English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MετάEd

17:04

Alacrity. Ooooooooh. I never made that connection.

Cerberus

You'd enjoy learning Latin.

skill patrol

What connection?

Interestingly, Wikipedia offers an automatic citation option now.

MετάEd

@skillpatrol The Latin root.

skill patrol

Ok

Boris_yo

Hi there.

skill patrol

17:13

Hello

Boris_yo

I heard brain-dead people work in IRS. Is this true?

Oh well. Wrong chat room to discuss this :D

Is there a forum on Stack Exchange where I can vent about it?

MετάEd

@Boris_yo We're tolerant of random stuff here.

@Boris_yo There are several other SEs that might love to bash IRS. Law, Personal Finance, Freelancing to name a few.

Boris_yo

Hmm okay. Thank you. And of course I have English language related question.

"Leaves no ink evident on thin and flimsy paper" or "Leaves no ink evident with thin and flimsy paper"

question_asker

hmm

are you trying to say "unlike with thin and flimsy paper, [my thing] leaves no ink evident"? or "[my thing] doesn't leave any ink on thin and flimsy paper"? your first example reads more like the latter, but your second leads me to believe you mean the former

Boris_yo

First. It's a comparison and it's a fact about thin and flimsy paper.

question_asker

17:23

hmm

Kit Z. Fox

This pen leaves no ink evident on thin and flimsy paper. Applying the bleach with thin and flimsy paper leaves no ink evident.

It depends on what you are trying to say.

Either would be OK though, I think.

question_asker

yeah, what Kit said

Kit Z. Fox

Leaves nothing on something makes more sense to me unless you are using the paper to apply the ink.

Or something. But in any case, I would probably understand it and not think it sounded weird.

It sounds like a commercial.

question_asker

part of what is tripping me up is "evident" - are you not leaving ink on flimsy paper or are you not leaving ink, which would be evident, were it on flimsy paper?

Kit Z. Fox

yeah, I I assumed it was the former. The latter would require a comma.

Leaves no ink, evident on thin and flimsy paper. Hmm. Now I've confused myself.

question_asker

17:32

right?

it's kind of hurting my brain a little.

Færd

> it was just the kind of story where you had to be there.

Does this where seem natural to you?

Kit Z. Fox

yes

question_asker

yeah.

Færd

Well, doesn't that seem better instead?

question_asker

it doesn't feel "right" but it also is the only word I can think of that would go there.

Kit Z. Fox

17:36

It was just the kind of story that you had to be there to get.

Færd

Because story is not a where.

question_asker

right, exactly

Kit Z. Fox

No, there is where.

Anonymous

@Færd No

Færd

Um..

Kit Z. Fox

17:36

If you use that you have to explain the there.

Boris_yo

A pen with invisible ink which disappears on special paper but does not on thin and flimsy paper.

Færd

I'm not getting it.

question_asker

but "there" doesn't refer to the story, it refers to the place (spatial or temporal) in which the events of the story occur

What I'm saying (I guess) is that I'm with Færd here

Færd

Doesn't where you had to be there act like an adjective clause that describes story?

Kit Z. Fox

sure.

Færd

17:39

Okay, then how do you describe story with where?

Where describes places.

Kit Z. Fox

It's a story where you fly. It's a story where you run down to the store.

Mitch

i agree with Kit. If there's no 'there' then no need for 'where'

Færd

> I was at the place where you were.

Kit Z. Fox

It's like an "in which", I guess.

Mitch

or that too

Anonymous

17:40

@Færd That has a gap.

Mitch

'where' is very natural for me in all those instances.

Kit Z. Fox

It's the kind of thing where using "where" seems perfectly idiomatic.

Færd

@snailboat What kind of gap?

Anonymous

A gap in locative adjunct position.

Færd

@KitZ.Fox Okay then.

Anonymous

17:41

> place [ where you were ＿＿ ]

Færd

Ah.

Anonymous

You were there. → [ where you were ＿＿ ]

Anonymous

It's a relative clause.

Mitch

I was at the place [] you were at

Anonymous

Yeah, when the head noun strongly suggests a place you can generally use a bare relative.

Mitch

17:43

Yeah, when the head noun strongly suggests a place where you can generally use a bare relative.

Færd

Wow, so where doesn't act the same as the other conjunctions like which, who, etc.

Anonymous

> This is the web page [ where the claim was first made ＿＿ ] .

Mitch

those are conjunctions?

Anonymous

> *This is the web page [ the claim was first made ＿＿ ] .

Anonymous

@Mitch They are not.

Færd

17:44

@Mitch Not sure.

Anonymous

Web page doesn't fit into the subclass of nouns that strongly suggest a place, so you can't omit where.

Mitch

relative pronoun clause demonstrative somethety somethings

Boris_yo

"Compact to fit in most bags to accompany you in your travels" or "Compact to fit in most bags to accompany in your travels" hmmm. If I am talking about pen former would be right or latter? I don't want to create impression that it is bags that accompany you...

question_asker

yeah see, along Kit's line(s) above, I would consider it perfectly idiomatic to say "where" there, but I'd be hard pressed to explain it "logically", since story is nowise a place.

Færd

@snailboat And you can't use that instead too. Now I'm getting it.

Anonymous

17:46

Yabbut, that's nothing like our relative clause example.

question_asker

@Boris_yo Of the two you suggested, the former feels more correct

Anonymous

If you think it is, you'll need to explain where the gap in where you had to be there is.

Cerberus

Have you achieved consensus yet?

Anonymous

English relative clauses have either a gap (usually) or occasionally resumptive pronouns (but resumptive examples are unusual and are judged harshly).

Anonymous

Hello, @Cerberus! What are we trying to achieve consensus on?

Cerberus

17:51

@question_asker A story is a metaphorical place, which is why you can say in this story, the princess defeats the sorcerer. And generally in which can be replaced with where.

@snailboat I think on the where issue?

Færd

I'm trying to understand it.

Cerberus

> I work in a mine. The mine in which I work is dark. The mine where I work is dark.

Færd

@snailboat Ah, I guess now the penny dropped! With no there, that is okay; with there, where is okay.

@Cerberus Mhm.

Kit Z. Fox

@Boris_yo Compact to fit in most travel bags.

Færd

Thanks to all.

Cerberus

17:55

> Scheherazade was mentioned in a Persian story. The story in which she was mentioned is part of the stories of 1001 nights. The story where she is mentioned is quite entertaining.

Mitch

@Cerberus Where do you work? In a dark mine.

Delta Escher

0

A: Difference among Show as, Show with, and Show by

There is a difference between these sentences. 1 and 3 appear to be saying that you are showing the quantity using 'n' to find said quantity. 2 means that 'n' is the quantity and you are displaying said quantity with the variable 'n'. If you are attempting to say that you are finding the quant...

My first decent answer ever on the site

Did I do good enough?

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly. Where was Scheherazade mentioned? In 1001 Nights.

question_asker

@Cerberus Oh I don't disagree, but I understand why it sounds weird

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Mitch

17:56

@DeltaEscher very decent.

Delta Escher

It's a weirdly phrased question though

Cerberus

@question_asker I also think it can sound slightly informal.

Mitch

answers the multiple possible points of view

Boris_yo

@KitZ.Fox Thanks. If instead of "travels" word was "journey" would that make any difference?

Delta Escher

In all seriousness, no one would use any of those

Mitch

17:57

@Cerberus numbers are both adjectives and nouns.

In irish prepositions act like conjugated modals. True story!

Kit Z. Fox

@Boris_yo "Journey" has more nuance. I suggested the change because it has fewer words.

Cerberus

@DeltaEscher +1. But you might want to mention that in your answer, then, that noöne would actually use any of those.

Færd

@snailboat Could you give an example of resumptive pronouns?

Mitch

@DeltaEscher haha probably not. a lot more context would be needed to make them substantive.

Cerberus

@Mitch I suppose they can be, yes, cardinal numbers.

Anonymous

17:59

@Færd Wikipedia has a good example.

Anonymous

Resumptive pronoun

A resumptive pronoun is a personal pronoun appearing in a relative clause, which restates the antecedent after a pause or interruption (such as an embedded clause, series of adjectives, or a wh-island). 1. This is the girli that whenever it rains shei cries. Resumptive pronouns have been described as "ways of salvaging a sentence that a speaker has started without realizing that it is impossible or at least difficult to finish it grammatically". An English speaker might use a resumptive pronoun in order to prevent violations of syntactic constraints. In many languages resumptive pronouns are...

Færd

Okay.

Delta Escher

I love the amount of ELU questions using phrases no one in their right mind would even use in the first place

Mitch

lots of NNS's

Cerberus

> This is the girl that—whenever it rains, she cries.

Delta Escher

18:00

Debating which phrase out of a bunch of incorrect ones is the most correct seems to be null.

Mitch

they're in their right mind but in another language

Cerberus

This is how I would punctuate that, as an anacolouton.

Anonymous

If you ask most fluent speakers, they'll usually say relative clauses with resumptive pronouns sound bad.

Mitch

@Cerberus That's sad.

Anonymous

But people nonetheless do come up with them sometimes.

Cerberus

18:00

They sound like casual speech, sometimes to rhetorical effect.

Anonymous

Often if you ask the speakers afterwards they'll say they couldn't think of a better way to say it. They usually aren't especially happy with the way they sound.

Cerberus

Sometimes they don't sound casual, in extremely long sentences. They do still sound rhetorical then, though.

As if the sentence were part of a speech.

Mitch

@Cerberus especially after a long intermediate aside

Cerberus

Example?

Or did you mean, this often happens after a long intermediate aside?

Then I agree.

Færd

So the better-accepted way would be:

> This is the girl that cries whenever it rains.

Cerberus

18:02

Yes.

Anonymous

@Færd Unicode has a subscript 'i' for you to use: ᵢ

Mitch

This is the girl that, whenever she goes on a long trip without any way of contacting her family, ... cries.

Boris_yo

@KitZ.Fox Would yo say "to accompany you on your journey" or "in your journey"?

Delta Escher

Ugh

Cerberus

Yeah, good example.

Anonymous

18:03

The 'i' is called an "index". When you write 'i' after two words in a sentence, it indicates that they're co-indexed (are co-referential).

Cerberus

And ugh.

Delta Escher

It's obvious that so many people use this to justify themselves getting wrong on a test

Anonymous

Similarly, you can use 'i' and 'j' to indicate that two words refer to different things.

Mitch

ugh.

Cerberus

Use what?

Delta Escher

18:04

So many 'What's the real right answer to this question?'

Mitch

wait, is caveman allowed in chat?

Delta Escher

0

Q: Correct title for this paragraph?

One reason many people keep delaying things they should do is that they fear they will do them wrong or poorly, so they just don’t do them at all. For example, one of the best ways to write a book is to write it as quickly as you can, getting onto paper the thoughts that come to yo without regard...

title

Cerberus

@snailboat Why not a and b? Or x and y?

Mitch

I didn't mean anything personal by it.

Delta Escher

This is someone literally saying:

Cerberus

18:04

No, only troglodyte is.

You barbarian.

Delta Escher

"Which is the right one?"

Anonymous

@Cerberus I don't know. Maybe for the same reason programmers sometimes use i and j as indices.

Kit Z. Fox

@Boris_yo on

Delta Escher

"The answer sheet said this, but I think this one fits it better!"

Færd

@snailboat I see.

Delta Escher

18:05

Is that enough to justify a flag vote?

Cerberus

@snailboat Why do programmers do that? Do you think the linguists have been influenced by the programmers?

Mitch

@Cerberus trogs always want to lord it over the cavemen. But philistines are the most snobbish of all.

Delta Escher

@snailboat I use x

Cerberus

And why not use numbers?

Delta Escher

x is best variable

Anonymous

18:05

@Cerberus I for index, I suppose?

Delta Escher

i = null;

Mitch

@DeltaEscher depends on how 'giime da codez' it is?

Cerberus

@snailboat Oh, but...j doesn't stand for index, so it becomes all messed up!

Delta Escher

0

Q: Correct title for this paragraph?

One reason many people keep delaying things they should do is that they fear they will do them wrong or poorly, so they just don’t do them at all. For example, one of the best ways to write a book is to write it as quickly as you can, getting onto paper the thoughts that come to yo without regard...

title

Anonymous

I dunno.

Mitch

18:06

@Cerberus it's a math thing. i is for index, and j comes next

Delta Escher

I just use x and y

And if I use both, then maybe I'll spice it up

Use x2 and y2

Cerberus

@Mitch But i is already used for the irreal number, I thought? The square root of -1, or something?

Anonymous

@DeltaEscher Some programmers get all crazy on you and use more than four variables in a single program. I can't imagine what they name them.

Delta Escher

Quick question

Kit Z. Fox

@DeltaEscher No.

Cerberus

18:08

@snailboat How about after whatever the variable is expected to contain?

Delta Escher

Why doesn't Java come with all the stuff imported?

Cerberus

That's how I name my variables.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Now that's crazy talk.

Delta Escher

Why do I have to import it?

Mitch

there are too many variable quantities, and x and y can't do all the work. a,b,c are resrved for constants that you just don't know (which is different from a variable (I know right!)) and i,j,k for indices.

Cerberus

18:08

@snailboat Haha, is that irony?

Delta Escher

@Mitch I mean for looping

Cerberus

Remember, I'm not a programmer... <points to star board>

Anonymous

@Cerberus I may have been indulging in irony a little bit during this conversation.

Delta Escher

@Cerberus Excuse me

It's called the sidebar now

Cerberus

@snailboat Tsss.

Delta Escher

18:09

I am the SJW

Cerberus

@DeltaEscher Oh, by whom?

Delta Escher

The Sideboard Justice Warrior

@Cerberus Me

And I'm like, super important

Anonymous

But I thought we just established that star board (or starboard!) was the best term ever.

Mitch

@Cerberus math is ambiguous, math is full of infinities. But contradictions? No. that is forbidden. Unless of course you work in a paraconsistent logic and then contradictions are allowed, sort of, but it is not the case that 'anything goes' unless of course it does.

Delta Escher

I have like 350 entire reputation

Fear me!

Cerberus

18:10

@DeltaEscher Oh, of course.

@snailboat Hmm if we're sailing up, it is correct, isn't it?

Anonymous

@Cerberus I think so. The star board is on the right side of the chatboat.

Boris_yo

@KitZ.Fox Thanks.

Cerberus

The snailboat!!

Anonymous

🐌🚢

Mitch

@DeltaEscher indices. looping goes sequentially through indices.

Cerberus

18:11

I knew this was some long-preconcocted plan to take over the room.

Delta Escher

@Mitch I know, so I use and x and y (x, y, x2, y2, so on...) for looping

You seemed to think I made every variable x and y

That would be pretty lame

Cerberus

@snailboat I had to Google those squares.

Anonymous

Aww, I'm sorry. I hoped they would show up for you.

Cerberus

Alas.

Delta Escher

@snailboat What even is that

A shoe drowning?

gerrit

18:12

It looks like a snailboat.

Mitch

@DeltaEscher it's just a a hint (or rather it doesn't happen unless you tell it) to the compiler to link to the functions in those libraries if needed. If you imported everything, the search time to resolve any library function call would be prohibitive.

Cerberus

I have lots of fonts installed, and everythig between Cuneïform and Hieroglyphs shows up, but not this.

Delta Escher

@Mitch That's what I guessed

I just never see any compiling time to be too long

The longest it's been for me is like 0.5 seconds

Cerberus

@gerrit Do you have a bot installed that pings you whenever "snail" is mentioned?

Damkerng T.

Kit Z. Fox

18:14

Hey @gerrit. Long time no see.

Cerberus

Ahh.

Mitch

@DeltaEscher alos confusing, and likely wrong. Realistically, it's better to have your variables named using full words. Fortran is so 60 years ago.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thanks :-)

Delta Escher

@Mitch It's so irrelevant I thought you said 4Chan for a second

Mitch

@DeltaEscher import ..* see what happens.

Cerberus

18:15

Yeah, why not use full words?

I use full words.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat No problem. BTW, I can't remember how many times I pressed the <Ctrl +> key!

Mitch

@DeltaEscher I've never said 4Chan in my life.

Delta Escher

That would require me to give variables good names

Mitch

I can never undo that now sobs

Delta Escher

I like x, y, and var better

Anonymous

18:16

I always have chat zoomed in. My eyes aren't super great.

Delta Escher

@snailboat DOES THIS HELP

Mitch

@DeltaEscher sometimes you don't want to give a variable anything more than a one-letter thing. like especially a boring array index.

Anonymous

@DeltaEscher I think all caps is actually harder to read.

Mitch

But usually you want your variable names to be meaningful.

Delta Escher

@snailboat I mean, at least lowercase letters are more distinct

Somehow caps makes them all blend together

PhMgBr

18:17

@snailboat RIGHT

Delta Escher

@Mitch That was literally the first thing my computer programming class told me

Anonymous

If you're writing by hand, using all caps can make your writing more legible, unless you're the sort who always writes carefully.

Delta Escher

That's actually on the rubric for pass or fail

'Variables have meaningful names'

Anonymous

I've never taken a programming class, but I think it's common sense.

Delta Escher

That's what I'm doing right now

It's kind of easy though

One of them was just to make an image grayscale in Java

Anonymous

18:19

I started out using one- and two-letter variable names as a child because that's what BASIC supported on my Commodore 64.

Anonymous

But it's been a while since we've had that sort of limitation.

Delta Escher

I love Java

It's still pretty rudimentary

Requiring me to declare what type of variable stuff is

int can't be converted into String!

i love that message

Cerberus

> I saw the shape of her cat underneath the blankets—a big cat, resulting in a big lump.

Does anything strike you as odd in this sentence?

Mitch

@DeltaEscher I woud have thought there would be other things. like if-then or loops.

Delta Escher

@Cerberus Yup

They used shape

Then called it a lump

Færd

18:22

Resulting?

Delta Escher

Make up your mind story

Cerberus

Okay.

Mitch

@DeltaEscher 'Programs are meant to be read by people, too'

Cerberus

> I saw the lump of her cat underneath the blankets—a big cat, resulting in a big lump.

How about this?

Delta Escher

@Cerberus No, still weird

Mitch

18:23

@DeltaEscher Requiring types is the opposite of rudimentary.

Delta Escher

Something like: "I knew her cat was there because" instead of "I saw the lump of her cat"

Mitch

or actually the middle. Inferring types (and noting inconsistencies) is the opposite

Cerberus

@DeltaEscher In what way?

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

@Cerberus long-preconcocted plans to take over rooms will always be apart of this network aka Machiavellianism will live forever.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yes. That cat is suffocating.

Delta Escher

18:24

@Cerberus Start with him seeing the lump first

Then deducing it is in fact the cat

And give the cat a meaningful variable

This is pass or fail

Mitch

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ That is a very expansive rewording of the cat story

Delta Escher

@Mitch I could tell what he meant immediately

It gave the cat a meaningful variable

That swayed me understanding it

Cerberus

@DeltaEscher But the seeing already happens first?

Mitch

@Cerberus so what is the answer? It made sense to me.

Delta Escher

@Cerberus He says he knew it was the cat first

Cerberus

18:26

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ Or...perhaps it has already happened, and we just don't know it yet.

Delta Escher

Just make it an ambiguous lump

Then he deduces it's a cat

Cerberus

@Mitch It made sense, OK, but is there anything in it that you find odd or whatever? I will explain once I have some more opinions.

Delta Escher

And if you haven't done so, use it as an opportunity to explain she has a cat

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

Perhaps you're right @Cerberus

Delta Escher

Instead of 'lol i guess she has a cat now'

Mitch

18:27

Oh come on. That's overanalyzing. So what if the first sentence assumes it is a cat and then you realize it is an interpretation of a lump, which could turn out to be something else.

Delta Escher

I thought we were nitpicking it

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah. cat's are dumb

Delta Escher

Don't come for an opinion if you don't want one

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

^buzz phrase

Cerberus

@Mitch That's all? This is actually related to a question I'm discussing in comments, so I asked here in order to get people's unbiased opinions.

Delta Escher

18:29

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ You know what else is a buzz phrase?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in answer, repeating characters in answer: "Death comes in threes" origin? by user172700 on english.stackexchange.com …

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

Don't say it to your boss.

Delta Escher

the busy bees worked busily

Mitch

@DeltaEscher gekommen um zu bleiben

Delta Escher

@SmokeDetector nnmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,n,mn,m

Best answer

I love these people

Mitch

18:30

@DeltaEscher don't say that to your boss either

Delta Escher

@Mitch Lifehack

Don't want to be fired?

Don't get a job!

Mitch

good advice

evidenced based too

@Cerberus I'm trying hard but totally out of context it seems pretty ... ordinary.

i need a hint

grammar?

Cerberus

@Mitch OK thanks!

Yes.

Mitch

semantics?

Cerberus

No.

Mitch

18:31

phonosyntactics?

Cerberus

Someone took issue with resulting.

Mitch

Which reminds me. Irish! amirite!

PhMgBr

Nucleobiosis?

Cerberus

Ummm not that I know!

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. If forced at gunpoint I think maybe 'forming' would be what I would prefer by a smidgen.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

18:33

Do they still force students to read Machiavelli @Cerberus?

Mitch

resulting sounds like a very active process, but a lump and what causes it sound very ... slow to inactive.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah, that was not the issue: it was about resulting having no "antecedent/subject".

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ Well, force? Yes, Machiavelli is part of many curricula.

Mitch

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ They don't have to read it, but it would help get a passing grade.

Cerberus

The implicit antecedent/subject is "the bigness of the cat", which results in a big lump.

Delta Escher

Some of these Cyrillic letters have beautiful names

Ұ

Straight U with Stroke

Mitch

18:35

@Cerberus isn't the cat the antecedent?

Cerberus

Sorry, corrected.

Mitch

aren't they all? haha more cat disparagements.

@DeltaEscher argh! that's not cyrillic!!

Cerberus

@Mitch I suppose you could say that.

Mitch

maybe 'old cyrillic'

@Cerberus I mean it's not Tennyson.

Cerberus

Naturally not.

It is rather a quickly made-up example for an Internet site.

Færd

18:44

Sorry if you've already answered this and I'm asking again, but I didn't understand! My original example was:

> It was just the kind of story where you had to be there.

Why can't I use that instead of where?

Cerberus

Perhaps it becomes clearer if we "flatten" the sentence, into two simple sentences:

> It was a special kind of story. __ this story, you had to be there.

What could you fill in?

Anonymous

> This is the place [ where/that/∅ you were born ＿＿ ] .

Cerberus

Does the sentence work if you leave it blank? I think not.

Færd

@Cerberus I don't know. Maybe I'd've said in which story you had to be.

Anonymous

Here's a relative clause modifying a head noun strongly suggesting a place, with where fronted from locative adjunct position. You can use a wh-relative, that-relative, or bare relative.

Anonymous

18:48

How does your example differ?

Cerberus

@Færd So you need a preposition there, like in. That shows that in this story is not a subject or an object: only those two require no preposition in a simple sentence.

@Færd Which is a relative clause: that makes it more complicated, because which created a subordinate clause.

Færd

I don't know. Maybe I should ask tomorrow. I'm not understanding anything right now.

Damkerng T.

> There's a story that the two took a load of ore into Apache Junction for assay and that it was high grade stuff.

> George, a Dog to Treasure

Cerberus

@Færd But you are right that you would say in which: the in shows that you need a preposition. If you replace which with that, that isn't possible, because that cannot take a preposition: this is the story ~~in that it happened~~ is wrong.

And in which can normally be replaced with where.

Færd

Yes.

Cerberus

18:52

That's why where is possible, and that is not possible.

Which = that.

Damkerng T.

I doubt if that is really not possible.

Cerberus

In which = where.

~~In that~~ is not possible.

Færd

Okay. Makes sense. :)

Cerberus

@DamkerngT. Yeah, that is possible, but that is a slightly different construction.

Anonymous

> I was born in New York. New York is the place [ where I was born ＿＿ ].

Damkerng T.

18:54

@Cerberus Which is why I think it makes more sense (i.e. to take it as a content clause rather than a relative clause).

Cerberus

There that is a conjunction, not a relative pronoun. But where is relative in our example.

@DamkerngT. But a content clause can't be introduced by where.

Damkerng T.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

Cerberus

Oh!

Anonymous

> I was born there.

Damkerng T.

I just made up this sentence: This is a language where var is a reserved word.

Anonymous

18:56

In post-Jespersen grammar, we treat in New York, there, and where all as the same kind of thing. In New York is a preposition phrase, there is a preposition phrase all on its own, and where is a relative preposition.

crl

all hail JavaScript, anyway now you'd better use let

Damkerng T.

@crl LOL

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. var is a reserved word in this language.

Cerberus

So, to summarize @Færd and @DamkerngT. : if you say the story that..., then what follows should be the content of the story, the main event the story is about. If you say the story where..., what follows is just one thing that happened in the story, but not necessarily the main content of the story.

@snailboat There is a preposition? But I don't see any preposition. Nothing is being preposed?

Anonymous

Right, better throw out adverb, too!

Anonymous

18:59

After all, adverbs often fail to fulfill their etymological destiny.

Damkerng T.

@Cerberus I think that makes sense!

Cerberus

I don't have a problem with adverb: it's just very broad.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…