English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Lawrence

02:27

@KitZ.Fox (Catching up on chat - apologies if this is already resolved.) Possibly a comparison of paper, with leaves inappropriately attempting to reference his product as the implied subject: his paper (retains) no ink (that is otherwise) evident on thin and flimsy paper. This might make sense in the context of ink blots.

Lawrence

02:51

@DeltaEscher For disambiguation, I suppose.

SmokeDetector

03:05

[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating characters in answer: What is the word for "other people's thinking"? by shdwdrgn on english.stackexchange.com …

Færd

04:53

@Cerberus @snailboat I slept on it and then tried to pull my thoughts together into a Q&A. Would appreciate any feedback on the answer or further replies to the question.

0

Q: "It was the kind of story that / where you had to be there." -- Are the relative pronouns 'where' and 'that' interchangeable?

Consider this exchange: A: Your story wasn't funny at all. B: Maybe it was the kind of story where you had to be there. I encountered something like that a few days ago, and wondered if the relative pronoun where could be replaced with that: ?Maybe it was the kind of story that yo...

And sorry I turned all idiot on you last night...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: Is "fair-skinned" politically correct? by Blairgirl on english.stackexchange.com …

crl

05:58

@Mitch :p as a cyrillic

Hi bad website

stack

07:24

"way off" means "no" or "yes"?

- is still sex out of table?
- way off

PhMgBr

07:42

@stack If your answer is way off, you're too far from the right answer.

stack

07:53

:D

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

the target is the right answer and you are "way off" from that answer

means: "no"

stack

09:51

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ ah ok

stack

Should I do that by other way

or

Should I do that in other way

Which one?

Matt E. Эллен

neither.

Should I do that the other way?

stack

oh. ok thx

PhMgBr

@MattE.Эллен Yes.

Do it the other way

stack

ok

Matt E. Эллен

09:55

does it the other way

Matt E. Эллен

10:10

@stack I'm assuming there is only one other way. If there is potentially more than two ways to do something you'd ask "Should I do that some other way" or "another way", because the is the definite article, so it means there is only one other way

skill patrol

Should I do that

the other way

(in) another way

some other way

Matt E. Эллен

"should I do that another way" is fine. there's no need for in, although that is grammatical

skill patrol

he's gone anyway

Matt E. Эллен

likewise you could, if you wanted, add in with the or some: "Should I do that in some other way"

@skillpatrol ah. oh well :D

skill patrol

@MattE.Эллен I was just going to edit that in

another way :-)

Matt E. Эллен

10:18

I don't care what way you do it, just any other way than this

skill patrol

your way or the highway?

Matt E. Эллен

@skillpatrol just not your way :p

skill patrol

:P

Matt E. Эллен

@stack if you're learning about prepositions, then in pairs with way when talking about how to do things, but usually there is a determiner (e.g. the, some, a) between the preposition and the noun. "in the milk", "by that method", "in some way" when the noun is singular

you can skip the determiner for plurals, and with uncountables too. "on horses"

"in milk"

also when talking about things that could be considered plural or singular, like companies. "At Apple they don't wear ties."

as always, it's complicated and there are lots of exceptions

johnchae

12:05

Hi

MετάEd

12:46

Mornin.

Matt E. Эллен

14:20

QWERTY rules our lives!

newscientist.com/article/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wow that seems like total nonsense

question_asker

not really

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

did they test their theory on any dvorak users?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like much of social psychology...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@question_asker You're saying it makes sense that the way words are typed affects how people feel about them?!?

question_asker

14:25

I'm saying that the conclusion is in line with a lot of similar work on the way language influences people

I'm not saying it's particularly interesting, though

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus that's not really social psychology. it's not about the behaviour of groups as related to individuals. that's cognitive linguistic psychology, if I had to pigeon hole it

Cerberus

@question_asker Much of which is speculative or nonsense, though. Consider the Lana/lawyer paper.

question_asker

aha, the old "social psychology is nonsense" canard

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен All right, I'll rephrase that to "much of non-clinical psychology".

question_asker

fantastic stuff

Cerberus

14:27

> Other researchers who have studied the effect have suggested that the association may stem from the fact that words consisting of letters from the right of the keyboard are easier to type – given that there are fewer letters on that side for the right hand to cover.

Baron offers another possibility. The vowel sounds associated with letters on the right-hand side of the keyboard – “y”, “u”, “i” and “o” – are known to be linked with positive words and meanings. It could be that the sounds of the words, rather than the letters in them, are the key factor, she says. “We don’t put emotions in…

Even these two alternative explanations seem to make somewhat more sense.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@question_asker yeah except that most of it is. The experiments are frequently just crap. Sample sizes too small. Test subjects all university students. no control for cultural bias.

question_asker

lol

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Let me rephrase that again: I'm sure there's also some good research being done. And part of the blame lies with newspapers, who exaggerate the claims. But still: one cannot trust certain kinds of psychology the same way one can trust e.g. chemistry or mediaeval history.

PhMgBr

Yeah, you should trust chemistry alright

question_asker

I can trust chemistry more than I can trust medieval history

"...part of the blame lies with newspapers, who exaggerate the claims." absolutely.

Cerberus

14:30

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And two more factors: 1. often the observed effect is tiny, while the conclusions make bold claims. 2. They usually don't offer a robust, scientifically tested explanation of how the effect works, which i.m.o. makes the statistical correlation far less meaningful and useful.

@question_asker Why can't you trust mediaeval history?

It is a sound discipline, in my experience.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I recall a study once where they tried to prove that pink is a girl's colour and blue is a boy's colour because of genetics.

Cerberus

Haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It was so. fucking. stupid.

question_asker

yes that is undeniably stupid

Cerberus

That sounds much like the Lana/lawyer paper.

question_asker

14:32

@Cerberus It depends on who is writing the history, and what their biases are

Cerberus

The mere fact that you can find a statistic correlation is but step 1, it doesn't mean you have found something meaningful or useful.

question_asker

I mean, "history" is notoriously untrustworthy, broadly stated

Cerberus

Untrustworthy how?

History makes very few positive claims.

question_asker

...

PhMgBr

@question_asker Well, don't trust the judgement. Trust the facts.

question_asker

14:34

is that a joke question?

"facts"

Cerberus

No.

question_asker

I mean, I can state some "facts" that will probably sound like facts to you.

but which are, in fact, entirely fictitious and only serve to promote my agenda

Cerberus

And?

question_asker

...

PhMgBr

@question_asker You're seeing a lot of conspiracy where there's none.

question_asker

14:36

"conspiracy" lol

Cerberus

You don't seem to be interested in a real discussion.

Historians don't claim to have "facts".

That is entirely unscientific and counter to the historical discipline.

question_asker

"Trust the facts." - you, mere seconds ago

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@question_asker no that was PhMgBr

question_asker

Sorry

PhMgBr

@question_asker That was me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:37

@PhMgBr jinx

PhMgBr

And well, maybe I should start defining "fact".

I don't care anymore.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The thing is, any scientific field can be distorted by bad practice, I think we can all agree

Cerberus

A historical paper will provide all the evidence that it uses. It will then give all its arguments in detail, leading to an interpretation.

question_asker

I mean, look. It's uncontroversial to say that European-written history is full of questionable-to-outright-false claims

Cerberus

How so?

Not serious, academic history.

And, again: historians don't claim facts.

They present evidence, argumentation, and conclusions, for any reader to study.

A paper may reach a conclusion that you disagree with. That's fine. The essence of the paper is not about the conclusion, but about the argumentation and the evidence.

And the conclusion is not to be taken as a claim of "fact".

question_asker

14:40

lol

Cerberus

I suggest that you read a few serious papers on mediaeval history and read a bit more about the development of the discipline of history between 1780 and 2000.

question_asker

If I'm being accused of 'not being interested in a real discussion' because I don't want to regurgitate the world's corpus of historiography to someone who is making broad (and naive!) claims about some standard that nonspecific historians supposedly all perfectly cleave to, then fine, you're right, I don't have the energy or time for that nor do I suppose anyone here does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

let's be honest. neither of you is baking up your claims with evidence, so this is really just throwing opinions around.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 @RegDwigнt farm2.staticflickr.com/1468/26602739112_f326c5ff71_h.jpg

Cerberus

@question_asker No, you are saying things like "lol" and "I mean, look. It's uncontroversial to say that European-written history is full of questionable-to-outright-false claims". That doesn't really help in a discussion, it is indirect and it doesn't really address what your interlocutor has said.

I have to go anyway.

question_asker

14:45

zzzzz

Cerberus

Again.

question_asker

I thought you had to go?

PhMgBr

@question_asker Sorry to be blunt, but this attitude comes off as a bit close to trolling.

2

Cerberus

I repeat: academic historians are not about making claims of fact; the essence of a paper is not its conclusion, but the evidence and its interpretation, the argumentation.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 troll vs troll

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:46

@MattE.Эллен heh. I mean, it's fine if both parties are okay with that but not so good when they accuse each other of not arguing properly.

question_asker

@PhMgBr like I said above - this isn't really something I can just type out into a chat box - if you don't believe that the canon of western history is ... imperfect, to say the least, then... you haven't really read enough history.

PhMgBr

@question_asker Please show us something that is perfect.

question_asker

You're right, I don't really want to go through what modern academics have been saying for ages, here, in a chatroom. Good work, you proved that I don't have infinite energy.

PhMgBr

If you think a science like chemistry is perfect, I'm pretty ready to surprise you.

Cerberus

We could have a civilized, constructive discussion about that some day.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:48

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 That is awesome

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It's dripping, even!

@MattE.Эллен Are you calling me a troll? Look at your own green face!

Or is that more orkish.

question_asker

@PhMgBr I didn't say it was perfect, though I understand what you mean there - it's certainly closer to being what I'd call "reliable" than the western historical canon, is all.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I'm an Orc :þ

Cerberus

Grrrr.

Matt E. Эллен

Orcs are meta-trolls. we troll about trolls trolling

question_asker

14:50

haha

Cerberus

Makes sense.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

from the same builder as the pizza

Also this:

PhMgBr

Gotta admit, it's a pretty fun hobby.

Not as fun as reading books you don't understand though.

Mitch

15:13

@MattE.Эллен You're just shamelessly prodding for a response.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am backing up a cake as we speak. Flour all over the keyboard, doncha know.

question_asker

cake redundancy

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I just won't accept half-baked arguments.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't care how much people seem to like it, cookie dough is just plain wrong.

also a salmonella concern

question_asker

some would call that trolling

me, I call it reasonable

Mitch

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

►

question_asker

15:23

I never once used that word

or any words, for that matter

Mitch

On the other hand, icing a cake is incontrovertible

or inconsequential

depending on context

or am i thinking of frosting?

question_asker

icing in the old-timey gangster sense

that cake sleeps with the fishes now

Lawrence

Fishcake ... that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. :)

Mitch

I Sing The Body Electric- Fame

►

question_asker

I've never seen fish at a protest

Matt E. Эллен

15:27

@Mitch I feel ashamed you'd think that

question_asker

this is all making me hungry for frosted fish

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен my work is done.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch ah! so you're unemployed

Mitch

!!

:o

Matt E. Эллен

or as MarkyMark likes to call it: you're a housewife

Mitch

15:30

:O

Kit Z. Fox

15:45

I'm listening to 10 hours of "OMFG I Love You" followed by 10 hours of "What is Love?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox Still can't think of that song without also thinking of gay porn.

Kit Z. Fox

I think of that story every time too. Plus I exaggerate the details and make it my friend instead of your coworker.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heh

"gay porn" is a bit of an exaggeration too. It wasn't porn, just dating site pics, some of them pretty risque or outright nude. But not really porn.

Kit Z. Fox

16:32

So I did something awful to my shoulder/neck muscles. I can't get relief. Do you happen to know any magic for that?

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Is it general soreness in the area or a stabby pain? Does it change with moving your head/arm or mostly the same with movement?

MετάEd

@KitZ.Fox Anti-inflammatory, heat, lots of fluids.

Kit Z. Fox

It feels like regular muscle strain, but periodically I'm getting falling-asleep tingles or pinchiness into my elbow and pinkie on that side.

Like probably a muscle spasm.

Heat and massage made it worse the first day (this is day three).

Ice helps. Ibuprofen helps some.

But even with both of those, I can't seem to get comfortable.

ArtOfCode

@KitZ.Fox there are creams designed for muscle strains; try those. Worked for me when I did my shoulder last year.

Mitch

depends on how bad. if it gets worse, doctor. could probably be relieved by PT, anti-inflammatory.

Whatever it is, WebMD will tell you you're going to die.

Kit Z. Fox

16:45

@ArtOfCode Oh true. I forgot I have some kind of blue stuff from last year. I'll give that a try when I get home.

ArtOfCode

blue stuff eh? Sounds healthy.

Kit Z. Fox

At least I can still get drunk tonight if I use that stuff. I have a hot date.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox vick's vaporub?

Matt E. Эллен

woo!

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Maybe, but branded differently.

Mitch

16:50

@KitZ.Fox I'm pretty sure that you can get drunk off of it directly.

cut out the middle man so to speak

Shafizadeh

17:39

"how can I set a default for function's parameter?"

or

"how can I set a default as function's parameter?"

?

question_asker

I would say "How can I set a default for a function's parameter?", if I understand you correctly

Shafizadeh

yes correct. thx

user183836

18:22

What do you all think here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/322534/…

user183836

18:37

I don't understand what HotLicks is saying here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/322534/…

user183836

We can't ask about idiomatic uses of words?

PhMgBr

@Dawn No, you can. But you can't ask about technical jargon.

user183836

That wasn't a problem in the original question.

user183836

5

Q: Why is "violated" being used as future perfect with a person as the object?

On Aviation StackExchange, I've seen these: I don't think you will be violated.. He was subsequently violated... Pilot [...] may now be violated for it. ... pilots have been violated... It seems in all of these cases "violated" is being used where I would have used "found in violation of reg...

verbs idioms terminology future-perfect

MετάEd

Of course you can ask about technical jargon. HotLicks is not saying the question itself is out of bounds.

user183836

18:38

And the answer found a definition in the OED

user183836

Maybe I've phrased the question poorly

user183836

I'm not an English major

MετάEd

HotLicks is saying the unusual meaning of "violate" is only known or understood within a small subset of the population.

user183836

Yeah, and I'm wondering whether that type of idiomatic "inversion" (what I'm calling it) has a name

MετάEd

It's an interesting question.

user183836

18:40

he/she just yelled at me and shut down my question

MετάEd

The question doesn't look closed to me.

user183836

I mean, metaphorically.... like telling me that i can't talk about meaning outside of the community that uses the word that way

user183836

that kind of "shut down"

user183836

like cut off discussion

MετάEd

@Dawn I understood HotLicks to be saying the meaning has no existence outside of the community ... not that you can't talk about this subject.

user183836

18:44

@MετάEd I don't claim that it does. I'm asking if that jargon/idiomatic inversion has a name and as an aside, if there are other examples of this kind of inversion

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The question seems fine to me but it's difficult to understand because it seems to rely on one example that is restricted to jargon contexts, and one example that is made up.

user183836

How can I improve it?

MετάEd

@Dawn I'm sure I have seen one or two other examples, but I cannot seem to beat them out of my head.

user183836

I can't come up with other examples, because I don't know what term to use to search for them :P

MετάEd

@Dawn Have some chocolate. It helps.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:45

@Dawn I'd suggest expanding the meaning of "violate" meaning "to be in violation", including the definition from the answer from the other question, and spell it out in full that this is a special usage. Then, if you have to rely on the made-up example, indicate that it is made up.

would "she was drunk" be an example of the same thing you're looking for?

user183836

oh maybe!

user183836

I will drink <-> I will be drunk

user183836

it's not quite the same

question_asker

That is really a bizarre case

the violation thing

like somebody tried to apply 'a citation' -> 'write out a citation' -> 'cite' to the word violation

MετάEd

It's jargon, to be sure.

question_asker

18:52

Yeah

Yeah I have certainly never heard or otherwise come across anyone using it outside of a LE context

user183836

I've seen it on meme signs

question_asker

(especially since the verb form in question here has a very different, very distinct meaning outside of that context; I'd venture to say that (non-LE) context meaning is infinitely more prevalent)

as in, I think the vast majority of people would be extremely confused if presented with it in the LE context

MετάEd

what-if.xkcd.com/11

question_asker

poops

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:17

@Dawn yeah, it's close though. The drink is drunk, the person is drunk... the person drinks the drink and is drunk. The pilot violates the rule and is violated.

user183836

19:29

I don't get why it is so important to HotLicks that this usage is not standard. I think everyone agrees that it's non-standard.

user183836

Is there a way that I can ask this question that avoids putting so much attention on this non-standard usage?

user183836

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'll try your approach to fixing the question.

ritwik sinha

LOL. Now i joined a chat channel especially for english enthusiasts and my english is shit.

skill patrol

welcome?

ritwik sinha

hi

anyone

skill patrol

19:34

hello

question_asker

hello

Mitch

19:53

@Dawn don't worry about it. We all get into our own intense questions sometimes. My reading of the situation is that he didn't realize the context you were asking in (the aviators weird usage) it wasn't so clear to me either.

@ritwiksinha just because we're enthusiastic doesn't mean we're good at it.

question_asker

I'm neither!

Mitch

Good!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Dawn I think the question is clearer now after your edit. Upon reflection, I'm not sure the phenomenon will have a name... it seems to be pretty rare.

The pilot violated the rule -> The rule was violated, but also the pilot was violated.

question_asker

I would love to see more examples of that, if there are some

it struck me as mega-idiosyncratic but I wouldn't be surprised if there are other situations it appears

...in.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wouldn't be surprised if there are other examples, but it seems like it must be a rare case

question_asker

19:59

yeah

Mitch

@Dawn hit licks did not shut down the discussion. He did bold 'not'. That's just emphasis. About a smallish point. Which you shouldn't worry about.

question_asker

also I gotta say: as much as I understand this particular example and what it is meant to mean, I can't keep reading it without getting really uncomfortable.

Mitch

My suggestions for labels for this are: 'error' 'passive dysvalence' 'subject-object-agent confusion' 'sub categorization reassignment' or some permutation combination of any or all. As to a single word, that's hardly ever going to happen.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@question_asker likewise. It just seems wrong.

question_asker

at the risk of getting ~political~, it doesn't surprise me that this is a formulation that cops would use

Mitch

20:05

To your general point, I wouldn't be surprised if this is more common in the worlds languages. There's probably something in Latin (@Cerberus?)

Ablative absolute? No that's for nouns

Hortative? Nope that's for commands right?

user183836

@Mitch Whatever, he/she kept saying that I can't ask about this because they don't mean the same thing, then when I pointed out the other answer, he/she changed to "okay they mean the same thing but only in that jargon context", then when he/she said that this isn't a new definition and I said that the other answer said it was, he/she said that "well, it's marked as slag" (as if slang definitions aren't definitions)... it's like anything I say about this has to be countered or refuted by hotlick

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@question_asker It wouldn't surprise me if this sort of thing appeared in places where a label gets attached to something to indicate a thing, but the name of the label gets associated with the labelling.

user183836

I don't know what the point of that was, it made me feel like there are some unknown rules I was breaking regarding adhering to prescriptive definitions

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And I feel like there's an example there...

user183836

even said that it wasn't "proper english"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:09

Parole violations -> label the offender as "violated", label becomes verb, offender is "violated".... I swear there's another example like this that I cannot recall.

something like "John set off the alarm" -> "John alarmed"

Mitch

Deponent verbs

That's the word for it.

user183836

oooh

user183836

nice

Mitch

'violate' has an alternate usage both regular nad then in this technical jargon, a deponent syntax

so it is a thing but no mention of it in English.

It reminds me of 'I miss you' in Romance Languages. They say, eg 'tu me manques' literally 'you miss me' to mean 'I miss you'.

@Dawn I'll write up an answer

user183836

Thanks!

Mitch

20:29

0

A: Does the "she was found in violation of..." <-> "she was violated" equivalence have a name?

The phenomenon and label of the change is one thing, and the result is labeled another thing. In the specific community (of aviation; I don't think I've heard this at all before so I'm assuming it is limited to here), it is simply a change in syntax accompanied by semantic drift. The result, w...

Mitch

20:39

@Dawn I think he just wanted to be right

user183836

well, I did too I guess :P

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I thought it was pretty cool :)

Damkerng T.

Ah, you're in here. I probably didn't have to post my comment. :-) @Dawn

Anyway, your question makes me think of diathesis alternations. Now, the problem is I don't know them through and through.

MετάEd

3

A: Does the "she was found in violation of..." <-> "she was violated" equivalence have a name?

I think it’s an example of zero derivation. This means deriving one word from another while bypassing the usual derivation rule that involves adding a prefix or suffix. To illustrate zero derivation, here is an example from the exploding penguin sketch: Oh, intercourse the penguin. [Emphasis ...

I'd really like to have John Lawler look at this answer.

Because I can't actually find any examples of "zero derivation" being used to describe coining a verb from a verb.

sumelic

1

A: American refusal of the IPA: why?

Likely because IPA is a joke. In a standard non translation dictionary (i.e. not french to english) the native english speaker is using the book to conferm spelling and look up meaning. Accent is not a consideration. While written english is non phonetic compared with alphabets that use visual ac...

MετάEd

20:54

Also I should really calculate the lawler weight of the answer.

user183836

21:22

seems like hotlicks has support for that way of responding to me

Faheem Mitha

What is an economical way to say that the walls of a room are tiled with ceramic tiles?

The walls are ceramic tiled sounds a little clunky.

user183836

21:39

"the ceramic-tiled walls..."

user183836

"The walls are tiled with ceramic."

ArtOfCode

the walls are ceramically tiled ;)

MετάEd

@Dawn I find the best way to handle a challenge of that nature is to disengage. And, if it clearly crosses over into hostility, flag it. A.k.a. "do not feed the troll."

Damkerng T.

@FaheemMitha The walls are of ceramic tiles?

Faheem Mitha

22:03

@DamkerngT. Well, the walls are covered with ceramic tiles.

Damkerng T.

If you found it in any book you'd assume so, I think. ;-)

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…