English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

cbinder

04:31

Can anybody please help with understanding the phrase ""emotionally motivated self-sacrifice to the supernatural stabilizes in-group moral order."

ManishEarth

06:42

So, just like we have the word "showed" when you make someone see something, is there an analogous word for "made someone hear something" (i.e. a song)

Matt E. Эллен

09:58

@ManishEarth for songs specifically we use played

that might work for other sounds, too

@ManishEarth also, it's not impossible to use show

Ice Box

Why is "cut" and "put" pronounced differently?

Matt E. Эллен

1

Q: Why are "put" and "but" different in their pronunciation?

"Put" and "but" both end in the same letters, so why don't they rhyme? Did they start out with the same sound, and then one of them changed? Or did they start out with different sounds, and just got spelled with the same letter because there weren't enough vowel letters to represent all of the vo...

Ice Box

Yes I found that later. Thanks

Yasashii Eirian

10:27

Is my sentence "Nothing is as rich in games that train logical thinking ability as mathematics." grammatically correct and natural?

terdon

No

Actually, yes. I mean it is grammatical and all but hard to parse for some reason.

Might just be me though. It seems OK now, my first reading was off. I would still have chosen to write something different, however. Perhaps Nothing is richer than mathematics in games that train logical thinking ability

Shafizadeh

What's the meaning of "This brick wall optical illusion is driving the Internet crazy" in this link? I'm trying to understand what's that exactly ...

Yasashii Eirian

10:50

@terdon How about this? "Nothing has games that train logical thinking ability as rich as mathematics."

terdon

@YasashiiEirian That means something else. Here, it is the games that are rich and not mathematics.

@Shafizadeh There is an illusion that is driving the internet crazy

Shafizadeh

@terdon What does "driving" mean in this context?

terdon

@Shafizadeh Oh. That's a very common expression. To "drive someone insane" is to make them insane. Used figuratively here, of course.

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/drive+insane

Shafizadeh

Ah

Gigili

@Mitch I don't have their Handynummer to call them. laughs heartily

Yasashii Eirian

10:58

@terdon How can you interpret it like that?

@terdon How about this? "Nothing with games that train logical thinking ability is as rich as mathematics."

terdon

11:32

@YasashiiEirian No, that just means that nothing else is as rich as mathematics. But "rich in something" is not the same as rich alone. Look. what do you want to emphasize? Do you want to say that mathematics has many such games or do you want to emphasize that nothing has as many such games as mathematics does?

Yasashii Eirian

@terdon I want to say the latter.

terdon

OK, then just say "Nothing is as rich as mathematics when it comes to games that train logical thinking ability" or something similar.

Yasashii Eirian

@terdon OK. Thanks. But it is too long for a slogan. :-)

Færd

12:07

> I am so much my mother's child in that respect. I hear myself channeling her in so many ways.

> -I can't believe you came! -Yeah, I'm so much here!

> I couldn't relate to the movie. It was so much a woman's movie.

Does anything about this use of so much bother you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:00

The second one doesn't work for me. The others are common.

terdon

Yeah, I'd have said I am so here if I were to say something along those lines.

Mitch

@Gigili How can you laugh like that when you have no heart?

Zing!

Færd

Thanks.

Mitch

Oops, sorry. forgot about the heart bypass surgery

Færd

@terdon What about so in the other two?

And can't we say that that use of so much is at least informal?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:11

@Færd we could say that, yes.

Færd

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wouldn't rate it any worse than "informal" though. It's quite common informally.

Færd

I don't know how to choose between so and so much in this type of informal construction.

Apart from some intuition, which isn't that reliable.

tchrist

@Færd “So, are you saying it’s so easy that I should always choose so here?” “No, not so much.”

They aren't interchangeable.

Færd

When the predicative ccomplement is an adjective (easy), things are much easier.

But when it's a noun, it confuses me.

terdon

13:20

@tchrist They kinda are when it's used for emphasis. As in I am so out of here or you are so much your father's child. I can't think of any such cases where so wouldn't fit as well (or better) than so much.

tchrist

> Don’t put so much sugar in my coffee next time. I don’t like it so sweet.

> Don’t put that much sugar in my coffee next time. I don’t like it that sweet.

Færd

@tchrist Oh, sorry for not explaining my problem completely. Much there is a determiner. I'm confused about the adverb much.

When it modifies be.

tchrist

Can adverbs modify be?

> I’m not confused much.

> This place is much improved since last I saw it.

> Are you relieved? I guess a little, but not all that much.

Færd

I guess sometimes it modifies the adjective next to it: much relieved, much better, etc.

tchrist

Yes.

Færd

13:25

And sometimes the verb: I am so much my mother's child.

tchrist

No.

Færd

Oh.

tchrist

That’s modifying my mother’s child.

Not be.

Færd

> I'm usually my mother's child, but sometimes I disobey her.

What about usually?

Are you saying that adverbs don't modify be, but the complement?

tchrist

I asked the question because I didn't know the answer.

terdon

13:28

@Færd Doesn't make much sense there. You are always your mother's child.

Færd

@terdon In the sense of obeying child.

12

Q: Can the verb 'be' be modified?

Comments on this question, now closed, considered whether the verb be could be modified by an adverb. This seems a question worth pursuing in its own right, so may I ask what completely modifies in the following sentence, if it doesn't modify be? Whatever you choose to be, be completely. E...

adverbs be

@terdon So which would you choose between It was so much a woman's movie and It was so a woman's movie ?

Both are equal to you?

terdon

@Færd I doubt I would actually say either myself, but It was so a woman's movie sounds better to me. It was so much a woman's movie leaves me waiting for a that . . .

As in It was so cold that I had to wear a sweater

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd Like terdon, I wouldn't say either, but unlike terdon, I'd use so much here, I think.

I don't like so a

Færd

:) I'm so learning here.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's what I was unsure about: so a.

I can feel people's opinions about this matter, but I can't make it into a coherent theory.

And I couldn't find an authority explaining this use of so and so much.

I guess I'm going to go with my not-so-reliable intuition on this for now.

Thanks to everyone. o/

terdon

@Færd I'm not sure there is one. The fact that @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and I disagree here is just a matter of personal preference. I don't think either one of us has any grammatical rules to back this up.

I don't anyway, he might. :P

tchrist

13:44

Look to the corpora.

terdon

@tchrist I wouldn't know how. I'm not wondering which of the two is used more but whether there is any way of explaining to a non-native which of the two is more natural in a specific case.

tchrist

I was hoping that the corpora would provide ready examples so that we could say why the other one wouldn't work. I've never thought of these as in any way interchangeable.

terdon

@tchrist Really? Can you give an example where they wouldn't be?

tchrist

I’m not so sure.

Cannot be: I’m not so much sure.

Færd

In fact I've done some corpus searching:

1

Q: "Stories are so much a part of our lives that many people seldom think about them." : The use of 'so much'

There are 176 hits in COCA for [be] so much a part of, including the title and: 1- It actually is so much a part of life. 2- Law is so much a part of me, I don't think I'll ever be able to let loose of it. 3- The computer is so much a part of her sons' lives that they sometimes bring a ...

grammar adverbs copula intensifying-adverbs

tchrist

13:53

Oh good!

terdon

@tchrist Different usage. We're talking about the more colloquial and modern(?) use of so/so much as intensifiers. Things like I am so out of here. To me, that sounds much better than I am so much out of here but perhaps @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇would disagree.

Færd

@terdon So sounds better than so much there.

Not that my opinion is of any importance here!

terdon

@Færd Agreed. But that's how I felt about It was so a woman's movie as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon I wouldn't use much there either.

terdon

Ah, good.

Færd

13:59

I think so works better here because we're not thinking about the extent of my being out of here.

> I'm so much out of here that you won't see me the next second.

Mitch

I guess this 'so much ' problem is obscuring the fact that it is shockingly already June.

How did we let it get this far?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's so much June

tchrist

Who’s June?

Mitch

It is so.

no it ain't

Færd

I'd say It's so June, but what do I know.

terdon

14:02

@Færd The so much . . . that . . . construct is a different issue.

One that is not interchangeable with so.

Mitch

That is so strange

Færd

@terdon Can't we have so ... that ... ?

Mitch

'so' and 'so much are modifying the predicate, not 'is'.

@Færd that's a different construction.

Færd

Oh.

Mitch

words have many meanings.

and uses

Færd

14:05

@Mitch Attempt to change the subject: Fail.

Mitch

just because you use the same letters/sounds in one context as another, doesn't mean they mean the same thing.

@Færd haha.

parried and thrust. I've already changed it to linguistic philosophy

I think I'll change it back to 'so' just to mess with it

there. done.

tchrist

Towards a Philanthropy of Tongues

Mitch

Sew what?

Færd

So can't we say I am so my mother's child that I never disobey her?

Mitch

@tchrist The hermeneutics of pre-Columbian Effective Dream Symbology

@Færd sure you can say that.

terdon

14:08

@Færd Yes indeed. But that's just it. So X that Y is a different thing and much more common.

Mitch

later.

terdon

Um. Or is it? Never mind, I'm getting confused. Trying to multitask too much.

Færd

But when I said I'm so much out of here that you won't see me the next second you said it's a different thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd heh I was making a joke. *It's so much June seems ungrammatical to me.

Færd

@terdon Don't worry about it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Glad that there's a native speaker who shares my instinct.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:12

@Færd instinctively I'd say it works where the thing you're emphasizing is possibly smaller or larger. How much of a woman's movie was it? so much. It was so much a woman's movie.

Færd

I guess they call it a gradable situation.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Færd F-

Færd

Is that my grade?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Færd Don't worry, it's arbitrary

The only grade that counts is the one on the test

You know, the one with questions completely irrelevant to the course

Færd

What if I tell you that even those grades didn't matter to me much.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

14:22

Then you would be correct

Mitch

@Demisemihemidemisemiquaver depends. some admissions offices do a simple calculation on GPA and SAT scores, set a cutoff, and those not past the cutoff don't get considered.

Mitch

14:42

Oops. That's just a silly rumor meant to scare the crap out of applicants. I don't know how that got out.

MετάEd

15:19

@Demisemihemidemisemiquaver What we have here is a failure to fail.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

Wait, that report card is wrong, it actually has a grade

And that counts as competition

Now all of our grades are emoticons

Damkerng T.

15:32

@Færd Maybe this will muddle the matter even further, but I think it helps if you think of some sos as "very" and some sos as "truly/really", plus some special constructions like so ADJ a NOUN and so ADJ that SOMETHING.

Kit Z. Fox

17:37

@tchrist I invoke you.

tchrist

just a sec, on call

Kit Z. Fox

no rush.

terdon

@KitZ.Fox Holy crap, that works? Wow!

Kit Z. Fox

It might not work for everyone.

And it might not work for me anymore after I get around to asking him this silly favor.

But he has the right kind of expertise for it.

And I think he'll find it interesting.

terdon

Hmm. I smell a regex coming on.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

17:48

@Demisemihemidemisemiquaver I invoke you

Holy crap it worked

terdon

Demisemicircular?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

A Demisemihemidemisemiquaver, in music, is a note played for 1/256'th the duration of a whole note

Matt E. Эллен

18:15

or 2/512ths

Færd

@DamkerngT. Nice classification Damkerng. How do you think that would help with the so or so much problem?

Damkerng T.

Well, it'd pretty much depend on the meaning of so, I think.

(in a given utterance, I mean)

Kit Z. Fox

0

Q: Make comments look like second class citizens

I'm pretty sure every site has had at least one Commentgate -- where a user posts on Meta to complain that their Very Important Comment was viciously deleted by a moderator who was drunk with power. The usual and customary response is to remind the community member that comments are second-class ...

feature-request comments design

Just gonna put that there.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

Put a golden star sticker on each post

And comments get silver stars

Damkerng T.

@KitZ.Fox FWIW, I noticed that comments on EL&U are in a bigger font than most stacks (only those I'm familiar with, BTW).

Kit Z. Fox

18:20

I just posted a bug on our Meta for that.

I checked while I was researching for the other.

Færd

@DamkerngT. Yes. I thought since you classified the meanings, some of them (namely, the ones which mean very, ...) are more likely to entail much.

Damkerng T.

@Færd It helps me in the sense that very much works, but truly much doesn't.

Færd

Yep.

Damkerng T.

> “I'm so hanging out with you up here all the time.” -- An example that so much doesn't work because this so is more like "truly/really" than "very".

Færd

@DamkerngT. I guess they call it a non-gradable situation.

Damkerng T.

18:32

Probably. I've never thought of it that way, though.

Ah, I shouldn't've block-quoted it up there!

Færd

-To what extent? -very. (gradable)

-Yes or no? -Truly yes/no. (non-gradable)

Damkerng T.

Maybe I don't have a good context for it here, but answering "To what extent?" with "Very." strikes me as odd.

Færd

Okay. -How much? -Very.

Damkerng T.

nods -- That makes more sense to me.

Færd

Guess that's better. I'm not insisting that this is the answer.

Just shooting some shots off the top of my head.

Kit Z. Fox

18:41

OK, so I have to go in a bit, but here's what I wanted: I'd like to take a text like The Walrus and the Carpenter and substitute phonetic clusters with the end result being a poem of unintelligible gibberish that maintains the rhyme and meter. I thought @tchrist might be interested in doing/helping.

Mitch

19:04

@KitZ.Fox wait... you want to take Jabberwocky and make it unintelligible but rhyme and rhythm remain?

Kit Z. Fox

No. The Walrus and the Carpenter.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен or 1/2 128th's

@KitZ.Fox aha! gotcha! That's where Jabberwocky comes from! Aha!

+1 me!

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch fractional fractions? heretic!

Mitch

and it already doesn't make sense!

another +1

try and catch up!

@MattE.Эллен it's music so it's OK.

Matt E. Эллен

+2 me

catching up is easy!

Mitch

19:07

@MattE.Эллен pfft...no

no trumping in chat!

Matt E. Эллен

I didn't trump! I equalised

Mitch

anyway, i trumped first, and there are no take backs, so by fiat I win

Matt E. Эллен

if you call all that methane winning

Mitch

I do.

@KitZ.Fox Hm... there is the slightest possibility that I am thinking of another reality.

But, that brings up the issue of all the grammar words, articles and helper verbs and prepositions. Those should probably -not- be rewritten, that way it would be more readable.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:26

@KitZ.Fox I think the Android comment font is pushing the limits of readability. Comments are shit on the android app... I loathe clicking notifications of comment replies, trying to compose or edit comments, etc. on the app.

Mazura

19:45

Heh. Those stars are still there.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

We need a day to convince newcomers never to visit again

A day where the chat speaks only in IPA pronunciation

Mazura

BS alert.

NVZ

Somebody please closevote this TROLL question. english.stackexchange.com/q/329270/50044

Mazura

So where's y'alls VTC?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Mazura pain

@Mazura ...?

Mazura

19:48

@NVZ Only me and one other has VTC.

Dan Bron

Guys, little help, a troll posted a silly question and set up a voting ring to vote on it. Possibly aiming for HNQ sidebar, not sure. Anyway, can I get 3 more closevotes?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

What's a VTC?

Dan Bron

0

Q: Alternative uses of the word 'wet'

It was my understanding that being 'wet' referred to the condition of having been rained upon, or possibly getting fresh out of a particularly pleasant Sunday bath (I do love my long, sedate, restful bubble baths -- a subject I have often talked about with my friend Barney Rubble). Still, I have ...

usage

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@DanBron You're the third guy to ask, buddy.

Dan Bron

Whoops, sorry, I'm bad at chat. I'm on a mobile

NVZ

19:49

Who's first?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

Mazura

NVZ

What's on second.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

Two posts ahead of you

You are second

Silver star for you!

NVZ

Nope. I was referring to youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

Can't click that

School cache

You'll have to bore me with the details

NVZ

19:51

It's a comedy skit: "Who's on first" by Abbott & Costello

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

I see

I'll check it out later

Ugh

Mazura

"Wait, are we talking about the first thing or the second thing?" con-si-gli-er-e

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

My Google Drive is so organized it's hard to find anything

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Demisemihemidemisemiquaver Just flag as spam

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Already did

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:53

everyone else: even if you can't close-vote, you can still flag as spam.

spam gets nuked automatically

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

What's the requirement to close-vote?

Mazura

3k

Don't feed the troll with DVs. Just one more VTC needed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

reporting spam auto-downvotes

closed, and already 2 delete votes.

Mazura

Oh, IDK that. At least TIL, all accredited dictionaries that I checked do not contain this definition.

NVZ

Even then, I'll probably get a declined flag with reason "use your votes"

Mazura

20:00

Ok, now where's that star-cleaner? >>> There's one that's obsolete.

NVZ

Me? I'm here to Flag and Close Vote. And I'm all out of votes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NVZ huh, I didn't realize you could see your flags.

Apparently I flagged this answer as "not an answer" and the flag was "disputed"

2

A: Where does the word “jism” come from?

I always think of this poem by Gwendolyn Brooks. She spoke about it at a reading and mentioned the sexual connotation of Jazz. And I've always loved those line breaks like a hip thrust out. THE POOL PLAYERS. SEVEN AT THE GOLDEN SHOVEL. We real cool. We Left school. We Lurk late. We Strike stra...

It's just someone quoting a poem

I can't re-raise the flag either

WTH

@Mazura done

NVZ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, well. Flagging old posts return "declined" 11 out of 10 times. I had 32 declined flags in a row once.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have only one declined flag, but several disputed ones.

The thing is, only our mods see those flags, right? So which mod thinks that crap is an answer?

NVZ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think mods "dispute", mods only "decline" or "accept"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:08

... so that means one mod accepted it, and another declined it?

NVZ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "disputed" is the result from normal review queues. I'm not sure, though

tchrist

185

A: What is a disputed flag?

A disputed flag is whenever your flag was dismissed as neither helpful or declined, someone reviewed your flag but no conclusive action was taken. This is intended for use in cases where the validity of a flag is ambiguous. Currently, the following scenarios may result in a flag being disputed:...

NVZ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No. One mod decides and that's final.

I stand kind of corrected. See tchrist message.

tchrist

@DanBron What voting ring are you referring to?

NVZ

Ring? Sounds unappealing.

That troll question needed to be deleted real fast and so we asked here

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:11

@tchrist So, it's a catch-all label for "nothing is going to happen because reasons"?

NVZ

Question What happens to inactive accounts after a long time?

tchrist

If you think there is one, you can raise a custom flag and explain there.

NVZ

@tchrist It's taken care of.

tchrist

I represent that remark.

Mazura

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wrong: shmoop.com/we-real-cool/stanza-4-summary.html

I can't trace the sources though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:17

@Mazura what's "wrong"?

Mazura

That answer.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no, it means that people in the review queue click "looks OK" enough times

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mazura You mean that not-an-answer?

Mazura

Yep. That shmoop page says the author made no intentional sexual suggestion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен yeah it's clearer now. So it's not "The Mods Must Be Crazy" but rather, the regular users are.

Matt E. Эллен

20:19

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yup :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mazura It wouldn't even matter if she did. By definition, a not-an-answer doesn't answer the question, therefore can't really be right or wrong.

@MattE.Эллен thanks

Matt E. Эллен

no probs :)

Mazura

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The OP does mention Jazz, so it would be ancillary if it was correct. It is entirely off base because it isn't.

I think... questioning poetry isn't my forte.

IMO, it's no one's.

TRiG

20:43

I just spotted a yous in the wild.

Cerberus

Did you shoot it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Funny how we had singular you, which must have been contentions at some point, and now people want a more plural you, hence yous, yall

One day they will strictly be singular and the plural will be theyall

But then again, we have singular yall, leading to all yall

Also one day another language, such as Spanish, will borrow "the hoi polloi", and it will become "los the hoi polloi"

3

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Over everyone's dead bodies!

Wait...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, yes, probably

Cerberus

You monster.

Matt E. Эллен

20:54

@Cerberus well, you'd be best placed to know!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And would that language be beautiful?

@MattE.Эллен I'll be on top of the pile and later the first thing they see...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure.

Why not.

Cerberus

Disregarding several principles of beauty in language?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol

oh, that reminds me. Laugh out loud -> lol -> lawl -> singular lawl -> all y'lawl

3

You read it here first, folks.

Cerberus

dies

Dan Bron

20:58

@tchrist @tchrist The question is gone now, so I suppose it's moot, but when a user questioned why such an ignorant question garnered 3+ fav stars in less than 10 minutes (and also why initially any downvote was immediately cancelled out?, can't remember, though that happened to me too), OP responded that they'd sent the link out to a bunch of their friends, and they were "having a party".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no, dice

Cerberus

I don't dice. I cube.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Soon we'll have singular dice too

Cerberus

And I mince words.

facepaw

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it's already out there

Dan Bron

20:59

I don't even talk, I tesseract.

Cerberus

closes eyes

tchrist

@Cerberus Mincing again, are we?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

45

Q: Singular of "dice"

After a discussion on the topic I found out that the oxford dictionary describes that Historically, dice is the plural of die, but in modern standard English dice is both the singular and the plural: 'throw the dice' could mean a reference to either one or more than one dice. and dice. ...

word-usage

Cerberus

@DanBron Hmm I suppose that's "legal" as such...

@tchrist Someone must.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…