@Rathony I am pinging you at your behest.

@Kyle Hi, Kyle. Nice to see you here

@Kyle Do you have a minute?

Sure.

@Rathony By the way, I did not receive a red notification from your two @ mentions in the comments above. I just randomly checked this page right now and saw you responded.

Hi

@Kyle It takes time for the ping to arrive.

I don't know how much time. I didn't receive your ping, either.

@Soudabeh Hello.

@Kyle Yes, indeed. It is not very convenient for users. That's for sure. :-)

Regarding your post on Meta about editing, I think you are misunderstanding something.

@Rathony Sure, I'm listening.

Every user has the right to edit in whatever way they like. I am not saying the edit was absolutely necessary, but users have different style and preference.

You should not apply your own standard to others' edit.

As long as it doesn't cause any harm, it is OK.

And about Stack Exchange being taxed, I don't think it is being taxed.

Your Meta post will not change others' editing, I am afraid.

I never do such an edit myself as I feel it is not necessary.

But what can we do if others think that's necessary.

This is from the Help Center: "Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged"

Yeap. Discouraged means not encouraged. It doesn't mean it is prohibited.

And J.R. has an important point in the comment. It depends on how you look.

I remember your first post on Meta and it was also about editing. Don't care too much about editing.

It is one of the least important things on ELU.

@snailboat Hello.

Some who were commenting on my original Meta post (eg @J.R.) thought I was against all edits. I welcome and appreciate edits that are constructive. These include the types of edits mentioned in the Help Center and in J.R.'s comment. My post is specifically referencing edits that objectively do not improve the post.

The edit improved the post.

not very much though.

You can't stop people from editing.

Why do say the edit improved the post?

If you think the edit didn't improve, it is better just roll it back.

I am curious how you could argue the edit did improve the post.

Because it didn't cause any harm and made the key word bold. That's my preference.

I am just playing the devil's advocate.

The edit was not absolutely necessary. But it was done. Nothing we can do about it.

@snailboat hmm... That's not my point. My point is it was done.

Some prefer bold and what can we do about them?

@snailboat Exactly. @Rathony Best case scenario—the edit did nothing to the post (and, thus, is unhelpful). Worst case scenario—the edit worsened the post by deviating from the EL&U standard.

We edit every single bold word to italics?

There is no standard Kyle.

That's the beginning of your misunderstanding.

Why would I believe that we should edit every single bold word to italics? I am the one trying to minimize gratuitous edits!

@snailboat I agree.

Don't try to minimize those edits. You can never minimize those edits.

If you don't like it, just roll it back.

As I said in the comment to your answer on the Meta post, that solution is a band-aid. I'd prefer to inform the user that changing a bold word to italics or an italicized word to bold is gratuitous.

I would do that.

Kyle. How many posts on ELU do you think have typographical and grammar errors?

Please hold; I am responding to an earlier point

@snailboat Yeah, @Mari-LouA and I figured that out yesterday. (See the original comment thread on the Meta post.)

@snailboat What would you do if I changed one word in your post from italics to bold?

@snailboat Exactly. That's what I would do. I will just leave it.

Or roll it back.

@Kyle There is no unified rule on editing on ELU.

I don't edit a post to change a few typos or one or two grammatical errors.

That's my personal style.

But I can't go to a user and say your edit is worthless!!!

Just because I don't think the edit improved anything.

@Rathony I think your "misunderstanding" is that you believe edits are a tool for a user to edit someone else's answers, so that it fits their own personal standard. I am opposed to this idea because then we are not preserving the original author's intent, which is most important. I believe that edits should only be made if they objectively improve the post. This means you should only edit someone else's post if there are typos, formatting errors, provide context, provide updates, etc.

@Kyle That's just one edit.

My Meta post was an okay example of this. I've seen worse, and maybe I should include these cases in my OP.

You raised an issue on Meta for one edit that was rejected.

My question was not about that one edit. My post was indicative of a trend I have noticed here.

You can do whatever you want, but I don't see the purpose to be honest with you.

There is no trend.

I have been here longer than you have.

Some users are particular, some are not

Trend was a poor word choice; maybe "editing style" is better.

Please give me a minute; I am finding a post that better demonstrates my gripe.

You will find some edits in my editing history you would not like.

Please post one. I bet I would like it just fine.

You are not a user that makes gratuitous edits IME.

I hate editing.

Especially after I was chided for a few mistakes.

My advice is this. If a user makes too many gratuitous edits, you can stop them with a comment or warning.

Actually I stopped a few users from editing a post.

But I don't think NPV makes such an edit excessively. NPV is a very productive and enthusiastic member.

By the way, on my first Meta post, I wasn't trying to embarrass you or chide you. I genuinely wanted to learn about the rules of the site and why my edit was rejected. I would've PMed you if I could've. I totally understand you made a mistake (I am sure I have made wrongful rejections as well) so don't feel like I was trying to make you look bad.

Nope, It was not you.

I am not talking about that post.

@snailboat It is a different story.

@snailboat Rathony had brought up my first Meta post a few minutes ago (which I posted a while ago); he concluded I was overly focused on edits.

His exact words were: "I remember your first post on Meta and it was also about editing. Don't care too much about editing."

@Kyle That's what I wanted to tell you Kyle.

@snailboat The meta post meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/7532/…

I believe you can read the deleted answer posted by myself.

But back to the discussion. I am sure @NVZ is a very productive member here, and my post was not about him. It was just one example of what I was talking about. I could post other, perhaps more damning examples; NVZ's was just the most recent.

@snailboat Will do that shortly.

My point was supposed to be very simple: If one's edit is in anyway questionable or in the grey area, the edit should not be posted.

@Kyle It is not a good thing to use a user's specific name.

@Kyle That's based on your own style and preference.

@Rathony Why not?

You can make it anonymous.

I was hoping the user would be pinged and see my post so we could start a discussion!

Just copy an edit which was done.

But what is the benefit of making it anonymous?

What is the benefit of making a user known to the community?

Again, we have a different style.

I just said it above. "I was hoping the user would be pinged and see my post so we could start a discussion!"

Why do you need to start a discussion for such a trivial issue?

@snailboat Only if the editor's rep is under 2000. My Meta post was about users with over 2000 Rep.

@snailboat Correct. That is the issue. That is what my post is about. How can we inform users if they veer outside the community's guidelines?

@Kyle NVZ is as much trusted user as yourself.

@Kyle Again, there is no guideline.

You are imagining there is one. No. There is none.

@Rathony I am not doubting NVZ. I am not claiming to be a better user than NVZ. And there are guidelines. See the Help Center link I posted earlier.

Hmm... It depends on how you interpret it.

@snailboat Are you talking about me? :-)

I know...

There is some degree of interpretation in anything. IMO "Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged" is very clear.

@Kyle OK. Let's agree that the edit was trivial and tiny.

What can we do about it? That's my question.

You have two choices. 1. Roll it back. 2. Leave it that way.

@Rathony What can we do about it? Talk to the user about it. A friendly comment saying "Hey, what's up with that?" That's all! I am not trying to have NVZ hanged, drawn, quartered!

@snailboat Exactly!

@Kyle Why do you need to make a comment in the first place when the user is not making such trivial edits excessively?

How many of your edits were rejected when you were under 2,000 reputation points?

Just one? You made an issue out of it.

How many trivial edits have you seen?

I have not seen so many.

I just ignore them.

@Rathony Actually, false. Dozens of my edits were rejected. And some of them deserved to be rejected. I made an issue out of the edit that was rejected that I had no idea why it was rejected.

Just ignore them. That's my advice.

@Rathony Whether someone does this once or more does not matter to me. I am not looking through the user's past edits to evaluate their historical judgement as an editor. I am looking at that one edit, at that one moment, and trying to make sure that that edit improved to post.

We had better spend this time editing tens of thousands of posts which need editing.

@Kyle There will be another user who will edit that way. I am pretty sure.

I believe NVZ must have seen your post.

*the post

Might have realized the edit was not necessary.

Or might have found it offensive.

I don't know.

But the thing I want to say is very simple.

Let's forget about it and move on.

@Rathony You seem to be focused on the NVZ example. Forget about that example for a moment! This is not about NVZ!

Earlier today I read an edit like this (I can't seem to find the post now; this site is like a maze when you're trying to go back in time):

Was it edited by over 2,000 rep user?

The original text was something like: "I encountered this unfamiliar word in an article." And a user (with over 2000 Rep) edited it to: "I read this new word on a website." This type of edit does not fit into the community's guidelines (which apparently according to you do not exist). Edits are not for "personal style and preferences," but for standards.

I see edits like this every day. My point in the post was not about NVZ. It was about making sure users with over 2000 Rep are cautious and thoughtful about making edits, as these users have 100% independent control over other users' posts.

@Kyle Roll it back when you encounter such an edit.

Edit it yourself.

And to end the NVZ discussion—I don't see a value in NVZ's post. You do notice an improvement. But the fact that you can't point me to a guideline or standard that declares "All use-mentions must be bold" proves that the edit did not have the justification to be made.

Then, roll it back.

You have every right to do that.

When you see such an edit again, roll it back.

Edit it yourself.

What's more productive: Editing edits (while the user continues to make the same type of edits)? Or informing users of proper editing so that they are making fewer questionable edits in the first place?

Editing is more productive.

I would not make an issue out of it.

Please explain. That means you are constantly editing these questionable edits. The user will never stop making them because the user believes that the edit is helpful.

As I said in the comment, nobody can think exactly like you.

Does it cause any harm to the community?

Nope.

When did I say that I want anybody to think like me?

I think you are trying to do that.

As long as it doesn't cause any harm to the post or to the community, it is OK.

How so? Am I editing NVZ's posts to replace bold with italics?

Yeap. Go ahead if you think it is necessary.

That's why I answered "you can roll it back".

It is your own right.

I would never do that. Precisely because I don't expect anyone to think exactly like me. It is NVZ who believes everyone thinks like NVZ.

Then, we can forget about it and move on. What the big deal?

I made one post on the Meta SE. I don't think I am making a "big deal."

Actually you are. It is just one edit. People have different style.

You have to admit that.

You can't change every bad edit on ELU.

You can't change people's way of editing with your Meta post. .

That is your opinion.

You can't force others to think that the edit was trivial.

I am not trying to force anyone to think anything.

You are.

For such a small and trivial edit.

You will have to roll back or correct tens of thousands of edits on ELU.

Do you think other members don't notice them?

They just ignore them.

@Rathony, Hi! Sorry, I noticed your message just now.

Because it is not that important.

@Soudabeh Hello. I was just saying hi to you as your user name is familiar.

@Soudabeh I am a big fan of your questions. :-)

@Kyle As I said, editing is less important than closing, guiding a new user, upvoting, downvoting, etc.

Okay. This is going to be my last post in this chat because I don't think we are getting anywhere. My Meta post was not about that one "small and trivial edit." My Meta post was about a type of editing that is not defensible per the community guidelines. The guidelines can be found here: english.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/edit This isn't about my opinion or my style; it is about which edits are and which edits aren't encouraged.

@Kyle This will be my last one, too. We had better focus on guiding new users, closing questions, flag low-quality answers, etc. which are more important. That's all. Nice talking to you.

You are the one you prompted this chat. If I want to publish a Meta post expressing this issue, that is my right. Considering my question currently has a few upvotes, the community appreciates my post.

If I made a tiny, trivial edit that was gratuitous, and I probably have, I would hope that some fellow user could point that out to me (so that I could see the error and learn from it).

I am not saying your post is not appreciated.

Thanks @snailboat

You are making a too much issue out of it.

@Rathony Yes you are. You are saying, "Shut up already, there's nothing you can do about it."

"You are making a too much issue out of it." - That's your opinion!

Hmm... You misunderstood my intention.

You are making a too much issue out of it.

As you did with your first Meta post.

"You are making a too much issue out of it. As you did with your first Meta post." - Once again, your opinion.

You remember you deleted your answer after I commented "the question is off-topic".

What if I make a Meta post pointing out that users are answering an off-topic question.

Using your specific user name.

Will you be happy?

And judging by the several upvotes on my first post, it seems the community appreciated that question as well.

Voting is a joke Kyle.

You should know that.

Nobody takes voting seriously.

@Rathony, that's very kind of you; happy to know that. ^_^

"You remember you deleted your answer after I commented "the question is off-topic"." That's not what happened. I answered a question that you deemed was off-topic. You commented on my answer and suggested I post my answer as a comment. So, I posted my answer as a comment to the question and then I deleted my answer. If you made a Meta post pointing this out, and used my specific user name, I would not happy nor sad. I would not care, since I did as you said and posted my answer as a comment.

@Soudabeh I learn a lot from your question.

@Kyle All I am saying is you broke the guideline yourself.

It happens.

It's not your fault.

You are not familiar with the guideline.

You will learn as time goes by.

When did I say I never broke a guideline?

Then, why do you care so much about others' breaking the guideline?

The point is, after I learned about the guideline, I changed my behavior.

Yeap. I made a comment to guide you.

You can leave a comment to NVZ's post to guide him.

Yes, I understand that now.

If I made a tiny, trivial edit that was gratuitous, and I probably have before, I would hope that some fellow user could point that out to me so that I could see the error and learn from it.

I don't think that specific Meta post helps a lot.

"I don't think that specific Meta post helps a lot." - Again, your opinion. You've said this several times now.

What I am saying is you could have just left a comment to NVZ.

I didn't know that then. I know that now. The whole point of my post was to figure out the best way to approach this.

Do you think my Meta post about answering an off-topic question can prevent users from posting an answer to an off-topic question?

Nope. Never.

Yes. Some people will read it and learn that they shouldn't do that.

There are multiple posts about them

Still there are users who answer off-topic questions. Even more than before.

There are multiple posts about editing

Still there are users who make a trivial edit. Even more than before.

There are edits rejected every day.

So, I guess according to Rathony, we should get rid of the Meta question feature entirely?

Good edits.

Nope.

We discuss workings and policies about ELU.

The guideline is there. You can roll it back.

If you don't like it.

You can leave a comment and exchange an opinion.

You can come to this chat room and ask about the issue.

I have no idea what you've wanted to accomplish by talking to me, other than making sure that I know that you think I am making too much out of editing. Okay, I know that you feel that way. I don't care either way, but I know how you feel now. Can end this conversation now?

Yeap. Please.

Yippee, meta talk.

Count me in.

To me, all languages sound awesome at one moment, and freakish the next.

My mother language is Azeri Turkish, but yeah, since Farsi Persian is the official language, I speak it fluently as well. I also know some broken Arabic but don't rely on that.

Oh, the native language of Rubberlands?

Yeah, summer sucks.

But you're gonna enter the next 6-month phase in some day.

No, but I love your rants.

Uh

I'm really trying to say "I've seen/heard worse" but I figure I can't really say that.

Hi all I have a question, suppose we want to write a welcome sign for a small city, is this sounds good?

Welcome to Touristic X City

I think so

But only "welcome to X city" is also strange and if we write "Welcome to X" then it's not clear if X is a city or village

No it's just e.g X

They really want to put city after it just because it's small

Thanks for enlightening about touristic and yes the latter looks ok (city of) and I don't think it's a part of city name

Thanks :-)

@Jasper ಠ_ಠ

Come to think of it, it's pretty weird to think of Japan as an Asian country. Hmm . . .

Says an Asian

@snailboat Hi! Why would you think so?

@IͶΔ Why? It's in Asia.

@Cerberus Yeah, but gut feelings don't follow logic.

I don't have that feeling.

Any place from Israel to Russia is Asia to me.

In my mind, Japans doesn't fit in that range.

It's outside Russia.

Further right.

Or left if you're inside Earth.

@IͶΔ Have you seen any Japanese movie, anime, whatever? Or you're just talking geography?

@IͶΔ That's a big if.

@Fard Just geography. What has anime to do with this?

@Cerberus How big?

@IͶΔ Culture.

Even geographically ...

We weren't talking about culture.

google.com/maps/@42.7017093,133.6628308,3z Definitely Asia.

We're not talking facts dude. We're talking gut feelings.

I don't gut feel your gut feelings too.

Of course, since you're not me, and I'm not you.

And you're a chemist, and I ... well, am not a chemist.

I'm not a chemist.

Dude, unite these two forums for wisdom's sake.

1. SE sites are not forums.

2. Is that a nicer way of saying "merge them"?

Yes.

Math.SE is ten times larger than ELU, and is still doing fine with all the elementary to advanced questions.

Our definitions of doing fine are different.

@IͶΔ About 20,000 km?

Hi!

@Jasper Who?

@Cerberus Wrong unit. Biggishness is not length.

@Jasper :'(

Why not?

@Jasper Depends on who you ask. I would say no. Especially not the vowels: English is the only European country that has messed up vowels.

@Cerberus It's either volume, or you have to use a dummy word like "long".

@Jasper We're all minimalists, aren't we?

@IͶΔ Says who?

@Jasper Well, most European languages have fairly consistent consonants?

@Jasper There's one difference though. Anyone can spam on almost any question about Linguistic stuff, but that doesn't happen in math and science as often.

A t is a t, an m is an m.

@IͶΔ Oh, okay. Then it must be true.

We can understand each other, so it seems.

This is bad.

No one should understand me.

Technically, an anion. Read in a nerd's voice

@IͶΔ I don't need to understand you to blindly follow you.

@Jasper Those are conjoined triplets. (the dogs)

@Jasper everybody can understand everybody, but they all sound different

@Jasper sorry

@Mitch No, thank you

I feel sleepy every time @Mitch comes to chat.

@IͶΔ I haven't been myself lately

@Mitch Oooh, who are you right now?

I'm not crazy. It's another me

@IͶΔ causation is not correlation

I didn't say it is. It's just a stunning piece of fact.

Wait...it better be or things really will fall apart

Oh, okay. I should feel sleepy more often. Point taken. nod You're right.

@Kyle Hi Kyle, Just a tip about chat: hover your mouse over the space between the name/icon and the comment to get a list of actions. "Edit" allows you to edit your comment like on the main site (time-limited). The "reply to this message" action places a little return-arrow icon which lets others see which message your comment relates to. (If you already knew all this, just ignore this message.)

Haha they should totally put this stuff in a FAQ people won't read.

@IͶΔ Yeah, someone commented some time ago that SE should consult the user experience SE community. On ELU alone, there's so much stuff scattered around the place - it took me a long time to even reliably get to this chat room :) .

Heh

Well, having a meta site instead of 100 boring FAQ pages has one downside: Real practical FAQ more veteran users should know is scattered all around the place in trivial comments, in an disorganized way.