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Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:12
It is amusing, and can be a good exercise for first-year linguistics grad students.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Hey I have a serious question.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Hm?
Cerberus
Cerberus
When I say "I am surprised that you should be here", where does the "should" come from?
I have heard some theories, but never anything close to a convincing answer.
And it is difficult to research.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
That is probably a good EL&U question.
I'd have to really think that through.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yeah, I might actually Ask it.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:16
My first thought is whether it is related to "Should you need help, don't hesitate to ask."
Cerberus
Cerberus
I thought about that too.
I think it was my best guess:
If-clauses can function the same way that-clauses can in some cases.
Oh, would you use "should" here: "there is no reason why she should be allowed to come in"?
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Yes.
Cerberus
Cerberus
OK.
The step from "if" to "why" seems a bit weak.
If I may express it in non-linguistic terms.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
It could be that it is just being used as the subjunctive of "shall"
And it's not too different from "would".
Cerberus
Cerberus
Hmm...
Not different in what sense?
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:23
I shall do that. = I will do that.
But "I should do that" ≠ "I would do that" most of the time
Cerberus
Cerberus
Agreed.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
I'm just kind of thinking out loud.
Cerberus
Cerberus
What about the use of "will" to express a frequent action or tendency?
So am I.
Nah.
I think Fowler had a theory on this.
I don't have him with me, but I think he wasn't sure;
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Like, "he'll often eat apples"?
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yes, like that - but I don't think it leads anywhere.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:26
I would be shocked if you had him with you!
Cerberus
Cerberus
Hehe.
I have slept with him on occasion.
When I would wake up and want to look up something prescriptionist.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
That disturbs me on more than one level!
Cerberus
Cerberus
Good.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Anyway, I think that makes a good EL&U question, because I think it takes some thought and maybe research.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Actually I think he suspected it might be a transformation of "there shall be a robber".
You are right.
The kind of "shall" used to introduce a character in a story, very old usage I think.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:30
Those modals have some weird evolution going on
Cerberus
Cerberus
By the way, I wish this chat were strictly chronological.
Yeah, I think they are in a cycle, like taboo words?
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
They just keep shifting around, and I don't know why it happens.
"will" used to mean "want"
Cerberus
Cerberus
Right - as it still does in Dutch and German.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
And we still have the noun will.
Cerberus
Cerberus
In Dutch, "shall" has lost its sense of command a few centuries ago. It is only so used in Bible quotes I think.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:33
In US English, "shall" has basically lost all use.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Is there consensus on the theory that languages with more speakers change faster than those with fewer speakers?
But you still use it in legal documents I think?
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Might be
That's almost a different thing altogether.
More akin to a programming language, in a way.
Cerberus
Cerberus
True.
Dutch legalise still uses Latin forms of address: amica, amice.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Funny.
As for language change and number of speakers, I wouldn't know offhand, but I'd imagine that it could just as easily be the other way around.
Smaller communities could lead to faster language change.
Cerberus
Cerberus
I am not saying I have a clue as to how it works...
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
00:35
Because it would be kind of like inbreeding... a feedback loop
Oh, time for me to go to dinner.
Cerberus
Cerberus
But seeing that Dutch seems to evolve more slowly than English, and Afrikaans more slowly than Dutch...
Ah ok, thanks for your help! Hehe.
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
It's been interesting!
Till next time.
Cerberus
Cerberus
Adios!
Kosmonaut
Kosmonaut
Ciao!

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