English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:00

Your own sentence betrays the fact that Earth IS countable

kiamlaluno

Proper nouns are not countable, generally.

Cerberus

Is it?

kiamlaluno

You don't say, "there are three Albertos."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you counted it: "one". done. all Earths counted. Total found: 1.

@kiamlaluno I've said things like that lots of times

"There were three Michaels in my class in high school. We had to give them nicknames."

Cerberus

Well, all right, so you are using a formal criterion here: if you can put "one" in front of it, it is countable.

kiamlaluno

20:01

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Maybe you meant, "there are three people named Alberto."

Cerberus

That is the right method.

But I am not a big fan of "philosophical" methods in this case.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kiamlaluno Of course, what else could that mean?

Cerberus

So now do the same for plural and singular: what are your formal criteria?

kiamlaluno

Anyway, there is just an Alberto here; so you cannot say, "there are three Albertos." :-)

test
test
test       test                        test

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Singular: countable, and there is one of it. Plural: countable, and there is not one of it. (Plural is tricky: is zero plural? mathematically, dunno, grammatically, yes)

@kiamlaluno If you can't say "three Albertos" how can you say "an Alberto"?

kiamlaluno

20:04

Wow, I learned something more.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What does "there is one of it" mean?That is to vague for me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

unless you meant "There's only one so you'd be wrong to say three"

@Cerberus quantity = 1

when the quantity is 1 it is singular

kiamlaluno

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't say, "an Alberto." I say Alberto.

Cerberus

That is still to vague.

How do you establish the "quantity" of the USA?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus How is that too vague?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:05

@Cerberus You count all the things called "USA" and find that there is only 1.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The how about "The United Members of this Website"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Context matters: in comic books, with alternate dimensions, you might actually have to deal with infinite quantity of USAs

Cerberus

And how about just "the members of this website"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Ah, you're trying to introduce the question of "is a group singular or plural"

Cerberus

@Kitḫ It is too vague because it is not about language but about metaphysics or one's view of reality.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Nope.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:07

Well, then I don't understand your question.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Really? I thought it was about math.

How many Earths? One.

How many members of the website? 336.

Or, more than one.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I am trying to elicit answers from you so that I can force you to define hard linguistic criteria, not vague philosophical ones.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"the members of this website" is plural because "members" is plural.

The USA is singular because conceptually it is one nation.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Are those things I mentioned plural, singular, neither, or both; and why?

Kitḫ

I don't understand how numbers are philosophical.

Cerberus

20:08

@Kitḫ How about "a thousand": singular or plural?

kiamlaluno

Singular?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus is that even a noun?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Conceptually? How isn't that vague? Isn't it also conceptually plural because there are 50-odd states?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It can be. So what?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus You didn't ask singular or plural. You asked how many.

@Cerberus No. The states are plural. The country is not.

Cerberus

20:09

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So how can you tell whether it is plural or singular, if you cannot establish its nature conceptually?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It can be.

kiamlaluno

A group made of many units is still a group.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I established it. Sometimes, it can be established another way.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ MrS brought up numbers; I am after singular v. plural.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In fact there are articles about The USA's singularity/plurality.

I don't see how you could think that singular vs plural is NOT related to numbers

Cerberus

Don't you think that is a messy business?

Kitḫ

20:11

One country = singular. Fifty states = plural.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus what's messy? multiple concepts embodied in one term?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is related to numbers, but it is not the same, and you can't always use numbers to establish plural/singular.

Kitḫ

One = singular. More than one = plural. I'm pretty sure that's how the dictionary defines them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Got an example?

@Kitḫ careful: zero is plural too

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The USA is a good example.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why? How?

Kitḫ

20:13

1 min ago, by Kitḫ

One country = singular. Fifty states = plural.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ So, what is your answer, then?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus As I said before, I'm not sure what math or philosophy has to say about zero being plural, but it's not singular, and if you divide (countable) thing into plural and singular, then it must be plural.

@Cerberus that IS the answer, actually

It depends on the concept

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wait, what?

Kitḫ

It depends on the context.

Cerberus

That sounds strange.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:14

Just like a/an + historic|SQL|URL depends on the pronunciation

Cerberus

It is not singular, and there it must be plural, even though it is zero??

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

singular/plural depends on the concept

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Then how do you know whether it is plural or singular in a certain context?

Kitḫ

Zero is plural because it defines the absence of all things of that kind. All is plural, therefore zero things is plural.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus How do you know anything in a certain context?

Kitḫ

20:15

@Cerberus If you are talking about the country, it is singular; if you are talking about the states it is plural.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I'm sorry, but that is not at all logical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I defined plural as non-singular.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ But how do you know which one you are talking about?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Sure it is.

@Cerberus Context.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And isn't that counter-intuitive?

@Kitḫ Sounds like a very soft criterion.

In this case.

Kitḫ

20:16

Not really.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus lots of things are counter-intuitive. Doesn't mean they are wrong. Quantum mechanics is counter-intuitive.

Cerberus

I think the standard method that linguists use is far better and clearer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Language Log has covered the grammaticality of The USA as a singular or plural subject. languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1794

Kitḫ

What do linguists use?

Cerberus

At one point you're saying, "hey, just look at the objects that the word refers to"; next you're saying, "okay, zero does not refer to several objects, but hey let me use an entirely different method to reason that it is still plural".

@Kitḫ Verb agreement and plural endings.

Kitḫ

20:19

Well, how do they determine what's correct?

Cerberus

Correct?

kiamlaluno

(Finally, I found the sentence.)

Kitḫ

How do you know how to conjugate the verb?

Cerberus

If I say "the USA is a fascinating country", it is singular, because I use "is". It's that's simple.

Kitḫ

How do you know to use "is" and not "are"?

Cerberus

20:19

@Kitḫ You know it intuitively.

It can be seen in any corpus.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ... what?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Oh, sure. And my rationale is soft and philosophical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's your answer? "you just know"?

kiamlaluno

If somebody says, "you have been angry with me for 6 months," does that mean, "you have been angry with me every day, for 6 months"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"I opened my mouth, and some words came out, and they agree with singular verbs, therefore, singular"?

Cerberus

20:20

No, I don't know it intuitively, but every user of language knows it.

Kitḫ

@kiamlaluno Yes. Ish.

Cerberus

I am the subject, the corpus is the object.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kiamlaluno "every day" is a conclusion you have to infer, it might not be true, but probably is.

Kitḫ

It is ridiculous to claim that that is "hard linguistic criteria."

Cerberus

No, actual usage is the hardest thing we have.

kiamlaluno

20:22

@Kitḫ What I mean, you don't say "for 6 months," if it happens one day every month.

Cerberus

Anything else needs to be tested against it.

Kitḫ

Pfah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus, how does a 2nd language learner, coming from a language with no plurals, know how to form singulars or plurals?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 He may not know.

Kitḫ

@kiamlaluno I would assume it meant that there were ongoing feelings of anger for the entire 6 months and still continuing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:22

@Cerberus But it would seem that he CAN'T know.

if he has to rely on intuition

or corpora

Cerberus

I am not saying there is no relation between the number of objects and the syntactic category "plural"; I am just saying it is not one to one, and that you will get into trouble if you try to analyse it that way.

kiamlaluno

@Kitḫ I guess that then, "we have been fighting the last two months" means it happens most of the time, in the last two months; if is just 10 days (or less) per month, I should not say, "we have been fighting the last two months."

Kitḫ

@kiamlaluno In the last case, I would say "we have been fighting off and on for the last two months."

Cerberus

Using verb agreement and endings, however, is a very precise criterion.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:26

@Cerberus Besides the USA, which we've already explained depends on whether the speaker considers it a group of states (plural) or a single nation (singular), are there other examples where you can't use logic? (note: sometimes a group is referred to as a single group or a bunch of members, still, all the matters is the speaker's conception of the idea)

I'd like to ask this as a question but since it invites a list, I'll get shot down by TPTB: "Please list all nouns where logic/counting fails to predict whether the noun takes singular or plural agreement"

kiamlaluno

What's the news?

:-)

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It may be so that the speaker's subconscious conception of whether something is a group or discrete members is what causes him to use is or are; but these things we cannot observe.

We cannot easily predict them.

We need to work with what we can handle, not whatever is behind it.

Is and are can be observed without effort or disagreement.

BRB groceries.

kiamlaluno

The groceries is ready.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In the case of water, how would you go about pinpointing singular v. plural for the word water in a text?

Kitḫ

Can you count it?

Cerberus

20:36

I can count buckets of it?

Molecules?

You need to establish what my conception of it is in a particular sentence.

How are you going to do that?

Kitḫ

I don't need to establish your conception. You need to establish your conception.

You're the one trying to communicate.

Cerberus

No, we are scientists trying to come up with criteria for distinguishing plural and singular.

We have a text, and we need to analyse it.

BRB

Kitḫ

Well, that's different. If you are looking at something someone else wrote, of course you would look at how they used verb endings and such. That's not what I was talking about at all.

I mean, trying to figure out whether or not someone else thinks something is plural or singular is radically different from determining how to conjugate verbs and whatnot in the language that I myself produce.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus water is a mass noun. It's neither singular nor plural

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not always, though.

"She gazed across the still waters toward her home."

Implies that it is countable, dunnit?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:43

@Kitḫ Is it countable there? I don't think so.

Kitḫ

Hmm. Maybe not then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I agree, it might have singular and plural senses. But that doesn't bother me and I still use the "can I count it, how many are there" algorithm to predict what conjugation I say.

Kitḫ

"We'll have six waters with lemon, a chef salad, and ranch dressing."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ yeah, there you're counting the default serving size of water

Kitḫ

But that's really shorthand for "six glasses of water."

By the way, don't be those people.

"Water with lemon; steak, well-done; salad with ranch dressing" = $1 tip and crappy attitude from your customer.

Also, American.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:47

heheh

Well, time for me to run. As usual, it's been fun, if a tad mystifying, arguing with @Cerb.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thanks for the warmish coffee!

Kitḫ

@aediaλ chortle

Oh FFS, what is the stupid command to take a character of the end of a string in ASP.Net?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps the confusion stems from the lack of context for you guys. Hippie and I were not talking about forming new language as viewed from the subject, but about how to linguistically define whether a word in a corpus is singular or plural.

You could say that you're trying to find out whether the writer had a concept of either one or more objects in mind, when you are looking at verb agreement and endings.

But agreement and endings must be the entrance to the problem.

And the definition can only be based on those.

Otherwise it is not linguistics and barely science.

Perhaps psychology.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 How do you know water is not plural or singular?

Can't I have a conception of "water" as a single entity?

Or as a collection of small particles?

If it is not singular, then how come there is no doubt at all that it should be water is?

Kitḫ

21:07

laughs hysterically

I just spent all day building a web page and I went to test it, and I had forgotten to write the stored procedure that goes with it.

wipes tear

Programming is funny.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

No disaster, I hope?

its_me

Anyone from US or UK in here?

I have a question for ya

Cerberus

Hi. I am neither, but why don't you just ask?

Someone will reply.

its_me

okay...

I always wondered if those whose first language is English, understand each and every single word sung in a song? (say songs by pop singers Justin Bieber, Lady gaga and so on...)

Cerberus

Do you understand each and every word in a song in your own language?

its_me

21:14

yeah, but my language is not fast-spoken like English.

the flow is faster in english

Cerberus

Strange.

its_me

what's strange?

Cerberus

I am Dutch, but I certainly don't understand every word in songs.

What is your native language?

its_me

oh!

You probably have never heard of it. "Telugu"

Cerberus

Hmm...

Is that from central Asia or something?

its_me

21:16

India

Cerberus

Ah.

OK.

user19161

@its_me If the song is fast we cannot make out some words.

its_me

@JasperLoy are ya from US?

(or UK)

user19161

Even if it is slow the singer may not pronounce the words clearly so we still may not make out the words.

aedia λ

@its_me US, reporting!

its_me

21:17

@ae

Cerberus

Well, I am a bit surprised that you should say you understand each and every word in songs in your own language. Perhaps you are comparing different genres?

user19161

@its_me Neither.

aedia λ

@its_me I have trouble understanding a lot of words in songs.

Cerberus

See?

user19161

@itsme I came in simply because you mentioned Justin Bieber.

Cerberus

21:17

Perhaps the kind of music you listen to in Telugu is just slower.

I can understand every word in a slower song.

its_me

Yeah I see it. I am happy... 'coz I too don't get just a few words in a song, otherwise it's fine.

Cerberus

Yeah don't worry about it.

user19161

@itsme Also sometimes singers change some words on the spot.

Cerberus

Another point: perhaps you just know these songs in Telugu better, because you have heard them a lot.

user19161

@itsme So the singer might not even sing the same words as what is written as lyrics.

its_me

21:19

@Cerberus Yeah. There are no POP singers in telugu, and by the way, even if they can sing it, I can understand. Of course, I don't know the deeper side of my language - - slang you call it?

aedia λ

I think I understand most words in folk songs, children's songs, the Beatles, Joni Mitchell, Arlo Guthrie, Pete Seeger, things like that, where it's often acoustic guitar and vocals that are prominent.

But many other types of music are hard for me to make out lyrics right away.

its_me

@JasperLoy Yeah. They kinda seem to twist the words to fit the tune

user19161

@itsme Actually even in normal speech you can't make out every word all the time.

Cerberus

►

user19161

@Cerberus Is that you?

its_me

21:20

@aedia sometimes I feel that the background music is much louder than the song itself

Cerberus

Try understanding every word of this if you have never heard it before.

@JasperLoy Yes.

user19161

@Cerberus Woof!

its_me

@Cerberus never saw or heard. Checking it out

user19161

@itsme So you like JB songs?

Kitḫ

Gotta go. Byes!

its_me

21:21

@Cerberus "Actually even in normal speech you can't make out every word all the time." - - that pretty much depends on our vocabulary, right? My voc. in english is quite poor. I use simple words to make it up! :D

@Kith TC

user19161

@its_me Hey I said that so you should ask me instead!

its_me

@JasperLoy one or 2. never say never is my fav

it's got some very good meaning or tune... something that makes my heart thump

user19161

@its_me Like I said sometimes the speaker doesn't pronounce words too clearly.

Cerberus

@its_me Sure, it depends. And if people are speaking fast in your native language or with a slur, or a dialect...

►

user19161

@Kitḫ Enjoy dinner!

its_me

21:23

@JasperLoy "Hey I said that so you should ask me instead!" ?? Don't you like any of his songs?

Cerberus

This song in Telugu, for example, sounds quite clear and well articulated.

It would be comparatively easy to understand.

user19161

@its_me I like Baby.

its_me

most of the songs you find in telugu are slow

@JasperLoy that's my first Bieber song

@Cerberus with regard to that video, I don't even try to listen to those songs. My head hurts. I mean, I would have to focus a lot + not interested. Sorry if this hurts anyone around, no offense.

(english video)

aedia λ

@its_me Me too. Even with genres I like. For example, the Bosstones are ska/punk, and I like them, but I only know the words to this song because I've heard it so many times; I can't understand them right away when I hear an unfamiliar song.

its_me

:D right

aedia λ

21:27

They Might Be Giants is a band similar in genre but with vocals I find a little easier to understand.

its_me

You know what my problem is, I am looking for words as I speak, and I think that makes me stutter quite a lot

The reason is, I have no one around to speak in english

any ideas as to how I can make up for it?

aedia λ

@Cerberus To me that's like voice is an instrument... you could tell me there aren't any words and I'd believe you.

@Kitḫ Laterz!

Cerberus

@its_me You mean the opera? That is fine, it was exactly why I showed it: very hard to understand for anyone.

youtube.com/…

its_me

yeah,

user19161

@its_me Talk to yourself. Watch English movies.

Cerberus

21:29

@its_me How easy/hard is this for you to understand?

its_me

super easy

Cerberus

Oh, OK.

It is a pretty language, even though I can't understand a word of it.

its_me

@JasperLoy I plan to use YouTube for that. Start my own Vod / Podcast or something

@Cerberus hehe!

aedia λ

@its_me Try having an imaginary conversation. Talk to yourself in the mirror, ask yourself about your day and tell the story of what happened. Or look for language learning exercises and conversation prompts.

Cerberus

Do they speak Telugu around Bombay?

its_me

21:31

@Cerberus there's it's another language called Hindi

Cerberus

OK.

its_me

Telugu is spoken mostly/only/prominently in one state.

aedia λ

I like the free Radio Lingua podcasts but I'm not sure they've got much for English. In other languages, they have a two-person format, where the "teacher" and the "learner" are in the recording together, and there are pauses so you can try to think of what to say before the recorded learner responds. In many of them, it's someone who is genuinely learning, just a little bit farther along, so they do discuss mistakes and misconceptions.

its_me

@aedia yeah, I must. I feel dreadful when I have to call US-based support people (for my web hosting needs). Although they're are nice and speak very clearly, the moment I hear their voice, I start stammering, lol!

Cerberus

its_me

21:34

@aedia And now I have a cool idea. I will be the teacher and the student in my podcast. That way, I will be the one representing both, speaking for both

:P

@Cerberus what's with that image?

Cerberus

It is from Andhra Pradesh.

And pretty.

its_me

lol! I haven't visited every place in AP. That's quite sad actually.

You know what, most Indians know at least 3 languages: English, Hindi and their mother tongue (determined by the state they belong to).

Cerberus

Well, it is not comparable to India

Ah.

its_me

sorry I deleted it as it was wrong

And what's not comparable to India?

List of languages by number of native speakers

The following tables list languages with more than three million estimated native speakers, ordered by number of speakers. Since the definition of a single language is to some extent arbitrary, some mutually intelligible idioms with separate national standards or self-identification have been listed together, including Hindi-Urdu; Indonesian and Malay; Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian; Punjabi; Tibetan, etc. The primary estimates used for this list are those of SIL Ethnologue. Other estimates will vary, and the numbers should be taken as no more than an indication of the rough order of ma...

Cerberus

China and their level of English.

its_me

21:40

you mean - - worse than china or better than china?

Matt Эллен

not comparable - you can't compare. Unable to say if it is worse or better.

its_me

(After seeing the chart, I want to learn Spanish!)

Cerberus

A great many people in India speak enough English to communicate. In China, the great majority doesn't speak any English at all, I believe.

Only some people with international connections or the upper classes in the cities, or people who speak with tourists regularly.

its_me

yeah... constant communication in a language is the key

Cerberus

And even among the latter two groups, I think most people will speak hardly any English at all.

@MattЭллен How was the English of the Taiwanese?

its_me

21:44

@Cerberus how's your spoken english? (how would you rate it) I see that you write very well

Cerberus

Eh I have no idea how to rate my own speech.

its_me

Bad - Good - Very Good (I would say native speakers are excellent)

Cerberus

I have this certificate from Cambridge, and it said my spoken English was better than my written English, but I disagree.

its_me

@Cerberus Did you study at Cambridge?

Cerberus

Nope, you could get it too in India, no doubt.

its_me

21:46

online test?

aedia λ

Indian English

Indian English is an umbrella term used to describe dialects of the English language spoken primarily in the Republic of India. As a result of British colonial rule until Indian independence in 1947 English is an official language of India and is widely used in both spoken and literary contexts. The rapid growth of India's economy towards the end of the 20th century led to large-scale population migration between regions of the Indian subcontinent and the establishment of English as a common lingua franca between those speaking diverse mother tongues. With the exception of the relati...

Cerberus

Certificate of Proficiency in English

The Certificate of Proficiency in English or CPE (as it is usually referred to) is the most advanced general English exam provided by University of Cambridge ESOL Examinations. The English level of those who have passed the CPE is supposed to be similar to that of a fairly educated native speaker of English. Most of the candidates that take the CPE are from South America. Examination parts The exam comprises five parts/components: * Reading (1 hour and 30 minutes) The Reading paper assesses the ability of the candidates to read and understand texts taken from a wide range of sources...

@its_me Nope, it takes two days, and you need to go to the British Council in your country.

its_me

okay.

Cerberus

If you fail, you spent € 250 for nothing, so make sure you get the test at the right level for you.

its_me

OMG! forget it! :D

Matt Эллен

21:47

@Cerberus In Taipei there is a good amount of English. Outside Taipei, even in other cities, there is not so much.

its_me

(at least not for now)

Cerberus

@MattЭллен OK that is what I would expect...how about in a bar in Taipei? Can younger people communicate adequately?

aedia λ

@Cerberus 19 minutes? I bet even I could fool someone into thinking, uhh, uhh, I can speak good for 19 minutes!

its_me

@aedia It's true. There are so many languages and dialects spoken in India that the usual way to communicate with people of other states is English

Cerberus

@aediaλ What? Is that how long the speaking test takes?

aedia λ

21:49

@Cerberus That's what Wiki sez.

Cerberus

I don't know, I think I could get a fairly good impression of someone's speaking skill in Dutch in 19 minutes.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus depends on how expensive the bar is.

Cerberus

If the subject obeyed my every command.

@MattЭллен Haha, I see.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Ja, meneer! rolls over

Cerberus

kittles

Now open that jar for me with your horn.

its_me

21:52

Hey, I forgot to ask. Do you understand all the words spoken in an english movie?

or the same applies for movies as well?

Cerberus

Movies are easier.

its_me

sure, but every word?

Cerberus

But I still miss a few words in Dutch films now and then.

its_me

sometimes they use totally new words (at least that's how it is for me - - my vocabulary is poor).

Cerberus

Probably a few more in English, but it is not hard.

its_me

21:54

yeah, not at all

(I could never understand a word from the background music played in movies)

Cerberus

It's complicated. Context and prior knowledge play a huge part.

aedia λ

2

its_me

yep

Cerberus

@aediaλ Haha, perfect! I love unicorn servants.

its_me

Anyone of you ever visited India?

Cerberus

21:56

Nope.

But it must be pretty, what with all those temples.

its_me

quite yes. But it's degrading quickly. Deforestation, open fire, etc

@Cerberus I once met with a person from NL via email >> internet chat. And then, everything was fine until I asked him about his height. He never spoke to me again. Never! Is that an offensive thing to ask in your culture, tradition or religion?

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