English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

01:50

Hello, @YoichiOishi!

Welcome. Is there anything we could help you with?

Yoichi Oishi

Hi,`@tchrist. Thank you for your "Please reopen" message. Regarding this question, I posted the following question in Mod chat section this morning.

tchrist

If you posted it in mod chat, please don't post it here. :)

And you are very welcome. It seemed only right to me.

Yoichi Oishi

I found 4th reopening votes this morning. pls. see mod chat.

tchrist

I can't see ELU mod chat, only Teacher's Lounge. But that's ok. I'm sure we'll do the right thing and reopen your question.

If you wish to speak privately, we can.

Yoichi Oishi

02:08

Via e-mail, or by phone? I think now that I got 4 reopens, it'll be retrieved soon or later. But I personaly think there's tendency for top echeron users to wield off-topc vote, which is highly intuisive, subjective and can not be measured by objective scales, say numbers.

tchrist

I have a private chat room that's only for ELU moderation matters.

If this would fall under that. But perhaps it does not.

I understand what you are saying about how quickly things get closed. I don't mind when it is something that says "Is this right?" and just asks for proofreading help, but when it is so well-researched a question as yours always are, I feel it is a crime.

Your question was closed for lack of research, and yet it clearly shows that research. I do not understand why they did that.

Deal with it is a very rude thing to say.

Sometimes it may be necessary, but it is always harsh.

Perhaps the closer voters wanted you to cite some dictionary definition for deal that does not seem to match your expectations in how it applies to this instance.

This is the OED:

> 16. a. to deal with: to act in regard to, administer, handle, dispose in any way of (a thing); b. to handle effectively; to grapple with; to take successful action in regard to.

1469 Plumpton Corr. (Camden) 23 ― He said that··he wold deele with you & yours, both be the law & besides the law.
A. 1586 Sidney (J.), ― If she hated me, I should know what passion to deal with.
1661 Bramhall Just Vind. vi. 153 ― He so abated their power··that a Dean and Chapter were able to deal with them.
1737 Bracken Farriery Impr. (1757) II. 120 ― The Lungs are formed accordingly, so that they may the better…

I can see why that does not seem to quite apply here, but it is the operative sense by extension.

It means to figure out how to handle it.

Yoichi Oishi

Thank your coment, and I'm flattered with your last line. Actually I've gotten badges on 73% of more than 900 posts. So I think I know what's good questions and wrong (off-topic) questions. That's why I'm sticking to close votes, which I could esily neglect as just one of 900 questions.

tchrist

That sense you mention really is not clearly illustrated in the dictionary.

I am convinced that 16a applies here, but it isn't crystal clear and you were right to ask.

What you might do to appease the close-voters is to cite the senses from the OED or some other very reputable dictionary which you found weren't quite a perfect fit.

Yoichi Oishi

02:36

I found often in ELU site that a matter (of course in English) which interests non-native English speakers is uninteresting or self-explanatory thus off-topic matter to native english speakers. That's a problem of non-native English speakers to be in the community where native speakers voices are dominant and loud. But I accept it as 'reality of life' for those who wish to peek into western world with an oldman's sigh of 'satori' -realization.

tchrist

I think I understand. I have had some of those here in my second half-century now.

It is possible that you have not had the experience of being rudely told to deal with it in English.

It’s like saying "This is your problem to figure out; now, go away and don't bother me while you work on accepting the situation."

Trump is notorious for his imperious, even tyrannical manners. Ms Doud was mimicking him deliberately.

Yoichi Oishi

No. never. I so cannot measure how it is rude or harsh. Your "Trum is notrious for ... Ms Dowd was mimicking ...." line is the exact implication and answer that I was looking for in my question which I could not get from definitions in dictionaries, that close-voters demanded me to do.

tchrist. Well. thanks a lot for your help and input.

tchrist

I am sorry that you have had to experience this unkindness of Man.

You are always welcome. Please feel free to come any time. I know that many enjoy talking with you.

When your question is reopened, I will answer it using this chat for notes.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

04:26

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 thank you! :D

XPMai

14:00

Hi, any English professionals here? I've a 6 days unanswered question and I don't know what to do except offering a bounty. However, I'd lose some privilege if I do so since my current stage is *developing*.

Can someone here please answer this question? http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/268614/how-do-treaties-and-pacts-differ

Thanks!

barznjy

14:12

hi

XPMai

hello

Mitch

15:27

@XPMai looks reopened now.

@YoichiOishi yours has been reopened

XPMai

@Mitch I don't understand, what did you help me?

Mitch

@XPMai I don't know everything. My comments on your meta post was solely about bounties and thresholds and features.

XPMai

@Mitch Then what did you mean by "reopened now"?

Mitch

Then I actually visited the question and it looks like a legitimate question with actual research, way more than the usual crap "gimme da definitions!"

XPMai

^_^

Mitch

15:32

@XPMai Oh. It wasn't closed. I was mixing up things (also note that I also make mistakes)

Dan (a high rep person here) was just being annoyed with your behavior of gaming the system.

One would preferably not do a null modification to 'bump' it, but rather do some cleaning up, rewording, moving around, etc. something nontrivial.

and the second downvote was probably a 'me too'

The motivation for 75 rep being the threshold is that the designer probably didn't want people with low rep to blow the majority of their rep on a bounty. The alternate routes of bringing it up in chat or a post on meta are very reasonable alternatives if you can't or don't want to do a bounty

It seems you're new to the site and need to get a little more reading experience here to know expectations/culture.

XPMai

15:48

Then why no one "me too" on this answer: meta.stackexchange.com/a/7054/303377

This answer made me to "game" the system, but technically speaking, it was really a grammar mistake.

As for the bounty, that question is not so advanced, so I believe because of visibility issue that's why a bounty would be a waste. And the points I earned are hard to get...

Avinash Raj

I would like to work in your company. Reach me via email avi.......com.

XPMai

I really feel very upset for the downvotes because they aren't about my question, but about opinion of how I "advertise" my question. And, I'm not an impatient person, I did wait and wait... up to 6 days! Luckily with grammatical issue, I edited in an effort to give it a little bit visibility, the whole community flames me.

Avinash Raj

Is the above sentence correct?

XPMai

@AvinashRaj ???

oh, that's your question

Avinash Raj

@XPMai ^^^^

How I modify the above?

XPMai

16:02

My English also isn't so good to judge that, but based on my knowledge, it's grammatically correct.

Mitch

@AvinashRaj Yes, it is correct.

@XPMai Your meta-question and the downvotes and comments there should convince you that your perception of this issue is counter to everyone else's.

XPMai

@Mitch Yup, because they're all biased on my method of "marketing". The downvotes are for other reasons, not even related to the context of the question itself.

Mitch

1) a downvote on a meta post means that people disagree, not that it's bad
2) a close as duplicate means it is considered by others that it has been asked before. So you should read the prior question to discover your answer rather than expect anyone to reply with a new answer
3) it is the culture here to not require a comment explaining a downvote. Some people might, but often they are attacked unreasonably.
4) gaming the system is frowned upon.
5) though your responses are not unreasonable, they do have the slight nuance of ... entitlement (like you expect people to do things a certain wa…

@XPMai people aren't as consistent with the rules as we'd like them to be.

@XPMai You should probably upvote @tchrist's answer since he actually put some research into it.

XPMai

16:19

1) My Rep will drain!
2) It's clear that it isn't duplicated but they insist
3) I don't insist, but I insist for an answer on invalid downvote reasons like these.
4) I gamed accidentally because I left out the sentence literally, perhaps I skimmed through and couldn't understand. http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/268614/how-do-treaties-and-pacts-differ#comment595406_268614
5) My statements are all well-written, since now, I haven't even use a single vulgar even though I've been oppressed by the whole community.

Just because of the way I had used, they "declares war on me" and find (invalid) reasons to invalidate the questions by abusing their authority. I was happy-ing to reply until they kept insisting.

In addiction to the fact that I used it because **6 days unanswered** question. What's wrong with bumping an old low visible question?

I've received a good answer from you, I appreciate it. And you can see, it's very basic, not necessary for a bounty.

@Mitch done. I thought you was referring to something else.

Mitch

16:47

1) rep doesn't depend on meta votes
2) You have not made it clear how it might be different. And in the end, it doesn't make a difference. The older question will get you the same answers as yours.
3) insisting: that's the 'entitled' vibe, that you expect others to do things for you.
4) OK
5) again, entitled sounding. "I am good and don't do bad things. So why do people oppress me?" The first is not up to you to decide. (you can try, but other people may not be convinced)

Re 2) everything about your question seems identical to the extremely overhashed "Why won't people explain their downvote?". The only difference is the one line about 'it's just because of its OP' and 'downvotes based on opinions like reporting it to a moderator'. This is very unclear and doesn't sound different from the usual complaint.

I understand the problem because I've spent time looking into the origination. You think that someone should explain their downvote if it is not because of content but because you gamed the system (or some other thing not about content). That may not be an appropriate use of voting (maybe/maybe not), but it certainly doesn't require an explanation (sure it'd be nice but that's different).

XPMai

17:14

@Mitch So can't I say it's an abuse?

Cerberus

18:39

@Robusto I think people find wooden shoes comfortable enough. I don't know, I've never worn any.

@tchrist Everybody thinks belted pullovers are silly.

I mean the normal pullovers that those boys were wearing. I posted the image right there.

tchrist

19:02

@Cerberus Oh, I know. It was the various belted sweaters that were so outrageous, both for their belts proper and for the type of weave. Still, the colors and patterns of the boys’ sweaters were nonetheless characteristic of that era, albeit perhaps more subtly.

Cerberus

Characteristic, perhaps, but now en vogue.

crl

19:26

vogue la galère

tchrist

@Cerberus Vintage vantage recycles.

crl

recycles pinnacle bicycles

Yoichi Oishi

20:21

@tchrist. Good morning. It's 5:15 AM Tokyo time. I found that my question about Trump's 'Deal with it" was unlocked without resorting to my 5th usr vote.

tchrist

Oh good! Would you still like me to answer it?

Yoichi Oishi

20:43

A lot of thanks. I think your 'Reopen' suggestion in the Chat assisted the reopening. Beside, your explanation on this usage of the phrase was really helpful and enlightning. Such working input is never obtainable through dictionary. I still wonder why close voters thought I saved the efforts to get specific information and judged it off-topic. I've never voted close, but for mod job. I gave down-votes only twice or thrice since joining this communiity.

I want to be as much lenient and goodwilled as possible because English language enthusiasts - regardless native or non-native - are all human, and I spent 82 years on this belief.

tchrist

It’s hard enough to keep the humanity of one’s fellow in mind when you’re interacting with them in real life, but the computer seems to make it much worse — nearly impossible at times, at least for some folks. People say and do things to one another when communicating online that they would never contemplate in a face to face encounter.

Cerberus

Quite so.

Mitch

21:01

@tchrist Wait...whats a 'belted' sweater? Is that a sweater with a ... a belt? That doesn't make sense unless it is a onesie.

Yoichi Oishi

It didn't occur to me that computor changes your personality. That's true. I understand.

Mitch

@XPMai arguably a misuse but probably a very common use so you'll not likely get anybody to think it is an abuse. You can say something all you want but that doesn't mean others wil know what you're talking about. (that's the entitlement again). You'd probably want to word that as ' So would people call this an abuse of the purpose of a downvote?' Then that would sound like a more reasonable question. Which of course people would reasonably say 'no, that's par for the course.'e

@YoichiOishi It would be 'bad form' for you to unlock your own question (using your mod superpowers to be self-serving)

@YoichiOishi Lots of interpersonal constraints are just not there with a keyboard.

Yoichi Oishi

21:16

@Mitch. Ididn't unlock my question in question. But I had an incidence of unlocking my 'closed' question without knowing the rule that Mod's single vote is equivalent to 5 votes. I was sternly blaimed for abusing mod's power (if it worth the name of power) at that time. But I was told that it's O.K. for a mod to vote at the 5th turn. I wonder whether my memory is correct or not.

Mitch

whether it's worth a single vote or 5, the last vote or not, it just seems wrong to vote on your own things.

Yoichi Oishi

Corection: for a mod to vote at the 5th turn. → for a mod to vote Re-open on his or her own question at the 5th turn in order of Reopen votes　.

tchrist

Can one normally vote to reopen one's own question at all?

I confess to not knowing. :(

Ok, yes you can.

That would be why the fifth one would be ok: it would be the same as a binding vote.

But it no longer matters for this question.

Yoichi Oishi

@Mitch. Is there specific writen statement about vote right of reopen in Mod's Rule? Is it a 'legal' view or moralistic view?

tchrist

21:34

I believe he means it from the respective of the appearance of a conflict of interest. It isn't actually a mod-related thing; rather, does it look bad for any user to cast a reopen vote on their own closed question? And I have no certain answer to that question.

It only becomes mod-related if it is a vote that counts differently than if it were a non-mod. But the fifth vote is the same.

I have only one closed question, which I just put to the test to see whether it was possible. I am not really in the habit of asking questions that get closed, so I did not know.

But now of course it looks bad.

Arguably.

Yoichi Oishi

21:47

@tchrist. There was a lot of good learning from this time question, language-wise and procedure-wise. I know you on question and answer, but this was the first time of communicating personally. It was good and encouraging. I've seldom joined the chat. Because it takes more time in constructing English sentences and texing then than you native speakers. But I feel like joining moore often by taking advantage of this opportunity.

tchrist

@YoichiOishi You are very welcome.

I understand the challenges of chatting in not your own language, how much slower it is.

I will soon be doing more of it, since they went and appointed me moderator of the Portuguese Language site. It is not my first or second language, just something I’ve overlaid on my second language. Reading is fine but it is very hard for Spanish not to leak out into my Portuguese. I will have to read more books.

As with you, it is the informal stuff that I am missing.

But pt.SE is not 100% Portuguese the way pt.SO is: its user experience is still English, and we accept questions in either language, although we prefer them in both if possible. It has drawn people from pt.SO though. It will be interesting to see es.SO start up this autumn.

About 1% of Brazil is of Japanese descent.

I do not know the Japanese community there, although I have enjoyed eating at their restaurants. :)

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…