English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:59

@Shafizadeh Your avatar stands out. Your avatar is unusual.

tchrist

01:21

In the Hall of the Mountain King - English Lyrics - Purdue Glee Club

►

@Færd TMI

Cerberus

Was that Glass?

Some 20th-century composer, I think?

tchrist

Dunno, it's Griek to me.

1876

In the Hall of the Mountain King

"In the Hall of the Mountain King" (Norwegian: I Dovregubbens hall) is a piece of orchestral music composed by Edvard Grieg for the sixth scene of act 2 in Henrik Ibsen's 1876 play Peer Gynt. It was originally part of Opus 23 but was later extracted as the final piece of Peer Gynt, Suite No. 1, Op. 46. Its easily recognizable theme has helped it attain iconic status in popular culture, where it has been arranged by many artists (See Grieg's music in popular culture). The English translation of the name is not literal. Dovre is a mountainous region in Norway, and "gubbe" translates into (old) man...

With final consonant devoicing.

My goodness the Nordic lyrics are brutal!!!

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

Why brutal?

tchrist

> Må jeg skjære ham i fingeren?

> Skal han lages til sod og sø?

Don't take their English translations on that page too literally.

Cerberus

Oh, semantically.

tchrist

01:31

Yes.

Cerberus

May I shear him in the fingers, something like that?

tchrist

Yes.

Slice his fingers off, I think.

With a dative instead of a possessive, as is common.

Slice the fingers off him.

Cerberus

I'm just translating word by word.

tchrist

Right.

Cerberus

Makes it easier to get a feel for the lyrics than simply reading the full translation.

I was translating based on the full translation, of course, for my Norse is lacking.

tchrist

01:33

Same.

But it's a loose/liberal/free translation, and understanding Germanic structures helps see through that.

Lawrence

@Mitch It has the same effect as an improperly-used double-negative in a formal discourse.

Anonymous

@Mitch But a similar sort of doubly marked negation was common and acceptable at one point: americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/march98185.html

tchrist

I’m having déjà lu.

Anonymous

And negative concord is common in many languages, including non-standard varieties of English and standard varieties of some other languages, so multiple marking of negation isn't necessarily an unnatural or 'illogical' feature of language.

Anonymous

It seems like irregardless popped up a bit later, but it could be the same sort of pattern.

Anonymous

01:42

Or it could be a blend, as most dictionaries suggest.

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly.

Anonymous

In which case it probably does no good to look at the word as though it's not a blend.

tchrist

No more illawlessness, please.

Nor immannerlessness, which is in violation of the Be Nice policy.

Do owners of iWrecks gets cited for irreckless driving?

Lawrence

@MετάEd Are you sure about that?

@MετάEd Actually, I have no idea what you're saying. :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:20

@Cerberus good evening

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

hello

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hello

my browser is being silly, it just looked like there were suddenly lots of people here including Cerb, only now they're all ghosts

Mitch

@snailboat You're making a case that eventually is not supporting. the 'ir-' prefix is, currently, a prefix used in formal situations. all your cases, as compelling as they are, assumes an informal situation.

Of course you could make the case that this is petitio principii by how I'm using 'formal' in a circular prescriptivist manner.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm no ghost.

Yet

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

the ghosts of departed quantities :-)

Anonymous

Oh, well, that all seems irrelevant to the discussion I was trying to have.

Anonymous

03:27

We both agree irregardless is a poor choice in formal Standard English.

Mitch

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ the eternal sunshine of the spotless whiteboard.

@snailboat yes.

Anonymous

But it's interesting to look at how the word might have come about.

Mitch

it's probably lookupable but maybe a similar mechanism with 'inflammable'?

Anonymous

Well, I just laid out the two mechanisms I think are possible.

Anonymous

We don't really know which is right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:31

@Mitch I was under the impression that "inflammable" means "can be inflamed", only it confused people who thought it meant "cannot be flamed"

hence "flammable"

Anonymous

Also, it may have been invented multiple times independently in different ways.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, just checked on etymonline. So presumably one could have a similar confusion in Ciceronian Latin?

Anonymous

Maybe the multiple marking of negation happened in the 1700s when that was still a more recent pattern, and later it was reinvented as a blend.

Færd

@MετάEd Hence ligers and mules and who-knows-whats.

Mitch

@snailboat wait, what word are you saying is a blend?

Færd

03:33

@snailboat Thanks for the link.

Anonymous

Irregardless is the word dictionaries say is a blend.

Mitch

@snailboat Oh of regardless and irre...something

irrespective

Anonymous

Yeah, quite possibly.

Mitch

which is probably malapropped by the same people anyway

Anonymous

Hey, irregardless has its own Wikipedia page! It needs work, though.

Færd

03:36

@tchrist Heh! I'm not going to deny that, because, how would I prove my point?

Anonymous

It's been antedated to 1795.

Mitch

Which reminds me of a business idea... take dictionary and construct blends/malapropisms from pairs and filter further to produce drug names. Elavil, Wellbutrin, Marmella

Anonymous

Oh, they do mention the 1795 cite!

Anonymous

But they don't mention the alternative etymology…

Mitch

Yes, that's true, assuming the 12 is the right amount. — Mitch 7 mins ago

I couldn't help myself. deleted. and out

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:45

@Mitch You fool, of course it's false. The Americans will never return the drums. It's just a ploy to get free HEDP.

Færd

What do you say when a battery has run out of charge? Do you say that? Or do you say it's empty?

One option is flat.

Another is dead

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd I usually say it's dead or low or drained or out of juice or out of power.

Færd

Mhm. Thanks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wouldn't expect a Canadian or American to say "flat"

tires go flat

batteries die.

of course rechargeable batteries can come back from the dead, so "dead" isn't the best word, but that's language.

Færd

There's a bit of disagreement about that on that page. But I guess I have heard dead, not flat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:58

That page says that Americans will understand it. I can't recall ever hearing it and just imagining someone saying it makes me think only a Brit would speak that way.

Færd

Maybe Brits have their own ways with metaphors.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, they do.

Their cars have a bonnet and a boot, ours have a hood and a trunk.

Calling a battery "flat" makes sense, but it just sounds odd to me.

Odd like the British.

Færd

:)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I suspect the "battery is dead" metaphor arose when most batteries in common usage were the non-rechargeable kind.

When they go "flat" they are "dead"

Færd

This is an interesting subject. What kind of metaphors are used in either side of the Atlantic.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Out of juice would apply better then. But maybe it's a bit informal?

So I guess I'll use out of power when I'm more serious.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

04:11

Out of "charge" would be more accurate ;-)

Færd

Having more options is good.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

always

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd yes, referring to energy or fuel as "juice" is pretty informal.

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

04:34

@Færd i have found that the effort required to think of words used in crossword puzzles is great for vocabulary building.

it helps in developing a reservoir of options :-)

The ny times being the best on one side of the Atlantic; while the London cryptic is the most difficult on the other

J doh

Hello, can anyone tell me if 'that' or 'which' is more appropriate here?

"I've read one of his previous books, which was self-published"

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

05:01

oxforddictionaries.com/words/that-or-which

I would say "which" is correct since it being self-published is extra information.

J doh

Thank you @Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

Thanks for asking :-)

Lawrence

06:03

@Færd Adding to the terms suggested by @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: batteries can also be weak. I'm not sure about batteries being called strong, but they can be fully charged and they can subsequently run out but, oddly, running out of charge isn't idiomatic.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A hood? That sounds like the top of a convertible. Then again, I suppose it's of the same imagery as bonnet. Open the bonnet = pop the hood.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps that is an allusion to a musical instrument going out of tune. Batteries can also be exhausted, the poor things.

@Jdoh The phrasing seems 'off' to me, though I'm not sure why. Try "I've read one of his previous books; it was self-published."

Damkerng T.

09:40

@Lawrence That's interesting. I don't disagree with you, but I wonder if you'd find this "off", too: I've read one of his books, which was self-published. [...]

Færd

10:06

@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ Yes. I'd thought about that, and I remember trying it a couple times, but, unfortunately, to little avail. Solving crossword puzzles usually needs familiarity with too much cultural and regional issues to be considered just a vocabulary test/boost. :)

@Lawrence Thanks.

skill patrol

@Færd start with the easiest ones you can find and handle comfortably and work your way up...

Færd

I'll try.

skill patrol

...just like any other skill it takes practice :)

Færd

Probably they're classified as easy, medium, and hard?

skill patrol

yup

Færd

10:12

Good.

Lawrence

11:01

@DamkerngT. Removing previous improves the sentence. Let's try to debug this :) . I thought it might have been singular/plural agreement with one far from the corresponding was, and the plural books in between. However, "I've read his book, which was self-published." doesn't seem to help. Perhaps it's the cadence, in particular the movement across the comma.

@Færd You're welcome.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I was thinking that maybe it sounds a bit like an incomplete thought. Like if I read I've read his book, which was self-published, and it just stops there, I'd ask (in my head), "And then what?" I don't know. It could sound better in context, but it seems to sound a little strange as a single sentence.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. Hmm, it's complete; it just sounds a little disjointed.

bbl

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks, and see you later!

RegDwigнt

13:38

@Færd yes, it is possible for hermaphrodites to be gay. In fact all hermaphrodites are gay by definition.

Not sure how that constitutes a hole in anything.

question_asker

This doesn't seem like a gross and bad road to go down at all...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sorry.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt The hole in play here is clearly the familiar sailor's maxim of any port in a storm.

@Cerberus Celerity or alacrity? Discuss. :)

Mitch

14:01

@Færd that's a good ELU question, with lots of possible answers.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Thanks for posting the most embarrassing video ever to have been created by mankind.

Færd

@Mitch It kind of has been asked before.

Mitch

@Færd Oh. link?

Cerberus

I'm a big fan of Coupling, by the way.

Mitch

and also, if has been asked then why the renewed interest? Did those answers not suffice?

Cerberus

14:03

@tchrist What about it?

Færd

3

Q: Battery is flat

I was born and raised in some anglophone Asian country where people use the word "flat" to describe a battery when no electrical current can be generated by it. Some would even use the word "flat" to describe their phone when its battery is dead (although their phones are three dimensional). So o...

Mitch

@Cerberus Said the bishop to the TV producer.

Cerberus

Alacrity is more about liveliness, jumpiness, whereas celerity is just speediness.

Færd

@Mitch I found this after I asked here. But I got answers that aren't on that page too.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm?

Mitch

14:04

@Cerberus and celery goes through you fast

Cerberus

Umm.

Mitch

@Cerberus "I'm a big fan of Coupling' sounds like a expected double entendre by the producers of that show.

@Cerberus gotta start the day with a good poop reference

Færd

@RegDwigнt I was probably wrong, but not because intersexes can be regarded as male and female at the same time, so whoever they are attracted to, they are inevitably gay.

Mitch

@Færd in AmE you say a battery is 'dead' if no power, 'low' if it is close to dead, full, if it is at maximum capacity.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah! Yes, no doubt.

Færd

14:08

@Mitch Thanks. That picked me up from dead to full.

Mitch

Like a bar called 'The Office' or 'I'm on my way home right now'.

Or a BnB called 'Dew Drop Inn'

@Færd It's funny because the meatphor is not consistent. For empty, it's about life but for more than dead, the metaphor is about capacity.

and it's really hard to talk about because the words are all you have to describe it, with the worry of using the metaphor to explain, which is no explanation at all.

falls into deep contemplation of the impossibility of explanation

an ontic fit, if you will

Færd

@Mitch Maybe because life has a bottom limit, not a top limit.

Mitch

@Færd but then you'd say 'the battery is empty'

Færd

Ah. We do say that in Farsi though.

Mitch

and anyway life has a start and a finish (a distance or scale measurement metaphor)

Færd

14:13

s/life/lifespan

Mitch

@Færd metaphors can be arbitrary,

Cerberus

@Mitch Hah.

tchrist

@Cerberus Does either of celerity or alacrity connote something to you that the other does not? For me celerity is about raw speed, while alacrity may be tinged with something volitional. But I might be figmenting all this.

Mitch

@Færd you just translated to the distance metaphor

@tchrist that's how they feel to me.

alacrity is active enthusiasm

Cerberus

@tchrist To me, celerity is mainly about sequential speed, while alacrity is not about speed per se, but rather about liveliness, briskness, being "energetic".

Mitch

14:14

celerity is just fast

jinx

I'm winning this jinx game

tchrist

Ok good, that means this isn't all in my head after all.

Cerberus

Yay!

It's simply Latin.

Mitch

@tchrist It is all in your head. But it's all in our heads too.

Cerberus

> cĕler, ĕris, e (masc. cĕleris, Cato ap. Prisc. p. 760 P.; fem. celer, Liv. Andron. ap. Prisc. l. l.; cf. acer; sup. celerissimus, Enn. and Manlius ap. Prisc. l. l.) [cello; cf. Doed. Syn. 2, pp. 123 and 93, urging, pressing forward; cf. also 1. cello], swift, fleet, quick, speedy (with the access. idea of energy, struggling, and even power; v. Doed. above cited; syn.: expeditus, promptus, velox, citatus; opp. tardus, segnis, lentus).

And:

> ălăcer, cris, e, adj. (also in masc. alacris, Enn., v. below; Ter. Eun. 2, 3, 13, and Verg. A. 5, 380; cf. Charis. p. 63 P.—In more ancient times, alacer comm.; cf. Serv. ad Verg. A. 6, 685, and 2. acer) [perh. akin to alere = to nourish, and olēre = to grow; cf. Cic. Verr. 1, 6, 17; Auct. ad Her. 2, 19, 29],
lively, brisk, quick, eager, active; glad, happy, cheerful (opp. languidus; cf. Doed. Syn. 3, 247, and 4, 450.—In the class. per., esp. in Cicero, with the access. idea of joyous activity).

tchrist

I mainly remember celerity because of its Spanish cognate's "irregular" absolute superlative used in educated speech and literature: celérrimo meaning super-fast.

Cerberus

14:16

There is some overlap.

Kit Z. Fox

Celerity makes me think of celery. Alacrity is without tears.

"Swift (and crispy)" versus "without complaint".

tchrist

Specifically, it’s a synthetic superlative via inflection like our -est rather than an analytic one via "more blah". But the -érrimo words are less common by far than the -ísimo words so it's one that one recalls.

@KitZ.Fox So, without illachrymation then? :)

Kit Z. Fox

I'm not sure what fish tacos has to do with it.

question_asker

nemidoonam

tchrist

@Cerberus Wait, this has acer in its history?

Mitch

14:20

@KitZ.Fox the etymology or celery is distinct from those two

Cerberus

@tchrist No, that's just a cf.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Yes, but parsley isn't as funny.

tchrist

I wasn't sure why they were conferring it.

Cerberus

By alacer commune(?) they mean that it can be m. or f.

And then they sat, cf. acer 2.

tchrist

That makes sense.

Cerberus

14:24

So apparently acer used to be the common gender too.

Actually, the standard feminine forms acris and alacris never have made sense to me.

Why pick a different form for a word in the 3rd declension, and, if you must do so, why -is?

tchrist

@KitZ.Fox Parsely might be funnier if you look good in a crisp pair of heels!

Cerberus

Perhaps a suffix like -is once existed that was feminine, cf. -ix as in rectrix.

Kit Z. Fox

@tchrist haha

Mitch

@question_asker bebakhsheed

tchrist

@Cerberus hmhmhm

Cerberus

14:27

But there must have been more than one suffix like -is, because countless words on -is are masculine or common.

Like canis.

Or fortis.

Phonology can sometimes be like a very short file hash: if you hash a file and require a sequence of 2 letters as the resulting hash, there are bound to be "collisions", and it is impossible to reconstruct the source file.

tchrist

@Cerberus Ok that's it! I'm taking away your not-a-programmer licence!

Cerberus

Como?

question_asker

@Cerberus That's... yeah. That's a way of putting it that I've never heard.

Cerberus

One doesn't need to be a programmer to understand some fundamental computing issues.

skill patrol

You can borrow mine :-)

tchrist

14:32

@Cerberus That was a very cybersavvy phrasing.

Cerberus

I'm just not familiar with all the conventions one needs to know in order to write code. I also hate them.

@question_asker I'll...take that as a compliment?

tchrist

@Cerberus I almost never go to coding conventions any longer.

question_asker

@Cerberus it was... sort of meant as one?

Cerberus

@tchrist Your convention suits and props are rotting away in your basement?

@question_asker Then...I am sort of thankful?

question_asker

@Cerberus uh... cool? (wondering how long we can keep up being timidly assured)

(probably not very long)

Cerberus

14:35

Perhaps we should put it in our avatars.

Damn, I've lost.

tchrist

@Cerberus I do have all the schwag languishing mostly unloved, but programmer conferences tend to be tees and tennies, so those are not unused.

Cerberus

Tennies?

tchrist

Gym shoes.

Cerberus

Tents to wear for clothes?

Oh, never heard of those.

Matt E. Эллен

tennis shoes

tchrist

14:37

Tennis shoes = tennies

Cerberus

Ohhh.

Matt E. Эллен

shoes for people with only ten toes

Cerberus

And people with the -is suffix.

Doubly handicapped.

Matt E. Эллен

Cerberis

question_asker

ten dollar bills

tchrist

14:38

By the way, gym shoes is a very regional thing.

question_asker

true

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен That would be a Greek female I.

question_asker

the only time I ever would have said or heard "gym shoes" growing up is if somebody had shoes that they specifically wore in gym class

Cerberus

@tchrist That's what we say: gymschoenen, or sportschoenen, or (I hate this) sneakers.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I see.

Cerberus

14:39

And gymschoenen can be abbreviated as gympen or gympies.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh hoh hoh! I didn't know that!

Cerberus

Now you do.

tchrist

I wish I owned DARE.

Cerberus

Whom?

question_asker

you wish you owned dare? like, insulted the drug cops?

tchrist

14:40

Dictionary of American Regional English

"DARE is a bold synthesis of linguistic atlas and historical dictionary." The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) is a record of American English as spoken in the United States, from its beginnings to the present. It differs from other dictionaries in that it does not document the standard language used throughout the country. Instead, it contains regional and folk speech, those words, phrases, and pronunciations that vary from one part of the country to another, or that we learn from our families and friends rather than from our teachers and books. For DARE, a "region" may be as small...

@Cerberus dare.wisc.edu/survey-results/1965-1970/clothing-mens-and-womens/…

Cerberus

@question_asker Gymschoenen, when written in full, can also mean "the shoes one wears when going to gym(nastiek)", gymnastiek being what you do either in school (physical education) or when you're pregnant. When going to a gym in the English sense, one doesn't say gymschoenen, but possibly gympen/sportschoenen.

tchrist

Et voilà!

skill patrol

what does dare have to do with drug cops @question_asker

question_asker

@skillpatrol en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен It's discrimination innit.

question_asker

14:43

I was making a vaguely pun-ish joke, but: DARE was the name of a program we had in school where cops would come in and give out (dangerous mis)information about drugs

Cerberus

@tchrist Can you not get it somewhere?

@question_asker Oh, what kind of misinformation?

Kit Z. Fox

Don't do drugs 'cause drugs are bad, mmkay?

Cerberus

I remember when I was 11, we had an "alcohol and drugs night" in school, where we were taught about what those substances do to your body, by our own primary-school teachers (but from certain specially written books for children).

The information was accurate enough.

question_asker

I think @KitZ.Fox has the basic idea.

tchrist

  1 649 sneakers
  2 468 tennis shoes
  3  74  keds
  4  41  tennies
  5  33  gym shoes
  6  28  sneaks
  7  25  canvas shoes
  8  18  loafers
  9  14  tennis slippers
 10  12  nr
 11  12  tennises
 12   8  deck shoes
 13   7  easy walkers
 14   7  play shoes
 15   7  slippers
 16   6  hush puppies
 17   4  boat shoes
 18   4  skips
 19   3  ball shoes
 20   3  basketball shoes
 21   3  oxfords
 22   3  rubbers
 23   3  tennie pumps
 24   3  tennie runners
 25   2  canvas slippers
 26   2  low-cuts

Mitch

14:45

@Cerberus that sounds contradictory: "the shoes one wears when going to gym....when going to a gym in the english sense, [not that''

question_asker

but public school (especially cop-taught) drug education is ... usually pretty bad

tchrist

Tennies is #4.

Cerberus

@Mitch It does make sense: we use gymschoenen when we go to participate in activities that we call gym(nastiek) in Dutch. Since a place you'd call a gym in English is not called that in Dutch, we don't use the word gymnschoenen when going there.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox they can also mess up your life (and everyone around you)

Kit Z. Fox

Rubbers? Them's galoshes, not sneakers.

skill patrol

14:46

@question_asker thanks

"Drug Abuse Resistance Education" on @Wikipedia: "In D.A.R.E.'s worldview, Marlboro Light cigarettes, Bacardi rum, and a drag from a joint are all equally dangerous. For that matter, so is snorting a few lines of cocaine." D.A.R.E. "isn't really education. It's indoctrination."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education?wprov=sfti1

Mitch

@tchrist 'easy walkers'... 'nr'...?

Cerberus

Weird.

Mitch

I've never called them 'nr'

Cerberus

I'd much rather have my child drink the occasional glass of rum than have her get addicted to smoking.

Smoking is far more addictive.

Kit Z. Fox

We had to go home and ask our parents about drugs. My dad said "I knew a guy who went to 'Nam and came back hooked on heroin. He died shooting up. That shit's bad. Don't do it."

Mitch

14:48

@Cerberus then it depends on what gym or gymnastiek is versus English gym. What do the Dutch words mean?

question_asker

yeah I'm of the belief that drug education is good, and should probably be taught by people who have done drugs.

Cerberus

@Mitch To quote myself (no snark intended): "gymnastiek being what you do either in school (physical education) or when you're pregnant".

skill patrol

True dat @question_asker

question_asker

rather than this weird blanket "listen, these things are bad for you. just take our word for it and don't take this as an enticement to try them."

Kit Z. Fox

My mom said "I dropped acid this one time and it was amazing. The colors in the sky were indescribable and I could have stared at grass all day -- it was so mind-blowing. But I could have walked out in the road and gotten hit by a car, so you shouldn't ever do drugs."

Mitch

14:50

@Cerberus gymnastiek is phys ed at school? OK, similar to AmE. and 'the gym' is what adults do to get back in shape. But aren't the special shoes one would where pretty much the same at both?

Also, 'when you're pregnant'? Women wear special shoes for that?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, they are the same, and yet we use gymschoenen only/mainly for the activities I mentioned. I doesn't make sense. On top of that, we use the abbreviated forms gympen or gympies for those shoes regardless of the activity (if any).

@Mitch No, but women go to "pregnancy gym" here, special classes in order to prepare for birth.

Mitch

i like the sound of 'gympies' in English. Especially for gym class.

Cerberus

Or I'm actually not entirely sure what they do in pregnancy gym class.

Mitch

how do you pronounce it? Like 'gympies'? /gimpijz/ is (close to) the AmE

@Cerberus Nice to know. It is sort of a marathon

@Cerberus It's a secret woman thing.

Cerberus

Yes, except that the g is /x/ in Dutch, and we have no voiced consonants at the end of a word, so /s/ at the end.

Mitch

14:54

I think they practice molding the clay that they eventually make the baby out of.

It's a mystery though

Cerberus

Haha.

I actually think fathers are also often present?

Maybe gratuitously so, for mental support?

Mitch

@Cerberus They need a special initiation rite to get in.

@Cerberus To instill guilt. 'See what you've done?'

Cerberus

Involving a simulated birth?

@Mitch Hah!

Mitch

An obstetrician has to be immune to others' pain. Like a dentist but for hours on end and your whole body.

@Cerberus is the initial /x/ voiced?

voiced velar fricative?

Cerberus

@Mitch Umm it's not voiced, and I wouldn't know how to voice that g.

Lawrence

15:08

@KitZ.Fox Hmm, Parsleron vs Celeron. As opposed to the beefier GPUs out there, maybe a Parsleron would be a light co-processor for computing window garnishes. Mostly, it wouldn't do much and would be disposed with the PC in the end.

Kit Z. Fox

It would be kind of bitter, I imagine.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, I've looked it up, and the voiced variant is what they use in the South (you what the South of a country is like, all Mediterranean and stuff).

It's called a zachte g in Dutch, a soft g.

Lawrence

@KitZ.Fox Companies, particularly airlines, could opt for the versions without Parsleron and save a couple of million dollars each year. :)

Mitch

15:49

@Cerberus Oh. that looks like a voiced palatal fricative, like the middle consonant in 'measure'. a voiced velar/uvular fricative would be like the middle consonant in Castilian 'magis' or French 'mari', or Greek /ɣ/

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, no, that is not like /ʒ/ at all.

It is /ɣ/.

Voiced velar fricative

The voiced velar fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in various spoken languages. It is not found in English today, but did exist in Old English. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨ɣ⟩, a Latinized variant of the Greek letter gamma, ⟨γ⟩, which has this sound in Modern Greek. It should not be confused with the graphically similar ⟨ɤ⟩, the IPA symbol for a close-mid back unrounded vowel, which some writings use for the voiced velar fricative. The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ is also sometimes used to represent the velar approximant, though that is more accurately...

↑ That's where I screenshotted from.

Voiced palatal fricative

The voiced palatal fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨ʝ⟩ (crossed-tail j), or in broad transcription ⟨j⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is j\. The voiced palatal fricative is a very rare sound, occurring in only seven of the 317 languages surveyed by the original UCLA Phonological Segment Inventory Database. In Kabyle, Margi, Modern Greek, and Scottish Gaelic, the sound occurs phonemically, along with its voiceless counterpart, and in several more, the sound occurs a result...

Actually, it seems people are not sure whether it's ʝ or ɣ.

I believe the palate and the velum are very close together anyway, sometimes even used synonymously in phonology?

question_asker

16:05

Those are both sounds that I feel like I've been able to get away with getting "close enough" on

Mitch

@Cerberus Really? I think of them as very different in production and perception. like the difference between 'sh' and a sore throat.

@Cerberus oh so the Dutch is a voiced velar fricative?

Cerberus

Perhaps only in languages where there are no minimal pairs.

@Mitch Only in the South.

Mitch

Oh. Like Maastricht?

what about the north?

Cerberus

Unvoiced.

And to me it also sounds different in other ways.

Probably more uvular:

Voiceless uvular fricative

The voiceless uvular fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨χ⟩ (or more properly ⟨ꭓ⟩), or in broad transcription ⟨x⟩ although the latter technically represents a velar pronunciation. The sound is represented by ⟨x̣⟩ (ex with underdot) in Americanist phonetic notation. For a voiceless pre-uvular fricative (also called post-velar), see voiceless velar fricative. == Features == Features of the voiceless uvular fricative: Its manner of articulation is fricative, which means it is produced...

The long-legged x, probably a chi.

Shafizadeh

16:32

@Cerberus thx

stack

"I'm not sure it is helping" OR "I don't know it helps or not". Which one?

Kit Z. Fox

@stack I'm not sure it is helping.

stack

Ah ok thx

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