English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mazura

02:35

Is there a neat Latin sounding single word to include both matriarch and patriarch? hierarchy sounds good but doesn't "get the square" IMO.

Rathony

05:57

@IͶΔ Hullo.

IͶΔ

06:15

Hullo!

Rathony

@IͶΔ What do you mean by the comment?

IͶΔ

the comment?

Rathony

On your Meta post. You said something like "It doesn't look protected"

I don't get it.

IͶΔ

Uh

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rathony

@IͶΔ Ooops. Isn't it you? meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/7838/…

The one who answered the question?

IͶΔ

06:25

@Rathony That's 404.

AKA Sally, NormalHuman etc.

Rathony

Ha ha ha

It's very embarrassing.

IͶΔ

He's one of the most informative people on SE policies.

He visits different metas and answers stuff in them.

Rathony

I see...

@IͶΔ I thought it was you because we had a similar discussion a few days ago. "-)

IͶΔ

Well, bluefeet's answer on that meta.SE thingy I linked to is from yesterday. So my hunches were correct and they have changed policy according to that post.

Rathony

@IͶΔ Yes, indeed.

tchrist

12:55

@Fard As you wish.

         I: If he will jump, you will not have to.
        II: If he will jump, he can win.
       III: If he will jump, he may win.
        IV: If he will jump, you must follow.
         V: If he will jump, you dare not follow.
        VI: If he will jump, you need not follow.

       VII: If he would escape, let him find help.
      VIII: If he would escape, he will find help.
        IX: If he would escape, he shall find help.
         X: If he would escape, he should find help.
        XI: If he would escape, he would find help.

3

I fear I've had to renumeral them to bind like things to their fellows, but that’s now CCLXVIII conditionals.

Mitch

13:20

@tchrist You should create a taxonomy

branching by every possible verb, modal, aspect, tense

Fard

@tchrist Thank you very much sir. I appreciate your effort.

Mitch

13:38

also mood

Mitch

14:03

voice?

valency?

Fard

@tchrist Many of them can have more than one meaning, right? Depending on whether it's about a real or hypothetical situation (especially if the backshifting is for a real past event or a hypothetical past/present/future situation), or the auxiliary (would, etc. ) has an epistemic or deontic meaning, or ... .

Hopefully I'll try to explore the possible meanings of each and provide some examples, and then post a question titled "How many conditionals are there?" with an answer referring to your table, if you wouldn't mind.

@Mitch Would you care to give an example please?

Mitch

@Fard voice is the label for whether the verb is used as active or passive.

Fard

Well that'd be too much detail, I guess.

Like including the negative ones too.

Mitch

those are only 2 possibilities. but doing it for every modal is 6 or more possibilities.

so less detail with voice.

Fard

What is valency then?

Let me look up ...

Mitch

14:08

@Fard negative might seem like too much details but if it changes the meaning beyond negation then you'd want it listed, right? Because that seems to be the criterion for adding an instance to the list of conditionals.

@Fard valency is how many 'parameters' (nouns) are related with the single verb. That is, is it transitive or intransitive or what.

Fard

@Mitch How can negation add more scope to the conditional meaning of a sentence?

Mitch

How can tense?

Fard

Past tense can mean a hypothetical future event or a real past, for example.

Mitch

(that is, the answer for tense should be similar for negation. A conditional is hypothetical for cause and effect, and when it happens is just as complex as the complement of it happening (not happening))

Fard

I mean the effect of tense is less straightforward.

@Mitch For the negative ones, we can add : And all these meanings hold respectively for the negative protases and apodoses too.

Mitch

14:17

put everything on a time line. tense says where on the line in relation to 'now', aspect says if the action is completed or continuing (independent of 'now', mood is an 'alternate' timeline from what really has and will happen. negation is the complement of the feature (complement in some concept space not necessarily the timeline)

valency is unrelated to timeline. but voice (passivity) converts a transitive to an intransitive (sort of).

@Fard I don't think tense is simple but I don't think negation is simple either. I couldn't say that one is more or less straightforward than the other.

@Fard I disagree. I don't think negation modifies the semantics so simply, or if it does, then all the different modals are also compositional.

Fard

I remembered an example where the effect of negation was not obvious: I wonder if you don't have any cigarettes, meaning if you do have.

If you'd speak in terms of examples (not abstract grammar) I'd appreciate it. My knowledge of English grammar is not adequate yet.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Mr. Hebblewhite also argues that conservation success stories like the bighorn — or the return of wolves to Yellowstone — contribute to what he calls the “Lego fallacy, the idea that ecosystems are like those Lego sets where you build the Millennium Falcon and if a piece goes missing all you have to do is find a replacement and pop it back in.”

What does that mean? I don't get it.

@Fard That's a lot of work. @tchrist is the example maker.

Fard

@Mitch Alright then. I'll be off now. Thanks for the tips.

Mitch

@Fard Yes, that's all I'm saying, the effect of negation is not necessarily obvious, so if you're into listing all no-obvious combinations, then you'd have to add that in as a possibility.

@Fard later

Fard

14:32

@Mitch Correct. But I don't think I'll be able to do that on my own; not very soon. I'm going to stick with the present list for now. Bye.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Really? It means you can't take something out and then just stick it back in and think that will fix it.

Not hotswappable.

Mitch

15:43

@KitZ.Fox well... fine, yes. But more that that I had never heard that as a set phrase 'the Lego fallacy'. In fact the more immediate metaphor from Lego is that when you get the Millenium Falcon set, if you lose one piece, there is no replacement part, those sets have too many unique, unusable-elsewhere pieces. I was confused by instantiating an unintended metaphor.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh, I thought it was about losing a piece and then stepping on it in the dark, causing an accident, and then still not being able to find it later.

Mitch

Anyway, @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 has already admonished me (and others) for that interpretation of the special sets, that you really can use those weirdo pieces in al sorts of other unimagined previously ways.

But my point is that I think lots of other people will read the articles metaphor my way.

Because everybody should think like me.

Kit Z. Fox

Well, maybe it means that too. The wolf is unique. You can't just plug it in anywhere.

I dunno.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox and also not being able to blame anyone because entropy put the lego piece there.

@KitZ.Fox yeah.. that too.

Maybe the wolf doesn't particularly care for moose meat that week.

De gustatibus non disputandum.

MετάEd

@Mitch If by "you", it means "evolution", it's not a fallacy.

Mitch

15:48

@MετάEd I know. You have to buy an entirely new Millenium Falcon set to get that one piece.

MετάEd

@Mitch No, you don't have to buy a whole new ecosystem. The missing piece will evolve from another piece. And all the pieces will react a little. You might end up with a Millennium Merlin.

Mitch

and then you step on the piece in the middle of the night, screaming in agony despite not actually being injured, waking everyone up just for them to see you fall backwards down the stairs, lying in a heap at the bottom. Then everyone goes back to sleep. Bastards.

MετάEd

But you're going to end up with a Millenium Merlin anyway. Pieces of the Falcon are always mutating.

Mitch

@MετάEd from one piece? Is tht the ecological fallacy? literally?

MετάEd

@Mitch If you go out and kill that one piece, something else will step into the niche left open by it.

Because free food.

Kit Z. Fox

15:52

Well. It will close somehow.

Mitch

@MετάEd that heap of junk? it did the Kessel run in 12 what?

MετάEd

@Mitch You're just trying to get me started on parsecs.

Kit Z. Fox

That doesn't mean you are going to get a new predator. It might mean that the deer population explodes and wipes out the cedar population and then undergoes a mass extinction event.

Mitch

@MετάEd Mission accomplished.

Kit Z. Fox

suddenly wants jellybeans

brb

MετάEd

15:54

@KitZ.Fox Then you've got a Millenium Cockroach. Same difference.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox and the fields become over grazed leading to weakened root systems which encourages erosion, and the landscape itself changes in front of your eyes. Just because that one wolf doesn't 'care' for moose. Stop being a picky eater and finish your creamed kale or you'll ruin the landscape

Kit Z. Fox

"Mom, what's Easter all about?"
"It's a holiday to celebrate Sprouting, the start of spring."
"Carl said it is about zombie Jesus."
"That's because the Christians stole it and put Jesus on it so they could subjugate the masses."
"Oh."

My kids are going to have really weird ideas about holidays.

I did not laugh out loud when he said 'zombie Jesus', though I did choke on my tongue a bit.

Mitch

those damn kids at school putting crazy ideas in their heads

@KitZ.Fox I blame bullfighting.

Kit Z. Fox

It's my fault for not being Christian.

MετάEd

I'm more a fan of vampire Jesus.

Kit Z. Fox

16:06

I don't remember him being a vampire.

But it has been a long time since we hung out.

MετάEd

In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day.

For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.

As the living Father sent me and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.

This is the bread which has come down from heaven; it is not like the bread our ancestors ate: they are dead, but …

tl;dr "The blood is the life! The blood is the life!" --Renfield

Kit Z. Fox

But that's drinking his blood. That makes you a vampire, not him, right?

skill patrol

vamps suck blood, they don't drink it

at least the ones i've known

;-)

MετάEd

16:29

@KitZ.Fox He sucks the living Father, and we suck him.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh. I had no idea.

MετάEd

@skillpatrol To make a vampire you drink the blood of an existing vampire. So Jesus is obviously a vampire if he's making us.

skill patrol

that sucks :P

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of answer: The Hamburger likes lettuce on his hamburger by grambo25 on english.stackexchange.com …

skill patrol

@MετάEd Therefore the learning of Latin (considered to be the mother of European language) ... was the first of the Harvard laws of 1642 (followed by Christian conversion)

^from the wiki article on Boston Latin School

skill patrol

16:57

hmmm...the references check out

the edit was done on 6 March 2016

hello btw :)

Kit Z. Fox

hi

My hand feels like it is on fire.

I think it might be some leftover jalapeno oil.

JohnB

remove it from the fireplace

Kit Z. Fox

But omg it is hot.

iirc, milk will work.

JohnB

did you dip your hand in hot sauce? o.o

Kit Z. Fox

No, I made chili last night.

JohnB

17:07

oooo

Kit Z. Fox

Then I took a shower just now and my hand is like "WHUT!?"

I've washed them about six times with dish soap. Thought that would do it, but something about showering must have reactivated it.

JohnB

That's what I would have tried!

Kit Z. Fox

oh snap. I wonder if it was the apricot scrub.

Milk worked.

JohnB

impressive

skill patrol

acid + base

redox

Kit Z. Fox

17:13

Also the oil dissolves into the fats.

skill patrol

17:49

hence reduction and oxidation

IͶΔ

CHEMISTRY TALK SIGHTED

Oh, it seems there isn't anything special.

skill patrol

junior high school stuff

IͶΔ

High school stuff is a subset of real chemistry.

Even junior high school stuff

It's sometimes like studying someone's thesis without knowing it

skill patrol

of course it all builds on itself

on upon

better^ word

:)

Kit Z. Fox

@skillpatrol That's naught to do with dissolution.

skill patrol

18:03

claim?

Kit Z. Fox

whut?

skill patrol

what are you claiming?

16 mins ago, by Kit Z. Fox

@skillpatrol That's naught to do with dissolution.

Kit Z. Fox

18:18

The juxtapositon of "Also the oil dissolves into the fats" with "hence reduction and oxidation" makes me think you are saying that the dissolution has something to do with redox, which it doesn't.

skill patrol

how are you defining "redox?"

Kit Z. Fox

raises eyebrow How are you defining redox?

Reduction = gaining electrons

JohnB

does this help? clker.com/cliparts/D/K/O/V/V/C/red-ox-hi.png

Kit Z. Fox

Yes. Thank you.

tchrist

@MετάEd That sounds anatomically distressing.

MετάEd

18:27

@tchrist Sure, but have you seen one run? It can do the Kessel run in less than 12 centimeters.

@Mitch And this is your fault.

Also, solve, coagule.

skill patrol

@KitZ.Fox Milk, however, contains casein, a fat-loving compound that binds with spicy capsaicin oil and then washes it away. Wherever you have chemical binding you have redox.

Kit Z. Fox

@skillpatrol OK. Well, I said "dissolves" not "binds to". Dissolution does not involve redox.

skill patrol

"Dissolution" is the overall washing away process.

redox makes it work

Water will not bind.

no redox

Kit Z. Fox

And here I was thinking that oil dissolving into fat had to do with van der Waals forces. shrugs

IͶΔ

@skillpatrol That is only one definition.

skill patrol

18:37

yup, a junior high school definition

IͶΔ

Also not all dissolutions are redox.

Is dissolving NaCl in water redox?

skill patrol

if i knew there was going to be a test i would have studied :)

btw @IͶΔ what's the name of the molecule on your avatar?

@KitZ.Fox van der Waals forces are electron forces

Kit Z. Fox

That's one way of looking at it.

IͶΔ

@skillpatrol hexabenzocoronene

skill patrol

nice

IͶΔ

18:45

You can confirm that by scrolling down my long about me.

And hey, it's not really an about me.

skill patrol

I trust you pal :)

IͶΔ

Wha?

skill patrol

no need to "confirm"

IͶΔ

I am the one that put that info in my about me.

I was just saying you could look it up there.

skill patrol

the green reminds me of nitrogen

IͶΔ

18:49

The colors are totally random and have nothing to do with the molecule itself.

It's just that I haven't had color-y avatar for some time.

skill patrol

red and green make a good contrast

Mitch

19:09

@skillpatrol if you're not the most common of colorblind

skill patrol

@Mitch I am!

I still like it :D

Mitch

!! so you're red-green colorbind?

skill patrol

yup

Mitch

but they still look different to you?

skill patrol

yup

Mitch

19:10

are they .... greyish?

of different kinds?

skill patrol

nope

Mitch

but... how do you know you're red-green colorblind if you can distinguish them? I thought 'colorblind' meant 'you can't distinguish them'

skill patrol

i took a test

Mitch

Did you study?

skill patrol

:D

Mitch

19:14

:)

so you can't have done so badly on the test.

skill patrol

Color blindness

Color blindness, or color vision deficiency, is the inability or decreased ability to see color, or perceive color differences, under normal lighting conditions. Color blindness affects a significant percentage of the population. There is no actual blindness but there is a deficiency of color vision. The most usual cause is a fault in the development of one or more sets of retinal cones that perceive color in light and transmit that information to the optic nerve. This type of color blindness is usually a sex-linked condition. The genes that produce photopigments are carried on the X chromosome...

there are varying degrees of "blindness"

MετάEd

It's a woman in a harlequin costume.

Mitch

so it's not really color -blindness- but color-nearsighted?

@MετάEd really? I can't do that cross your eyes thing.

I see a horsey and a doggy.

MετάEd

Hmm, well, if I do the cross your eyes thing I see Nyarlathotep, the crawling chaos. But that's probably just me.

3

IͶΔ

I see an image

Mitch

19:21

@MετάEd Yes. that's just you

MετάEd

Iä! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!

Mitch

@MετάEd baby goats, argh!

skill patrol

why are goats satanic?

Mitch

bad diet

too much roughage

skill patrol

Baaaad joke :-D

MετάEd

19:23

@skillpatrol I suppose it relates to the ancient practice of scapegoating, but which came first, I dunno.

Don't kid.

skill patrol

I see.

Baphomet

Baphomet (/ˈbæfoʊmɛt/; from Medieval Latin Baphometh, Baffometi, Occitan Bafometz) is a term originally used to describe an idol or other deity that the Knights Templar were accused of worshipping, and that subsequently was incorporated into disparate occult and mystical traditions. It appeared as a term for a pagan idol in trial transcripts of the Inquisition of the Knights Templar in the early 14th century. The name first came into popular English usage in the 19th century, with debate and speculation on the reasons for the suppression of the Templars. Since 1856, the name Baphomet has be...

MετάEd

@skillpatrol Like I said above. Solve, coagule.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Like Kit said, when you have a Lego model, and something falls off, you can just rebuild it. Pieces are interchangable.

skill patrol

@MετάEd did you read my harvard message?

i was semi surprised

NVZ

Hello. Just checking.

skill patrol

19:31

Hi

just replying

IͶΔ

@NVZ Hullo. Just welcoming

skill patrol

much better^

NVZ

If one sees a question that has a very high chance of getting closed as general reference, is it okay to still answer it?

skill patrol

sure

why not

what's the worst that could happen?

IͶΔ

@NVZ No.

NVZ

19:34

But I get down voted saying "answering those will encourage more ppl to ask silly questions."

IͶΔ

Don't answer stuff that's likely to get closed.

@NVZ That is true.

25

Q: Should I answer off-topic questions?

Should I post an answer to an off-topic question after flagging it? I seem to find off-topic questions that I can give a good, useful and correct answer to. (The specific question tonight is this one, but it's happened several times this month now). Other users have clearly deemed the question ...

skill patrol

ok, that makes sense if you care about the points

NVZ

I'm talking about this answer in particular.english.stackexchange.com/a/314280/50044

MετάEd

@skillpatrol I read it ... I did not understand it.

NVZ

The user who answered seemed to not care. Why is that?

IͶΔ

19:36

@NVZ It's not a must. It's a should.

@skillpatrol No, it makes sense if we care about quality.

NVZ

I'm not so attached to points, I want the site to better itself every day

IͶΔ

@MετάEd "That message was explicitly meant for you not to understand"

People always tell me that

Mitch

@IͶΔ Hey. Just sayin

IͶΔ

@Mitch Ping! Just pingin'

Mitch

@IͶΔ

skill patrol

19:38

@MετάEd learning of Latin was the first of the Harvard laws of 1642 (followed by Christian conversion)

IͶΔ

@Mitch

Mitch

I can't do less than just referencing you.

MετάEd

@skillpatrol Oh. Well certainly. Because you want to read the Bible in the original Latin. (Screw King James.)

skill patrol

Indeed.

IͶΔ

@Mi

skill patrol

19:43

3^ character minimum

IͶΔ

That is the point.

skill patrol

not including "@"

IͶΔ

That would meta-reference him.

skill patrol

No this "." is a point.

MετάEd

@IͶΔ Hey.

Mitch

19:46

@IͶΔ I was not pinged

skill patrol

3 mins ago, by IͶΔ

That is the point.

Mitch

@Mitch But this meta-references itself (I heard my own ping)

@skillpatrol What's the point of any of this if not pinging needlessly?

skill patrol

good point

IͶΔ

7 mins ago, by Mitch

I can't do less than just referencing you.

I just did less

skill patrol

the ghost of departed messages^

ie 0/0

Mitch

20:00

For the past few minutes I've been continuously not referencing you. On purpose. And up until now I hadn't even mentioned that. Here... I am about to do even more 'less'.

skill patrol

negative?

IͶΔ

@IͶΔ

I just pinged myself.

That's less than not referencing you.

Even less than not chatting with you.

skill patrol

the opposite of negative

the negative of opposite

what would a negative ping sound like?

gnip

n

i

p

IͶΔ

@skillpatrol Ever heard the meta.SE ping?

skill patrol

nope

IͶΔ

20:14

@skillpatrol No, ǫniq

skill patrol

what about "pong" goes with "ping" like "tick" goes with "tock"

SmokeDetector

20:58

[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps answer, few unique characters in answer, repeating characters in answer: "every now and then" with present perfect by kekekekkeke on english.stackexchange.com …

Shafizadeh

@IͶΔ As a note, "bring the message across" is wrong, you have to say "get your message across". Also this is the pattern: "get sth across"

skill patrol

wut?

Don't overreact. One emoji is enough to get your message across.

like that^

Shafizadeh

Yes it is what I said ^^

skill patrol

I see.

Mitch

@skillpatrol I don't see any emojis. But I was reading with my eyes closed

skill patrol

21:11

Then you don't see :)

Mitch

Oh. I see all right. I was peeking

Anonymous

23:50

@KitZ.Fox I have that experience pretty often.

Anonymous

I don't really understand why it happens.

Anonymous

I always assumed it was something to do with habanero oil getting into the pores in my hands and not really washing off.

Anonymous

But hot peppers are my favorite food, and I don't really mind if my hands feel burny :-)

Anonymous

But it's weird that it happens so long after cooking and eating with hot peppers.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…