English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:06

@tchrist Debes hacerlo.

@JohanLarsson Nice work. But can't you get the menus to work?

Robusto

00:24

@tchrist, I'm watching a movie from Spain now and I really can't understand the scent at all. It's like their tongues do all the work so they don't have to move their lips at all.

tchrist

@Robusto Interesting. I find the peninsular accents the easiest to understand

Robusto

*accent

Stupid tablet.

tchrist

Never let a computer "autocorrect" errors. It is too dumb.

Live with a red squiggly or whatever, but never let it have its way with your words. Better to live with your own mistakes than with its.

Robusto

00:39

A wise policy.

Cerberus

01:04

@tchrist You would not say the same thing if you had to type on a touch screen.

Correcting the errors of the computer is far less work than correcting your own errors by hand on such a device.

tchrist

01:21

Foolishness.

I don’t play piano with mittens on.

And I will not.

Cerberus

The alternative is to drag around a physical keyboard in the metro.

And when biking.

tchrist

You do not need to type then.

I have typed on those touch-screen airport things. I never touch a wrong key. But if I did, I would backspace it.

Do they make touch-screen pianos? Why or why not?

Cerberus

01:40

@tchrist Except when you need to text someone that you are underway!

@tchrist Those screens suck utterly.

And they are huge.

So they are completely different.

If you want to type at speed on a normal, modern touch screen, you absolutely need some form of auto-correction.

tchrist

Then fuck it.

I’ll put up with autocorrection on my piano first.

Cerberus

I'm not sure the airport staff will allow you.

tchrist

I strike what I mean to strike.

You just need to practice more.

Cerberus

Touch-screen piano applications certainly exist; but of course any device with haptic feedback is far superior. Just as with computer keyboards.

@tchrist But slowly.

tchrist

amazon.com/Czerny-School-Velocity-Opus-Piano/dp/0739010646

There, that should help.

If not, try this.

Either you need more practice or the technology is fundamentally unusable. You decide.

Cerberus

01:46

Guinness WR for Hands-Free Typing (Swype)

►

Look at that paralysed man writing with his mouth.

He couldn't do that without autocorrect.

And neither could I.

tchrist

Must I?

Cerberus

Just watch a few seconds.

It starts at 0:50, my link.

tchrist

The idea that I should be forced to look at my fingers while I am typing is fundamentally obscene.

That is not typing.

That's fucked up.

Cerberus

You don't need to look.

I often don't.

But, remember: typing on a large, physical keyboard is always far superior. This is just about choosing the best option in severely limiting circumstances, i.e. on a small touch screen.

tchrist

It is more important to be able to type than to be able to confine yourself to be stuck in a claustrophic parody just so you can patty cake with people who aren't there.

I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.
I will not type with mittens on.

And I will not let the computer decide what I have typed.

That's my job.

Or my yob.

Cerberus

01:51

You can use both devices.

tchrist

If I want to say yob, I say yob.

Nothing and no one shall gainsay me.

Cerberus

I use my PC keyboard on my phone whenever I have it on hand.

tchrist

Cr8zy

Cerberus

But, when I don't, my choice is between the phone or nothing.

tchrist

Nothing is better.

Cerberus

01:52

And nothing is still less productive than my phone's touch keyboard.

tchrist

It would kill me.

Literally.

So I will not put up with that parody.

Cerberus

But you can read back what you have typed and correct it.

tchrist

I don't make that many mistakes typing.

Cerberus

You would on a small touch screen.

tchrist

And I damned well expect to be able to type as fast as I fucking want to and am able to.

Cerberus

01:53

Unless you were typing very very slowly.

tchrist

No.

You do not have the zen of keyboarding.

You are not in the moment, letting your mind sail fast and free and far removed from the physical.

You are a prisoner.

I am sorry, but you are.

Cerberus

Our bodies are our prisons.

It's very Christian.

tchrist

I would not put up with a 3-year-old child’s toy keyboard when I wanted music.

That is what you think is acceptable.

It is a joke.

Cerberus

At least it works when you have nothing better on hand.

If you correct the mistaken autocorrections, you're golden.

tchrist

Why do you need to type all the time?

No, it cannot do that.

I am smarter than it is.

I type what I want to type.

Cerberus

01:56

Well, suppose I am walking around a French town and I want to find the museum.

tchrist

Do see the mistakes I make?

What autocorrector could replace complete words?

Cerberus

Of course we are smarter. That's why we can correct it before submitting what the dumb thing suggests.

tchrist

None. It cannot know what I am thinking.

Cerberus

Well, Swype actually also tracks word pairs and trios: it sometimes corrects a word that is a few words back.

But, sure, that's why you always correct it.

tchrist

For people who cannot type nor think.

Cerberus

01:58

You have the final say.

No, for people who want a decent speed.

tchrist

I DO NOT WANT TO CORRECT ITS MISCORRECTIONS!!!!!!!

Cerberus

And still 100% accuracy.

tchrist

Upon my own head and responsibility this falls.

Cerberus

You do want that, because it is faster than correcting your own mistakes.

tchrist

I accept my mistakes.

Cerberus

01:59

You have the final say.

tchrist

I don’t make mistakes like you are talking about.

Cerberus

You may accept them, but that makes you really 300% slower.

tchrist

I know how to type.

I type very fast.

Cerberus

Not on a tiny touch screen.

tchrist

Faster than almost anyone I know.

The fuck that tiny screen, Dick Tracy: get yourself a real watch.

It is not reasonable.

Typing means typing quickly and accurately.

Cerberus

02:00

And yet you wouldn't stand a chance against a child if you refused to use autocorrect on a small touch screen. And that is with zero mistakes in your and her final submissions.

tchrist

I am in command. I am not a hunter or pecker, and I will not be slowed down by inferior parodies.

Cerberus

You don't need to fuck the tiny screen.

Oh, well.

tchrist

Foolishness.

Cerberus

You'll see!

tchrist

I have standards, you know.

Cerberus

02:01

One day, I will demonstrate it to you.

tchrist

If I cannot type, I shall not.

I think I shall Beethoven tonight.

Play.

Cerberus

I shall find the museum des beaux arts in Marseilles, and you will not.

tchrist

It will channel my rage.

Cerberus

Wise.

Isn't it close to bed time?

tchrist

Don Dorsey - Rage Over A Lost Penny

►

Cerberus

02:04

By the way, why is art masculine?

Ars is feminine.

tchrist

arte

Noun: arte m, f (plural artes)

art
arte
arte f (plural artes)
árte
arte f (plural arti)

(7 more not shown…)

Adjective: arte

vocative masculine singular of artus

El arte poética is most decidedly feminine!

See the -ica?

That means it’s feminine.

Don’t let the el distract you. It is from illa not from ille.

> The gender is variant and it may be masculine or feminine. In some fixed expressions (such as arte abstracto “abstract art”) it is masculine and in others (such as arte poética “poetry”) it is feminine.

Cerberus

Sure, but I see "m, f".

And I was of course talking of the beaux arts.

tchrist

It can go both ways.

But the French are confused.

Cerberus

So are the Spaniards.

Ars is a strange word to have become masculine.

tchrist

You would have El Instituto de Bellas Artes

Not *Bellos. That would be wrong.

And those are pretty not warlike.

Cerberus

02:09

But arte abstracto still sounds weird.

tchrist

Cold. Impersonal.

Not sensitive.

Gender is more complex than people imagine.

Cerberus

The zoo of Amsterdam is called Artis Natura Magistra.

Commonly Artis.

It's not really relevant, but it is nice.

tchrist

El Palacio de Bellas Artes is the cultural center of Mexico City.

Fine Arts are always feminine.

Cerberus

Mais non pas en français.

tchrist

It would be freaky otherwise.

The French are not known for their sensitivity in these matters.

Museo de Bellas Artes

Museo de Bellas Artes may refer to: == National art museums == Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes (Buenos Aires), Argentina Museu Nacional de Belas Artes, Brazil Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes (Santiago de Chile), Chile Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes de La Habana, Cuba Museo de Bellas Artes (Caracas), Venezuela == Municipal art museums == Museo de Bellas Artes (Bilbao), Spain Museo de Bellas Artes (Córdoba), Spain Museo de Bellas Artes (Málaga), Spain Museo de Bellas Artes (Murcia), Spain Museo de Bellas Artes (Santander), Spain Museo de Bellas Artes de Sevilla, Spain Museo de Bellas Artes ...

They cannot be *bellos. It simply doesn’t make sense.

artefotografica.pt

Cerberus

02:13

Tutte l'arti sono feminine alla Latina.

tchrist

Pretty sure arts are feminine in Italian, no?

Cerberus

I wish I could speak Italian.

Yes.

tchrist

I don’t think it is a heteroclit.

Cerberus

In which language?

I think the noun should be heteroclite, though.

In Latin, ars is entirely as one would expect, no surprises.

tchrist

> A fornire il contributo essenziale affinché la poesia venisse considerata un'arte fu Bernardo Segni che nel 1549 tradusse in volgare la Poetica di Aristotele, opera in cui lo Stagirita già annoverava la poesia tra le altre arti.

That doesn’t say anything darn it.

Actually, it does.

The Italians are kind enough to use an apostrophe for a missing -a.

If you lived in Venice for a year, you would speak Italian.

Cerberus

02:19

They don't use an apostrophe for masculine, right? At least not with uno.

Just un, right?

tchrist

> Charles Batteux nel 1746 definisce, nel suo libro *Le belle arti ridotte ad un unico principio*[1], il sistema delle belle arti, indicando cinque arti in senso proprio - la pittura, la scultura, la poesia, la musica, la danza - a cui associava due arti connesse - l'eloquenza e l'architettura - il cui carattere comune risiedeva nell'imitazione della realtà per il fine di creare oggetti belli.

@Cerberus Right, you don’t. You just apocopate it.

Same as Spanish.

Cerberus

@tchrist At any rate, you can also look at le altre there.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

> Hence also, absol. in mal. part. as in Gr. τέχνη for cunning, artifice, fraud, stratagem: "haec arte tractabat virum", Ter. Heaut. 2, 3, 125 (cf. Ov. H. 17, 142)

tchrist

It is better marked.

Cerberus

02:21

I wonder what they mean by mal. part.

tchrist

Huh.

Cerberus

Using ars for "cunning, fraud" is nothing unusual.

tchrist

The Artful Dodger.

Cerberus

But mal. part.?

Yeah, it shines through in some modern expressions.

Like artifice.

tchrist

I keep wanting to read mal. as something bad, but it probably isn’t.

Cerberus

02:22

It could be.

> part., participle.

tchrist

> el arte bella, las artes bellas, la bella arte

Cerberus

This is all I get from Lewis & Short.

Probably not right.

tchrist

No mal.?

Cerberus

Nope.

> in mal. part., in malam partem.

Ahah, it was under i.

tchrist

Today Lorin climbed up the wall to the second story balcony to bring me a mouse clenched between his jaws.

I told him that he was welcome to simply serenade me next time.

Well, he climbed up the wooden pillar as though it were a tree trunk.

@Cerberus Bad enough.

Bad looking, despective, something like that.

Cerberus

02:30

Apparently, it means in a bad sense, pejorative.

tchrist

Right, despective means pejorative.

Cerberus

Napoleon's opposite.

Yes.

tchrist

Despective is much rarer.

Cerberus

Despicio.

To look down on.

All senses.

tchrist

I wouldn’t think of it but figuratively.

despectivo

Adjective: despectivo m (feminine despectiva, masculine plural despectivos, feminine plural despectivas)

pejorative...

Cerberus

02:32

Then you should despect upon your cultural forebears more.

tchrist

> despectivo, va.
(Del lat. despectus, desprecio).
1. adj. despreciativo.
2. adj. Gram. Dicho de una palabra o de un sufijo: Que manifiesta idea de menosprecio en la significación del positivo del que procede; p. ej., carca, libraco, villorrio, poetastro, calducho. U. t. c. s. m.
3. adj. Gram. Dicho de un sufijo: Que se añade a dicho positivo.

Cerberus

Descend from your ivory tower.

tchrist

Cedar.

Cerberus

Upon the despicable.

Why cedar?

Does it burn?

Is ivory illegal where you live?

tchrist

Well the pillars that Lorin climbs look like cedar. They are actually of redwood made.

The everlasting tree.

If you cut down a redwood and make a log cabin out of it without letting the wood age, you will have to trim your cabin for a couple of years.

It is not for nothing that it is named Sequoia sempervirens.

A redwood felled by the winds is not killed.

The branches pointed up simply become new trees.

This is quite remarkable when you dwell upon it a moment.

Cerberus

02:37

Really?

Even from logs?

Using water stored in them?

tchrist

It does not die easily.

Cerberus

Presumably they will also form emergency roots?

tchrist

Yes, they form those, you call it that.

Cerberus

Still, it seems a crime to fell an ancient tree.

tchrist

Of course.

The other redwood, the sierra redwood, does not have this property.

Cerberus

02:39

Or do they have young redwoods?

Planted?

tchrist

But it is differently mighty.

Cerberus

It's 4:39.

tchrist

Coast redwoods are ubiquitous in northern California. They grow very very readily.

They have young redwoods.

They are very fruitful(?).

You know what fairy rings are, right?

You often find fairy rings of giant redwoods, maybe ten yards across.

That used to be a single tree.

The tree was somehow felled.

And it kept growing in the ring that the old tree stood on.

They are constantly sending off runners, little sprouts.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating words in body: Essay Formatting Question: Use of examples by Spartan on english.stackexchange.com

tchrist

> Redwoods may also reproduce using burls. A burl is a woody lignotuber that commonly appears on a redwood tree below the soil line, though usually within 3 metres (10 ft) in depth from the soil surface. Burls are capable of sprouting into new trees when detached from the parent tree, though exactly how this happens is yet to be studied. Shoot clones commonly sprout from burls and are often turned into decorative hedges when found in suburbia.

See, they make hedges out of the sproutlings!

To stand beneath a tree almost 400 feet tall will take your breath away.

It makes you feel puny.

Like nothing else.

Cerberus

02:45

3 mins ago, by tchrist

And it kept growing in the ring that the old tree stood on.

Not sure what this ring actually was.

tchrist

The burls.

Little shoot offs from the part of the tree beneath the soil.

Cerberus

But rings?

tchrist

Well, imagine a tree 30 or 40 feet in diameter.

Cerberus

So you mean a ring of burls forms around a tree, and then the tree dies?

tchrist

Yes, but the tree does not die.

It is felled.

Cerberus

02:46

And the ring consists of the little trees that grew from the burls, and it remains?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

They never die?

OK.

tchrist

And the part that fell down makes a line of clone trees, while the original root stock is a fairy ring of burls that each become new clone trees.

They are immortal until killed.

They do not perish of old age.

They eventually fall over, and start again.

Cerberus

But they fall spontaneously, eventually?

Do the burls only become independent when the central tree falls?

One would think not?

tchrist

They are clones.

Not sure what independent means.

Cerberus

02:50

Otherwise, its fall would uproot the burls and damage or kill them.

tchrist

But the root system no longer has to feed the giant.

Kill?

No, that does not kill them. Each part is alive.

Cerberus

If you pull a mini tree attached to your appendage high up into the air, it will presumably die.

tchrist

If you hang it in the air, yes.

If you cast it upon the loam, and it is a redwood, often it will live.

Cerberus

Or is it that the giant tree breaks someplace above the ground, when it falls?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

02:52

Oh.

tchrist

But it doesn’t matter. The entire root system can rotate 90 degrees if it is undermined and the tree turns the roots as it falls.

Cerberus

So will its children eventually separate themselves from it before it falls, or only after?

tchrist

It will still live.

The children don’t really separate.

They have a shared root system.

They are clones.

Cerberus

OK.

I would rather say it is a single organism, then.

tchrist

Yes. It just looks like a fairy ring of distinct trees.

But each is the same thing, the same genes.

And fed by a common root system.

Cerberus

02:54

But the central stem can die at some point.

And then the children will be cut off from it.

tchrist

The stem does not feed the children.

The roots do.

And the stem can be snapped off.

Cerberus

Yeah.

tchrist

That will not kill it.

It will send down new roots.

It really is the most remarkable tree.

Cerberus

But so they only separate by force, not spontaneously.

tchrist

Right.

Cerberus

02:55

OK.

Now I can go to bed.

tchrist

Heh.

Dream of giant trees.

Cerberus

I hope that I shall.

I like giant trees.

tchrist

They are real. It is impossible to get over.

Cerberus

Even more...dynamic ones as in Vance's Son of the Tree. Am amusing story.

tchrist

Do not know it.

treesofmystery.net/redwood-trees.php

Cerberus

03:00

It's not exactly literature, but it is enjoyable and imaginative. And, as always, Vance's use of the language is superb. books.google.nl/…

Only a preview.

tchrist

Ok.

Thanks.

> Elephant or not, the over-extended root system of this special tree exemplifies how redwoods manage to “hang on to life” despite changing terrain angles and levels of soil - they simply reach out further and make whatever “adjustment” they need to make in order to steady or right themselves and survive - showing a remarkable adaptability and flexibility in their struggle to exist.

Cerberus

The trees in Vance's story were probably inspired by redwoods.

tchrist

Just because it has been felled does not mean it intends to go quietly into the dust.

See how the branches have each become their own tree?

Cerberus

I thought so.

tchrist

I think he was a west coaster.

> A fallen Redwood will commonly send shoots up as new trees and indeed this is how many trees get their starts.

I don’t know any other tree that falls in the forest and lives on for millennia to come.

> A live redwood that is knocked over will attempt to continue growing via its limbs. If undisturbed, the limbs pointing up will turn into trees in their own right, and this is indeed the source of many row groups of trees.

> Cathedral or family groups of trees are simply trees that have grown up from the living remains of the stump of a fallen redwood, and since they grew out of the perimeter, they are organized in a circle. If you looked at the genetic information in a cell of each of these trees, you would find that they were identical to each other and to the stump they sprang from. They are clones!

> The redwood burls are another survival strategy. Their growth is held in check by the presence of chemical signals in a living redwood. If the tree should die, or even be stressed, say by low rainfall or fire, the chemical signal weakens or vanishes and the burl will burst forth into verdant life.
Burls kept in a shallow pan of water will grow almost indefinitely. They can also continue on to become a full grown redwood tree. At the very least, if watered they will produce a lovely fringe of green pseudo branches and make a very interesting looking and unusual house plant.

> In the 30's to the early 60's redwood was used as a separator between the plates of electrolytic (auto, truck and airplane) batteries. The wood could withstand the battery acid and still retain its shape.

Cerberus

03:06

tchrist

Niven did The Integral Trees. Simmons had similar things.

Cerberus

Ah I have read that one.

I liked it.

Long ago.

Vance is more frivolous.

tchrist

Well, yes.

Simmons is more hm operatic.

> If you connect these two facts, you will come to realize that some of those trees out there could be the last in a 20,000 or 30,000 year (or more) line of the SAME tree reproducing itself over and over again! Genetically, they are the same tree that grew from a seed all those centuries ago! Would it be proper to place the age of one of these trees as the true age of its unchanged genetic material? I don't know, but these amazing trees are truly ever-living.

Cerberus

How often do they produce seeds that take root?

tchrist

Well, 20% of trees come from seeds.

The others are clones.

> Burls kept in a shallow pan of water will grow almost indefinitely. They can also continue on to become a full grown redwood tree At the very least, if watered they will produce a lovely fringe of green pseudo branches and make a very interesting looking and unusual house plant.

Cerberus

03:10

I see.

> intaglio

Vance already uses a word I do not know on the third page or so.

tchrist

Live in Italy for a year. :)

Cerberus

> orphrey

tchrist

It’s like some sort of bas-relief thing.

Now that one, I do not know.

Cerberus

> morion

Vaguely heard of.

This is all page 2.

tchrist

Something the conquistadors wore.

Un morrión.

Special kind of helmet.

Cerberus

03:13

Yeah.

tchrist

There’s a word like it I can’t quite catch.

Some confectionary.

I have to go collapse. My 30-day average is about 6.2h per night. That is very bad.

One or twice ok, but for 30 days you start to fall apart.

It is subtle.

I turned in my ohmyfuckinggod ticket today.

I can sleep now.

Cerberus

@tchrist Macaron?

Sleep well! That is indeed too short.

Macaroon?

> metadyne

This sounds like a word Vance made up.

Cerberus

03:45

> dumortierite

This is probably a real word...

Johan Larsson

08:38

@Robusto I have no content to navigate to :)

Need to produce some bs

SmokeDetector

11:07

[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted website: What is the white smoke-like fog called? by facebook-1435325990099550 on english.stackexchange.com

tchrist

12:22

@Cerberus Turrón.

Turrón

Turrón (Spanish: [tuˈron]), torró (Catalan: [tuˈro], [toˈro]), torrone (Italian: [torˈrone], Brazilian Portuguese: [toˈʁoni]), turrone (Sardinian: [turˈrone]), torrão (European Portuguese: [tuˈʁɐ̃w]), turon (Tagalog: [tuˈɾon]) or nougat is a confection, typically made of honey, sugar, and egg white, with toasted almonds or other nuts, and usually shaped into either a rectangular tablet or a round cake. It is frequently consumed as a traditional Christmas dessert in Spain as well as countries formerly under the Spanish empire, particularly in Latin America, Italy and the Philippines. == Recipe... ==