English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:40

fumbles with unidentifiable objects in corner

Mitch

03:16

@Cerberus shines light on objects

Gasp!

turns light off

Cerberus

@Mitch See?

Mitch

03:36

@Cerberus I was staring into the abyss once and noticed it staring at me, when I realized oh my god, maybe I was the abyss first.

And then the abyss shuddered.

Whatever.

Sami

06:44

This place seems more appropriate to ask/talk about something that has been at the back of my mind. There are two ways of using adjectives: I call them descriptive and categorical, but I want to know the exact terms that are used to talk about these two types of usage.

Example of first usage: "Wet water". I call this descriptive.

Example of second usage: "Pristine beaches". I call this categorical.

I became aware of this dichotomy when reading something of which I had no understanding, or context, and I had no idea whether the author was categorizing or describing an object.

Could you please give me a link where this is talked about?

Araucaria

12:34

@Færd I've bountied this question, in case you want to have a go at an answer. I noticed your comments on the deleted answer - which are spot on :)

12

Q: What do you mean that it's wrong?

What do you mean that it's wrong? In the above sentence, is the that-clause an adverbial clause? Or a complement? What is the syntactic function of the string "(that) it's wrong"? In other words, what are the grammatical relations in the sentence? Here are more real examples from COCA (wi...

Færd

12:58

@Araucaria Thanks. All I remerber I said was that the that in the title sentence is not like the that in Do you mean that it's wwrong and is to be explained! Will give it a try if I come up with an explanation!

BTW, Snail and some others had an interesting discussion over it on the light side, beginning with

in Language Overflow, yesterday, by snail plane

I thought that EL&U question was fairly straightforward.

Although I'm not sure if I agree with Snail's stand that "it's not grammatical".

Araucaria

13:15

@Færd Am going over right now to have a look ...

MετάEd

15:28

Morning.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd Hiya. Sorry your governor's a jerk.

Mine is too.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox Lieutenant Governor Patrick?

Kit Z. Fox

Oh. Yeah. Him.

user208178

Morning @MετάEd @KitZ.Fox

Kit Z. Fox

Morning @VitaminC.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:36

@KitZ.Fox Is it politics chat today? Cuz Trump. wooooooooooooo! what a douche.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh god no. I was just trying to relate to my friend.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh wait. Can I say that in this room?

"Trump"

Kit Z. Fox

Of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think we should start referring to douchebags as trumpbags

Kit Z. Fox

Our German-American presidential candidate.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:38

He did give me my morning laugh, though, but it was more like a slightly nervous, fearful, incredulous laugh.

I laughed when I read that he said that the reason there was a shooting at a gay club was because the current government is weak and ineffectual.

The irony is that the way I see it, the government HAS been ineffectual at combating gun violence through gun control... but of course that isn't what he meant.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox He's suffering a backlash from mixing religion and politics. Apparently he posts a bible verse every week.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd but does he also get ... what's the opposite of a backlash? frontlash? From people who support him in doing that?

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There's probably plenty of that in the replies to his tweet, but I didn't read any of that.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd Well, I figured that, but given the timing, it's pretty weak.

"Oops, I just happened to pick that verse for today when this horrible news came out several hours ago that I didn't know anything about."

user208178

where is Mitch these days? I haven't seen him around in chats.

Kit Z. Fox

15:44

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, I thought the same thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox I mean what he's trying to say is "See? stop any Muslims from coming in! Told ya so!" But this guy was born in the US... w'ev. Facts haven't been relevant for months, why let them intrude now?

Kit Z. Fox

Well, as a German-American, I'm sure he has some real experience with being an immigrant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> trump·er·y ˈtrəmp(ə)rē/

noun
1.attractive articles of little value or use.

adjective
1. showy but worthless.

Kit Z. Fox

Well, a second-generation immigrant. So, you know. Just because the guy was born in the US doesn't mean he's not, you know. Got immigrant experience.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Funny we locked up all the Japanese during WWII but didn't lock up all the Germans....

of course Trump is on record as being supportive of the Japanese internment.

Kit Z. Fox

15:52

I want people to say it more. Trump is the grandson of a German immigrant. He's less American by his own definition than many of the people he casts aspersions on.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Drumpf

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox I don't like having religious nuts in office. This sort of thing is just the tip of the iceberg. I worry about the things he does every day that we don't know about.

Kit Z. Fox

Like whatshisname who is afraid of calico cats because they are servants of the devil. He guy whose dad annointed him with cooking oil.

You know who I mean.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

why would calico cats be servants of the devil?

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox Vaguely familiar story. I'll have to look that up.

They're like train wrecks.

Kit Z. Fox

15:59

Ashcroft.

Took me a while, but I got there.

US Attorney General also famous for covering Lady Justice's naked stone breasts.

MετάEd

There's this: snopes.com/critters/gnus/calico.asp

I remember that coverup.

GOVERNMENT COVERUP!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol, the covering up of the statue is, in some ways, even more hilarious than the notion he might believe that a certain kind of cat is the servant of the devil.

Kit Z. Fox

I thought it was in his biography. Damn. That one was funny.

Kit Z. Fox

16:36

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "If everyone at the club had been armed, then no one would have been killed" seems to be the gun nut logic.

Matt E. Эллен

"logic"

Cerberus

@MετάEd Are you sure that isn't satire?

Off topic: do you know Alaa Wardi?

user208178

Hello @Cerberus. How is life in the Dutchland?

Cerberus

He makes music where all the "instruments" are sounds he has made with his own body.

Hi!

I'm listing to Wardi's "Evolution of Arab Music", greatest video ever.

Evolution of Arabic Music | تطور الموسيقى العربية

►

Now I want to listen to all of those 42 songs.

How are you doing?

user208178

Nice. First time I heard of him.

user208178

16:43

@Cerberus I'm doing okay.

Cerberus

Good.

His instrument-less cover of Jai Ho is also great:

Jai Ho - Slumdog Millionaire (Cover by Alaa Wardi & Peter Hollens)

►

In an Indian language that neither singer speaks.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox swats calico cat off lap

Yowza, cheese and rice, those claws are sharp.

@VitaminC I was here all along. Watching over you. Petting my calico cat. The wrong way.

Woo hoo hoo that stings!

Cerberus

Is that legal?

Mitch

The judge comes from Calica so I'd guess not.

user208178

@Mitch Heh. Hi :)

Mitch

16:50

@KitZ.Fox I'm even more upset at the graphs of locations and times of shootings in the US just this year. This one made the news because it's revoltingly high, but the high number of lower toll killings makes me want to crawl up in a corner.

@VitaminC Dang it..are you INA?

Cerberus

nods

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I know. When will it end?

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox that's so ominous, because it probably won't.

Kit Z. Fox

But I still have faith that we are progressing as a species.

user208178

@Mitch Immigration and Nationality Act? No.

Cerberus

16:52

They say Paris is "Israelising", where they go through your bag before you enter any larger shop or concert hall or other public building.

Mitch

@VitaminC Oh you.

Kit Z. Fox

Things are better now than they were 50 years ago.

Cerberus

But the checks at the entrance of the airport of Brussels have been lifted.

Mitch

@VitaminC I don't remember either your tag or your icon. Has it always been the same or have you changed it?

Cerberus

I think many mosques and Jewish temples already have policemen guarding them here.

Mitch

16:54

@Cerberus haven't they traditionally been higher security than the rest of Europe (longer history of bombings back to the .... is it 80's)? But yeah that's gotta be depressing going to a movie with your school backpack and being searched.

Cerberus

That is quite possible, but this is new.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox many. most. but public shootings no

Cerberus

France or Paris is still officially in a "state of emergency", and those checks are new.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Think of it as a compliment, that she's hot.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Yes. I think it's a result of rich white men trying to maintain their power.

user208178

16:56

@Mitch It has always been this but I'm not new.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Right. It's not OK for a man to tell a woman how to dress or to body-shame her.

user208178

I'm keeping it a secret. I mean my location and identity.

Cerberus

@Mitch Are you sure? The IRA in Ireland/England, and the ETA in Spain were particularly violent terrorists in the eighties/nineties.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think racism is a kind of red herring, that the real reason is people who look different. Germans are northern european looking. so it'd be difficult to separate them out. Also, way too many and way too integrated.

@KitZ.Fox ??? more public shootings are a promulgation of the patriarchy? and other progress is them wimping out?

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Progress is the reduction of white man's stranglehold.

Mitch

16:58

@VitaminC 42 days is new

@VitaminC that's cool. I'm just trying to get context here.

user208178

@Mitch well I deleted the last account.

Cerberus

1972:

> 14 April - the Provisional IRA detonated 24 bombs in towns and cities across Northern Ireland. There was also 14 shootouts between the IRA and security forces.
21 July - Bloody Friday - within the space of 75 minutes, the Provisional IRA detonated 22 bombs in Belfast. Nine people were killed (including two British soldiers and one Ulster Defence Association member) while 130 were injured.[5]

Mitch

@Cerberus hm...I was mostly unconscious in those decades. wait IRA was seventies. I think the British surveillance trend (cameras everywhere) had something to do with them.

Kit Z. Fox

And that was a lot of bombs, not a lot of shootings.

Cerberus

List of bombings during the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process

This is a list of notable bombings related to the Northern Ireland "Troubles" and their aftermath. It includes bombings that took place in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain since 1969. There were at least 10,000 bomb attacks during the conflict (1969–1998). == 1969 == 30 March - the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV) bombed an electricity station at Castlereagh, resulting in blackouts. A further five bombs were exploded at electricity stations and water pipelines throughout April. This was part of a loyalist plot to frame the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and bring an end...

Mitch

17:01

@KitZ.Fox Hollandaise is a reduction of onions and butter and egg yolks.

Shafizadeh

Which one is correct?
- PDA (public display of affection) limitation
- limitation PDA (public display of affection)

Mitch

...So that's why the Dutch capitulate to the high heeled classes?

@Shafizadeh depends on what you want correct to mean.

Shafizadeh

@Mitch which one can be as name of a book?

Mitch

@VitaminC What was the previous account then? or name? or icon?

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I thought it had mayonnaise -- oh wait. That is mayo, innit?

Mitch

17:02

@Shafizadeh I'd say neither for different reasons.

user208178

@Mitch hehe that I will never tell.

Cerberus

> Limiting PDA

> The limits of PDA

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox I don't know. Maybe? I'm just screwing around.

Kit Z. Fox

PDA limitations.

Shafizadeh

Ah thx guys

Cerberus

17:03

@VitaminC I think most people have an idea!

user208178

@Cerberus Who?

Cerberus

I haven't looked at your IP or anything.

Just the way you chat and all.

user208178

Hey, leave my IP alone!

user208178

heh

Cerberus

I have left it alone.

Mitch

17:04

@VitaminC Well, you communicate with us quite familiarly, and I am OK with that but it brings up the question of why you feel comfortable communicating so familiarly. I am hesitant to return it without knowing provenance.

user208178

@Cerberus Thanks.

Kit Z. Fox

Limitations on PDA

Cerberus

It is customary here for people who delete their accounts to return.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't. THa'ts my difficulty.

Cerberus

Then you two have a fun game ahead of you!

Mitch

17:05

I have other difficulties, like this goddam calico cat. But's another cake to bake.

Cerberus

mew

Mitch

@Cerberus Games!

Shafizadeh

@KitZ.Fox "Limitations on PDA" or "PDA limitations" ?

Kit Z. Fox

@Shafizadeh Either one.

Shafizadeh

ah ok :)

Cerberus

17:06

Wow, Alaa Wardi can sing in Hindi, with a Subcontinental accent.

Nanga Punga Dost "PK" (Cover by Alaa Wardi)

►

MετάEd

@Cerberus What do you think is satire? The Snopes article? Or the Andrew Tobias article?

Mitch

Life of Brian is satire

or is it parody?

Wait, that's not your real question is it?

Cerberus

@MετάEd I glanced at a text about some ambassador in the Hague who covered up statues and was afraid of cats.

Mitch

I couldn't blame him for covering up statues of cats. Their eyes follow you everywhere.

Cerberus

I know Mitch is always dead serious.

@Mitch Somewhere in between?

Mitch

17:10

If it involves cats, yes

@Cerberus That's fair.

Cerberus

Satire is basically a critical parody of society?

Mitch

@Cerberus Right. Aristotle worked that all out years ago.

But what has he done lately?

Cerberus

I have only seen parts of the film.

Mitch

Pfft...human progress

@Cerberus There's a movie?

Cerberus

@Mitch Lie in earth?

Mitch

17:12

about Aristotle?

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, sorry, I meant Life of Brian, the opera.

Mitch

Oh.

It's an opera?

Cerberus

I don't know.

Mitch

Opera buffo

Cerberus

If it isn't a film, I don't know what it is.

Mitch

17:12

I guess there's at least one song

One moment... you mentioned calico cat... so lunch time.

Cerberus

Yay.

@VitaminC Here he actually looks a bit like you:

Nancy Ajram - Fi Hagat (Cover By Alaa Wardi)

►

Sorry for the spamming.

He goes all the way from bass to soprano!

Mitch

You know how there's fifty ways to skin a cat? Ugh, don't try them all at once.

user208178

@Cerberus What? You are comparing me to some neckbeard guy? Seriously?

user208178

HELP! Cerbs is bullying me. I feel oppressed.

user208178

j/k

Mitch

17:23

I always asociate 'oppressed' with that guy from The Crucible who they were interrogating asking about witches and he wouldn't say anything and so to convince him to talk, they put stones on his chest. Until he died. Chest. Pressed. Oppressed.

user208178

Mitch

But maybe he was just a quiet guy

I also associate Unicode with unibrow. Just because I can

user208178

well anyway I gotta go. Laters.

Mitch

have fun. don't stay up too late staring at cat statues.

Cerberus

@VitaminC I did not mean every little detail.

But he looks good.

Bye!

user208178

17:26

@Cerberus Well, I'm not ugly that's for sure. I'm about 6'2'' ripped and all, I'm rich as fuck and I have a smoking hot ~~girlfriend~~ wifey.

user208178

Bye!

Kit Z. Fox

Well, that's vaguely accurate.

MετάEd

18:29

@Mitch Not to mention Unilever. And Löwenbrau.

MετάEd

18:48

Löwenbräu.

That didn't look right. Not enough dots.

Mitch

Löwenlever

to help pick up really big lions

MετάEd

Löwenlewer?

Mitch

No, lower.

Færd

> Looking at him, you'd never dream he was a millionaire.

Is there anything wrong or unusual about this sentence? I think it should be To look at him, ...

Mitch

@Færd depends on who you're talking about. Alan Greenspan, am I right!!

Færd

18:53

@Mitch Am I the addressee?

Mitch

@Færd Yes

Færd

Okay, I don't know Alan Greenspan!

Mitch

anyway, i'm just messing around.

Færd

I know.

Mitch

that sentence sounds fine to me

'to look at him' sounds fine also, a little more formal.

Færd

18:54

So, To look at him isn't any better?

Huh.

Thanks.

TIPS

Hanks

Færd

I thought looking at him works for real situations.

Hangs.

Mitch

'To look at him' for unreal situations?

TIPS

Fangs.

Færd

@Mitch Kind of. If you'd seen him you wouldn't have thought he was a millionaire.

Mitch

18:56

@TIPS you should change your icon to theobromine

which is neither theo nor bromine

TIPS

@Mitch YES MASTER

Mitch

@Færd that also works fine.

@TIPS Wow. It worked.

Make me a pastrami sandwich.

TIPS

No, I'm not imitating a duck.

Færd

@Mitch I know. Just wasn't sure that this use of the gerund works for unreal situations, like the to-infinitive does.

TIPS

Makes some sandrami pastwich

Mitch

18:58

wait...sudo make me a pastrami sandwich... on rye!

Færd

Anyway. Thank you @Mitch.

Mitch

@Færd you mean like a subjunctive idea?

Færd

And Fang you @TIPS.

TIPS

Lang

Færd

@Mitch Maybe.

But I'll away now.

Mitch

19:00

A probabilistic subjunctive...hmm... add that to Latin!

Færd

See ya.

Mitch

later

TIPS

ratel

Saladin

19:26

hello

anyone home?

Kit Z. Fox

Hi.

TIPS

@Saladin I'm a guest here, but yes

@KitZ.Fox \o

Saladin

Can you proof-read this line "We believe the market is just ripe for entrance of ABC technology and MARS in partnership with Jupiter wants to be early-grabbers for this new market.
"

Kit Z. Fox

Um.

TIPS

"the entrance", for a start

Also you need at least a couple of commas there.

Kit Z. Fox

19:30

We believe the market is ripe for the entrance of ABC technology, and ...

uh. that last bit is tough for flowmanship.

Saladin

@KitZ.Fox you mean its edgy?

Kit Z. Fox

a MARS-Jupiter partnership is poised to be early-grabbers for this new market.

@Saladin No, it doesn't flow well.

early-grabbers is odd too.

TIPS

@KitZ.Fox Mayhaps it's "MARS, in partnership with Jupiter, wants to be the early grabbers for this new market."

Saladin

I know I had the same feeling.

Kit Z. Fox

Usually "early-adopters".

a MARS-Jupiter partnership is poised to adopt this new market early.

Saladin

19:32

I agree.

Kit Z. Fox

Hmm. None of that sounds good.

TIPS

Adopt?

@Saladin what did you want to mean with "grab"?

Saladin

I think its something like "first-catch"

or first movers

something along those lines.

We believe the market is just ripe for entrance of ABC technology, and Inbox in partnership with Imperva would want to be leading player for this emerging market.

better now?

TIPS

@Saladin You seem to have a certain problem with "the".

the entrance

Saladin

Aha.

TIPS

19:35

Also the commas:  . . . Inbox, in partnership with Imperva,  . . .

Saladin

Got it.

what about the flow now?

TIPS

. . . would want to be the leading players for this emerging market.

@Saladin Still sticks in the throat a bit, but it's much better.

Saladin

mmmmm

TIPS

@Saladin I'll have whatever you're having.

Saladin

hahah

We believe the market is just ripe for the entrance of ABC technology, and in partnership with MARS, Jupiter hopes to be leading player for this emerging market.

Kit Z. Fox

19:40

The "just" feels wrong to me, otherwise that's much better.

Saladin

@kt

Kit Z. Fox

I feel like you're getting at "bleeding edge" and it's too cliché.

Saladin

@KitZ.Fox wrong and much better . Like oxymoron

Kit Z. Fox

Haha, no I meant, just drop the "just" and the rest is a big thumbs up.

Saladin

Suppose I'm writing this to Jupiter does it gives cliche feeling?

Kit Z. Fox

19:41

Are you trying to convince Jupiter to form a partnership with Mars?

Saladin

@KitZ.Fox thanks:)

Kit Z. Fox

Because in that case, I'd state it stronger: The market is ripe for the entrance of ABC technology, and in partnership with MARS, Jupiter will be the leading player for this emerging market.

Saladin

yes exactly and this is one line of sentence for persuasion.

Kit Z. Fox

No aspirations when you are selling. Say it like it is a fact.

It's very convincing that way.

See? I just did it.

Saladin

I like your last revision.

hahah

i like the use of 'will be' very timely use:)

anyhow @KitZ.Fox how has been your day?

TIPS

19:45

@KitZ.Fox Esp. on the interwebz

Kit Z. Fox

@Saladin Good. I'm about ready to quit for the day and go play with my family.

Saladin

@KitZ.Fox aha how far is your home from your office place?

Kit Z. Fox

Today it is in the same place.

Saladin

aha

your kids are <18?

Kit Z. Fox

Yes, they are 8 and almost 6.

TIPS

19:49

86 is more than 18.

Saladin

hahaahah

@KitZ.Fox you are good mom I'm sure what the best thing you can cook for them?

Kit Z. Fox

I'm not sure.

TIPS

@Saladin Kits like chicken meat I suppose.

Saladin

You don't let them junk food too much?

Kit Z. Fox

They are not adventurous eaters.

Saladin

19:51

No kids these days eat just plastic.

Kit Z. Fox

Not too much, but they get a lot of pre-packaged stuff for school lunch.

Good stuff for breakfast and dinner.

Saladin

@KitZ.Fox what are your views on Orlando attack?

Kit Z. Fox

@Saladin What view? I don't know what you are asking.

Saladin

orlando shooting??

Kit Z. Fox

You're asking me for an opinion. I don't understand what you want me to opine on.

Saladin

19:56

As a human. As a mom. As a woman.

You don't need to think a lot to comment on such a Incident?

Kit Z. Fox

What about it? What's my opinion of a mass shooting? Of a gay Latino club? Of the news coverage? Of the shooter's strategy and choice of weapon? Of the police's countermeasures? Which opinion do you want?

Saladin

general opinion.

Kit Z. Fox

It's a tragedy.

Saladin

and you are reserved about your feelings?

Kit Z. Fox

There isn't anything I can do about it.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…