English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

14:01

@Cerberus As a device of argumentation, saying "that is an assumption" is an assumption. If you're saying there's no support for or against and you take it as a starting point (which is what an assumption is), then you have to support that (the declaration that it is an assumption).

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha, fair enough.

Mitch

Also, by looking at evidence, it seems to support that people voted not based on rational economic inferences, but on vague reactive impressions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, there's evidence that people voting for "leave" were uninformed about what they were actually voting for. For one thing, a significant number of major campaign points from the leave campaign were lies.

Cerberus

No doubt.

Mitch

But of course the media could be playing up that story because it is interesting.

making a 'story'

Cerberus

14:03

But still, there are a lot of immigrants in England, and the government did not stop them, even though many Englishmen wanted them to be stopped.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There's also been significant media coverage of people who bregret bvoting brexit

Mitch

so we're all just filling out haphazardly a script that keeps getting extended little by little

Cerberus

I think it's unfair to say the Leavers are all irrational.

Mitch

similarly the stayers. they are voting on preconceived notions too not necessarily rational.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I said "uninformed", not "irrational".

Cerberus

14:04

@Mitch Yes.

Mitch

you could say that 'uninformed' is treating the voting process irrationally

Cerberus

Sometimes, the people don't know what's good for them so you justly try to ignore their wishes and push a policy on them that you're sure is best for them.

But that's not always the case.

Mitch

@Cerberus you should agree with my statement about the media. that is much more profound. eye-opening. also a good story in itself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I also think that people are irrational about immigrants. Their vote is a rational consequence of their irrational feelings on immigrants.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure I understand it entirely.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:06

Their feelings are irrational because they're uninformed; they're basing their conclusions on emotion rather than logic.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right, so that's some degree of rationality.

Mitch

@Cerberus but there's a case for elitism. because the elites know a lot more, they're in a better position to make more accurate judgement, where individuals tend to think only of themselves.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you live in a certain street, and ten years later you can't understand the language and the culture of the people who live there any more, is it irrational to be unhappy about that?

@Mitch Yes, there is a case. But there is also a case against it. Elites usually don't suffer from the same problems are the common man, so they have different interests.

Kit Z. Fox

It is irrational to be unhappy because things change.

Mitch

@Cerberus a lot of media is driven by reporting the most interesting parts. much of those interesting parts are tangential to the primary issues. since people are informed by those interesting tangential parts, made up to be important stories, they can be led astray.

Kit Z. Fox

14:09

It is the nature of things to change. Is it rational to be unhappy when the sun sets or the moon is full?

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, absolutely. Because crime is interesting (to some people — not me), papers write about it all the time and people read it. And it skews their world view.

And the British newspapers are notoriously bad, most of them.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox yes. full moon is a very practical consideration. people can still see you when you rolling away a barrel of methyltrexate from the chemical dispensary in order to supply your meth lab.

I've thought about this.

@Cerberus page 3 is the best.

or is it page 6?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's natural to dislike things. But it's irrational to expect that nothing will ever change, or that you'll always like all changes.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch That's not about the fullness of the moon. That means you need a smarter plan.

Mitch

whichever has the comics and crosswords.

Cerberus

14:11

There are some theories about how the fact that most British newspapers are controlled by a handful of right-wing billionaires causes them to be so bad.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox full moon. part of plan. eyes sweep horizon

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not to mention that the "immigrants are taking over Britain" narrative is totally unsupported by facts. Regions with fewer immigrants voted leave, regions with more voted remain.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it's not irrational to be unhappy. And, if you think the government can stop immigration, is it so strange to vote for a party that promises to do so?

Mitch

@Cerberus my theory is that those billionaires like crosswords

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but probably not neighbourhoods.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:13

@Cerberus It's irrational to believe that the government will actually do anything meaningful about immigration, or that leaving the EU will turn your "can't understand the neighbours" street back to its glory days of whiteness and britishness

Cerberus

And at least in Amsterdam the white lower classes have sort of "fled" the now-Muslim neighbourhoods, to villages and towns in the region.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I wouldn't say that. Generally, contact with immigrants makes people more receptive to immigrants.

xenophobia is usually fueled by ignorance

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch It's true that it's tricky when you need a full moon for the ritual and also need to conceal yourself to steal stuff.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why? If the government won't let any more Poles in, then chances may be lower that there will be lots of Poles moving to your street in the future.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think it can work either way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's a long shot to expect that the UK would stop immigration.

Kit Z. Fox

14:15

OK, this conversation is making me uncomfortable. If you want to continue it, please take it elsewhere.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why do you think so?

Kit Z. Fox

Has anyone read The Magicians?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because the "native" population has too low a birth rate and because any proper deal with the EU will require immigration.

@KitZ.Fox yes.

Kit Z. Fox

What did you think of it/the series?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I only read the first book

I have mixed feelings

Kit Z. Fox

14:16

Was it flat? Or crappy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

on one hand, I like the more realistic hogwarts, with more realistic magical humour (like the concealment spell messing with time)

wait, have you read it?

skill patrol

Brext is a great topic.

Kit Z. Fox

I haven't. I was trying to decide where to put it on the priority list.

@skillpatrol It's a great topic for the Latin room. You can have it there.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As to your first sentence, yes, they can't turn things back. As to your second point, that may be true. It would be hilarious if the government had to choose between economic isolation from Europe and ignoring the referendum.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what's on the other hand?

skill patrol

14:18

Excuse me? Did I even say anything in this conversation?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox trying to explain without spoilers....

There's a major component of the setting which is a basic copy of Narnia

Kit Z. Fox

Is the story told there, or in the real world, or kind of both?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's like, Narnia repainted. Minus the Christian allegory? maybe.

skill patrol

Are you going to ban me now?

Kit Z. Fox

I can't imagine Narnia without the Christian allegory. Just an alternative place?

skill patrol

14:20

3 mins ago, by skill patrol

Brext is a great topic.

Kit Z. Fox

Like Faerie, or Asgard?

skill patrol

I stand by my words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox The book starts off in the real world with the underlying notion that the Narnia books might be real. Only they're not narnia, they're a knock-off

user208178

Good day

skill patrol

It was

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:21

The search for an undiscovered Narnia book leads the protag to join a magic school... IIRC

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A series of books in the story that are like Narnia, but not called that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox yeah, basically almost exactly like narnia.

Cerberus

@skillpatrol Certainly.

user208178

how are we all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, imagine I told a story about a farm boy who lived in a harsh environment who joined a far-travelling group of wizards with lightning swords and who had to defeat a big bad guy who turned out to be his father.

Kit Z. Fox

14:23

Hi @Arrowfar.

user208178

hello @KitZ.Fox how are you?

Kit Z. Fox

Hanging in.

Cerberus

But, well, I guess not much has happened on the island over the past couple of days.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And then I put THAT story inside my other story about a guy who watched the movies of that story growing up and wanted it to be real, then went to find the legendary 7th movie and lo! and behold! he's a space wizard too

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK. So that's a fiction series of stories within this story?

Cerberus

14:24

@Arrowfar Yo.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox yes

user208178

@Cerberus Hey :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It colours the whole story so much... It really bothered me.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And in the story, the fiction turns out to be real?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox no comment

Kit Z. Fox

14:24

OK, so that's the spoiler part.

And did it bother you because of your feelings about Narnia, or was it because it was a rip-off of something, or something else?

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Do you know Saad Lamjarred?

user208178

@Cerberus yes from Youtube. He is a great singer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox That's a good question. Partly, I think, because I felt it copied Narnia too closely. Though that was obviously intentional, meant to appeal to every person who wanted Narnia to be real.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Agreed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not sure why it annoyed me so much.

user208178

14:26

@Cerberus do you listen to him?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are lots of fun things in the book.

Cerberus

Yes.

user208178

cool

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The first book is pretty self-contained. I didn't feel it needed a sequel.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So the removal of the Christian allegory was not obviously intentional?

Cerberus

14:26

Is his song Lm3allem about God?

user208178

wait... let me search.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox I am trying to recall if they addressed that or not. I don't recall there being any Christian allegory.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar The lyrics seem to be about God, but it's not 100% clear.

Kit Z. Fox

So not like "here is Narnia, except just the good bits and not the brainwashing bits".

Cerberus

Lewis was clearly Christian.

But everyone probably knows that.

Kit Z. Fox

14:29

That he was a Christian apologist? Yeah. No one is disputing that.

user208178

@Cerberus oh huh well I can certainly read Arabic but can't understand it well. so I'm going through the translation and will let you know.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm trying to decide if I want to read The Magicians next, or start on one of the two Percy Jackson follow up serieses.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox It's more like "Here's 'Narnia', and magic is real, and now go to hogwarts and learn magic and pine for 'Narnia' and wonder if 'Narnia' is fiction or not"

Cerberus

@Arrowfar I have read the translation.

Kit Z. Fox

Or maybe just read more of Stiefvater's stuff. I find her work compelling for some reason.

Cerberus

14:31

But it's not 100% clear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox You know, it's short, so you're not wasting much time.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm not terrifically excited about Percy Jackson, although the first series was good enough, but I'm trying to keep up with my eldest.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As you know I'm interested with the whole "magic school" thing and this book does address lots of problems that, say, Harry Potter has.

Kit Z. Fox

It would be good for that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The Magicians, btw, is not for children.

Kit Z. Fox

14:32

Good to know.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That is, it has some violence and sex in it.

Not super explicit, but, caveat emptor.

Actually I think it wasn't that explicit. Can't recall.

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah, same for The Raven Cycle, which is what I was reading when I found out it wasn't a trilogy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I guess my biggest problem was that the fake Narnia wasn't original enough and that overall the book wasn't ambitious enough to address what I wanted it to address.

Kit Z. Fox

So it was a good challenge to you.

You have to do it better.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Reading the QnA on goodreads, explains a bit more about what the book lacks: a directed plot. Mostly it's about a guy going to school and he's a bit of a screwup. One poster describes him as mentally ill (like, depressed, or something). Stuff just sorta happens.

Eventually there's a big finish but the main characters got there almost by accident.

I think I will have to re-read it. I need a better understanding of why I didn't like it.

user208178

14:40

@Cerberus No, not about God. he is saying everyone is a "m3allem" a boss or a master so trust yourself. Kind of like a self empowering message to the people. Just like hip hop songs, to liven up the people.

user208178

that's what my interpretation is at least.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Huh. Well, let's both read it and compare notes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox okay. I'll place a hold at the library right now.

Kit Z. Fox

Done deal. Book club!

Maybe we should do that at writer's chat.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Oh, "everyone", really?

Interesting.

He does look up into the sky sometimes when he says it.

user208178

14:51

yeah. it is a fun song.

user208178

well, it was obvious for me that it was not about God because the song has beautiful girls and cars etc. :-) Also the singer is Arab.

user208178

He would be in great trouble if he was talking about God like that in my opinion :)

Cerberus

Naaah.

user208178

well it is the Arab world lol.

Cerberus

God has created beautiful girls, hasn't he?

user208178

14:52

yeah I was partly joking just now.

user208178

of course :)

Cerberus

The Arab world is extremely diverse.

Good, good.

user208178

yeah Morocco is quite nice.

Cerberus

Saudi Arabia is extreme, but places like Persia and Morocco are very different, yes.

user208178

yeah <nods>

Cerberus

14:53

Actually, Persia isn't Arab.

user208178

Also Turkey

Cerberus

Yes.

user208178

And Indonesia I think

user208178

No they are Persian. yep.

Cerberus

There is the Muslim world, the Arab world, Arab countries, and Arabia.

Think those all mean different things.

Indonesia is in the Muslim world, but probably not in the Arab world?

Because they don't speak Arabic.

user208178

14:55

Arab world is only the "Arabic speaking" countries I think. "Muslim world" is quite large though.

Cerberus

Yeah.

user208178

yeah not in the Arab world.

Cerberus

So Arab world = Arab countries.

But Arabian means only the paeninsula.

user208178

yeah that's how I would say.

Cerberus

Then we are agreed.

user208178

14:55

yep.

Cerberus

So I think you won't see that song on television in Saudi Arabia.

But I think it would be fine in all other Muslim countries?

Like Dubai, for sure.

But also Egypt, Iran, Iraq.

skill patrol

OK, this conversation is making me uncomfortable. If you want to continue it, please take it else where

:P

Cerberus

@skillpatrol Haha, nice one.

skill patrol

:D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox Incidentally, another story that does the "Wizard School" thing is "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss. I really enjoyed that series. There is a big problem though, only two volumes exist and I suspect it will require four. It definitely at least requires three.

That said, Rothfuss is still alive and presumably still writing.

user208178

15:07

@Cerberus By the way Cerbs I'm perfectly fond of you and Kit both. So how about you two make up. I would love that, honestly :-) She is a very nice person and you are as well. So it is kind of sad to see you two kind of unfriendly to each other. Just a thought, to make peace :-)

user208178

I mean no offense by the way.

user208178

your choice.

user208178

:)

skill patrol

@Arrowfar that is a great topic for the Latin room. You can have it there.

;-)

user208178

All right. Peace and good luck to everyone. See ya.

skill patrol

15:11

Later pal

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sounds interesting. I'll put it on my list.

@Arrowfar What skully said.

user208178

I understand. I'm good.

Kit Z. Fox

One thing I'm tremendously curious about is how much American 'literature' makes it overseas.

Matt E. Эллен

I guess quite a lot makes it to the UK

To Kill a Mocking Bird is taught in schools here, for example

Kit Z. Fox

We have so many books published all the time. I wonder how the volume and pub rate of English-language work compares to other markets. I know it's contentious in the scientific community that generally you have to publish in English or you won't get any ... audience? Impact factor?

Matt E. Эллен

15:26

both, probably

Kit Z. Fox

We cover Shakespeare and a bunch of old stuff in British Lit, which is junior year, I think.

But what about all the really interesting new stuff? I had my senior English teacher give me extra reading from African writers and it blew my mind.

That stuff isn't even covered in school.

Matt E. Эллен

If one wants it one can get it, but one has to be motivated. I don't know how much of the stuff that's advertised is American or British

I don't know what's new

Kit Z. Fox

I guess there's too much for a couple of years of high school. I feel that diversity of reading experience is way more powerful than half the crap that's required.

Matt E. Эллен

I'm reading "Ready Player One", which I assume is written by an American, and was published in 2011

Kit Z. Fox

Sounds familiar.

I'm reading "H is for Hawk" which is written by a Brit, I think, and published this year-ish.

And also "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" which was ... uh. Swedish, right? and not too old.

terdon

15:32

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And quite young too. I've got high hopes for that series.

Matt E. Эллен

But, the next two books in my queue aren't new, so...

@KitZ.Fox Yes.

Kit Z. Fox

It tries my patience. I want to like it, but the pace is interminable.

Matt E. Эллен

although, one's by a Canadian and the other's by an American

terdon

@KitZ.Fox Ah, do you like it? My sister loved it, I haven't read it yet.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox H is for Hawk, or the The Girl etc.

Kit Z. Fox

15:34

Both.

Matt E. Эллен

oh :D

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon A friend recommended it, and I can see why she did. It is memoir but in the non-crappy style. The writing style is different, raw feeling. The POV shifts like a series of thoughts.

I recognize grief in it and the seeking feeling.

terdon

There's a father-offspring relationship in there as well, right?

Kit Z. Fox

Yes. She's coping with her father's death.

Or trying.

terdon

Worth a read?

Kit Z. Fox

15:37

Have you lost a parent?

Do you enjoy challenging reading material?

tchrist

Kinda no thanks.

Kit Z. Fox

Hi @tchrist.

tchrist

Morning.

Kit Z. Fox

How are you feeling?

tchrist

Been worse.

Kit Z. Fox

15:40

Well, that's something.

terdon

@KitZ.Fox No.

@KitZ.Fox Sometimes. Not now though. I need more pleasant stuff now.

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon Then I'd recommend holding off until you're ready to dig in.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon have you read hpmor.com ?

it's pleasant :D

terdon

Cool, thanks!

Kit Z. Fox

Well. It's got some heavy parts.

Matt E. Эллен

15:42

true

Kit Z. Fox

But it's a great read!

Lots of humor.

Matt E. Эллен

especially towards the end

Kit Z. Fox

Thoughtful.

tchrist

I ran down the Locus and Nebula nominees this year and grabbed three of them: Fifth Season, The Grace of Kings, and Uprooted.

(I ignore the Hugos. Of course. :)

Kit Z. Fox

And for that, I thank you.

tchrist

15:45

Don't need the trash, don't need the pop, don't need the drama.

Matt E. Эллен

Hugo's answers are long, but I wouldn't call them books!

tchrist

I'm taking a work break, but the main site is too ug for relaxation.

Not to mention the meta wrinkles.

Kit Z. Fox

Is there more?

Matt E. Эллен

yeah... quite a bit of excitement on meta the last few weeks

Kit Z. Fox

It's certainly not the first time we've heard "you're doing it wrong".

And "chat sucks".

Matt E. Эллен

15:50

true. seems to happen all at once and then quieten down for a bit

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah. Per usual.

tchrist

I think it corresponds to certain members’ bipolar cycles.

Kit Z. Fox

I wonder if this means that it will be relatively quiet once we get to election time?

tchrist

If it were, the election would roil the waters anyway.

Kit Z. Fox

sighs wistfully

This is Matty's first time as a mod during an election.

Matt E. Эллен

15:51

woo!

I'm going to elect 'em all

Kit Z. Fox

You get to train them too.

Matt E. Эллен

do I get to keep them in a ball until I need them?

Kit Z. Fox

You can even invite them to the supersekrit mod room for the first time, if you want.

Matt E. Эллен

:-o

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен hahaha. no.

tchrist

15:52

@KitZ.Fox Not if we just reëlect all you guys!

Kit Z. Fox

@tchrist You are funneh.

Matt E. Эллен

modémon

tchrist

Balrogs are daemons.

Matt E. Эллен

Helpful, supernatural creatures!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен Another book that I wanted to like more than I did.

Matt E. Эллен

15:57

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah. it hasn't grabbed me yet. I'm only up to chapter 3, though

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен It's mainly a book of 80s references with a generic story. It has about as much plot as a prono.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…