English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:00 PM

@WillHunting dogs eat cat food too if they can get it.

speedyGonzales

I know that but i consider that the difference between two language is based on the story behind that or reason.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 One pack cigarette or one stick cigarette, one cup wine or one bottle wine, etc. too.

user19161

@speedyGonzales There are many things in this world for which there is no reason. After all, reason cannot even be defined.

speedyGonzales

In German language you can say something like 67 I think and it means fag, slang for homosexual

user19161

Reason is the attempt of the human mind to justify effect from a cause.

speedyGonzales

3:02 PM

It is because in some old law books in pararaph 67 there was a point states that homosexual behaviour is not permitted

i Was looking for story like that

RegDwight Ѭſ道

"Work" is not slang, though. It's an everyday word.

user19161

@speedyGonzales Anyway law is not reason. Law is law.

user19161

Law is made by imperfect man for an imperfect world.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Yeah we measure things in English too, especially uncountable things like drinks. But in Chinese you have to measure everything. And there are dozens of measure words. So there is a measure word for animals that's different from the measure word for other kinds of animals, etc. (but you know that, Kit)

speedyGonzales

that is offtopic @will

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:04 PM

A word is (un)countable for no other reason than one day a native speaker started using it that way, and enough other native speakers picked it up.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, you measure fish, newspapers, and cigarettes with the same word.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

14

Q: Where do accents and dialects come from?

Why do people in different areas speak differently? Where do accents come from, how do they change and/or survive over time and why do we have them? Reading recommendations on this topic would be welcome.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Hm... I'll have to look that up.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Read the answer to that question, @speedy.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's zhi, third tone I think.

Measure word for long sticklike things.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:05 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Exactly: language is nothing more than a consensus of sounds.

speedyGonzales

Well when I have been learning English grammar i have heard for a lot of exceptions which i have to take them as truth as they are. But when i was learning German I have realized that some of Germans grammar law explain them

grammar rules, sorry

Kitḫ

So did you look at the etymology of "work" then?

Does it come from Bulgarian?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I don't think German has less exceptions than English.

Kitḫ

Ack! I hate it when you do that, @Reg.

speedyGonzales

I haven't said that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:07 PM

@Kitḫ stick-like things is "tiao4" and I can see that being used for a fish or a chopstick, but I would've thought newspaper used a different words

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 — Unfortunately, I think that should be moved to linguistics.se now.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Damn. Chinese is too rusty apparently.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto It's too old, though.

We don't move old stuff around.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ mine too, apparently it's tiao2

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ I hope you are well aware that I did it just for you, honey.

Robusto

3:08 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 — How old does something have to be to be "too old"?

user19161

@speedyGonzales Sorry, I was just trying to be funny. Obviously that failed.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto Seven. No wait, eight.

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 I feel so special. blush

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Seriously though, basically as soon as the OP is no longer around to care about the question.

Kitḫ

What's newspaper? Bao3?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:08 PM

Which can be as soon as two seconds after he asks it.

user19161

@Robusto This reminds me of the classic question. How long does it take for something to be called a classic?

Robusto

@Kitḫ — You are special. Like the Olympics.

Kitḫ

@Robusto That means a lot coming from you.

speedyGonzales

@will he is classic when he is dead

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Ok it looks like there is a zhi1 for chopsticks and other stick-y things chinese-lessons.com/mandarin/grammarL7Measures.htm

speedyGonzales

3:09 PM

Man can be too old for smth

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 No honeys in chat.

MetaEd

@Robusto Maybe it's one of those "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" things.

speedyGonzales

how about sweetie, hottie, my fluffy tedy bear and ect :D (rofl)

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ Thanks! If you have the time and inclination, could you fix the spelling of excerpt in the penultimate paragraph?

Robusto

@MetaEd — As good a definition of capricious or arbitrary as one could wish, I guess.

user19161

3:10 PM

@MattЭллен Penultimate is a difficult word.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@WillHunting Well, that's easy. Classical starts somewhere around 1750, so 262 years.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting reminds me of what my daughter said this morning when I called her a "sleepy bear", "I'm not a bear! I'm a girl! My name's M---! You can call me a sweetie-muffin!" (all said in a whiny tone)

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah, that's the one I was thinking of! Yay!

MetaEd

@Robusto Unless, of course, you are a Supreme Court justice.

Kitḫ

Of course, as soon as you said "tiao," I thought "yi tiao yu" and knew it was right.

user19161

3:11 PM

@speedyGonzales I am glad you are laughing. So now I know you have a sense of humour too.

Robusto

@WillHunting — I guess that makes antepenultimate that much harder. It's like, moar.

@MetaEd — Let's not say things we can't take back.

MetaEd

lol

suffering from caffeine withdrawal

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен Done and done.

Robusto

But you don't have to suffer. Coffee is everywhere. It freakin' grows on trees, ferchrissakes.

Kitḫ

I thought they were bushes?

MetaEd

3:13 PM

15 hours ago, by Kitḫ

@MetaEd Try Robert's Micropoche. ;-)

?

@Robusto Here it seems to grow in little foil pouches.

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ thank you :)

Robusto

@Kitḫ — Your mind is always in the gutter. But, really, put it wherever you want.

@MetaEd — No. It doesn't grow once it's been put in foil. If it does, you should throw it out.

Kitḫ

@MetaEd The word "seche." I am certain it is in Robert's Micropoche or perhaps Petit Larousse.

Hmm. Apparently, kids these days just call it Le Robert Micro.

We thought it was funny to call it the Micropoche.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I don't think we ever called it anything other than Micro Robert Poche.

Kitḫ

Hmm.

Mahnax

3:23 PM

Hmm. I learned how to say "I'm a cat" in Russian last night.

very useful, @Mahnax

@MattЭллен I agree.

This is what mine looks like.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Mahnax Ты — кошка?

Mahnax

3:26 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Nah, I'm not actually a cat.

aedia λ

Mahnax es un gato?

Mahnax

@aediaλ Nein!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Mahnax Ты — кошка понарошку?

aedia λ

Nadie lo me dijo!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I just noticed how few Russian is spoken in this chat.

Mahnax

3:27 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Not that, either.

Matt Эллен

Si! Mahnax es un gato grande y viejo

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 covers ears

Mahnax

Now you're making me use Google translate.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ Try covering your eyes, lol.

Mahnax

3:27 PM

@MattЭллен Old?

Matt Эллен

well, in cat years

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 Oh damn. That's why it wasn't working.

aedia λ

@MattЭллен psst adjectives after the noun

Kitḫ

@aediaλ I was just typing that for the second time.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Apr 17 '11 at 20:41, by RegDwight

I'm here to help.

Kitḫ

3:28 PM

Un gato grande y viejo.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Grand?

Y u eated ending?

Kitḫ

I didn't.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well in less than two minutes you did.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ I definitely need a French wordlist for my blood game, yes. I think I am at the point where I can install a few more dictionaries and they will just magically show up in the game.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Oh sorry, in fewer than two minutes you did.

Seriously, you don't talk like that, do you?

aedia λ

3:31 PM

I don't think I ever really say "fewer" anythings.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ really?

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 Minutes are divisible, so you would use "less" not "fewer."

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Excuses, excuses.

You don't make sense.

Matt Эллен

minutes are minute

Kitḫ

No, rules. Not excuses.

It makes perfect sense! What is not sensible about it?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:32 PM

So you say "less cats"?

Matt Эллен

I've lived for fewer minutes than you, @Kit

aedia λ

There are less cats here than I expected.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cats are not divisible, so you would have to use "fewer".

Kitḫ

Cat is not divisible!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Okay I see.

aedia λ

3:33 PM

That's what I would actually say among friends I think.

It's hard to report now that I'm thinking about it.

Kitḫ

slaps @aedia

No!

Bad unicorn!

aedia λ

Hey I wouldn't write it that way.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So what about apples? Apples are divisible.

Kitḫ

Fewer cats, fewer! stomps little foot

@RegDwightѬſ道 No, they aren't.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Thus, less apples.

Kitḫ

3:34 PM

Fewer apples, less applesauce.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

For sure they are! You never cut an apple into pieces for your children?

Kitḫ

Apples are integer counts.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Your poor siblings have to swallow them in one piece?

Kitḫ

Apple slices are integer counts.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Just like seconds.

Minutes can be divided into seconds. Apples can be divided into slices.

Kitḫ

3:35 PM

Seconds are continuous quantities.

Matt Эллен

I don't know this rule about division. I say if you can shrink it you use less, if you can't you use fewer. So, since a minute is a whole thing that can't be shrunk I use fewer

Kitḫ

Minutes are continuous quantities.

aedia λ

I would write, "Aedia walked into the room. Hmm, she thought to herself, there aren't as many cats here as I expected." or "Aedia walked into the room and counted the cats. One, two, three: there were fewer cats than she had expected."

Mahnax

Strips into strips, strips into bits. Mm, bacon.

Kitḫ

Apples are not.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:36 PM

An apple is very much continuous.

Or do your apples all have worms in them?

Kitḫ

Apples are discrete quantities.

Matt Эллен

so are minutes

aedia λ

You can peel it continuously right? But it has little holes around where the seeds are. They have to breathe.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yup. Apples are no more discrete than minutes.

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Do you mean discrete?

Kitḫ

3:37 PM

@Mahnax Yes, thanks.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Awww Mahnax is spoiling the fun. Now I have to edit mine, too.

Kitḫ

Minutes are not discrete.

they are!

@Kitḫ Anytime.

they come in chunks

3:37 PM

Of course they are.

Matt Эллен

they're not real numbers

user19161

There is a difference between discrete and discreet.

Matt Эллен

they're integers

Kitḫ

digs heels in

RegDwight Ѭſ道

What is discrete about apples that is not discrete about minutes?

Kitḫ

3:38 PM

@MattЭллен 1.5 minutes is a legitimate quantity.

aedia λ

@WillHunting They have the same letters.

Matt Эллен

As is 1.5 apples

user19161

There are time minutes and also meeting minutes.

Kitḫ

folds arms stubbornly

user19161

@mahnax Boo!

aedia λ

3:39 PM

@MattЭллен They r to reel numbrs

Mahnax

@WillHunting Hello there.

user19161

@Mahnax I know you definitely have computer class today.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ Aye, I'm kinda fudging the definition of "real numbers" :D

Mahnax

@WillHunting Yep. I'm finished though.

Kitḫ

You can say fewer minutes, or less time, I don't care. I will not accept "less apples."

user19161

3:40 PM

@MattЭллен It's quite hard to define the real numbers from set theory. It could take about 50 pages to do it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Not even less than one?

Mahnax

Yeah, I have to say that fewer apples is correct too.

Kitḫ

Less than one what?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No one in his right mind would ever say, "give me fewer than ten apples".

user19161

But I can say less apple if I am referring to apple flesh or apple juice.

aedia λ

3:41 PM

Less than one real number?

Matt Эллен

Someone stole a chunk of my apple! I have less apple. Someone stole one of my apples! I have fewer apples.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

People just don't talk like that. And spoken language is primary.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I would, but as you know I am not in the right state of mind.

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 I would.

aedia λ

@MattЭллен You like totally don't talk like that, do you?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:42 PM

You first learn to talk, and then, decades later, someone comes along and tries to impose some rules on top of that to explain what you are doing naturally.

And they fail miserably.

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен Yes!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But they will still insist that they are right.

user19161

@aediaλ Full of like as usual.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ I think so

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see you are very not prescriptivist.

Kitḫ

3:43 PM

Whateves.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ That is wrong.

That word does not exist.

Kitḫ

It will always be my biggest peeve.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You must not, I repeat: must not, say whateves.

user19161

You also must not say matress.

Kitḫ

tch

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:44 PM

You misspelled tcsh.

Kitḫ

Don't belabor ur silly descriptivist point, @Reg.

user19161

Jez tch for all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Ok I was away from this room for the whole "minutes are divisible" thing but I agree with Kit, I use "less" sometimes for "minutes" when I'm using minutes to express the size of a quantity of time, where time is "uncountable" (though measurable).

aedia λ

@MattЭллен I think I might use fewer in "Now I've got fewer apples" but I would be really really unlikely to say "I have fewer apples"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Since time is uncountable you can say "less than 2 minutes" (and I do say that). But I would not normally say "less than 2 apples", I'd use "fewer".

Matt Эллен

3:46 PM

@aediaλ I just hope no one steals our apples, or this whole argument will start again!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You can use whatever you want. Nobody objects to that. What I object to is completely invented reasons why you supposedly do that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 it's not completely invented.

user19161

Less than 2 minutes could be interpreted as short for less than 2 minutes of time obviously.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it follows grammatical rules

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Just be a man, or a woman, and step up and say, I just say stuff because that's how my mother told me.

Kitḫ

3:46 PM

The same completely invented reasons for putting -ed on a verb to indicate past tense!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 My mother spoke French, so, your excuse fails

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ yeah, like in teached or doed?

Kitḫ

Exactly.

user19161

I think if there are no rules then there need not be EL&U. Everyone can just say whatever they want.

Matt Эллен

and reached and goed

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:47 PM

My daughter tells my mother "I speak better English than YOU!, You're French!"

Kitḫ

You and I know it is not as simple as "that's what you were teached."

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Then why do you try to make it that simple?

Kitḫ

The rules are not invented. They exist.

aedia λ

Iz wut brain patterns maded.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

"Here's the rule, use it" is what you say. Well you contradict yourself.

user19161

3:48 PM

This is becoming a philosophical discussion as usual.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ I'd say the rules emerged.

Kitḫ

shrugs I don't care. I stick by my peeve.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ You know very well that the rule about less vs fewer was invented.

Kitḫ

21 secs ago, by Kitḫ

shrugs I don't care. I stick by my peeve.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Fair enough, but then just say so right from the start.

user19161

3:49 PM

I am not sure the rule was invented or not, there is no proof.

Kitḫ

It bugs me when I hear it used incorrectly. It sounds wrong, wrong, wrong to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 citation?

user19161

Truth is based on proof. Faith is based on evidence.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Everyone can be unreasonable. Noöne objects to that. What I object to is people pretending to be reasonable when they are not.

aedia λ

@Kitḫ Maybe in your dialect there is a bit of a distinction, then. But there sure ain't in mine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:49 PM

@WillHunting you keep saying that. both those statements are false.

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 You know that, that's why you needle me about it.

user19161

Evidence is not proof, so faith is not truth.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

34

A: "Less" vs. "fewer"

Ah, less vs. fewer. Another arrow in the prescriptivist’s quiver of pointless pedantry. There's even a Wikipedia article about the dispute. There is also a Language Log entry about the matter too. According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, a usage guide that looks carefully at ...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 Even if the source of the rule is arbitrary, that doesn't mean that the rule isn't being applied in a reasonable way that follows intrinsic grammatical rules.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

We even know the name of the man, and the exact year he invented the rule in.

Kitḫ

3:51 PM

So I am assuming that this exercise is to make you feel warm and fuzzy, and I hope it is working, because otherwise, I shall be very annoyed.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The point is, it is obviously not being applied, by millions of native speakers, all over the world, every single day, over and over again.

@Kitḫ I have no mission here. In fact I've been trying to escape for the last twenty minutes or so because we're sitting on full bars without a war.

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 What? Then why are you baiting me?

user19161

End of discussion. Everyone back to WORK.

aedia λ

Ack don't say that! My eyes!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ Me? You serious?

Kitḫ

3:53 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Um, yeah. You did. You know you did.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I truly don't.

aedia λ

giggles unstoppable force meets the immovable object

Mahnax

kaboom

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 No, I'm not talking about other speakers, I'm talking about Kit saying "less than 2 minutes" which follows from the grammatical use of "less" with "time". It's not illogical or contradictory. It just means that "less vs fewer" isn't as simple as "countable vs uncountable" as it's often stated. Even if "less vs fewer" is a debate that should never have been started.

Kitḫ

46 mins ago, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ I hope you are well aware that I did it just for you, honey.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:54 PM

I have better stuff to do than enriching the Internet with the fifty millionth discussion about less vs. fewer.

user19161

@Mahnax See? The oldies are so childish.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Absolutely.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, thanks for posting that nohat answer, I'd read it before and forgotten. Now I am going to mentally cross that rule out of my head.