English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

JSBᾶngs

01:35

@Ashen i assume you mean Chicago Manual of Style. yeah that is weird.

Kitḫ

02:24

-2

Q: Is *race* a synonym of *species* or is just a common mistake?

It's very common -- specially in fantasy and science-fiction -- to use race instead of species. For example: “In Middle Earth (...) Aragorn (race: men) (...) Bilbo (race: hobbit)” “Tarkin's motivation was the enslavement of the Wookiee race for use as manual (...)” “The human race has only one...

Really? I don't think so.

I voted to reopen it.

I don't think migrating it makes any sense at all.

Theta30

JSB posted it earlier

it's ok question for me, but he should give the reference of the quotations

Theta30

02:52

the only problem I see is that it is kind of broad

Cerberus

@Ashen I read Fowler recreationally sometimes. High five!

Hi people!

Theta30

he gives a quotation from Mark Twain which is not what he understand by fantasy and s.f.

Hi Fearful Mythical Beast

though Mark Twain wrote fantasy too...I meant the quotation is not about the fantasy

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:21

@Kitḫ I also voted to re-open

2

Q: Correlation vs Causation

Elsewhere on Stack Exchange I came across the following comment. The sorting is based on values, not family. If you value knowledge, you will be set to Ravenclaw, for example. Needless to say, if your parents value the acquisition of knowledge most and foremost, their children are likel...

differences

How is this on topic??!?!?!?!?

user19161

03:44

@MrShinyandNew安宇 He could be asking about the difference in meaning between the two words, but the question as it stands is not clear.

user19161

@Jez What's a shock site, a site to shock you?

Theta30

@WillHunting I suppose like those sites where if you open, you hear a scream and see a scary picture/animation

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Anyway I have voted as general reference, because correlation and causation have rather different meanings as can be looked up in a dictionary.

user19161

@Theta30 Yeah I thought so.

user19161

@MattЭллен Too fatty.

user19161

03:54

@MattЭллен Too fatty.

Cerberus

04:31

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Awww I'd just posted a long answer!

0

A: Correlation vs Causation

The short answer: yes, the relation suggested in that comment by Borror is causal. There can be several kinds of causal relations between phenomena A and B (though C may or may not be causally related): Direct causal relations: I ) A causes B (blowing up the earth causes the death of many...

Can't you pleeeese vote to reopen?

Theta30

04:42

@Cerberus I can't because I don't have rep :P

though I feel your pain

Cerberus

@Theta30 Awww thanks!

Answer more questions, and you will be the King of the universe!

Theta30

the thing is some "deep" questions are closed, while single-request-words pass undeterred

mostly undeterred

@Cerberus "You know, like - You do a thing and that's what you are. Like I've been a cabbie for thirteen years. Ten years at night. I still don't own my own cab. You know why? Because I don't want to. That must be what I want. To be on the night shift drivin' somebody else's cab. You understand?" (Wizard,Taxi driver)

Cerberus

05:17

@Theta30 Yeah, very true.

@Theta30 Heh, yes, I see.

Sometimes I feel that way too.

F'x

08:42

google ngram featured in xkcd today!

Though 100 years is longer than a lot of our resources.

2

Barrie England

11:39

Someone has down-voted three of my answers from a couple of months back. Each had 25 or so up votes. That looks malicious to me.

F'x

11:50

@BarrieEngland hello

@BarrieEngland if it happens on a large scale, it will be automatically cancelled; if it happens on a small scale, it won't matter much given your overall rep

user19161

@BarrieEngland All in the same day?

user19161

I can think of why people would want to downvote some people but not Barrie.

user19161

@Fx xkcd seems very popular on EL&U. It is always being talked about.

user19161

@Cerberus I would say that linguistically, correlation vs causation is a trivial question. Philosophically, it is nontrivial. But EL&U != Philosophy. QED.

Barrie England

12:35

@Will Hunting: Yes, all in one day, it seems. I'm curious rather than concerned.

Kitḫ

12:46

Holla.

@BarrieEngland That is rather curious. I don't think any of those answers is deserving of a downvote, and I rather like the word "victuals." I am fond of V-words, though. Did you vote to close someone's question recently or something?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Apr 12 '11 at 15:47, by RegDwight

No point in witch-hunting. It was fun, after all.

Kitḫ

3

Q: Correlation vs Causation

Elsewhere on Stack Exchange I came across the following comment. The sorting is based on values, not family. If you value knowledge, you will be set to Ravenclaw, for example. Needless to say, if your parents value the acquisition of knowledge most and foremost, their children are likel...

differences

I don't get how so many people can be wrong here.

> The fact the cause-and-effect isn't guaranteed doesn't change that.

Or that noöne pointed out how nonsensical this sentence is.

But maybe they did. I got tired of reading it all.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Eh. When am I supposed to read all those answers? Esp. @Cerberus'ae's wall of text.

Kitḫ

Yeah, I know, right?

Philosophers.

Not to mention that he is not really, exactly quite right.

But that's because he is being a philosopher and not a scientist.

And now I shall adopt the phrase "every jot and tittle" into my vocabulary.

Kitḫ

13:16

Bloody hell. That was a sucky showing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ what was

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh. Uh, nothing?

(My most recent series of battles on WMT.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ah

my work PC has started crashing. I'm getting a bit nervous.

Kitḫ

Uh oh!

Maybe you caught something from Cerb!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hm, maybe

I knew that boy was toxic!

Kitḫ

13:29

Intoxicating, more like it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dammit, I read my own starred comment about quantum glasses dirt and that made me think of my glasses and now all I can see is the dirt

Kitḫ

Payback is a bitch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

holy crap, Windows estimates 40 minutes remaining to copy my source code to a 2nd hard disk

Kitḫ

Weird.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah, it's just copying from one hdd to another

Kitḫ

13:30

What are you connected with? Jumper cables?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

chicken wire

Kitḫ

Oh. Is it aluminum or copper?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's the Monster SUPER-HD Gold-Plated Quandrophonic Extra-low-resonance chicken-wire

Kitḫ

Oh, see there's you problem right there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My homeopath and psychic both agree that Monster cables have more ram.

Kitḫ

13:32

hikes up pants and snorts

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 LR Chicken Wire? Dem's da good kind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Yeah, it's probably not the wire. What I need to get is a super-low-impedance gold-plated 3rd-party Chicken-wire connector for my motherboard

THAT is the source of my computer performance woes

Robusto

@BarrieEngland Welcome to Othello's Curse. As a high-rep contributor, you will encounter the Green-Eyed Monster from time to time. Nothing to be done about it, really.

Kitḫ

People like you are providing a service really.

High rep users are a kind of rage sink that absorbs the evil spirits and diffuses them harmlessly.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 One of the hallmarks of the true geek is that every one of his gadgets is just one component away from perfection. Always.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:36

@Robusto That's true. Like, my computer at home just needs a flash drive, then it will be perfect, except for its lack of a BDR, THEN it will be perfect, except for it needs dual monitors, THEN it will be perfect.........

Kitḫ

Mine needs a new graphics card.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And then the monitors need to be bigger, the BDR faster, the flash drive bigger ... MOAR!!! MOAR!!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So 7 minutes ago it said 40 minutes to complete. Now it says 12 minutes. I guess all this talk about how poorly it was doing shamed it into stepping up its game.

Kitḫ

Speaking of which, do either of you have a recommendation for a good video editing program? I want to make some DVDs of home movies for Gramma D.

Robusto

And once you do get the 30" monitors, well, what are you doing with last year's graphics card? I mean, come on!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:38

@Robusto yeah. I used to work in a computer shop, and we had a few customers who'd build their own computers, and then they'd buy stuff to fill up all the expansion slots, because otherwise they felt like it was wasted. They'd literally shop for stuff they don't need just to fill an ISA slot or 5 1/4" drive bay

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 We have all this talk of dog years. What really should be idiomized are progress-bar minutes.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Huhuh. He said ISA slot.

Kitḫ

• Kit added a school profile view and is working on other functionalities.
• Kit will finish the documentation.

^This is what I have to approve in our meeting minutes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto "I'll be there in 25 progress-bar minutes" 3 minutes later "I'm here! But where are you?" "I'll be there in 12 PBM" 3 hours later "Ok, I'm here too!"

@Robusto yeah it was in the 90s

Robusto

@Kitḫ It's the "other functionalities" that interest me.

Kitḫ

This is what I have to sit in a two-hour meeting for.

Robusto

13:41

@MrShinyandNew安宇 PBMs. There it is. The new standard. Brought to you by Microsoft.

Kitḫ

@Robusto See, the funny thing is that I actually say that. And she nods and makes a note. Then we move on.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Computers were kinda fun back then because they were so damn hard. Just putting one together was like doing a puzzle.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Remember bridges?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what kind of bridges? ethernet bridges?

Kitḫ

Northbridges?

Southbridges?

Robusto

13:42

@MrShinyandNew安宇 ISA bridges.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no, I don't remember isa bridges. Now I must go waste my day on wikipedia

Robusto

For computers that had PCI and ISA slots.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh wait, yeah,

I didn't know all the technology at the time, in those days systems with two kinds of slots were increasingly pnp

and so all I remember was the wide variety of chipsets that implemented bridges

Robusto

You know, it's the height of presumptuousness for anyone to call any technology Industry Standard Architecture.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and how people would upgrade their motherboards just to get a better chipset

Robusto

13:44

The serious geeks would rewire pin-outs with actual wire and solder.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do you remember EISA? I had a customer who wanted to put an EISA card into an ISA slot and asked us to cut off the extra pins

Robusto

Hahaha. ZOMG, but I do remember that. It's like medieval times.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yikes I remember stuff like this

That caption says it's EISA but it looks like 16-bit ISA to me

wow, there are still companies producing motherboards for modern processors that support ISA slots

Robusto

Say it ain't so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Industry Standard Architecture

Industry Standard Architecture (ISA) is a computer bus standard for IBM PC compatible computers introduced with the IBM Personal Computer to support its Intel 8088 microprocessor's 8-bit external data bus and extended to 16 bits for the IBM Personal Computer/AT's Intel 80286 processor. The ISA bus was further extended for use with 32-bit processors as Extended Industry Standard Architecture (EISA). For general desktop computer use it has been supplanted by later buses such as IBM Micro Channel, VESA Local Bus, Peripheral Component Interconnect and other successors. A derivative of the AT ...

Robusto

13:51

Remember when the 386 was a screamer? And then came the 486, and everyone was like, "It's OVER 9000!!!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah. Heck, I remember when I used to run most of my software with my XT's turbo function OFF, because it was too fast otherwise and the software's timing broke.

Oooh, VLB, forgot about you:

VESA Local Bus

The VESA Local Bus (usually abbreviated to VL-Bus or VLB) was mostly used in personal computers. VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association) Local Bus worked alongside the ISA bus; it acted as a high-speed conduit for memory-mapped I/O and DMA, while the ISA bus handled interrupts and port-mapped I/O. Historical overview In the early 1990s the I/O bandwidth of the ISA bus was becoming a critical bottleneck to PC graphics performance. The need for faster graphics was being driven by increasing adoption of Graphical User Interfaces in PC operating systems. While IBM's attempt at produ...

wow, I never knew just how much was wrong with VLB technology....

Oh, AGP, forgot about that one too. So many technologies have gone by the wayside.

JSBᾶngs

morning people

Kitḫ

Morning!

Robusto

And who could forget that horrible dragon known as the SCSI chain? Break it and you die!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

morning

Kitḫ

13:58

19 mins ago, by Kitḫ

Speaking of which, do either of you have a recommendation for a good video editing program? I want to make some DVDs of home movies for Gramma D.

Robusto

@Kitḫ Final Cut Pro is awesome. Oh wait, you don't have a Mac ...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Sorry, I didn't reply because I don't have a good recomendation

Kitḫ

@Robusto I have access to a Mac.

Robusto

41 secs ago, by Robusto

@Kitḫ Final Cut Pro is awesome. Oh wait, you don't have a Mac ...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If I were going to do some video editing I'd try Kdenlive on Linux, but I'm starting from scratch.

Robusto

13:59

In that case ...

If you just want to do home movies, though, I believe all modern Macs come with iDVD as well. Most likely good enough for what you need.

Kitḫ

How expensive is it? I can't seem to find pricing right away.

Robusto

If not, it's probably cheap. In the $80 area.

Yeah, it's part of iLife:

apple.com/ilife/idvd

Kitḫ

Do I retain rights to my movies and am I allowed to freely edit them? Or do I have to have everything approved by Apple first?

Robusto

@Kitḫ You are the artist. iDVD is only the tool.

Kitḫ

Well, I agree.

I'll look into it then. I have heard that Macs are better for video and photoediting.

Robusto

14:02

Totally.

JSBᾶngs

my children have been extremely annoying this morning

Kitḫ

I am sorry to hear it.

Robusto

That's what kids do.

Kitḫ

Are they being demanding?

My SSMS is being extremely annoying this morning.

JSBᾶngs

the older one, mostly. he refuses to sleep like a normal human being.

Kitḫ

14:05

Oh man. That always makes it tough.

Sleep deprivation all around.

JSBᾶngs

yeah, he wants to wake up before 6am, regardless of what time we put him to bed

last night he didn't go to sleep until 9

Kitḫ

Augh!

JSBᾶngs

so now he's cranky b/c he didn't sleep enough

Robusto

@Kitḫ Wait, you have a ship-to-ship missile system? Who are you firing on?

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Does he still nap during the day?

Robusto

14:06

@JSBᾶngs How old?

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ yes, for about 1-2 hours. he's 3 1/2

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Have you tried not having a nap?

I hate to even ask.

That solved the problem for us with my son though.

We just have quiet time while his brother naps. He still has a nap every once in a while, when he really needs it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ This is happening in my house with our 3 1/2-yo too. She doesn't always nap on weekends anymore, but sometimes she gets up super-early (I don't know what time, she doesn't wake us up)

Kitḫ

My oldest started having a real problem going to sleep. He was still pretty good about going to bed, but we'd go up at 10 and check on him and he'd still be awake.

So we cut out his nap, and he started falling asleep by 8.

He used to sleep until 7 or 7:30, but he's been getting up early lately, like 6 or 6:30.

So we might push his bedtime back a little.

He's been getting into the habit of waking up his brother. That needs to stop.

Robusto

As soon as my oldest son was out of the crib, nap time was over.

Kitḫ

14:13

Were you a stay-at-home dad?

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ we haven't tried that, but it's a thought

the problem is that my wife really likes the quiet time while the kids nap

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs It was a hard transition for us too.

JSBᾶngs

and he still likes his nap time.

Kitḫ

Maybe some books in bed?

Or crayons and paper at the table?

Robusto

@Kitḫ Not in the early years.

JSBᾶngs

14:16

@Kitḫ lately our schedule has been to put the little one down at 7 (he falls asleep right away), then keep the older one up until 8 doing quiet activities like reading or helping me wash dishes

he's generally very good during that last hour

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ That's what my daughter does when she's the only one who doesn't want to nap. Or, TV.

JSBᾶngs

but last night he didn't sleep well. woke us up at about 1 complaining he was hungry, then refused to actually eat anything. did the same at 5:15 am, but wouldn't go back to sleep after that

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. That's when my boy gets his Ratchet and Clank fix.

@JSBᾶngs Oh, yuck.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Here it's Dora.

Kitḫ

My son woke me up about midnight last night, crying. He was sitting up in bed, but wouldn't talk to me. I think he had a bad dream.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:18

@JSBᾶngs I would never give my kids food at 1am unless they were sick. I'd hand them a water bottle and tell them that they should have eaten more dinner. :)

Cerberus

@Kitḫ What!?

Hi!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus You're wrong. OK, there I said it.

Hi!

Cerberus

@Kitḫ How can this be?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Quantum hiccup?

Cerberus

@Kitḫ On which point exactly?

Kitḫ

14:24

Correlation may or may not be due to causation.

Cerberus

What definition of correlation?

Kitḫ

The co-relation definition of correlation.

Robusto

@Kitḫ That may or may not be true.

Kitḫ

The two things are related.

Cerberus

Related how?

Kitḫ

14:25

That is all that correlation means.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's actually what happened. he drank some water and went back to sleep

Kitḫ

Two things tend to happen in relation to each other.

Cerberus

What kind of relation?

Robusto

A. A violent order is a disorder; and
B. A great disorder is an order. These
Two things are one. (Pages of illustrations.)
— Wallace Stevens, "A Connoisseur of Chaos"

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Any kind of relation. That's the point.

Cerberus

14:26

(If you ask me, it all depends on which definitions you pick, as usual.)

Robusto

@Cerberus — See? It's not Vitaly who's argumentative. It's you.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ But is that the relevant kind correlation? Can you name a non-causal kind of relation involved in correlation?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Wait a minute. EVERYTHING depends on which definitions you pick, always, for every notion ever communicated.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus It doesn't. "Correlation does not equal causation" does not mean that "correlation cannot equal causation."

Cerberus

@Robusto Whoever claims I am not argumentative should be punched in the nose.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:28

@Cerberus sure

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ding!

Kitḫ

All that "correlation" means is that two things are co-related.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hey, I said argumentative, not pugnacious. Also, the idiom is "punched in the nose*. Sorry, but them's the facts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Two things can be correlated but one does not cause the other. Maybe they are both caused by some underlying thing.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I agree, at least in theory. So what other kinds of relations could correlation be about?

Kitḫ

14:29

@Cerberus Heroin use is correlated with smoking pot as a youth.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ehh so be it. Hey I just woke up, after only a few hours of sleep.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, black people being involved in crime. Being black might be positively correlated with being a criminal. However, one does not cause the other. It just happens that many black people are poor, and being poor does cause crime. (/oversimplifying)

Cerberus

@Kitḫ And how would you describe that relation, if it isn't causal?

Kitḫ

Smoking pot does not cause heroin use.

It's a correlation.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That is indirect causation: both phenomena are caused by a third phenomenon.

Robusto

14:30

@Kitḫ Well, correlation cannot equal causation. It can be evidence that there may be causation, but you have to find other factors.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus that's completely irrelevant

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Then how would you describe this relation?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I disagree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and, incorrect

Kitḫ

@Robusto Tru dat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

being black is not caused by being poor nor is being poor caused by being black.

Kitḫ

14:31

@Cerberus Yes, this is wrong.

Cerberus

@All: Again, it depends on your definitions.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus No, it doesn't.

Unless you just want to say that if you define it some certain way, then you will be right.

Which is not like the way anyone else ever defines it.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Why? The underlying cause could be that their ancestors grew up in Africa. This caused their being imported as slaves, which in turn caused their lower socio-economic position; and their growing up there also caused their skin to darken.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "Correlation does not imply causation" means that of the two things which are being discussed, the fact that they are found together does not mean that one causes the other.

Cerberus

Neither of you has named any kind of relation involved in correlation that is not directly or indirectly causal.

You've just given an example of something you don't consider causal, without giving it a name.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:35

@Cerberus you're using the word "causal" in a completely useless way here. Everything can be traced back to the big bang, therefore, everything is causally related to everything else.

Kitḫ

Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Correlation admits no discourse to causation.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 True.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus We've given it a name: correlation.

Two things having a tendency to co-occur.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't need to name something to know that it's not something else. For example, if I see a six-legged scaly creature, I don't have to name it before I can say "it's not a dog"

Kitḫ

With no comment on whether one causes the other or vice versa.

If one thing causes another thing, they are correlated.

If one thing happens at the same time as another thing, they are correlated.

Cerberus

14:38

Okay, so the point of the matter is that you say what I call indirect causation is no causation, I think.

Kitḫ

Um, yeah, pretty much.

Cerberus

Then, as I said, it is a matter of definition.

Kitḫ

Philosophers.

Argumentum ad definitions.

Cerberus

But I strongly feel that not calling indirect causation a type of causation is a bad idea.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's a matter of tracing events back far enough until you find a common event that links two things; in which case as I said you can just use the Big Bang and stop worrying about it.

@Cerberus No, I still think that's wrong

"A and B are correlated" does not mean "A indirectly causes B" or "B indirectly causes A". It might mean "A and B are both caused by some shared root cause". Or not.

Like, wearing clothes and driving a car. Studies show that almost every single driver wears clothes!

That doesn't mean one has anything to do with the other.

Cerberus

14:42

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, you could do that, and in that sense everything in the universe is ultimately causally related. How could it not be?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wait.

That's wrong. "A and B are causally related" does not equal "A causes B".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Your use of the phrase "causally related" here is semantically empty, then. It's useless and meaningless.

Kitḫ

Well, it could mean that "B causes A."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

brb

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In practice, it isn't: a certain degree of closeness is implied.

@Kitḫ Yes, for example.

Or A causes C, which in turn causes B.

Kitḫ

No. A and B are casually related means either A causes B or B causes A.

Cerberus

14:44

Why?

Robusto

This all smacks of casuistry.

Kitḫ

Because what the hell else would it mean?

Cerberus

Suppose C causes both B and A independently. It follows that 1. they are related somehow; 2. causation is involved in their relation.

So why not call it a type of (indirect) causal link?

Kitḫ

No. A and B are caused by C. A and B are correlated.

A does not cause B. B does not cause A.

Cerberus

And why are you using that criterion?

Kitḫ

14:47

Why are you using your criterion?

Mine is at least in alignment with the way scientists and statisticians use it.

Cerberus

Because, if you say "A and B are not at all causally related", the fact that causation is involved in their correlation is obscured, namely that they are both caused by C.

Kitḫ

No, it's not.

If I say "A and B are correlated," most people will assume that causation is involved somewhere. And a lot of people will mistakenly assume that A causes B or B causes A.

Cerberus

Then how do you explain why they are correlated? You need to use the causal link between C and B, and between C and A, to explain it. Causation is an essential part, somehow, in the correlation, however you call it.

Kitḫ

It is not at all the same thing as saying "A and B are not causally related."

Cerberus

How is that different from saying that it is wrong to say A and B are causally related?

Kitḫ

14:50

@Cerberus Not if you only care about describing A and B. Or if you only can speak to A and B.

Cerberus

But how can you not care?

Kitḫ

Because I am a scientist.

Cerberus

In the Humean sense, that causation is a human projection, and that only correlation should be considered?

Kitḫ

I rely on experiments and statistics to tell me about the world, and I don't make up long strings of untestable explanations just so I can have some root cause for a phenomenon.

Cerberus

Very good.

But that is an argument against causation in general. And I agree, to a point.

Kitḫ

14:53

Sure, you can reduce it to something absolutely meaningless in either direction. But that is an argument for philosophers, and I am not one.

Cerberus

Huh?

Kitḫ

Are parkinsonian symptoms correlated with dopamine depletion? Yes. Does dopamine depletion cause parkinsonian symptoms? I don't know, but if I remove dopamine from a healthy individual, I get parkinsonian symptoms. If I replace dopamine in parkinsonian patients, the symptoms disappear. Correlation is the only thing that matters to me here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You haven't yet shown that correlation implies a useful degree of indirect causation.

I surveyed a bunch of people and found that oxygen-breathing was highly-correlated with underwear-wearing.

(in industrial and post-industrial nations)

(among men and women, ages 18-75)

Cerberus

@Kitḫ And I couldn't agree more. But that is the next step; I was still on the plane of describing kinds of causation, faulty or useless though they might be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

(who were not incarcerated at the time)

Cerberus

14:58

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You're probably not applying Bayes' theorem? What are you trying to say?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think it can be useful to consider whether two phenomena may be caused by the same thing. If they are, it makes sense to filter that thing out of the data.

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