English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

17:17

@tchrist Sí, pero voy a dejarlos ir.

user116848

Yay! I got 'civic duty' silver badge on ELU.

user116848

Now I want 'Electorate' gold badge.

Robusto

Talk to me when you get Legendary.

english.stackexchange.com/help/badges/27/legendary?userid=2303

user116848

Oh boy! That's tough :)

Robusto

17:35

Mar 17 '12 at 19:52, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ah yes. The Enlightened badge. Note how @Robusto is so cool, he has more Enlightened badges than you have badges.

user116848

Nice!

tchrist

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/258101/…

Robusto

@tchrist Te di tres. De nada. Más sería sospechosa.

Cerberus

17:54

> ... updated terms and conditions that came into effect on August 1, just in time for Windows 10:

We copied and pasted the Microsoft Privacy Statement and the Services Agreement into a document editor and found that these "straightforward" terms are 22 and 23 pages long respectively. Summing up these 45 pages, one can say that Microsoft basically grants itself very broad rights to collect everything you do, say and write with and on your devices in order to sell more targeted advertising or to sell your data to third parties. The company appears to be granting itself the right to share yo…

In short: if you install Windows 10, you're fucked.

2

Microsoft can take and use your data for any purpose.

tchrist

@Robusto Gracias. No os entregué en enlace esperando medallas personales, sino para que las ganen los demás.

Cerberus

> "web browser history, favorites, and websites you have open" as well as "saved app, website, mobile hotspot, and Wi-Fi network names and passwords".

> Windows generates a unique advertising ID for each user on a device. This advertising ID can be used by third parties, such as app developers and advertising networks for profiling purposes.

> Your device location, data from your calendar, the apps you use, data from your emails and text messages, who you call, your contacts and how often you interact with them on your device. Cortana also learns about you by collecting data about how you use your device and other Microsoft services, such as your music, alarm settings, whether the lock screen is on, what you view and purchase, your browse and Bing search history, and more.

> Your voice input, as well your name and nickname, your recent calendar events and the names of the people in your appointments, and information about your contacts including names and nickname.

skull patrol

:O

Cerberus

Windows 10 takes all your data, including calendar appointments, contacts, browser history, etc. etc. and sends them to Microsoft every day: techdirt.com/articles/20150802/07341031825/…

2

skull patrol

Thanks for the link @Cerberus

Cerberus

17:57

You can probably turn some of those things off, but the rest will be funnelled to Microsoft.

@skullpatrol Good luck!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:12

@Cerberus That's exactly what Google does with Android... why does anyone care?

user116848

@skullpatrol Hi skull. You are back it seems. Nice avatar.

skull patrol

Hi pal @Arrowfar

Thanks

:D

crl

@Cerberus seems so winaero.com/blog/…

Cerberus

18:37

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why do you think people care?

At least you can block those things on Android.

And it's not your main computer.

Robusto

Whoa, tornado warning here.

skull patrol

A twister?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Judging by the online ink spilled over this, and the words used ("spying", etc) people seem to care.

44 mins ago, by Cerberus

In short: if you install Windows 10, you're fucked.

Even you seem to care

You could have written: "In short: if you install Windows 10, your data is backed up like it is on Google's Android and Apple's iOS"

Cerberus

@crl Good link!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes; my question was not rhetorical.

skull patrol

:O

How could you not ask a rhetorical question?

Cerberus

18:42

heads spinning

You know, it's not good if you have three heads spinning.

skull patrol

This room is the epicentre of rhetoric :-)

Cerberus

Sometimes.

skull patrol

It used to better.

*be

:-/

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

why not just edit the message?

skull patrol

To late pal

Cerberus

18:50

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How is your phone's battery?

Ample?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Oh, you mean, What reason do I think people have for caring about this? Not, what reason do I have for thinking people care.

Cerberus

Yes, exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It lasts the day, unless I play games all day, then it doesn't. Same as every other phone I've ever used.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Although the answer will probably be the same, right?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK.

I have installed Amplify and disabled Google's location checking when the screen is off.

That saves me hours of wakelocks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, as to that, I'm not sure why they care? Maybe they would care about Android and iOS if they thought about it? Maybe they're just surprised because finally there's a Windows upgrade they want that has new features they'd like, but they're suddenly suspicious of Microsoft?

@Cerberus Ah, I use that feature. Google checks the location and from time to time does smart things with it.

Cerberus

18:53

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does that answer your original question?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, Now?

Anything else?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, it doesn't. I'm just speculating. I don't actually know why people care. It's odd that when Google or Apple does something, nobody says boo, but when MS does that same something, everyone's all "oh noes, MS is stealing your data and snooping into your life"

@Cerberus yes, the "smart lock" feature that disables the key lock when I'm at home.

And location-based reminders.

skull patrol

in The h Bar, 29 mins ago, by Danu

@skullpatrol I don't go to the internet for my privacy :P

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, Windows is people's main computer. And they paid for it, sort of, unlike Android.

And people are already up in arms about Google's privacy violations; they used to be less upset with Microsoft, probably because Microsoft used to invade your privacy less on Windows desktop.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why not let that operate based on SSID connected, as I do?

The same for other location reminders: don't they have Wifi there that you connect to?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "Smart Lock" doesn't have that feature, and the Secure Settings app broke in Lollipop and I never checked to see if it got fixed.

Cerberus

Secure Settings broke in Lollipop? Oh, dear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:59

@Cerberus I don't typically connect to random wifi networks nor do I keep track of what SSIDs are at what locations. And I can't set a reminder based on an SSID anyway.

@Cerberus Just the screen unlock setting, AFAIK, but that was the only one I used.

It might even be fixed by now?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I use the Xposed module No Lock Home.

On Kitkat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I used Tasker, previously.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You could with Tasker...

Jinx!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not really.

Cerberus

I feel so liberated, being able to use Takser again!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, you can set reminders based on SSID connected with Tasker?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:01

With google's built-in reminder tool, I just say "remind me when I get home" or "remind me when I get to X location" and it reminds me when I get there.

@Cerberus The point is that I cannot do it nearly as easily with Tasker as I can with true location-based locations.

For one thing, I'd need to know the SSID at my location.

Cerberus

Why not?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What is the SSID for my grocery store?

Cerberus

I suppose the voice commands would require a bit of a set-up.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

do they even have wi-fi.

Who knows?

Cerberus

Ah OK, that you'd have to check.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:02

But with real location-based reminders, my phone can just remind me when I arrive somewhere.

Cerberus

And it cannot do that if it only checks your location when the screen is on?

Or based on Cell towers?

I imagine all of that would require a bit more setting-up, but it should all be perfectly possible, saving your privacy and battery. Two very important -ies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If it only checks location when the screen is on then it won't work to actually remind me to do something when I arrive somewhere if I have to turn on my screen to do it.

Cerberus

19:22

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, then you could have Tasker make Amplify (there is a plug-in) enable location tracking while you're near a certain cell tower, or something.

My point is that it can all be done while saving battery and privacy, also known as BNP.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

geez. So instead of just saying "okay google, remind me to buy milk when I get to the grocery store" I have to program tasker to turn on or off a feature when I near a certain cell tower? Then program tasker to remind me when I get to a certain location?

I mean, I have no idea whatsoever what cell towers there are near me.

Dunno where they are, how many there are, what their ranges are, none. nothing at all.

AND I need to know all of that before I can set a reminder.

seriously, listen to yourself.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No: you keep using Now as you're used to, except that location tracking gets enabled and disabled in the background. You only have to set that up once, then add cell towers per location (when at the store, have Tasker scan for cells and enter one or two of those as conditions).

You merely need to tap a few buttons while at the store to enter the cell location in Tasker.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A different subject: do you happen to know of a solution for instant/push two-way synching a folder between Android and Windows?

I am devising one.

But, if you happen to know of an existing solution...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

besides dropbox and drive and all those others?

@Cerberus So to enable location-based reminders for any particular location, first I have to scout that location and choose a suitable cell tower, so that my phone can scan for cell towers so that it knows whether or not to scan for location.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Umm those are not instant? Actually, they don't sync two ways at all, mostly, do they?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's needlessly complex and only works for places you've previously thought to scout.

Cerberus

19:37

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, they cloud-store data the instant you are done writing it, more or less.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but if your BNP are worth something...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

they don't push the data onto the phone automatically.

Cerberus

That's what I meant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dropbox might have a feature where it does that.

Cerberus

19:38

Besides, they can't e.g. synch my photo folder on my phone.

It doesn't.

There are tons of apps available to try to solve this issue with Dropbox, but all they do is provide some button that you can press to synch a folder, or have it done every 15 minutes.

I don't want wasted battery, and I want instant, so I need pure push.

When I delete a photo on my computer, I want that synched immediately to my phone, by push.

And vice versa.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Google Photos does that.

just for photos though.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you sure it is two-way and instant?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I want all files...

What I want is exactly what Dropbox, Drive, etc. can do on normal computers: instant two-way synch of a folder of my choice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it's pretty fast, whenever I'm using photos.

Cerberus

But it's only one way, isn't it, like Dorpbox.

I used to use that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

dropbox pins files that are "favourites", so maybe you can favourite a folder?

Cerberus

19:48

And what happens when you delete a photo in your Android gallery? Does the deletion get synched? And when you delete a photo on your computer?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can't.

Only files.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus if you delete a photo in Google Photos the deletion is synced. The Photos app replaces Gallery.

Cerberus

Okay, and the other way around?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Drive doesn't do two-way sync that I know of. Only uploads are instantly synced.

Cerberus

OK there you go.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, if you delete it from Google Photos on the web.

Cerberus

19:49

And from the folder on your computer?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Photos doesn't, that I know of, sync with a desktop folder. I've never really explored that.

Cerberus

OK.

Well, my solution does all of that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you are coding something?

Cerberus

Instantly, using existing push.

It only requires a little bit of coding (I had to learn some Python): most of it uses a handful of existing programmes, like Tasker and Pushbullet.

I have switched to Owncload for synching files and photo's with my phone, by the way.

You have full privacy, and full control.

My Owncloud is hosted with a reliable German provider, for free (limited storage, though).

Took me very little time to set up, and the desktop client is fine.

Some of the Android clients have instant photo upload out of the box.

Owncloud has 30-day version saving etc.

Faheem Mitha

I just posted this in the OH

in The Overlook Hotel, 22 mins ago, by Faheem Mitha

@C2R Should it be "There was silence in the theater as Aeneid, the Roman mythological drama, was approaching its climax scene." or "There was silence in the theater as Aeneid, the Roman mythological drama, approached its climax scene."?

For my education, what are the tense names for "was approaching its climax scene", and "approached its climax scene"?

I've never been properly educated. And I can't Google something like that.

Mitch

20:06

@FaheemMitha google 'tenses english'

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch ok

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Past continuous and past simple.

It is the Aeneid.

And I would say its climax, not its climax scene.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Yes, so someone else observed. I suggested "climactic scene", but "climax" is better.

@Cerberus Thank you.

Cerberus

Good.

crl

@Cerberus tada! I'm on win10, with edge for the moment

looks good for the moment

Cerberus

20:14

@crl Oh. My. God.

You are so advanced!

> I wonder if the whole "opt-out" approach to privacy were reversed and people had to "opt-in," if those who had first to interpret the various 45 pages of Microsoft's new Privacy Policy and Service Agreement, then navigate the various pages, screens, applets and application settings to turn off their privacy, I wonder would they complain, and would the rest of us then call their complaints sensationalist and/or "un"-paranoid<wry grin>?

Faheem Mitha

Windows. Ugh. Sorry, can't control myself.

Cerberus

Yeah.

I wish I could do without it.

crl

gotta disable all those sound notifications..

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

> With all the options marked as off, using only a local account, do we know what personal information might be still set to, along with the existing data that microsoft will still exchange? Reading the descriptions for each of the privacy options terrifies me about how glib they are about these sentings (e.g. ".. and send microsoft and trusted partners some data to improve location services" - who decides trusted in this instance)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "Also, I do not see a "none" option for feedback, only "Basic," which sends a list of my installed programs, among other things. Perfect information for someone who wants to use zero day exploits to infect my machine."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yeah, because MS is always handing out your IP address and the list of installed programs to hackers.

Cerberus

20:20

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Big companies get hacked all the time.

And maybe it passes on the information to other parties.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Look, if you think MS is giving out personally-identifiable lists of software to hackers, you may as well assume they already control your entire PC, which they do, and furthermore you have to assume you're already hacked.

The only solution for someone that paranoid is to never ever run Windows.

No privacy policy or systems settings or opt-in is strong enough.

If you think MS is just backdooring your system and selling all your info to the chinese or the NSA then why are you running Windows at all? How can you trust anything they say?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Straw man.

We're only talking about the things they openly hone home here.

However:

> CheekyMonkey wrote:
At the risk of being accused of wearing a tin foil hat I was rather curious about something I noticed after disabling Cortana's online options and enabling all the privacy options on a clean install of Windows 10.

It's fairly easy to reproduce probably using either the standard Resource Monitor in Windows (just type "Resource Monitor" in Cortana to fully appreciate it). In the Overview tab look for the process "SearchUI.exe" which is clearly labeled "Search and Cortana application" in its description. Check the checkmark to filter it out in the other panes.

Some very interesting comments here: arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not a straw man at all. People don't trust Microsoft and yet they run their operating system. It's a huge contradiction.

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

We're only talking about the things they openly hone home here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The only solution for someone that paranoid is to never ever run Windows.

8 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No privacy policy or systems settings or opt-in is strong enough.

Cerberus

20:30

To give you the self-evident answer:

Of course we have to trust Microsoft up to a point; we have to trust it to not lie to us in a very open and direct way.

Otherwise, we cannot use Windows.

In this case, we trust Microsoft not to phone home things that it says it won't if you enable option x.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sure. But the vitriol about these product features is unprecedented.

You yourself described windows 10 users as "fucked". Because MS now has a list of what programs you have installed? Seriously? As if Google Play doesn't? Apple iTunes?

Even if you don't want MS to know that list, which is a fair point, you're hardly "fucked".

Cerberus

Remember the other things I said?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, I stopped listening after you said "fucked."

It's all just blah blah blah.

Cerberus

It is all the things I mentioned, not just the applications. And a computer is not a phone: you do more stuff on it. And Windows is a paid product, not free like Android.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Windows 10 is free. It's a free upgrade.

Cerberus

20:38

And I am equally concerned about my privacy on my phone, by the way: Google is just as bad as Microsoft.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's just as free as Android

Cerberus

That is not free.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it's not free?

Cerberus

I'm on XP, I can't get it. And, if I buy a new computer, whoever built the computer has paid for Windows.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Windows ships with your new computer, and the upgrades are free.

Android ships with your phone, and the upgrades are free.

Cerberus

20:39

45 secs ago, by Cerberus

And I am equally concerned about my privacy on my phone, by the way: Google is just as bad as Microsoft.

It's just that Microsoft's being as bad as Google is new to people.

As Google, as Facebook, as Apple.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Great. So you've uninstalled the google apps from your cyanogen phone, I take it?

Cerberus

The EU should fire up its regulation engine to protect our privacy.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wish I could, but I need them. I limit their permissions as much as I can.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Your point about a phone being less important than a desktop is false, by the way. My phone is way more important than my desktop these days.

Anyway, I wish the reporting on the "privacy" issues was clearer and more level-headed. MS sends tons of data to their servers, including (gasp!) your open tabs! Oh, wait, they're just backing that up for you. They're not printing it out and passing it around the office to laugh at you.

Presumably the data is encrypted so that it's difficult or impossible for anyone but you to get it.

Honestly the way people are reacting to this news, you'd think they never realized that Google can see what you're searching for.

Cerberus

Just because one company is bad, doesn't mean the other company is fine if it does the same thing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We have no idea what Microsoft does with our tabs and all our data. What if they sell them to third parties?

What if you get offered higher aeroplane prices because you happened to have other tabs open?

That is not unrealistic.

What if MS gets hacked or the data stolen from a third party, or some connection tapped?

We simply do not know.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Presumably the data is encrypted so that it's difficult or impossible for anyone but you to get it.

Cerberus

20:50

And the same applies to Google, absolutely.

30 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Big companies get hacked all the time.

But I have to go, picking up some chairs.

Hopefully the chairs will not phone home about my sitting habits.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am heading out too. ttyl

Cerberus

Bai!

Faheem Mitha

22:22

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sounds like a plan.

@Cerberus hone -> phone?

Faheem Mitha

22:33

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not everyone runs the MS operating systems.

@Cerberus Exactly. What does the MS terms of service say about this, if anything?

@Cerberus lol

@Cerberus Do you use MS OS's, then?

For work?

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