English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:11

@MrHen Are you come for our annual fête des chapeaux?

MrHen

@tchrist Hopefully not...

I'm actually here because someone kept asking followup questions to a long comment thread and I moved it to chat

And... as long as I'm around I figured I'd join the room :)

tchrist

Welcome back, Mr Hen.

MrHen

:)

Any spectacularly interesting goings on?

user116848

Hello @MrHen. Long time no see.

MrHen

Hello :)

user116848

00:20

I chatted with you like a year ago :)

tchrist

@MrHen ELL graduated and they've had elections.

MrHen

Heh, cool

tchrist

@Arrowfar He stops by every year or so.

MrHen

I periodically check on the Unanswered tab and cry a little

user116848

@tchrist Heh :-)

MrHen

00:22

Not a lot; just a little

tchrist

Because he really lives in Brigadoon.

MrHen

Well, post that one election I was in I got a new job and had a kid so... that's life.

tchrist

Two new jobs.

Because ELL have graduated, we can now more easily migrate questions thither.

MrHen

That's nifty

Cerberus

00:37

Hey!

Welcome back!

And congrats on ELL.

MrHen

Hey :)

user174558

00:57

When did ELL graduate?

user174558

The site still has the beta design.

user174558

Until now, I still cannot see the difference between ELU and ELL.

user174558

And yet others are proposing a third site, more elementary than ELL!

tchrist

@JasperLoy Where?

user174558

@tchrist Just on the ELL meta post, that is all.

SmokeDetector

02:05

[ SmokeDetector ] Manually reported question: does a period come after diolage by suzie on english.stackexchange.com

Mitch

02:36

@Leuchte That's a hard question because a lot of things that are labeled religious could also be labeled political (and vice versa: morals, laws of conduct, etc). Can you give a concrete example of the difference though? Like what is an instance of absolute political freedom and what is an instance that would be outside a limited religious freedom?

@MrHen These are not the hens you are looking for.

Jaz!

wie geht's?

user174558

Hi! 980 points already.

user174558

I like to edit posts until my rep is a multiple of 5.

tchrist

@JasperLoy 27.8 x 5

user174558

Not many people in chat this weekend. Reg and Rob seem gone forever.

user174558

The use of @ in communication these days is POISON.

user174558

02:44

LOL is much better than @. At least it means something.

Mitch

@JasperLoy what do you mean?

user174558

@Mitch Did you see the @ question on main? They even use it in business emails.

Mitch

@JasperLoy ?? what? goes to check

Checked. Yeah it seems dumb. a tech pattern that fell over into other unrelated communication. just twitter emulation. I am personally more bothered by people, in speech, making footnotes to their own comments by saying 'hashtag noonewilleversearchonthis'

@JasperLoy Rob gave a retirement speech about why he doesn't want to visit any more. Reg left a couple starred msgs. There may not be as many posts as a few weeks ago, but there seems to be more variety.

XPMai

03:22

hi, any moderators here?

tchrist

@Cerberus Thinking of you:

From here:

2

A: Space or no space before punctuation?

The style of punctuation has changed throughout time. Originally, it was quite random, but basically punctuation was generally defined as having a space on either side, but for spacing reasons, could always lose it if necessary on either side. Things eventually standardized a bit and so we ge...

@XPMai Probably not in the way you mean.

You can leave a custom flag if you need to contact a moderator privately.

XPMai

@tchrist How?

tchrist

@XPMai If there is a post that concerns you enough to contact a moderator, do you know how to raise a flag?

XPMai

I don't know how to raise the flag if my concern isn't about the problem of the question.

tchrist

Is this contact regarding something on the site?

XPMai

03:30

I want to enquire why my question is flagged for xxx reason, because I disagree with it.

tchrist

Oh, that may be something else.

user174558

There is no need to enquire. A flag is a flag.

tchrist

No Jasper, he is not using "flag" that way.

XPMai

@JasperLoy but it wrote a reason. And I want to ask why is it flagged with that reason so I can avoid it.

tchrist

XPMai, this is probably something that is public then, right?

I mean, is this something everyone on the site can see, or just you and the moderators?

XPMai

03:33

Yup, it's public. But I've no ways to discuss about a flagged question, I can only discuss about the question itself.

tchrist

@JasperLoy He's new to the site, and he might be using "flag" to mean something else.

@XPMai Then tell us which question it is so we can see what you mean.

user174558

Yes, tell us the details.

tchrist

Moderator flags are never public, so this is somehow something else, like perhaps a close flag.

XPMai

I'm using the technical word, flagged = reported

My question is flagged, so I'd like to discuss why it's flagged and how to comply with the rules.

tchrist

I understand. Could you tell us which question concerns you?

We may be able to help you.

XPMai

03:34

Sure, wait for a while.

tchrist

Otherwise, if it is public, you can always post to our meta.

MrHen

Are users typically alerted if their post is flagged?

user174558

No.

tchrist

@MrHen Absolutely not.

XPMai

This: english.stackexchange.com/questions/217525/…

I find that it's a good question, but I don't understand why it's flagged.

MrHen

03:35

0

Q: What are the difference between "prominent" and "VIP"?

The definition of prominent and VIP are same: an important person So if I say: Mai is a prominent guy of Australia OR Mai is a V.I.P. of Australia. Isn't the meaning is the same?

differences

XPMai

I can't find the answer simply by using a dictionary.

MrHen

(Just formatted the link so chat would preview it.)

tchrist

Yes, we can help you understand what happened there.

XPMai

Yeah, but it was flagged and closed.

I like the answer I received too.

I don't find it's unhelpful.

tchrist

YEs. It was closed with the reason that more research should be provided. We do not know what your understanding of those two words actually is.

A "prominent" person versus an "important" person.

But is your understanding of those two words?

XPMai

03:37

VIP = very important person

prominent = important person

It's the same.

tchrist

Ah.

XPMai

So what research do I need to show?

Actually I already "showed" my research with this sentence: _The definition of prominent and VIP are same: an important person
_

tchrist

Well, one idea would be to show some dictionary definitions that you looked up, and then explain how they seem to mean the same thing.

Well, not exactly. You have shown what you think they mean, but not why you might think that.

Prominent actually means something different from important.

I would have thought a dictionary would say that.

XPMai

dictionary.reference.com/browse/prominent?s=t Definition (3)

leading, important, or well-known:

It means the exact same thing.

tchrist

> A. adj. 1. Jutting or standing out above or beyond the adjacent surface; projecting, protuberant.
2. a. Standing out so as to strike the eye; conspicuous.
b. fig. Standing out so as to strike the attention or notice; conspicuous; distinguished above others.

None of that is "important".

It means they stand out.

They are noticed, or noticeable, or note-worthy.

XPMai

03:41

but Dictionary.com , definition (3) says "important"

tchrist

I'm sorry.

It isn't much of a “dictionary’, I regret to say.

XPMai

@tchrist What do you mean?

tchrist

There is of course an extended sense that lines up like that.

XPMai

@tchrist I don't understand the whole sentence.

tchrist

First of, people don’t actually call somebody a VIP unless they're in some sort of silly marketing blitz.

It’s more like slang. It's quite informal.

XPMai

03:44

oh...

but at formal meeting, there are VIPs.

like concerts

there are VIPs, there are Guest-of-Honour

tchrist

Be that as it may.

It still a bit sugary and self-important.

XPMai

@tchrist What does that sentence means?

tchrist

It means that a VIP line at a concert is just a marketing thing.

XPMai

you hover your mouse to my reply, and you'll see I was replying to your specific reply

tchrist

I know.

XPMai

03:46

What does "be that as it may" mean?

tchrist

Perhaps "nonetheless".

Or "what you have just said notwithstanding".

XPMai

I don't know if the word is slang or not slang. One way I can know is the existence of the word in dictionary.

tchrist

You would not talk about VIPs and prominent members of the community in the same register.

XPMai

@tchrist What register?

tchrist

Well, a formal register versus a casual or informal register.

XPMai

03:49

I see.

How do nonetheless and notwithstanding differ?

tchrist

Register means: Linguistics. A variety of a language or a level of usage, spec. one regarded in terms of degree of formality and choice of vocabulary, pronunciation, and (when written) punctuation, and related to or determined by the social role of the user and appropriate to a particular need or context.

XPMai

@tchrist This is weird. There's no such definition on Dictionary.com

tchrist

@XPMai Nonetheless is a standalone thing, whereas notwithstanding is a rare postpositive that goes after the entire thing.

@XPMai No, it isn't weird. I'm using an actual dictionary.

XPMai

Dictionary.com example sentence for *notwithstanding* is: _Notwithstanding a brilliant defense, he was found guilty. She went to the game anyway, doctor's orders notwithstanding._

It can be used like *nonetheless* or *nevertheless*.

MrHen

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/register

> Linguistics A variety of a language or a level of usage, as determined by degree of formality and choice of vocabulary, pronunciation, and syntax, according to the communicative purpose, social context, and social status of the user.

XPMai

03:53

@tchrist Your actual dictionary has it but my Dictionary.com doesn't.

tchrist

> 2. Following this, that, or a sb., in a syntactical relation corresponding to the ablative absolute in Latin. Also † not that withstanding.

1490 Caxton Eneydos vi. 23 ― This notwystondyng, alwaye they be in awayte.
C. 1500 Melusine 208 ― She was abasshed of the grete honour··, not that withstandyng she ansuerd in this manere.
C. 1555 Harpsfield Divorce Hen. VIII (Camden Soc.) 179 ― But, her worthiness notwithstanding, and that he had a fair daughter by her, he··was wonderfully tormented in conscience.

@XPMai That's because I'm using a real dictionary. Mr Hen has also pointed one out to you.

XPMai

ya, he posted right after I replied.

MrHen

:)

Sometimes you need to use more than one dictionary. There are different levels of dictionaries.

XPMai

@MrHen What levels?

MrHen

Depths

XPMai

03:55

@MrHen Which dictionary has the most depth?

And why is there such thing?

All dictionaries should be the same.

tchrist

That is not reasonable.

XPMai

@tchrist yeah.

tchrist

A student needs only a simple dictionary.

MrHen

@XPMai There can be a lot of specific meanings to some words. If you just need to look something up quickly, it is unlikely that some of the more technical uses are helpful.

tchrist

He may not require etymologies, citations, or historical usage.

MrHen

03:56

Some dictionaries also come with a history of the word and what other languages it came from.

Double-jinx?

XPMai

oh

This is complex.

How shall I learn new vocabs then?

tchrist

ʲⁱⁿˣ ⱼᵢₙₓ

@XPMai Mostly by seeing them used.

MrHen

Asking here is always good; the point tchrist was mentioning earlier is that it can be hard for use to know what you already know.

XPMai

If I learn all definitions, I'll become crazy. If I only learn one simple definition, I may miss others.

@MrHen yeah, I've this problem. Sometimes I forget the word, even though I know the word.

MrHen

It helps to mention what definitions you've already looked up.

@XPMai No worries; it happens to the best of us

Don't worry about asking questions. If it doesn't quite fit for the site we'll often still try to help.

XPMai

03:59

@MrHen What is the solution for this? It's annoying because this happen while writing, and I need to use as much vocab words as possible with minimal time spend.

Back to the question dispute, so the reason why it's closed because of the OP's presentation, and not the nature of the question itself?

MrHen

@XPMai I personally start with synonyms. Words that are similar but not quite and then use a dictionary or thesaurus to remember other similar words.

@XPMai I would phrase it as, "It is hard to know exactly what the nature of the question is because a helpful piece of information was missing." In this case, the research you already did wasn't included in the question.

XPMai

The nature of the question is the title of the question.

the main question is placed in the question field.

the description is just extra stuff.

MrHen

That extra stuff helps us answer the question, though.

XPMai

if you read my question only, without description, would you understand?

tchrist

So you do not understand when would use prominent to describe a person and when one would use important? Or you want to know about the usability of the slang term VIP in relation to those?

XPMai

04:03

@tchrist I didn't know the difference, because I thought they're the same and I was looking for a difference.

I know that everything can be explained in English, it's very rare to have things exactly the same.

MrHen

I wouldn't completely understand, no.

tchrist

@MrHen Your dictionary's definition is curiously similar to mine’s. Hmm.... :)

MrHen

But that's because I would start by looking it up in a dictionary to see what it said. And the dictionary I would have used probably would highlight the differences in a particular way. And then I'd think, "What else do they need to know?"

@tchrist ;)

For instance, sometimes people are more interested in the connotation of a word or phrase.

They know what it means but they want to know how the word feels

XPMai

Why an English word shares multiple meanings? This is makes it complicated.

each meaning should have their own word. Then we won't need to learn multiple definitions for a word.

tchrist

Language never ever works that way. Not ever.

XPMai

04:08

hey, regarding my flagged question, why you no reply?

tchrist

@XPMai This is not about machine-language instructions in a RISC architecture.

XPMai

@tchrist I don't understand the whole sentence.

MrHen

@XPMai That would make learning each new word like memorizing an entire book.

XPMai

Where can I discuss about the flagged question to a moderator? This is the same outcome as the other time I tried to enquire using comments.

MrHen

@XPMai Are you just trying to get the question reopened? Or are you asking why it was closed?

If you just want the question reopened, post a link to the dictionary you used when comparing the words

XPMai

04:13

@MrHen yeah, by right is like that. Many words already increase its complexity, multiple definitions in a single word increase its complexity even more.

MrHen

And copy the definitions into the post.

XPMai

I see. Fine, I'll do it.

Now I start to dislike this site because of its unreasonable rules.

MrHen

@XPMai But I thought you got an answer you liked?

XPMai

@MrHen but I don't like its rules. Do you find such rule fair? The rules seem to be moderating the OP, not the question itself.

MrHen

@XPMai It was closed simply because there was a request for more information. You mentioned that you already had that information earlier in the discussion just now. It seems reasonable to include that information in the question -- it helps those who are answering.

XPMai

04:17

yeah, I'll add now.

But the information is optional, not required. That's why i can still receive answers.

MrHen

Yes. Closing is not intended to be a punishment. In this case, it's just a request for more information.

The closing part isn't really related to your particular example. It's more relevant in other scenarios.

XPMai

@MrHen ???

MrHen

I mean: Your question wasn't explicitly singled out for closing. The request for more information automatically closed it because of how the system works.

It isn't very efficient

XPMai

@MrHen because of the non-specific "request", it counts against my penalty

I've added the 2 definitions in now, it's still closed.

MrHen

@XPMai Yes, that's true. The system tries to detect patterns.

@XPMai The people on the site will have an opportunity to reopen it shortly. You will have to wait a bit for them to take a look at it.

XPMai

04:23

@MrHen yeah, because everybody joins the "flagging game". When they see one flags with a valid reason, the others also happily flag for reputation, even though the flag isn't needed.

MrHen

@XPMai Who is everybody?

XPMai

the people who flagged by question

It isn't really necessary, although it would be great if I had added the definitions.

MrHen

@XPMai I know some of those people. They are not malicious people.

XPMai

There are instances where flagging for more information can be helpful, but not for this case.

MrHen

@XPMai Adding the definitions can certainly avoid this kind of thing.

@XPMai I don't think adding things like definitions ever hurts. It doesn't take very long to do and I always find it helpful.

XPMai

04:27

@MrHen The rules didn't write this, and I didn't know that this is a mandatory.

The rules only say you need to do research. Yeah, i did.

And research is very broad. How I know it's directing to the definition?

MrHen

@XPMai Then why wouldn't you share that research with everyone else? It seems like that would be helpful for those answering the question.

XPMai

If the flaggers want me to give definition, just say it and I'll copy and paste. No need to run around the bushes asking me to do research.

MrHen

@XPMai The phrase is broad because it has to apply to many different situations. You were asking about definitions so it makes sense that it would be researching involving definitions.

XPMai

@MrHen Usually, when talking, I'll always try to optimise my speech. I don't want people to hear a bunch of useless info from me.

@MrHen I don't know this. If so, it should be included in the rules as example.

MrHen

@XPMai That's a good suggestion.

@XPMai Well, as you get more familiar with what people are expecting, hopefully it will be easier to determine what is or isn't useful information. We aren't trying to be deliberately vague.

XPMai

04:34

Can I dispute a downvote?

I received a downvote, even though I think it's a good question.

The reasons they left are primarily opinion-based.

-1

Q: What are the differences between "impolite" and "unpolite"?

Definition of impolite in OD: not having or showing good manners; rude. Definition of unpolite in TFD: Not polite; impolite; rude.

differences

So the reason for my downvote is: _
"Unpolite" is not used by well-educated English speakers in the US. (Can't say about the UK or other places.)_

This is contradictory to the answer I received. The answer I received say it's archaic problem, not so-called educated or non-educated.

So because of that incorrect opinion, I received a downvote.

Anyone there?

Hello!

MrHen

Sorry, had to step away for a bit

No, you cannot dispute a downvote other than appealing to voters in comments.

I have to head out now.

You can always ask questions like these in chat and someone will swing through to help out.

Ooker

05:57

Hi, I remember that there was a hot question about the overwhelm of usage of ancient English in legal context. The answers were because they gave the most accuracy meaning. I've tried to search it back, but can find out. Can you help me?

user174558

06:56

@XPMai There is no reason for an upvote or downvote that needs to be given. The person who commented may not be the voter.

XPMai

07:13

@JasperLoy There is! The downvote might be prejudice against the OP.

52

Q: Why does legal English continue to remain archaic?

Perhaps this is a question for Law.SE if one exists, but I am asking here as there are other nice questions on English history. There is some historical development account presented in Wikipedia, but I find it grossly inadequate to answer the question. English has always been a language that b...

history archaic legal

tchrist

13:21

Someone must be hunting Wabbits.

Kit Z. Fox

Hmm?

Because it's vewy, vewy quiet?

tchrist

Wight!

Mitch

13:55

@Leuchte I have a quote!

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." -Noam Chomsky, linguistics professor and political activist (b. 7 Dec 1928)

Not that it's true or not. But it may give you some more perspective.

Also, in some repressive (or one might say extremely respectful) societies, saying anything bad about the ruler is punshiable by bad things like death. Thailand?

"Television? The word is half Latin and half Greek. No good can come of it." - C.P. Scott, 1936 http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/candlepwr/television-in-other-words/

Tweeted by Fritinancy on December 4, 2015 at 10:21 PM

Kit Z. Fox

14:11

@Mitch It's too bad that so many people seem to think "freedom of speech" == "freedom from consequences".

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox ha ha...freedom of speech does not mean obligation to say everything you think, like we're all gonna die slowly and indignantly and painfully

Kit Z. Fox

I saw that.

Mitch

ha ha

I make fun.

Kit Z. Fox

Like how many times am I going to repeat the same answer.

Mitch

Genau.

Kit Z. Fox

14:16

And it's always the same kind of user.

Mitch

Effing whiners

Kit Z. Fox

Chicken Little.

Mitch

Holy shit is the sky falling?

Oh I get it. You were saying they think the sky is falling.

Kit Z. Fox

It's OK. It was just a comment.

Mitch

!

Do you know what the deal is with Mari-Lou?

Kit Z. Fox

14:18

What do you mean?

Mitch

Contrary to most of the complainers, it sounds like a lot of her comments are being deleted because they are being dragged in by other people's inflammatory or really unwanted comments. I'm just guessing though.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm thinking how to explain this delicately.

Mitch

I know.

well, no, I don't know. But I get it.

maybe not for here.

Kit Z. Fox

MariLou is not shy and she likes to try to handle things herself.

Mitch

So in a different direction, would it be perverse to star the 'no' for chatbot when I've already starred 'yes' for chatbot? and not because I changed my mind but because it is complex?

Kit Z. Fox

14:23

@Mitch I'm not planning to bring the bot back unless we can figure out a clear plan for it.

Mitch

clear is hard.

Kit Z. Fox

like diamond

user116848

Good evening all.

Mitch

I've heard that 'they' can synthesize diamonds now for cheaper than it is to mine. Is that right?

@Arrowfar Good everything.

tchrist

Morning has broken.

Mitch

14:25

like the first something something

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Good time-of-day

user116848

@KitZ.Fox I think chatbot was fun. But it is your choice obviously. Also reading the transcript I gather that people don't want it back.

user116848

@Mitch That's a good greeting.

user116848

;)

tchrist

@Mitch cat

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:29

@XPMai Closing questions and flagging questions doesn't improve anyone's reputation. Only up-votes improve the reputation. Please don't take it personally if we ask you to improve questions.

Mitch

@tchrist The second one is the hardest

user116848

So someone told me my avatar is a bit cheesy.

Mitch

gears up for cheese puns

Yo' avatar so cheesy, it's like it's made backwards.

user116848

@Mitch This is a good cheese pun: What cheese do you need to be very cautious with? Carephilly.

Mitch

@Arrowfar I just looked up a site of cheese puns. I'm hypergroanating

I don't get this one: "My business making clothes out of cheese has gone bust. Turns out that fromage frays.". What is 'fromage' supposed to sound like?

Kit Z. Fox

14:46

@Mitch fromage frais = fresh cheese.

terdon

@Mitch Fromage frais.

Damned french spelling.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That one's not very gouda.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Munster calling the Camembert stinky.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox but that's not... oh forget it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

nobody says frais like frays though, do they?

Mitch

14:48

exactly

Kit Z. Fox

fraise would be like that, right?

Mitch

closer.

Kit Z. Fox

So that's local French.

I mean, here in Maine. Dunno about other places.

Fraiche sounds like fraise.

shrugs

Mitch

but nothing like 'frais', right?

Kit Z. Fox

I'm grasping.

terdon

14:49

Dunno what the Quebecois get up to, but fraiche sounds like fresh more than anything else.

Mitch

It's the kind of pun that adults make up for children.

and don't make sense to anybody

terdon

@Mitch No, it's the kind of pun that people who don't actually speak the language make up for themselves.

Mitch

so maybe there's something to dirty jokes

terdon

I had loads of things I found hilarious in French that were only funny to non-natives.

"But, come on! They sound almost identical! Non, they do not you silly pineapple"

Mitch

I find any joke with 'nacho cheese' pretty funny

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:52

@KitZ.Fox fraiche and fraise have the same sound for their ai but obv a totally different final consonant. And both are different from frais. The ai in fraise is like the i in ride, the ais in frais is like the eh in "heh"

@Mitch "Nacho cheese? Damn near killed 'em!"

Mitch

"Nacho cheese? I barely knew her!"

Kit Z. Fox

"Nacho cheese? She's your sister, she's your problem!"

Mitch

"Nacho cheese? If I did that I wouldn't need talcum powder!"

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I've given up. I don't have any expertise here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitZ.Fox Well, I think fromage frais is the answer, but it just falls flat for me because it only works if you pronounce the s which no French speaker would, and I struggle to think that anyone does, anywhere that phrase would be used. That's all.

Mitch

14:58

"Nacho cheese? I can see my house from here!"

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe it's an Anglicized thing in fancy kitchens.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Or English kitchens. they misread everything.

They insist on pronouncing it how it would be read if it were written English.

Kit Z. Fox

Crayme frayshe

Mitch

I blame the English

Kit Z. Fox

That's funnier if you can hear me say it.

Mitch

14:59

No, I heard

It was funny because of your accent

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…