English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

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Yannik K.

22:02

@Mitch ^

Mitch

@YannikK. World languages have lots of examples of the 'double negative' used to mark a single negation (not two logical negations eliminating to make a positive. French has 'ne...pas' two pieces that together make one negation.

Yannik K.

@Mitch but it would have the same meaning if i would omit one "no" in the 2nd example ?

Mitch

For some varieties of English (mostly regional, non-standard, like Southern US or AAVE or Estuary), two word forms are used to make a single negation. "I ain't no hollaback girl" = in standard English "I am not a cheerleader"

@YannikK. It would be ungrammatical in those varieties that have the double negative.

"I ain't hollaback girl" is never said/wrong (in all varieties that use 'ain't that I know of)

Yannik K.

@Mitch ungrammatical, how come if it isnt standard english

Mitch

Most of such varieties do allow "I ain't a hollaback girl"

@YannikK. I did not understand that sentence.

Yannik K.

22:12

How can it be ungrammatical, like you said, if it is not standard english xD

And why is it false to say "My mama didnt raise a fool"

Mitch

@YannikK. That was a full grammatical sentence but I now do not understand what you mean.

@YannikK. One can say 'grammatically (in that variety) "My mama didn't raise a fool" and also "My mama didn't raise no fool". I just said that 5 lines ago.

Yannik K.

Okay. So double negative means ALWAYS equates to intensifying the negation ?

Mitch

@YannikK. Not intensifying, just plain saying one.

but yes, only in those varieties. (usually marked by allowing 'ain't')

Yannik K.

Ah okay. Maybe i should have read the wikipedia article before.

Quote: "Languages where multiple negatives affirm each other are said to have negative concord. Portuguese, English, Persian, Russian, Spanish, Neapolitan and Italian are examples of negative-concord languages, while Latin and German do not have negative concord."

I also learned latin in school, where double negative == positive. And in german its not used at all.

Mitch

In German do you ever use two negatives to mean a positive?

Yannik K.

22:24

Nope, as I said we only use one negative to negote sth.

Mitch

Or an understatement. Das ist nicht uninteressant.

@YannikK. and you can't do anything more complicated?

Yannik K.

What do u mean by more complicated ?

Mitch

Multiple negatives are allowed in standard English and even numbers of them cancel logically.

@YannikK. oops! typo! fixed!

Or you get litotes

Yannik K.

Oookay. Well, to be honest, someone would rarely say "Das ist nicht uninteressant" in german. Rather just simple "Das ist interessant".

Yeah, statements like „Er hat damit nicht unrecht“ or „nicht übel“ are often used in german.

We also say often "Nicht schlecht" (= not bad) instead of "Gut" (= good)

Well in these examples german seems to behave like english but in my first examples it does not behave that way in german

Mitch

It is not an uncommon figure of speech in English. You'll find that it ...

"The use of litotes is common in English, Russian, German, Dutch, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Ukrainian and French. It is a feature of Old English poetry and of the Icelandic sagas and is a means of much stoical restraint.[8]"

Yannik K.

22:33

Oh, sorry just looked over the examples and did not read the description text.

Mitch

(but I can't really judge if that's right or not)

Explicit double negation is one way of doing it. "I am not going to not do something" means I'll do it (or as a litotes means I deny that I'll fail to do something) Negations can be grammatical or semantically implicit.

Yannik K.

Well, I am happy that I do not chose to study any language or smth. Not really my cup of tea :D

Mitch

Well, you've studied English pretty succesfully

Yannik K.

22:49

Well, maybe in written form, mainly because as a student of computer science many sources are in english, but for speaking good english, i had to speak english daily.