English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

curiousdannii

00:11

@KitZ.Fox Yeah of course, I didn't expect it to last as long as it did! Looks like the whole question is gone now.

Færd

03:01

nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/13/upshot/…

sumelic

07:42

@Færd: Heh. I guessed 0 and lost, but got complimented for showing a "beautiful mind."

@Færd: Interesting to note that a noticeable amount of people chose 100.

Færd

10:00

@sumelic That could mean that you're fairly smart, but you tend to overestimate others' intelligence and understanding.

@sumelic See what I mean? :)

Anuj Kaithwas

10:48

Hello everyone!

how is it going

?

so I was discussing with a friend of mine about a meeting on coming friday and I said, "see you on the evening".

Was it wrong?

Cerberus

12:04

@AnujKaithwas Yes: it should be in the evening.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:32

@Cerberus Morning

MετάEd

13:21

@AnujKaithwas One common idiom is "see you tonight".

Jhkew

15:27

I was wondering if this is an example of correctio: Ariel (The Tempest), ‘The powers, delaying, not forgetting’. I think it might be but I was hoping for some confirmation from someone more knowledgeable

MετάEd

@Jhkew It's not correctio. What makes you think it is?

Mitch

16:07

@Jhkew I had never heard of 'correctio' before. Probably because it is not the word used for the figure of speech in English. The term used is epanothorsis (which I also had not heard of). But no it seems your example is not one of self-correction (my informal version in English). It doesn't look like anything is being substituted with a better version. 'not forgetting' is not a fixup of 'delaying'.

SmokeDetector

16:24

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: "Manifest" vs. "manifested" by ugyuy on english.stackexchange.com …

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, evening.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah, well, if you wait long enough

Mitch

@Cerberus "Actually, I've always sort of preferred noon"

Cerberus

Hah.

I prefer cheese.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:39

@Mitch Peanuts. Never ever funny.

Kit Z. Fox

It's a rule.

Peanuts != funny.

Mitch

@Cerberus Every year at regular physical exam they ask questions, new ones every time. They always ask how often you drink alcohol, how often you smoke (packs per day). One time they asked if I had a gun in my home (kinda weird but yes it is a population health issue, like seat belts (wait...they never asked about seat belts)). But..and this is the point of all this...last year they asked me how often I eat cheese a day.

WTF. How does one live and not eat cheese.

Kit Z. Fox

My abusive ex hated cheese.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it's an acquired lack of taste

@KitZ.Fox Now that's a taste you can disputandum about

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You have to read them like they're supposed to be funny, and then they are. Just not laughing funny. Or even chuckle funny. Sort of 'New Yorker' funny. "Oh. I get it. Hm. I think. But not really"

Cerberus

17:00

@Mitch Yay!

So you have a regular physical exam?

Does everyone have that?

MετάEd

17:19

@Mitch Ask a cow.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd And there's today's writing topic.

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox "Be careful, little tongue, what you say."

Or perhaps it should be little hands, what you type.

Mitch

@MετάEd Ask a calf

@Cerberus Yes.

@Cerberus By the existence of that question, I'm guessing you don't?

I always thought you're supposed to/US insurance almost universally covers it.

Cerberus

Nope.

Mitch

But I've heard there have been studies (in the US) that say they are a waste of tie/money/resources (your time and the drs time). In a pure cost benefit analysis

Cerberus

17:34

Only people who are at a certain specific risk have regular exams.

Like breast cancer, although the usefulness of that is contested.

> Britain's spooks have, for years, been using section 94 of the 1984 Telecommunications Act to intercept bulk communications data of people in the UK:

MετάEd

@Mitch You are saying calves eat cheese?

Mitch

at certain ages, certain screening is recommended, but the yearly exam is supposed to be way too much 'screening' on very minor things.

Cerberus

1984, Funny. ^

How long does this screening take?

Mitch

@Cerberus yes, things like that, are recommended (but the specific also depend on cost/benefit. oh and risk too.)

Cerberus

Here it's for women over 50, I think.

The tests result in lots of (initial) false positives, which cause a ton of stress.

Mitch

17:37

@Cerberus depends on what is being done. blood tests take 5 minutes out of the exam to do. BP, pulse, 2 minutes (and the doc doesn't do those, a nurse can at much less cost).

@Cerberus yes. but FNs are arguably worse.

Cerberus

How much time every year total?

@Mitch I haven't heard those mentioned.

Mitch

@Cerberus just a boring drs visit once a year should be at most an hour. 15 minutes if nothing to complain about.

Cerberus

FNs have a good side-effect: less stress.

Mitch

@MετάEd well, milk products.

Cerberus

Hmm an hour is quite long.

That would double the average time people spend visiting their GP, I think?

Expensive.

Mitch

17:39

@Cerberus that was traditional, nowadays 15 minutes is what is scheduled

@Cerberus but then you have the disease and die horribly

@Cerberus maybe I'm exaggerating.

Cerberus

Hmm.

@Mitch Not a side-effect.

If you don't take the test, you'll die horribly too, if you have it.

Woohoo, I got to delete my first chat line!

Mitch

@Cerberus ??

Just...??

Cerberus

@Mitch It's not a side-effect: it is an effect.

@Mitch I got a flag from someone who wanted his own chat line deleted.

Mitch

@Cerberus FN or FP, you're not talking about side effects just the main problem.

Cerberus

I don't think so?

Mitch

17:45

@Cerberus I'd ask which chat line, but, then, it was deleted.

Cerberus

It was something about wanting to post a comment calling someone a moron.

Uninteresting.

Mitch

True positive- positive test and patient has the disease (so treatment should help things).
True negative- test is negative and really doesn't have the disease (don't treat, nothing happens).
False positive - test is positive but patient does not have the disease treat for disease but useless costly surgery or meds
False negative - test is negative, but has the disease, no treatment but patient still in pain and possibly dies

With a FP (not an FN) you might have side effects from an unneeded treatment.

Cerberus

I meant side-effect in a broader sense, like the stress I mentioned.

Not the strict, medicinal sense.

Mitch

Oh. sure, effect of stress sure comes into the equation. you'd have that stress also if it were a true positive. But usually the stress is considered much much less a health risk than the actual problem. The usual mitigation to stress is to be equivocal about test results that have a high false positive rate, i.e. say 'this isn't a definitive diagnosis, we just have to do further more specific tests to confirm' (or something better)

Cerberus

18:03

That helps to some degree.

But if you have 100.000 false positives to 100 true positives, it becomes something to take into account.

Færd

Is Thanks any less formal than Thank you?

Mitch

@Cerberus Yes, there is a big recognized problem with such too sensitive tests. same with PSA, same with cholesterol (though statins aren't (mostly) that bad)

just plain overprescribing of antibiotics and painkillers to treat problems that aren't there is a big problem (for very different practical reasons)

@Færd yes, 'thanks' is less formal.

'Thanks, your majesty for the extra ketchup'

Cerberus

@Mitch I think this problem only exists in some countries.

Doctors are reluctant to prescribe antibiotics here.

Mitch

@Cerberus both are a big deal in the US. I don't know much about Europe. I'm pretty sure india does not have a problem with overprescription.

Cerberus

And I've never heard of a problem with painkillers here.

America has an extremely capitalist system of healthcare.

Mitch

18:11

how about mammograms or PSA (prostate somethety something)?

Cerberus

I don't think there are many similar countries, if any.

Mitch

@Cerberus exceptional in so many ways

infant mortality rate

Cerberus

Mammograms are part of the test for breast cancer?

Mitch

yes

Cerberus

So I think we have covered those?

In Holland, many women want to give birth at home, which I think is stupid.

Mitch

18:12

Please covr them, this is a family site.

Cerberus

Cover everything in soot.

Færd

@Mitch Waht if you're talking too your professor, or boss? Could it be impolite to say thanks?

Mitch

@Cerberus stats show higher relative infant mortality, but it's still overall very safe.

I'd prefer a hospital just in case.

Cerberus

@Mitch Probably. But still.

Færd

Hospitals can be depressing for some people.

Mitch

18:15

@Færd Right, formality is a continuum, not a yes/no. it depends on the situation. I think we're in the vague center where I think 'thanks' would be fine written or spoken to a prof or boss. But maybe others think differently.

Færd

@Mitch Thanks!

Mitch

@Færd the only time you come out happy is with a birth.

Cerberus

Please accept my thanks.

Mitch

@Cerberus No, no thanks necessary, I'm just doing what anybody else would do.

Cerberus

Chatting?

Færd

18:17

@Mitch It's because of the baby. The hospital in and of itself still could have its depressing effect.

I'm not advocating the give birth at home movement though.

Cerberus

I read an article suggesting that antibiotics are bad for your intestinal ecosystem (they kill your useful gut bacteria), and that this may cause various afflictions.

Mitch

wel, actually on second thought, many times leaving the hospital feels better then going in.

not always

@Færd Oh. I get it

Cerberus

@Færd Yes, but on the other hand the knowledge that you're safe and that doctors are nearby might make you feel more comfortable.

Mitch

It's, by definition, clinical

haha. I amphibolized you

@Cerberus It's complicated.

I've always wondered how they got there. the the acid cesspool of the stomach kills pretty much everything.

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah. Maybe some people have (unreasonable) phobia about hospitals?

Once a doctor told me that while I was on (particular?) antibiotics I should consume foods that are rich in vitamin B.

Because it kills the bacteria in the (large?) intestine that produce it.

Cerberus

18:24

@Mitch Perhaps the acid doesn't kill everything. Or the bacteria and fungi come retrorsum.

@Færd Hmm I wouldn't know.

I do know that taking vitamin pills if often not aequivalent to eating ordinary food that contains those vitamins.

Færd

It was just a quotation. I don't know either.

Cerberus

They're often not processed the same way in your body.

I don't know.

Færd

@Cerberus I've heard that too. And IIRC there was a paper or an article (I hope I can find it) that associated taking vitamin pills regularly with a higher chance of cancer!

Cerberus

Hmm.

Much higher?

Færd

I'm looking it up.

Cerberus

18:29

I have read that most vitamins in high concentrations are simply ignored by the intestines and passed on.

Mitch

@Cerberus eww...

Færd

@Cerberus Google vitamin supplements and cancer risk. There seem to be many relevant results. I have a slow connection right now.

Cerberus

@Mitch We're all gross animals.

@Færd Ehh perhaps some other time.

Færd

The ends of an intestine are not the only ways for bacteria to enter it.

Cerberus

Then whence else do they come?

If the intestines are not perforated?

Færd

18:34

The blood.

I mean it's possible.

Cerberus

But that should only happen when something is wrong, right?

Blood should be 'sterile'?

Færd

I don't know. A more probable theory is that those bacteria exist in your belly when you are born.

And of course the acid in the stomach doesn't kill everything. Many people have stomach infection.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are two kinds of vitamins. Water soluble and fat soluble. The water-soluble ones get excreted in urine. The fat soluble ones build up in your body and are stored for later. In the former case, vitamin supplements waste money. In the latter case they can cause problems from overdose.

Færd

Okay, I better stop talking about something I hardly know anything about.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd yes, like an ulcer, it's caused by bacteria

stomach acid isn't strong enough nor thorough enough to kill all bacteria.

Færd

18:39

Mhm.

Cerberus

@Færd From what I've heard, one receives many beneficial bacteria from one's mother upon birth.

Færd

Good old mothers.

Cerberus

Which is why caesarian sections may affect a baby's intestinal 'flora'.

Færd

Ah, good to know.

Cerberus

@Færd Perhaps stomach infections happen when the acid hasn't had enough time to kill the bactia in a large chunk of food, but that this chunk is not normally passed on to the intestines from the stomach until it has been completely acidified, and the bacteria killed, by the stomach acid?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh OK, good to know.

Færd

18:44

@Cerberus Suppose you drink a large amount of water. Your stomach passes that water without feeling the need to acidify it, and it can carry bacteria with it.

Cerberus

Probably true...

Maybe it keeps chunks in the stomach?

Færd

Dunno.

@Cerberus One can do an experiment and swallow undigestable materials with different sizes, then wait and see which ones come out eventually.

But one is advised not to carry out this experiment at home.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I know several different people who have swallowed things such as nails, marbles, etc.

Færd

Ooof

Cerberus

Perhaps there is a threshold: after a while, everything is passed on, but normally digestible chunks are kept until fully acidified.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:51

undigestible things just pass through assuming they don't get stuck.

Cerberus

Speculating, of course.

Færd

@Cerberus How can the stomach know if something is thoroughly acidified? The inside of a little grain or something is not observable or examinable for the stomach. And I recon a little grain can eventually find its way out of the stomach, carrying bacteria and stuff inside.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh right. H. pylori, can withstand the pH.

Cerberus

@Færd Yes, so it must keep chunks in the stomach for a fixed duration.

One that normally guarantees acidification.

Færd

There's no solid guarantee, i think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:57

@Mitch yeah salmonella too, and others. The stomach acid kills some of the bacteria but not all kinds and not all of it.

Cerberus

@Færd Most probably not.

Færd

And those who have stomach infection have the bacteria inside their stomach for a sufficiently long time, and they survive the environment.

Cerberus

But I imagine many gut bacteria would not survive the stomach and therefore did not reach the intestines through that route.

Færd

Maybe.

Cerberus

@Færd Perhaps those infections occur when a chunk of food sticks to the stomach wall.

Is that called a wall?

Færd

19:02

Yes: ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Digestion/Stomach-innerlayers.php

Mitch

@Cerberus there's no sticking

not in the stomach

unless you got some weird pouching that the food can't get out of

Cerberus

Are you sure?

Mitch

in the small and large intestines, there can develop 'diverticuli' little tiny pouches all over, that food can hang out in for a while

Cerberus

Perhaps your "unless" is when those infections happen?

Mitch

no I think the bacteria themselves might hang out at a particular spot (not the same as larger scale chunks of food)

-and cause an ulcer (fancy word for 'localized infection') at that spot

Cerberus

19:05

But I don't feel my speculation has been ruled out.

Mitch

nonlocalized infection is like septicemia or flu

Cerberus

How can bacteria hang out at a particular spot if the stomach is continually flushed?

Mitch

@Cerberus which speculation? that a chunk of food gets stuck to the stomach wall?

Cerberus

Hmm does the flu infect your stomach?

Mitch

@Cerberus blood stream

Cerberus

19:07

@Mitch Yes, that stomach infections occur when bacteria are able to multiply in the stomach because they are shielded from the acid by being inside a chunk of food.

@Mitch Oh, I see.

You mean through the blood stream?

Mitch

@Cerberus given all the nuances of that, I couldn't say for sure.

Cerberus

OK.

Mitch

@Cerberus just the difference between a topical infection and a systemic one. systemic mostly via the blood stream.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, the most common infections (such as salmonella) are simply acid resistant. They are not destroyed by the acid.

Cerberus

I meant "speculate" as in "this is a fun thought experiment", not "I believe this".

Mitch

19:09

what if you poor coca cola on them? do they survive that?

@Cerberus You are held accountable for all your speculations. It's in the rule book.

I wonder if... I'd rather not say.

Cerberus

@Mitch Do you mean that, when flu infects the stomach, it does so through the blood stream, rather than through the inside of the oesophagus/stomach, like food?

Mitch

flu is contracted through the air/lungs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus flu is not a stomach illness. It's a virus that goes into your lungs.

Mitch

oh...stomach flu is a thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

or nose.

Cerberus

19:11

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK. Not at all, or not enough to kill them all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus some are not at all destroyed. Some are not all destroyed. Either way they pass through.

Cerberus

Mitch was talking about the flu infecting your stomach. Or that's how I read it.

Mitch

tha one guy gets through

ruins everything

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch "stomach flu" is just food poisoning though.

Mitch

@Cerberus no I wasn't

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which is also not poisoning but an infection

of bacteria

not a virus (which is usually meant by 'flu')

Cerberus

19:13

Oh, okay.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch heh yeah

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why do people call it flu?

Mitch

but I was corrected by MrS re: stomach flu

Cerberus

And why poisoning?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch well, also viruses such as rotavirus

Mitch

19:13

the bacteria create poisonous toxins?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus people don't know medicine

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. hm. yes, that's a stomach flu

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch yes. At least some of the bacteria literally excrete toxins.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "What is the white thing sticking out of my arm after I fell?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Just push it back in.

Mitch

19:14

"Rest a bit. It'll get better"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ow

Cerberus

No, I think you have to pull it out.

Mitch

Ow ow ow

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus hopefully, it's still attached at one end. Otherwise ouch.

Mitch

either way ow

Cerberus

Pull harder.

Mitch

19:18

This is not going to end well

Cerberus

Perhaps not.

But what is?

Matt E. Эллен

19:36

Maybe it will end in a well

Mitch

It's like you're wishing for that.

MετάEd

19:50

Deep subject.

Matt E. Эллен

20:21

It's on my bucket list

BBM

20:39

Hi

Dan Bron

21:35

Question.

In the last week, there's been a couple instances where I've gotten a lot of upvotes in a row, on unrelated questions. What I suspect happened is someone came across some post of mine accidentally, liked what they saw, upvoted it, then checked my profile to learn more about me, and then upvoted a bunch of other stuff.

Everything that was upvoted was in my "top posts" list, which is the first thing any profile visitor would see. So what I'm suspecting is serial-upvoting (like 5-7 things in a row, in two separate streaks).

Cerberus

I would say no.

It happens to me too.

Frankly I don't care about the rep enough to give it much thought.

stack

21:58

Using "the" is a nightmare fore me .. Which one?
- So you are trying to remove all spaces except last one?
- So you are trying to remove all spaces except the last one?

Cerberus

The last one.

Last normally goes with the.

stack

ah ok thx

Dan Bron

@Cerberus Thanks, that's how I feel too, but I didn't know whether I was expected to report it as "improprietous".

Cerberus

22:15

Heh.

It's just ones and zeros, huh?

stack

"hmm" is containing some "surprising" or "confusing" or "understanding" or "accepting" ?

Dan Bron

I cared about rep, actually cared, up to about 3K, I think. Then it stopped mattering to me, an-and-of itself, but I found out there was some priv I wanted at 5K, so I put some effort into that. Since then, I post for its own sake, because it's fun. I don't care about votes any more.

Unless I get a violently negative reaction to something I think is reasonable: then I worry (but still not about the rep, qua rep).

@stack Yes.

Cerberus

@stack I can be all of those things, but the basic emotion expressed with hmm is "I don't know what to say to that: I'm thinking".

stack

I see ..

Cerberus

You may be confused, or sceptical, or interested.

stack

22:21

I think what I was looking for it "interested" ..!

Cerberus

Interested as in, "I'm pondering what you said, because it is complicated and/or deep".

Dan Bron

@stack It's not always interested. As Cerebus says, it's used because it's noncommital.

It may connote "disapproval but I'm not in a position or mood to scold you"

It has a thousand meanings.

stack

@Cerberus Odd .. "sceptical" is detected as a wrong word in this texbox. It paints a red line in the bottom of that

Cerberus

Hmm.

stack

@DanBron I see :-)

Cerberus

22:23

@stack Not in my browser!

stack

@Cerberus what browser are you using? chrome ?

Cerberus

Firefox, of course!

stack

ah ok

Cerberus

The active dictionary is called "English (United Kingdom)".

stack

Yeah .. FF is fine with it .. I've tested ;-)

Cerberus

22:25

Maybe you can switch to a different dictionary in Chrome.

stack

really? Is that possible?

ok I'll search about it

Cerberus

I don't know; it is possible in Firefox.

In Firefox, as on zombo.com, anything is possible.

stack

ah, so I think it would be possible in all browsers

Dan Bron

@Cerberus Whatever that site is suppose to do, it's not doing it for me.

Cerberus

@DanBron Oh? What is it doing for you?

Dan Bron

22:31

Some kind of rainbow throbber. Constantly.

Cerberus

And sound?

Dan Bron

none

Cerberus

Oh.

You need the sound.

Dan Bron

hmm, maybe I have sound off in Chrome, I'll check when i get home

Cerberus

Try it in a different browser?

Good.

Zombo.com is quite famous.

stack

22:34

@Cerberus What's that??? that's the sound of a person that just says "welcome" :-) .. What the purpose of creating that website?

Cerberus

@stack Oh, it's very important.

Is the voice lying?

stack

it just says "welcome to zombo.com", just that... what's important here?

Cerberus

Isn't it inspiring?

It tells you quite a few different things.

stack

Well I got it now .. :-) that's kinda fresh

Cerberus

"You can do anything at Zombo.com ", is what it says. Isn't it true?

Good!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…