English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

21:00

Actually many converts to Islam don't read the Koran and instead read translations of the Koran, along with interpretations. (actually the translation is also an interpretation).

Kitḫ

Don't forget the hadith. Those are really important too.

MetaEd

@Kit When your avatar is shown really small it looks like the winged victory of Samothrace.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Well, they're of secondary importance.

Kitḫ

@MetaEd Thank you. blushes

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not that secondary.

Only a tiny bit secondary.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Well, I know a guy who converted to Islam without really studying the hadith.

Kitḫ

21:03

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. Well. looks judgmental

JSBᾶngs

arguably the hadith are more important to daily islamic practice than the Koran itself

Kitḫ

This is what I'm saying.

You need the Quran, naturally, but the real meat of Islam is in the hadith.

Ask a Shi'ite how important they are.

Then ask a Sunni.

There. I did it. I get a report of the Session variables, if they are accessible. Yay for getting one thing done today!

3 hours ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

our system sends all the HTTP headers, all the http variables, the ip address, some decoded cookie data, the data-layer command's name and parameters, the SQL that was being executed if it was an sql exception, and the stack trace

I don't think I need the IP.

The name of the sp and the parameter set would be really helpful though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, the reason I'd suggest people read the skpetic's annotated Koran is that it fairly clearly points out some of the most ridiculous rules of Islam; an examination of those rules lets me discard the entire book as worthless as a source of guidance or truth.

@Kitḫ The IP is useful if you're getting inexplicable errors, and you can narrow it down to a single user doing lots of things badly

Kitḫ

Same reason for disposing of any holy book, I should think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ pretty much

aedia λ

21:10

@Kitḫ Like, totally different hadith collections seen as reliable or unreliable across the traditions, right? I can't believe I forgot about the hadith until now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Let me tell you, reading the old testament was a huge eye-opener for me.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I get the user id already. I suppose it might be handy if they are saying they have errors at home but not at school.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i haven't read the skeptics koran, but i have read (parts of) the skeptic's bible, and i was not impressed.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Which reminds me. I forgot to sacrifice my pigeons this week.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ I guess your app isn't really public-facing?

Kitḫ

21:11

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not really. Lots of users, but all involved in this intervention program.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs did you feel that the annotations were wrong? blowing things out of proportion? misinterpreting things (possibly on purpose)?

@Kitḫ If you don't do that soon, your users will start injecting javascript into your database

Kitḫ

@aediaλ Well, yesish. The Shia reject Abu Bakr's (Muhammad's best bud) authority and see Ali as an imam rather than a caliph, so they put more weight on traditions that have a lineage to certain of the Transmitters and not others.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, it's just that I am unclean. Also, my husband is unclean for seven days. Also, everyone I have seen this week.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ hides

Kitḫ

Right. You should probably go make a burnt offering.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Hm, I burned some gasoline in my car this morning. I hereby offer all the exhaust to the gods.

Kitḫ

21:14

Hmm. Probably counts.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 mostly i felt like it was dishonest. it was not engaging with the text in an attempt to understand, but rather looking for anything that could be described as a loophole. a large majority of the annotated "problems" are trivially explained, if you would just take a few minutes to think about it.

aedia λ

@Kitḫ I, uh, I was just testing you. I knew that. cough

JSBᾶngs

ironically, it was my exposure to the skeptic's bible that made me reevaluate my youthful creationism, because i realized that the creationists treated evolution with the same shallowness and dishonesty that the skeptics treated the bible

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs I find those sorts of things annoying. Also, the other way around. And generally, just other people's annotations.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs I admit, many of the annotations are nitpicky, but honestly I expect something that was supposed to be divinely revealed or inspired to be more ..._correct_. But also, what about glaring problems, like all the violence and genocide ordered by God? But later on, people say "God is Love!" If that's not a contradiction, I don't know what is.

JSBᾶngs

21:16

@Kitḫ i'm afraid i don't understand what you mean here.

Kitḫ

@aediaλ I don't remember it very well. But the big ex- was a scholar of religion and Islam was his speciality.

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." ---Hitchens

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs I think you could shorten it to "I find annotated things annoying."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs The thing is, a skeptic doesn't need to treat the bible in any particular way, just like they don't need to treat "The God delusion" or any book in any particular way.

To a skeptic, religion has no standing because its foundations are invalid. It assumes its own arguments. It demands "faith" but "faith" is literally ridiculous to a skeptic. And since there is no evidence the only logical thing to do is discard religion.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i suspect that a lot of people, including a lot of christians, have a poor understanding of what "divinely inspired" is supposed to mean. for example, it doesn't have to mean "perfectly historically accurate".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:20

@JSBᾶngs Well, that's why I put "inspired" there, sure, the inspiration might be divine but the result might be shit. However: The Koran, and the book of Mormon, are reportedly verbatim transcriptions of what the divine REVEALED, so those two books in particular should be evaluated at face value.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you don't need to treat any book in any particular way. but if you want to claim that you understand X, you do yourself a disfavor by only reading a source concerned with debunking X. see arguments above re: learning evolution through creationist texts

@MrShinyandNew安宇 granted, at least for now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs But it's not the same thing. It's totally different when you read a creationist book compared to a creationist-annotated "Origin of the species". The original material is there, for you to make up your own mind about.

aedia λ

@Kitḫ Anything I do remember I credit to an amazing history teacher - oh god, in high school, that must be why everything's getting old and fuzzy now - guy with an absolutely passionate love for teaching. Crazy intense. I think he retired and went back practically right away to teach at an area community college.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Reading an annotated book is really like reading two books at once.

MetaEd

Right. The Koran is supposed to be a plain transcription of the words of an angel as delivered to the prophet. The Book of Mormon, the same. They're not merely divinely inspired. They are supposed to have been dictated.

JSBᾶngs

21:24

the Book of Mormon, however, was translated by Smith, and he can be blamed for the really bad KJV-esque english

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And when the Koran contains instructions that require a muslim to be misogynistic, for example, I figure I can just stop reading right there.

JSBᾶngs

or so i've been told by knowledgeable mormons

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs haha, ok... let's split the difference on that one: 50% inspired, 50% revealed.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 but that's begging the question. how do you know that egalitarianism is correct?

if you reject the koran because it violates your pre-existing ethical assumptions, that's kind of the opposite of skepticism

(note: don't try to construe this as me advocating misogyny)

aedia λ

But I like my preexisting ethical assumptions! They make me feel warm and fuzzy!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:27

@JSBᾶngs Because my morality doesn't descend from the arbitrary; I know it's wrong to treat women badly because I don't want them to treat me badly.

It's the golden rule.

JSBᾶngs

@aediaλ pink unicorns are exempt

@MrShinyandNew安宇 the golden rule could be wrong. pre-existing ethical assumption.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I need some kind of evidence that women are not deserving of reciprocal behaviour

It can't just be wrong because the koran states that it's wrong. the koran hasn't proved its authority.

JSBᾶngs

i don't actually disagree with you here, but it does illustrate the bind. you've framed the question so that egalitarianism is the null hypothesis and misogyny is what needs to be proven -- but merely putting the question in those terms is tipping the scales. based merely on historical, trans-cultural evidence, i could argue that male chauvisism is both more natural and superior

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs more natural? perhaps. superior? doubtful.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 what's your evidence?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

21:31

But evolution!

If it's more natural it is superior.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 that's not how evolution works

JSBᾶngs

also: misogyny is really hard to spell. i keep forgetting whether it has one y, or two, or three

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs I don't have hard evidence at hand, but I am pretty sure that western society has improved a lot as women became more equal in western society.

@JSBᾶngs agreed

Kitḫ

I don't know.

Depends on your opinion of "improved."

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 we have consensus! now let's go out for a beer.

@Kitḫ i was about to say that

aedia λ

21:33

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Even if the golden rule is right, it might only apply to people like yourself and not those others. How do you know who to apply the golden rule to?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 inferior traits die out. Superior traits prevail.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ humans

@RegDwightѬſ道 that's not an accurate description of evolution.

Kitḫ

Sometimes inferior traits persist.

And different traits promote healthy offspring in different ways.

Now I have to go.

Later, my peeps.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs yeah beer would be good. I'll wait until AFTER I drive home though. cya folks!

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew in any case, i offered historical evidence for chauvinism. all you've offered is sentimental appeals to an arbitrary "golden rule".

aedia λ

21:35

'Night, @Kit and @MrShiny!

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs The Smith "translation" was divinely dictated also, according to Smith. He used magic artifacts to read the foreign text. So it must be considered a divinely dictated text.

JSBᾶngs

g'night @Kit and @MrShinyandNew! rest assured that i don't actually think either of you is inferior :)

@MetaEd is that actually the official line? i don't really know.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

►

aedia λ

I was about to say, I think South Park taught me there were hats and golden plates or something like that

MetaEd

I speak from personal experience as the son of a Mormon convert who tried very hard to convert me. I could, of course, be getting some of it wrong.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

21:38

0

Q: What does the following phrase mean: "pursuing invariably the same Object"

Given the following sentence in the American Declaration of Independence: But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and...

history

I think the phrase "pursuing invariably the same Object" means just that, "pursuing invariably the same Object".

I sure hope he is not asking for legal interpretation.

MetaEd

Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)

In the Latter Day Saint movement, the Urim and Thummim (also called Interpreters) were a set of seer stones bound by silver bows into a set of spectacles, that founder Joseph Smith, Jr. said he found on the hill Cumorah with the golden plates. In 1823, Smith said that an angel Moroni told him of the existence, with the plates, of "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like "two smooth three-cornered diamonds."...

user19161

Oh earlier today Jon Skeet answered a question here and then deleted it, maybe a bit nutty.

user19161

@aediaλ It's too early to say goodnight. Not even dinner time!

MetaEd

Be nice to Skeet. They're endangered.

shamelesscommerce.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ZZ-SKEETST

user19161

@JSBᾶngs I keep forgetting what it means even.

MetaEd

21:49

@RegDwightѬſ道 I love giving advice on legal interpretation.

user19161

@MetaEd I think they approached me before, wearing white shirt and tie as usual and in pairs.

MetaEd

@WillHunting I'd be happy to have them visit. I could ask them if they've heard the good news about Epicurus.

user19161

@MetaEd The pair I talked to was weird. They even said we don't want to waste your time or our time. I'm not sure if that's what they're supposed to say.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:30

0

Q: Work-safe (but not too formal) salutation to start an e-mail to address a group of people

"Dear All" is what I see the most or "Hi guys", but I don't like these terms. They don't seem slick enough, to me. Anyone has other suggestions?

email salutation

Theta30

@RegDwightѬſ道 not constructive?

Isaac Moses

23:03

@Cerberus FTR, there is no "the international organization of orthodox Jews." We have no single globe-spanning hierarchy. It's kinda strange that Amsterdam's Jewish community appointed a "Chief Rabbi" who happens to reside in New York.

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