English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

13:00

@question_asker Being thrown under a bus will kill you pretty quickly.

Matt E. Эллен

Mitch and the prescriptivists are headlining SXSW

Mitch

It's more of a mess for everyone else to clean up.

question_asker

@Mitch Yes, true.

But being thrown under a bus posthumously is really just a big mess

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Our hit song "Between her and I"

@question_asker That's just salt on a wound.

Or rather asphalt.

question_asker

whose fault?

Mitch

13:02

haha. .. gross.

question_asker

groß

Kit Z. Fox

13:28

I found my old Magic cards last night.

Matt E. Эллен

oh! what sets are they from?

Kit Z. Fox

Revised.

4th edition? I'm not positive. The timeframe is right.

I would have bought them sometime between 1993 and 1994.

Cerberus

@terdon There is consensus that they were as you describe.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox The year numbers for the early nineties are still mentally in the future for me

Cerberus

I've actually heard higher death numbers for the Long March.

Mitch

13:41

@Cerberus Are you guys arguing over who was more of a jerk, Stalin or Mao?

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox sounds like alpha or beta, then, maybe. MTG first came out in 1993

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch It's a competition. You don't get to be outraged if someone else did something worse.

@MattE.Эллен Well, these have white borders, and I think alpha and beta had black ones.

And there's a copyright symbol but no year.

Mitch

I think it's like ranking of colleges. Once you're at the top, the comparisons aren't so meaningful.

terdon

@Mitch question_asker seems to disagree with the assertion that those two killed more people between them than anyone else in history.

Mitch

Harvard grade inflated thousands of students from the late 60's to the 90's. Princeton didn't as much but they're a smaller school.

Kit Z. Fox

13:44

I think outrageous behavior is outrageous.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox that is not a very outrageous thing to say

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox yeah, looks like fourth then. all the way back to 1995!

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon Why is it important if that's correct or not?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен what edition are they up to now?

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен Well. But. It would be before 1995. Oh. Hmm. Maybe I played in the spring.

terdon

13:45

@KitZ.Fox Only because that was the subject under discussion.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox the ones before fourth, as you say, have black borders.

Kit Z. Fox

@terdon And whether that's correct was the important part of the discussion?

Mitch

@terdon No one seems to blame Caesar for all the massacres.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox ah, those would be Revised, then

terdon

@Mitch Not even close in terms of numbers.

Mitch

13:46

Wait, wasn't he sort of 'modern' for not killing absolutely everybody?

terdon

@KitZ.Fox One of them, yes.

Kit Z. Fox

Huh. Seems like there are much more interesting points that could be discussed there.

Mitch

@terdon I don't think you allow him the intent. They didn't have the technology.

terdon

@KitZ.Fox To each their own then, I guess.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Like the Tom Selleck mustache. I can't even

terdon

13:48

@Mitch Sure, not for lack of trying.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch I think they stopped calling them "editions" with the tenth edition. these days it's core set and story(?) sets. the latest set is Shadows Over Innistrad. The latest core is Magic Origins

Mitch

@terdon Now Genghis Khan...

Kit Z. Fox

Like, why would a person be motivated to engage in genocide or other mass murders?

Mitch

@terdon I blame him for not trying hard enough.

Kit Z. Fox

Wouldn't it get boring after a while?

Mitch

13:49

It becomes a habit

terdon

@Mitch Slacker.

Mitch

@terdon Exactly

Kit Z. Fox

I mean, I understand mass casualties when you're talking about warring nations, but systematically killing civilians--that's a lot of effort and logistics for what purpose exactly?

Not much return on investment. Unless maybe soylent green. Even then.

And when has that plan ever really worked?

Really? That's not more interesting than 'who killed the most people'?

Frigging boys.

question_asker

man I remember saying multiple times that I didn't want to get into it

Kit Z. Fox

shrugs

So is "shewed" an old form of "showed"?

Dictionary.com says it's an old-fashioned variant, but I'm wondering if it's used particularly.

Looks to be Victorian.

But did the usage overlap, like "I'll show him this thing, then I've shewed it to him"?

question_asker

14:00

that's wonderful

Kit Z. Fox

Is it just the 'e' that changes in all forms? Is there a 'shewn'?

Apparently there is.

Mitch

I remember 'shew from maybe CS Lewis?

@KitZ.Fox you gotta keep score. What else is the point?

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox it's used in Lovecraft a fair bit

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox You don't just systematically kill "civilians" though. You systematically kill "undesired people", to make room for the ones you favour.

It's a conceptually easy solution that, if taken far enough, eliminates threats and frees up resources.

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен Yes, that's why I noticed it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:08

Just killing the fighting class leaves lots of orphans and widows who are angry at you and who need feeding.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox he does use shew. I can't remember if there's any shewn

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, of course you want to re-label them. I just mean that these are non-combatants, so not as much of a physical threat.

But when you kill millions of people, that's a ton of work. It consumes a lot of resources.

You have to divert your combatants for that purpose, for instance.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox it can, yes. But war, in general, also consumes resources, and you could see it as an investment.

Kit Z. Fox

But it weakens your war machine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As does any combat

Kit Z. Fox

14:11

Overall, it's a pretty poor choice for world dominion.

So is war, of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not saying it's the best solution. There are drawbacks.

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен Dictionary.com says yes, but I don't remember seeing it.

I wonder if they were pronounced differently or if it was only the spelling.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But "genocide" was probably pretty common when an entire people were a small enough group that you could round them all up. Of course, that also wastes the valuable women-folk who can be raped or taken as slave wives. Or just slaves.

Kit Z. Fox

I suppose it depends on what you want dominion over.

But the men-folk could provide labor if they were properly subjugated.

It's not like they were valueless.

I wonder if the labor movement decreased the general atmosphere of genocide by increasing the perceived value of people.

<-- needs more coffee and sleep.

Matt E. Эллен

Cthulhu Costume - Homemade Latex Suit

►

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:21

I think standardized education, combined with growing emphasis on civil rights and equality, as well as wider use of tools like movies and books to expose people to more stories where they can learn empathy with strangers, has led to people broadening their concept of "tribe" or "people whose welfare I should care about, at least a little", to the point where genocide is no longer tolerable.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox books.google.co.uk/…

Kit Z. Fox

@MattE.Эллен That's a lot of work.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox yeah. it looks pretty good, but I'm not sure I'd go to the effort :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:40

@KitZ.Fox Not only did he do the work of making the costume, but he did the work of making a video.

crl

Do you use the word 'gaffe'? I wonder if it's the same than french, hehe yes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

there is an English word "gaffe", yes

Kit Z. Fox

Yes.

crl

Gaston Lagaffe

Kit Z. Fox

Oh. Huh. Bet "gaffer" is related, innit?

I never put that together before.

crl

14:43

you're such a 'gaffeuse'

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I feel that way too, but it also makes me surprised that there is still such virulent racism existing nowadays. Maybe it's just not as virulent as it used to be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox Google's define: tool says gaffer comes from "godfather"

crl

a bug in google's AI

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I think overall there is less racism, and that makes it more shocking when you see it.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 is a gaffer lighting or electricity?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:45

Google says "gaffe" comes from the French for "boat hook" which was used to mean "blunder"

@Mitch I'm referring to the "old man" sense.

crl

> Early 20th century: from French, literally 'boathook' (from Provençal gaf: see gaff1), used colloquially to mean 'blunder'.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 people just know now not to say absolutely everything that flits across their minds.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Gaffer (filmmaking)

A gaffer in the motion picture industry and on a television crew is the head electrician, responsible for the execution (and sometimes the design) of the lighting plan for a production. The term gaffer originally related to the moving of overhead equipment to control lighting levels using a gaff. The term has been used for the chief electrician in films since 1936 according to the Oxford English Dictionary. However, a book on motion picture production from 1929 refers to the chief electrician as the Gaffer. The gaffer's assistant is the best boy. Sometimes the Gaffer is credited as Chief Lighting...

@Mitch wikipedia says "both"

Mitch

and the key grip?

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Person who moves the dolly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:47

I'm all out of googling things for other people today :p

Kit Z. Fox

Grips handle the equipment. Foley is the sound artist.

Mitch

Oh.

Kit Z. Fox

The key grip is the lead.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you're so good at it!

You know what the difference is between a gaffer and a grip?

crl

I've reached my daily google quota too

Mitch

14:49

One of them takes the dishes out before he pees in the sink

crl

I heard it's bad to pee in the sink, because those water aren't treated the same way

Kit Z. Fox

Pee is pretty clean.

Pre-filtered.

Unless you have a problem with your plumbing.

Mitch

Hm...I think the plumbing goes to the same place.

Kit Z. Fox

Ours doesn't.

crl

@Mitch ah possible.

Mitch

14:51

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Can you google that for us? does sink and shower outgo have separate lines to toilet outgo?

Kit Z. Fox

Greywater goes out differently than sewage.

Also, can you ask what type of doctor I should see if I want to do something about exercise-induced asthma?

crl

:))

Mitch

if you have sewer lines out on the street, they, if starting out differently, still end up in the same place.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm starting to worry I might have some kind of heart problem.

@Mitch We have septic.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox still doesn't go to same place?

crl

14:52

@KitZ.Fox what's your rest heart-rate?

Kit Z. Fox

@crl I don't know. Something like 67 bpm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I don't have to google, I already know. It depends on the region.

crl

(e.g. in the bed before sleeping or after)

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Some places have storm sewers and sewage sewers, others have storm, sewage, and grey water sewers

Kit Z. Fox

14:53

@Mitch Ours doesn't. It goes out into the leechfield or whatever. Sewage goes into the septic tank.

crl

@KitZ.Fox ah it's good so, not high

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox hm... interesting.

@KitZ.Fox Oh.

Kit Z. Fox

It's not my heart rate I'm worried about. I feel like I have irregular heartbeat occasionally.

crl

the sceptic tank

oh.. you'd need to muscle your heart a bit maybe, some endurance sport

Kit Z. Fox

And I've been sighing a lot and feeling like I'm forgetting to breathe sometimes. I don't think I have sleep apnea, but I do think I have something going on with my lungs.

Mitch

14:55

@KitZ.Fox do you snore?

crl

I never snored (yet) well I think, can't be sure

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I don't think so.

Mitch

I wonder if fish have breathing problems with their gills.

crl

or even just do some relaxation, stretching, etc..

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Yes, they do.

Mitch

14:59

like if the water they hang out in is dirty, does it clog up the gills.

gotta run

crl

gotta eat some vegs

Mitch

Now walking instead

crl

Now sitting instead

I guess in the future we'll build legos virtually

Mitch

15:17

Standing just in case

@crl uh... That's mine craft already, right?

crl

never played it :/, looks like it yes

Kit Z. Fox

15:40

In The Future, There Will Be Robots.

Mitch

Robot surgery is really robot assisted surgery

But a lot of car manufacture can be unattended robots

MετάEd

16:08

Kit Z. Fox

haha

Cerberus

16:35

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Another reason is that killing large numbers of civilians can theoretically destroy the enemy's morale. The Brits and, to a lesser extent, the Germans and the Americans tried that in WWII. There seems to be consensus that it did not work at all.

MετάEd

16:55

Eat some chocolate. It'll help.

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox the definition of modern dance

MετάEd

17:22

@MattE.Эллен One and all they're not chancing / What we used to call dancing / They're busy doing choreography.

Matt E. Эллен

@MετάEd I dance to my own rules

question_asker

jakes!

Mitch

17:41

I drum to my own blueprints

Mazura

17:53

What's the difference between cite, source, reference, and attribute as they pertain to posting at SE?

E.g., these comments on my answer.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you have a greywater pipe it should be indicated with purple tape or paint.

Mitch

18:13

@Mazura attribution, and they're about the same. A link (and description of) to a source

Mazura

Wait, that's reclaimed water: "Purple pipe should not convey anything other than municipally treated reclaimed water." –PDF Not sure what the outgoing's color is supposed to be.

@Mitch Hmm. Ok, so only link stands alone in this context?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mazura where I'm from we don't have greywater pipes. Just storm and sewage.

@Cerberus Presumably you'd need to kill a sufficient fraction, enough to counteract the rage that such actions would incur.

Mazura

Bad form aside, was my attribution incorrect when I cited Google?

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Mazura Which did you choose? Water, air, fire, or wood?

Mazura

Wood, ofc.

Matt E. Эллен

18:26

@Mazura well, only in so far as Google didn't write your definition, so you're citing someone who is copypasting someone else. I don't know how big of a problem it is in reality

Mazura

@Demisemihemidemisemiquaver One of these things doesn't belong here...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mazura I'm not sure it's really that big a problem.

The "Google might change their links" business is a red herring. All dictionaries are prone to changing their links.

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver

@Mazura Wood was considered an olden element (for some reason)

Matt E. Эллен

Google must have permission to do the copy pasting, it's not like Oxford Dictionaries are poor

Mazura

I'm citing my source. Considering the fact that Google doesn't disclose where they go it either...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As is SE. By Design.

Matt E. Эллен

18:28

@Mazura yeah, that's really frustrating. I don't know why they don't

Mazura

You know what's not going to change... my answer ;)

2

Matt E. Эллен

fair enough.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mazura I think it's fine. Is Google the best source? No. But it IS a source, at least in this case.

I'd argue that it's at least as good as the lower-end dictionaries out there in terms of number of definitions and showing etymology and stuff.

Mitch

@Mazura Don't let facts get in the way of your opinions.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But google does link to other sources, like online dictionaries. So I think it is better to go for the primary link to those dictionaries rather than Google.

Also, quote in your answer. Always give a link/URL, a description of the source (a minimal bibliographic citation "OED", and a quote from the source in case the link gets broken.

Cerberus

18:43

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like an entire neighbourhood? They did all that.

I believe the Americans killed 100,000 people in Tokyo in a single night's air raid.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Google doesn't always link to its sources in its dictionary tool.

@Cerberus That's pretty demoralizing.

Cerberus

And the Brits burned down many German towns in their entirety, and most of Berlin.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Apparently, it wasn't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus oh Tokyo. I misread, thought you were referring to the nukes.

Mazura

Dresden comes to mind.

Cerberus

People kept fighting.

Nope.

Yes, Dresden.

Mazura

18:45

Nukes got nothing a fleet of B52s with incendiary bombs.

Cerberus

The atomic bombs killed fewer people than died during that single night in Tokyo. And it wasn't the only night that they bombarded the city...

question_asker

man killing people just totally rules I guess

Mazura

It was an easy way out for the emperor, nothing more. Look up the plans for the invasion... .45s for everyone, Tommy's, and orders to lay waste.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh...but usually it is pretty obvious in the first few dictionary links where it really got its definitions from.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Sometimes.

Cerberus

18:49

@Mazura Not entirely sure what you mean.

Mitch

No one complains about Napoleon

Or Baked Alaska.

question_asker

...

Cerberus

Doesn't one?

Mitch

@Cerberus Which side destroyed Rotterdam?

Cerberus

The Germans.

Mitch

18:52

@Cerberus One is terribly hard to pin down on these things.

The Germans didn't destroy Paris. That was pretty nice of them.

question_asker

how thoughtful

ELU chat: "actually, the Nazis didn't destroy everything so uh don't be so quick to judge"

Cerberus

@Mitch But only 900 people were killed in Rotterdam. It was terrible, but other bombings were much worse.

Mazura

@Cerberus Ok, you're right. What really 'stopped' them was Russia's signing of [something] that said they'd be on board with an invasion. (what I mean is why Japan surrendered)

Cerberus

@Mitch I believe Hitler actually tried to destroy Paris, or at least many important monuments, when the Germans were about to be driven out, but his generals prevented it.

@Mazura You're saying Japan didn't surrender because of the atomic bombs?

Mazura

No.

They didn't do anything that wasn't already happening: Dresden; Tokyo.

Cerberus

18:57

The new way was quicker.

Mazura

And "an easy [honorable?] way out."

Cerberus

I'd be more likely to surrender if I knew that the enemy could destroy all of my important cities in one night, with just a handful of aeroplanes.

Matt E. Эллен

19:12

What will settle the next world war? Black hole generators? Maybe people will realise it's the governments inciting them, not the other way around, and just not take up arms.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:25

@MattE.Эллен that only works if both sides do it

Mazura

@Cerberus You will surrender to anyone besides the Russians who experienced somewhere between 30~50 million casualties. They were pissed off.

The war was going to end in 1945, one way or another.

Cerberus

But it would have been quite unpleasant for the Allies if it had had to end in an invasion of Japan, or in a peace where Japan could rebuild its army (see the Interbellum).

Konaras

20:06

Hi all. Would anyone with better English than mine please clarify to me whether i should say "This player lost." or "This player has lost." when pointing out an outcome of a game.

Mazura

@Konaras - I think the only difference is tense, if even. But all that 'present perfect' stuff is beyond me.

@Cerberus Once an invasion starts and achieves landfall, there's no going back from occupation. It would've been quite unpleasant for all parties.

MετάEd

21:13

@MattE.Эллен HAHAHAHAHA. Heh. Uh. Except of course that's not funny.

Matt E. Эллен

@MετάEd black hole generators it is! I'll get to work on one post-haste

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I guess we better get to spreading kindness pretty quickly then

Mitch

21:28

@MattE.Эллен Only used once

Cerberus

@Mazura Yes. And now there was no real invasion.

@Konaras This player has lost is better, but this player lost is acceptable.

The thing is, you're focusing on the result of the losing, the current situation in which he has lost. The present perfect (has lost) is usually most appropriate when you're talking about a present situation that is the result of something that happened in the past.

But tenses are vague and fickle.

Mazura

@Mitch I'm still mulling that over. What do you mean by "facts" ?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch someone accidentally unwrapped it and they couldn't get it back in the packet. now we can't return it. maybe we can sell it on ebay

tchrist

@Mazura He means feats of derring do.

Cerberus

@Mazura I think that was a random joke.

MετάEd

21:45

@MattE.Эллен I couldn't get the wrapping out of the product.

Mazura

@Cerberus It's still flying way over my head.

Matt E. Эллен

@MετάEd hit it with a wave of hawking radiation, that should loosen it up

Cerberus

@Mazura I'm not sure I understand it entirely, but I suspect it was not meant to be specific to you and your answer—just an opportunity to say "don't let facts get in the way of your opinions", unless you and he have talked about this particular answer before.

Mazura

Perhaps it was meant to be continually mulled over. Either way, I shall attempt to do so.

Cerberus

Bonne chance.

There are Americans standing underneath my window talking, and it's almost midnight...

Mazura

21:56

"These bourgeois Americans waiting for their packages.... They can wait. Hey Yuri! Don't smush package!"

"Iz OK. I use van for rock and roll bant"

^^ A DHL commercial that I can't find ;\

Slavic accents make English so much more funny.

Anonymous

23:16

Hello! I just joined EL&U and ELL chat and I see Hitler chat in both of them.

Anonymous

@MattE.Эллен I was told Google licensed the ODE/NOAD content, so they don't need to give attribution.

Anonymous

But I always cite dictionaries by name, not by the website where I found their definitions quoted.

Anonymous

@Mazura Linking to a Google search for a definition is always a mistake.

Anonymous

Google search results are individualized.

Anonymous

I have Google set to Japanese, so I can't see ODE/NOAD dictionary entries in my search results.

Anonymous

23:24

On the other hand, if you link to oxforddictionaries.com, you can assume your link will work for everyone.

Anonymous

It's not just a matter of Google search results changing over time, but of those results being completely different from person to person.

Mazura

That's why I asked what the difference between all those words are, because I'm going to have a hard time phrasing why I don't care and why I do this.

I believe in sourcing, I could care less about attribution; someone's named attached.

The important part is the information. I have to cite it because otherwise it's plagiarism.

Also, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Find it yourself and confirm. Same thing I do with Wiki cites: I cite Wiki. It's your job to vet their sources, not mine.

... Also, English being a liquid language, it will change. And the fastest way to see that is when Google changes their preferred definition. If Google ever goes down the world is over, so who cares.

Anonymous

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

Anonymous

Google doesn't re-license new dictionaries all the time.

Anonymous

And it's your responsibility to give people good information if you're going to give them information at all.

Anonymous

23:39

Sure, you can say people shouldn't believe what you write on the internet, but that doesn't really make it a good idea not to put effort into giving people good information in the first place.

Anonymous

Otherwise, why post anything at all?

Mazura

Because I was right ;)

Anonymous

It seems we are unable to successfully communicate.

Mazura

"Any dictionary is "not a stable reference" in that their link structure can change and the information presented at a particular page can change. That's why our policy is to avoid link-only answers, but this isn't a link-only answer. It includes the definition here so that future readers don't need to go any further than this page in order to get their answer." –Mr. Shiny and New

A lot of effort went into that post. I answered 3 or 4 different questions in it.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…