! It happened again!

How is this possible?

Anybody know how to make a data pager look pretty?

@Kitḫ put a background image of kittens

Hmm...

No, I don't have any kitteh pics.

Well, I did steal this one a while back...

damn

But that won't fit.

that bird might be in for some trouble if it tries to eat that

Oh, maybe some little buttons would look nice though.

hellohappy.org/css3-buttons

Oh pretty. Thx.

Be careful, though, if you're using css3 and hoping for good cross-browser results.

Yeah, I was just reading that.

I think I'll have to skip it then.

like, the linear gradients don't work in IE

We have a wide variety of browsers.

well, what if the button degrades a bit? might still be acceptable

what's the oldest browser you have to support?

ie7?

Good morning, Mrs. Premise.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I hope so.

@MetaEd Good Morning, Mrs. Conclusion.

@Kitḫ I can't remember the book exactly - something by Cordelia Fine or Lise Eliot, more likely Lise Eliot's Pink Brain, Blue Brain - it was a good roundup of science on gender differences in child development. One of the things I vaguely remember was that there was an early language advantage for girls in Western society but it was basically all explained by how we treat girls differently (e.g., verbally intensive play at the expense of gross motor skill practice) :(

@Kitḫ yeah... well, IE7 won't really support any CSS button things. But you might be able to get away with something that doesn't break IE7 and looks nice on modern browsers

XD

I've got to stop trying to catch up with y'all as you're still yammering. It's hopeless!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 How about just a nice little set of arrow icons for first/next/previous/last?

That should be OK, right?

@Kitḫ icon... images? Should be safe enough

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, well, I don't usually do this sort of thing.

@aediaλ I have never once yammered. Dialogued, discussed, lectured, expounded, argued, chattered, gossiped, conversed, parleyed, babbled, harangued, orated, and even pontificated, but never yammered.

@JSBᾶngs Definitely, it's the tee vee! You aren't feeding the kids enough chicken fried chicken and showing them how we all talk in the Real World! (no, really, in all seriousness, I wish you and your family the best of luck, JSB)

@Kitḫ Have you tried jQuery UI? ;)

jqueryui.com/themeroller/#themeGallery

@MrShinyandNew安宇 blush No. Not yet.

Oh, it's so pretty!

@Kit CSS3 has nice round edges and shadows that degrade ok in IE (at least, I've managed to do them nonhorribly, I think). But what is it you're trying to make again?

I've heard such good things about how easy jQuery is to work with, but I haven't had the time to invest. Is it worth it?

@aediaλ I just need to pretty-up a data pager.

Nothing major.

@Kitḫ jQuery UI is actually really nice. Some parts of it are tricky. But as far as slapping some polish on a web page, I took a shitty old CRM app we used internally, spent a couple days just slapping JQuery UI themes onto it, and it looked professional afterwards. It actually made a big difference to the customer support team, because they felt loved instead of neglected

feels torn

@Kitḫ jquery, by itself, is pretty nice if you write a lot of javascript. It makes browser-based javascript much easier.

JQuery also has a plugin ecosystem (like jquery UI: that's just a big-ass jquery plugin) that lets you easily add certain things to your page.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't. Most of my stuff is server-side. I can't help but think that I could make a bunch of stuff easier if I used more javascript though.

But if you ever write javascript that has to work with the annoying parts of the DOM, or with cross-browser differences, jquery makes most of that easy.

Is it speedy? A lot of our users don't like our load times.

@Kitḫ Yeah, you have to change your mindset a bit and your architecture, as you move stuff to the client.

@Kitḫ Well, I've never noticed it slowing things down. Depending on how you use it, and what you use it for, it can make your site slower or not.

jquery, by itself, is just a utility

not a framework

jquery UI is more of a framework

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ooh! It is pretty!

I'm talking users who are dialing in on a 56K baud modem.

@Kitḫ hm

Well, in that case, you could probably make your site much faster and more responsive if you had an ajax approach to it, because a properly-designed ajax site sends less data over the wire after the initial script loads.

It's like the difference between downloading the app on every page, or just the app's data.

It's crazy. I've never done work like this before and I've been up to my eyeballs in it for over a year, and I feel like I keep encountering issues that if I just knew the right tool, I could make good choices.

@Kitḫ Don't worry about it too much.

Get the main requirements done, and optimize later.

Instead, I feel like I'm going "Flat tire? Well, I've got this spanner." "New alternator? Well, I've got this spanner." "Paint job? Well, I've got this spanner."

I don't know how well something like jquery UI works on dial-up speeds.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, and there's the rub. I can't get this done. There's always, always something else.

Also, perceived performance is important. Have you noticed websites that load, and then only after hte page is loaded, a bunch of style rules get changed? SO used to be like this, after page load it'd highlight certain answers.

That's true.

That delay was because of the typical jquery way of doing things. the jquery philosophy is to serve plain HTML and then enhance it. That works to some degree, but it leads to odd effects.

that delay annoyed me. And for users on slow links, it would be worse.

jquery UI's "normal" mode of operation has that same delay problem. The plain HTML is sent, with no styles, and then the jquery UI javascript adds the classes and whatnot it needs. It leads to a big flash of unstyled content.

(FOUC is the technical term)

I can just imagine how shitty that'd be for a slow link.

I've seen stuff like that once in a while. Looks like ass.

So what I did for my CRM app is I inspected the styles JQ UI was using and pre-set them in the HTML, on the server side.

That makes it look a lot better. But it still isn't perfect (I ran out of time on that project, as usual on every project)

anyway: my point is, jquery ui is useful. it ain't perfect. But also important is how it does things. You can do those things in your app without jquery. example: image sprites. button styling. etc.

@WillHunting I have seen that, and it was also a pretty bad movie.

Bane of my existence!

Some of the nicest things you can do in modern browsers with CSS: rounded corners, box shadows, and :hover highlights. If you have a table, toss in zebra-striping.

@aediaλ there should be a support group for web devs using frameworks that promote fouc (eg jquery). It should be called "Get the FOUC Out"

I hesitate to ask, but would you two take a peek when I am done?

@Kitḫ sure

Absolutely!

Actually if you have some sample code, you could post it in jsfiddle

just a snippet of your html and css, giving us an example of what you already have

I find that a typed, double spaced piece of paper loads really, really fast.

Plus it doesn't support blink, which is a great advantage.

@MetaEd But the initial latency might be quite high

The first page, yes, but all the other pages of the site load instantly after that.

In fact I've linked people to paper handouts at meetings and seen absolutely zero latency at the front of the room and only a few seconds of delay for people all the way in the back.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hey, no dumping on jQuery. I'm addicted to it!

@WillHunting Look, stop "correcting" our lolspeak.

TY LOLed, DWIM, RTFM

tired of styling already

starting to think Comic Sans looks like fun

i recommended to kiamlaluno not to write long phrases, that hamper clarity, but he still does it

@Robusto Oh, I love jquery. But I think it's fair to say that one of the jquery philosophies (i.e. doing everything in document.ready()) leads to FOUC, which is a poor user experience.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Which is why I don't do everything on $('document').ready().

@Robusto gasp! That's not the jQuery Way (tm)!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I mix jQuery and standard Javascript as it suits me. Screw the purists on either side.

what you need to do is do everything inside setTimeout(doEverything, 5000)

One site I used (I think dailymotion.com?) had an issue where the login link didn't work until after document.ready

let the user get nice and comfortable before you go nuts on them

Another site (maybe janrain.com) had an issue where the login link would either navigate you to another page, or pop up a dialog, depending on if javascript had "enhanced" that link or not.

This meant that because I was impatient, my testing of their site was different than other people's, and I was seeing weird bugs that nobody else saw.

Augh! I can't do this! It is too stupid!

@Kitḫ what is?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Which is good. You were representing all us impatient people.

@Kitḫ don't do it!

@JSBᾶngs That just slows everything down.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Frigging with icons to make it look nice! I don't care! Why do I have to do this!?

hides in sack

@Kitḫ users care. cool looking icons are cool.

I just want to write code. pouts

@MetaEd yeah. well, the thing is, they had a bug that was causing certain service-pack versions of IE6 to freeze. it was really annoying trying to get that sorted out.

You just did. See? The word code is right there.

@Kitḫ Your users will feel that the application has fewer bugs if it looks better.

^ That

But it takes for-EVER. And my project lead will look at it and say, hey, what if we made those green? And can you sort the columns?

though actually i'm on your side here, @Kit. i hate making things pretty. that's why i've burrowed into development roles where i rarely, if ever, have to touch a UI

@Kitḫ tell him you can't make those green, on account of the Bikeshed Problem.

@JSBᾶngs I don't have a problem with pretty. I like things to look good. But I also like them to be fast and do cool stuff without getting in the way of an efficient UI experience.

And I will throttle him, and say "I spent all my time putting those stupid images in that spot and lining them up just right, so NO YOU CAN'T SORT BY CLICKING ON THE COLUMN HEADERS yet."

Tell them it's too hard to make it green and they should hire a graphic designer if they want that. (For gods' sake, don't tell them it's just in the CSS, or they will start thinking all colors can be changed in CSS, I swear)

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's effing brilliant.

@Kitḫ Or make all the icons monochrome. A nice monochrome theme will look professional and nobody can bitch about the hue.

Also brilliant. When all the other priorities are done then you can color it in

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The site is already in soothing shades of blue. They thought that was revolutionary.

@Kitḫ blue it is then.

There is no color scheme that can be created which will stand up to a client's grandmother survey.

You know will help? Lunch. Lunch is good.

Later.

Yes, don't give them any new colors to fuss with. Blue. MOAR BLUE

@Kitḫ Enjoy!

You can tell them that Microsoft did some UI study and found that monochrome icons were less annoying to users, which is why Windows 7 has all white icons in the notification area. Since you already have blue, just make them monochrome-blue instead of grey.

Or just chrome them.

I'm thinking maybe I could just say "No, I can't make them green" and then look at him levelly until he feels awkward and changes the subject.

He'll probably do something unexpected, like ask "why?"

Or laugh.

Then I will just continue to look at him.

I might laugh. But not if it were you.

It will creep him out.

Okay, I'm with you.

It would creep me out.

stares @MetaEd

I know what you need, Kit.

!!! I need one of those!

@WillHunting the goggles, they do nothnig!

hey, i just earned the "prepositions" badge. woo?

Yesterday I tried to defuse my daughter's tantrum by pretending to be a chicken. I made myself laugh, and my wife, and my son, who couldn't see me and didn't know what was so funny, but my daughter just kept right on tantruming.

i suppose i'm now qualified to prepose things

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I carry mine with me at all times.

@WillHunting i was reacting to the tags on that angry mad murderer question

@WillHunting to me they are pretty synonymous.

i voted to close as gen ref

I was thinking the mad/angry question might not be gen ref, but then the Wiktionary entry is mad good, better than any answer I can imagine without replicating it...

Tolkien loved das Rheingold.

24 200mg caplets of ibuprofen for $2.19. What a ripoff.

@WillHunting I am not mad.

Nor am I angry.

What if you know you are either mad or angry, but can't decide which? How would you react? With anger?

@Robusto with madness

Crying. Definitely crying.

Then you have solved the problem. Madness solves all problems.

Well, that's interesting. I just got a call that they are going to print my op-ed tomorrow. Also, a bolt just fell out of my chair.

@WillHunting But if you're truly mad, you don't care.

@Kitḫ A crossbow bolt?

@Kitḫ A lightning bolt?

Let me look...no, just a screwbolt.

@WillHunting Show me the data!

I like the idea of a crossbow bolt falling out of your chair. So let's go with that.

Mmm, spinach. It's so good. Spinach, mozzarella, ham slices, kalamata olives, roasted red peppers....

Garlic, oregano, balsamic vinegar.

Stop. You've found my weakness: Mediterranean food.

I feel mellowed.

@Robusto Don't worry, I stuck some broccoli in it.

@Kitḫ Yes, broccoli inoculates me against many tempting foods.

I am so glad I picked fresh mozzarella over feta today.

I like broccoli, but it is rather a counter-point to the savoriness of the salad today.

I need the calcium though.

Cheese has calcium. Mmmmm, cheese ... is there anything you can't do?

We grow our own chard and use a lot of it.

hungry, drools

So. Um. They're printing my op-ed tomorrow. Cheers?

Bravo. <claps>

What op-ed and where printed?

Link?

Wirth's law – Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster.

This is some kind of universal constant.

I started writing then realized that it would pretty readily identify me.

So I guess never mind.

Everybody pout! pout

@Kitḫ What a gyp. <murmurs of discontent>

Well, OK. It's an op-ed about right-to-work legislation.

I'm still not giving you a link!

<drum roll> And you come down on which side?

Would you care to guess? (she asked archly)

I'm guessing you side with the unions.

What on Earth gave you that impression?

You asked for a guess. Who said it was based on anything? XD

Oh. Well, of course I side with the unions.

I KNEW it!

I also felt compelled to write the piece (I've never written an op-ed before) because they have an effing Republican shill on their staff who has completely misrepresented the facts. No, not even misrepresented. He is just wrong. Or lying.

I like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's wrong.

@Kitḫ Good 4 U.

But he's a total douchebag. "You are a 'Republican strategist.' That means it is your job to sell your party's agenda." "No, I'm not. I'm a successful businessman." "Yes, you are. It says so in your byline. You are a registered lobbyist. You are paid by the Republican party."

I mean, geezis, don't frigging lie about it.

If people want to support right-to-work, they should at least support it for the right reasons.

Grr. gnashes teeth

Hm, I don't think we have that in Canada.

Probably not.

Canadians are pretty progressive with labor politics, aren't they?

Um

define "progressive labour politics"

TBH I'm not really up to speed on labour politics.

we have unions. most people can unionize. I think unionization is on a per-workplace basis, i.e. everyone is a member or no-one is.

Well, a higher percentage of Canadians belong to unions (compared to Americans), so I assumed that this translates to better working conditions, higher wages, etc.

Some people can't unionize. Pharmacists, for one.

And also meant that unions have more political clout.

@Kitḫ And higher taxes, since most government workers are unionized.

So is a person's freedom of association violated when they must join the union to take the job?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Our government workers are unionized too. I don't think that's necessarily related.

@MetaEd You cannot be compelled to join a union as a condition of employment.

@Kitḫ In Canada I think you can.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Interesting.

That would make for stronger unions.

I'm trying to find a clear answer. Actually maybe you don't have to join but you still have to pay.

Which is functionally equivalent

It's not the same thing, but that is what we have here.

I think it depends on the state.

It's not "functionally equivalent" that is.

And it does depend on the state, and that is what right-to-work laws are all about.

Right to work states might outlaw membership requirements, or dues or fees requirements.

No, no, no.

So unions are a kind of "workleft"?

Right-to-work states take away the ability of employers and employees to negotiate an agency fee.

You have your "right to work" states and your "workleft" states.

Haha.

"'Right-to-work' laws are statutes enforced in twenty-two U.S. states, mostly in the southern or western U.S., allowed under provisions of the federal Taft–Hartley Act, which prohibit agreements between labor unions and employers that make membership, payment of union dues, or fees a condition of employment, either before or after hiring, which would require the workplace to be a closed shop." Wikipedia

Sorry for the double doubles.

Then Wikipedia is wrong.

gasp

Or more accurately, right-to-work laws prohibit agency fees.

The rest of that is superfluous.

But probably intended to get you to knee-jerk.

"Section 14(b) of the Taft–Hartley Act goes further and authorizes individual states [...] to outlaw the union shop and agency shop for employees working in their jurisdictions. Under the open shop rule, an employee cannot be compelled to join or pay the equivalent of dues to a union, nor can the employee be fired if he joins the union. In other words, the employee has the right to work, regardless of whether or not he is a member or financial contributor to such a union."

Here is the situation in Canada: If a worker works somewhere where they are covered by a union, they must pay the membership fee, or an equivalent fee, to the union, unless they can satisfy the employer about a religious objection, in which case they must donate that same fee to a charity of their choice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_formula

So in Canada you can't be required to join, but you are required to pay.

So the Canada situation is agency.

@MetaEd Agency fees are not the equivalent of union dues. Agency fees are less than union dues and cover only the employee's share of the cost of negotiating and maintaining the bargaining agreement or contract.

And since you are required to pay anyway, why wouldn't you just join

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's a good question, but like I said, agency fees are less than union dues.

@Kitḫ in Canada agency fee == union dues

So your position is that agency fees are fair and just and should be mandatory

where a person is covered by a union

Yes.

All employees agree to work under a contract. Therefore, all employees should contribute to paying for the cost of negotiating and maintaining the contract.

It makes sense, I suppose. What I don't like is that there's no option for people who don't want to be represented by the union.

That's fair.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 They can get a job elsewhere.

Why can't an employee make their own contract?

Wait. Knee-jerking is not allowed if you're a right-to-worker. Us unionizing liberals are the only ones who get to knee-jerk. It's our copyright. Or copyleft. Or something.

The employee can make their own contract. But by making a contract with that employee, the employer would be breaking contract with the union.

@Kitḫ What if they can't? Lots of employers have effective, or de facto, or actual monopolies.

So then you'd have, like, one employee.

@MetaEd what if the employee isn't a member of the union?

@MetaEd yeah. I made my own contract with my employer. No union.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's the point. The employer's contract with the union is that they won't hire non-union employees.

@MetaEd Why is the employer required to have that kind of contract?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Employers? Employers aren't unions.

Employers contract with unions because they want to. Not because they are forced to.

And I have never understood why people object so stridently to union membership anyway.

@Kitḫ No, I mean, for some workers in some jobs, there aren't lots of choices of employment.

"I don't want better wages or fair treatment or protection from abusive employers!"

@MetaEd not so. In many cases the employers have no choice.

@Kitḫ I'm not saying that.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Data?

@Kitḫ Well, if you have a shop, and all your workers decide to unionize, what can you do? It has happened.

There was a walmart here that unionized.

Walmart's corporate response was to close the store.

You fire them all and hire new workers.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm not aware of it, if that's so. Practically speaking, negotiating a contract with the union is probably far and away the BEST and MOST PRACTICAL choice for an employer, but is it a legal requirement?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Very union-friendly.

@Kitḫ well, Walmart, 'nuff said.

@MetaEd I don't know. And I'm not saying unions aren't practical or good. But I do know that lots of workers do just fine, with good salaries, without unions.

The point is, it's not like employers are powerless against unions or unions are powerless against employers.

And I know lots of people who have joined unions and suddenly been paid 2-3x what their skills are worth in other jobs.

And you are right, there are plenty of employers that treat their employees just fine without having a union.

But if work under a contract, you should pay your share of negotiating the contract.

Unions brought an end to a lot of really, really evil business practices.

That contract is your labor agreement.

Anyway, I'm not completely against unions. But I've seen so much abuse by unions that I'm wary of them.

Kit's argument is the "free ride" argument.

Unions brought us the weekend, the 8-hour work day, Labor Day.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Unions can abuse just as much as employers can. If you don't like it, join it and change it.

@Kitḫ All good things. And they shouldn't go away completely or the balance of power will shift too far.

Labor Day? That has a ... rather weird history, actually.

@Kitḫ Well, I can't join the abusive unions, I don't work for the companies/governments in question.

We do a May Day event too.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, then. Don't worry about it.

@Kitḫ Well, it's not like I'm unaffected.

A union is like any democratic organization. It depends on the composition of its members.

When the big auto makers unions are driving up wages so high that the car companies are at risk of collapse due to wages, and factories end up closing because they can't afford to build cars here, I'm affected. When the public-sector unions get wage increases far higher than what the private sector gets, even when the economy is tough, and my taxes go up as a consequence, I'm affected.

Uh huh. Sure you are. So you think breaking the unions is going to fix the problem?

I never said to break the unions. But that doesn't mean that they're doing good.

For every instance of shitty union behavior, there is an instance of shitty management behavior.

In the scheme of things, having strong unions is better than having none at all.

Consider the Toronto public transit system: it's one big-ass union. And there are so many over-paid and lazy workers there (lots of good ones too, don't get me wrong, but I see people working who shouldn't be every day on transit here). But in York region, north of Toronto, their transit system actually is contracted out, and there are three unions. Suddenly, the balance tips a little, and the unions bargain with their bosses, who are also beholden to the gov't. One contractor was fired because

they didn't get the strike resolved quickly enough

So when the unions are competing with other unions for the same work, then you have a better balance, because they can't hold the customers for ransom.

Or if they are competing against non-union shops.

@Kitḫ which the government is never doing, and in some private sector jobs there are no big non-union shops.

Anyway, I don't want unions to go away. But I often see unions doing things I disapprove of.

and I'm going to get lunch now. bbl

OK, bye!

@MetaEd Pretty much. It's about fairness.

This sort of thing gets my panties in a tight bunch.

Fairness is a strange thing.

It's like these people here who object to school consolidation.

"Why should my town give up its school?" "Because you can't afford it!" "The state should have to pay for it. My child deserves an education!"

ok seems I'm eating at my desk today

Aww.

my example of single-word-request 'what is the word for taking food into your mouth"

That's no fun. I'll give you indigestion.

@Theta30 ingesting!

close but I want a shorter word:P

mouthing!

giggles

nomming!

chomping

scarfing

gnawing

devouring

mauing

or however you would write that.

I found it...

EAT

masticating

That's not short.

@Theta30 et

poised with pen, waiting for project lead to give out his credit card number over the phone

just type it here

Even better...

I once saw a personal ad in a newspaper that said "Single female 30yo seeks kind gentleman. Please run this ad Monday to Friday and charge credit-card 433325436451123 expiry 12 09"

gasp

I hope she sued them.

Or maybe not.

beats me. It was in an Aruban weekly paper. The next week the same ad was there only the payment info was removed.

Did you ever see those ads with the guy's real SSN, where he guaranteed security against identity theft?

no, but I heard he had his identity stolen

wired.com/threatlevel/2010/05/lifelock-identity-theft

A record 13 times.