@Jasper I rarely like musicals, either

@aediaλ What kind of book was it, if you can recall?

@JSBᾶngs I don't think I remember it that well, but I know I owned a discarded copy (my library was small and often discarded the abused hardcovers when they got newer versions) and I read it multiple times. I think it was kind of depressing.

@Jasper: you should seriously read the Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Malazan Book of the Fallen, and Harry Potter. Oh, and Dune. And the Lord of the Rings.

@Jasper I can't say I've seen an opera, but I would choose to watch an opera over a musical

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's a hefty thing you just piled on there.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 no, don't start with WoT. it's a very bad intro drug for SFF. so is Song of Ice and Fire, probably

i personally hate WoT... read the first four books, then gave up and never looked back. everything that's happened w/ the series since then has convinced me i was right

@aediaλ Oh, I'd forgotten about that book. That was a good one.

@GraceNote I think the main character's family life wasn't good at all, she was lonely among her peers, and her silver eyes were some kind of birth defect. She learns there might be a few other kids like her and runs away or something to find them. I think I could really empathize with her and that's why I liked it.

@aediaλ So both books had to do with silver eyes? Huh.

@JSBᾶngs Ok, something easier: Mistborn: fun though not the best writing in the world.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 haven't read it, but may be a better choice

Harry Potter is definitely good entry-level SFF

@JSBᾶngs And IMO books 4, 5, 6 were the best part of WoT.

@GraceNote No, no, that's the one I know the name of

@aediaλ I were asking about the other

@GraceNote Got it now :)

@GraceNote I don't like reading a book unless it has 1000 pages and a dozen accompanying volumes :)

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Have you read the Hyperion books by Dan Simmons?

But everyone, a warning: please don't read Terry Goodkind. That man needs to be convinced to stop writing.

ok, they don't have the accompanying volumes, but they make for a long collection

@MattЭллен yes. I liked them but there was something missing that I can't quite explain. kinda like, a bunch of stuff happened and then the characters are all "ah, ok, voila!" and I was like ".. wha..?"

I have only read the first two, I keep meaning to pick up Endymion

@MattЭллен don't bother. hyperion and fall of hyperion are extremely awesome. the latter two stunk

@JSBᾶngs I liked them. But they're even a bit more "wha?" than the previous two.

that's a shame :(

It's a bit like how I felt reading "God Emperor of Dune" and its sequels. So much was unexplained.

I've been told they're very different from the first two Hyperion book.

@GraceNote Ok: The protagonist is about to turn 13. The popular kids are picking on her. Something happens on the way home from school that's weird, or her first present is just a boring lamp or something. She's upset but then she realizes later that when she's angry she made something happen by looking at it and wishing it would move. From there it's a bit of a morality piece about not using one's abilities to hurt others (like getting back at the popular kids) but entertaining nonetheless.

books shmooks. who needs plural anyway?

;)

hey everyone - check out this contest we're sponsoring stancarey.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/…

@aediaλ Can't say I know that one

That said you somehow made me think of Princess Tutu and while I can figure out how, that's still an impressive segue.

yep

he posted it this morning

he did link to the limerick question we talked about though english.stackexchange.com/questions/40876/…

@aediaλ You just reminded me of the "Dark is Rising" series, another easy (young adult) fantasy series worth reading. Helps if you know Arthurian myths first.

Boo!

@GraceNote I have never seen that. (Which is not surprising. I've seen very little anime... I've watched it with friends sometimes but then I tend to want to pause every five minutes so I can ask what's going on and why the characters are doing things, and they tell me to be quiet or watch the previous series... :P )

@aediaλ It's an interesting watch. I recommend it because it is quite an interesting piece in general.

@Jasper thanks! :)

@Jasper aww, thanks :)

@Cerberus Hola!

I submitted a limerick to the competition. It needs to be moderated before it's shown

Ahola!

hi @Cerberus :)

Hai!

@Matt cool! I'm sure it will show up soon

@Jasper We don't all have that luxury

@Jasper I don't see it

@Jasper Most of us have not developed our "Find an internet user's real name" skills as much as you have :)

@Jasper do you work for the CIA?

It's rather easy, you know.

The link on my profile?

Not that I would disparage Jasper's stalking skills in the least!

aye

You haven't had qualms calling me by my display name.

a yam who a yam

@Jasper Works for me, then.

I have no trouble using nicknames at all.

I half-forget real names soon enough.

@MattЭллен You yar, that you yar.

:D

42!

that's an exclamation mark, not a factorial sign

Not random, but a number close to the hearts of many

gasp

immediately heaves The Guide in Jasper's direction

That, too!

It is the answer to the ultimate question of life the universe and everything.

You need to read this book. It's got "Don't Panic" in large friendly letters on the cover.

I don't think I've loved a series of books so much as I love The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

a trilogy in five parts

Oh, that's too bad.

@Jasper I think it's a joke :D

Somehow I doubt that Jasper will enjoy THHGTG

@Kitḫ I don't think so

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I know

@MattЭллен No, you wouldn't. How could you? You lack the experience to judge.

@Kitḫ do I?

@Jasper Well, that's bananas, but the reason you won't like it is that it is humour, not sci-fi, but a particular kind of humour, and many many people don't enjoy it.

@MattЭллен Don't you? ;P

@Kitḫ :D

it's true, there are many book I want to read and some I probably never shall :(

I've decided it's an uncountable noun ;)

@Kitḫ that's because fish is the plural of fish

@MattЭллен I like it.

@Jasper No. Consider "many fish in the ocean."

@Kitḫ That's just a countable noun whose plural is the same as its singular

@Kitḫ wow. time travelling edits. that was not the plan

waves hands Sure, sure.

I have many milk

see, it works!

:p

damnit

@Jasper WARNING DON'T GO THERE awooga! awooga! awooga!

schtop, schtop, schtop, this room is not ready yet

@Jasper That's not true.

Vaguely.

awww kittens

Let's talk about the "meaning" of "words" some "more".

:D

@aediaλ ...what even is the question?

@GraceNote I can't really tell, but I think it's gen ref and also not really even English.

@MattЭллен Want!

@Cerb is Wiktionary right?

I'll ask @Cerberus. He knows dead languages.

Waah my work blocks your kittens!

I've voted NARQ

@Cerberus soooooo cute :D

@MattЭллен Also a delicious choice.

@aediaλ Yes!

@MattЭллен Thanks, man.

disk library -> italian -> french -> discotheque -> disco etymonline.com/index.php?term=disco

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yep.

@Cerberus well, you too, but I meant the kittens

So it sounds like... what, a "false friend"? Is that it?

Yes.

Greek diskos = disk.

Greek thêkê = chest

Bibliothêkê = book-chest/case => book stash => library.

And discovery comes from dis-, "un-" and cover.

Uncover me.

@Cerberus Diskothêkê = CD case? Where is this going?

we're all going out dancing?

Yay!

@MattЭллен Yes, yes, yes!

yay!

I'm glad we all agree!

@aediaλ Yes, sort of; but the people who made up discotheke probably thought theke meant "building" or something.

Modern formations are often incorrect, sadly enough.

@Cerberus ... OR they were adapting it from bibliotheque where its meaning had expanded past the original greek? shock!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But but... that is now allowed!

@Cerberus Every time a greek root gains new meanings in its new host language @Cerberus sheds a single tear from each head.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I do indeed.

If you want to use Greek, you must know it.

Let me ask you a question.

I know Greek intimately.

if I'm to make Cerberus Tear Ale, I'm going to have to get to work on these words!

What do you think of the German word Handy, "cell phone"?

@Kitḫ the question is, how many greeks?

Is it not the ugliest word ever?

@aediaλ Done.

@Cerberus But I'm not using Greek when I adapt "bibliotheque". I'm using French.

In fact it is so grotesque that it becomes fun.

Handy is indeed grotesque

yes

@JSBᾶngs It would be easier to name the ones I don't know.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But it's still a fairly recent loan word in French too! Everyone knows that it's Greek!

@Cerberus It seems odd to me. But it's a similar word in Chinese: 手机, or "hand machine".

@Cerberus It could come in handy if you wanted to say you've got your handy handy?

as an english speaker, i'm also appalled by making-off as a malapropism for making-of which has somehow become standard in german and some other barbaric foreign tongues

@Kitḫ It's a lucky position to be in; to know what you don't know

@Kitḫ How can you name the ones you don't know?

@MattЭллен Also, funny.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, the problem with Handy is that they are using an "English" word that is not even English. I see it happen in Dutch too and it makes me cringe. Unless it's so frequent that I get used to it.

@MattЭллен Kit's been in lots of lucky positions

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Because there aren't any.

@aediaλ What if you have paws, huh? It is so discriminating against dogs.

@Cerberus Yeah, but... so what? They're not speaking English. The Japanese do that too, they have a whole category of words that are of English origin, but were never words in English

@JSBᾶngs Haha, do they really use that? Cool.

@Kitḫ yikes.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Those make me puke in Dutch.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 See how that is humorous? :P

@Cerberus How does one puke in Dutch?

The most barbarous sin against style.

@Kitḫ kots

@Cerberus Not ananas?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 this bothers me a lot less, because the nihongoization makes them generally unrecognizable

@Kitḫ No, that's all other words.

@JSBᾶngs English is just as guilty of using foreign words "incorrectly". Hell, we use ENGLISH words incorrectly, that's why our language is such a mess

@JSBᾶngs That helps, until you get to know this system of thingamazation, and then you're screwed. Your eyes will fall out of your sockets whenever you read anything. Or so I imagine.

@Cerberus i find that understanding kana-style english words is enough of an art that it provides a delightful moment of frission when i actually recognize one. it's not like "handy", where the word is written in the latin alphabet and everything, but is just being grossly misused

@MrShinyandNew安宇 A beautiful mess though

The thing is, if you do it right, loan words don't bother anyone; if you do it wrong, they will make some people cringe for eternity.

@MattЭллен Well, yeah. I love English because it's so random. But I suspect it's one of the hardest to learn.

@JSBᾶngs Yeah I know, and I am absolutely not close to even beginning to understand it myself.

Nah English is easy.

@Cerberus Only pedants who insist on etymology matching current meaning

@MrShinyandNew安宇 There are many.

Most of my friends would agree.

@Cerberus But not enough.

@Kitḫ Alas, no.

Eeeek! Ants!

Pedants are the flag-bearers of culture.

If that is a valid metaphor.

shakes hooves fiercely

What are ants doing in my office?

@Cerberus Also the upholsterers of language.

licks hooves

@Cerberus No flirting in chat.

That tickles!

@Kitḫ Haha, I would have gone with up-holders, but yes.

@Kitḫ licks you

@Cerberus I thought upholsterers was funnier.

It was!

@Kitḫ and more apt.

Perhaps so.

Hmm, I am pretty apt.

But who wants a bare metal chair?

language is upheld by its speakers, full stop.

@Cerberus BDSM enthusiasts

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Pedants are often important speakers with a following.

@Cerberus what? no. give me 10 good examples

@MattЭллен I suppose so... but at least they usually confine themselves to basements!

@Cerberus and speak perfect English

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Stephen Fry, Henry Fowler?

That's only 2.

And Stephen Fry would disagree with you.

@MattЭллен Probably! But the basement is sound proof.

@Cerberus Oh... you mean "important (to pedants) with a following (of pedants)" :)

Miriam Webster

@Kitḫ They always shun the label.

Oxford English

@Cerberus There's a clip...let me find it.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes. And art is greatly influenced by those thousands upon thousands of pedants.

@Cerberus He admitted he was a pedant, but now has learnt better

yes

There.

Let Stephen Fry put you in your place, poochy!

Hah, it is in the nature of pedants to deny their being pedants.

@Cerberus teehee And the best part of all of this is that I sympathize and partially agree with you. But also not.

To deny their pedantry, even.

I like being pedantic sometimes. But I get bored too quickly to carry on too long

He's just saying he doesn't like to correct people, and that he changed his mind about certain pedantic rules. But I bet you 100 % that he will still stick to countless other pedantic rules. As you all do too.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ditto.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I appreciate it. And also not.

@Cerberus rubs tummy Have a cookie.

Yay!

Now fix my code!

@Cerberus Here's two more since @Kit only fed one head

See y'all later :D

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't get along with Sinister.

The question is just, which things will you dislike? And B. what are you prepared to do about it? We all have different answers to these questions, but we have them nonetheless.

And the middle one was sleeping last I checked.

No, it was pondering the decline of our language, blah blah....

All of them. B. Have sexual relations with them until they agree with me.

@Kitḫ I vigorously disagree with your dislike of all of them!

I wish I could solve the problem that way, but it's not allowed.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's not allowed. You will simply have to agree with me.

@Cerberus But I thought you were unattached?

@Kitḫ love it, but the words moving around make me barf

@Fx Yes, that is a problem.

@Kitḫ No, but what with bestiality laws and all...

now that one was hard to get!

@Fx Wow epic!

@Fx Nice!

I can't believe it's only silver :(

@Fx Woohoo!

I think the mistake some pedants make is the claim that there exists some objective and unchanging "rightness" and "wrongness" in language. Of course not. But most pedants know this very well, and they just consider writing an art, in which certain elements can be ugly and others beautiful.

@Fx What did you have to do for it anyway?

@Cerberus reach rep cap 50 times

@Fx I'm still at 41

@Fx Oh God, that is a lot.

@Cerberus But is it ugly or beauty when the Greek thêkê = chest becomes enlarged to "building" in some other language and then comes to English as "discotheque" through yet another language?

Enlargements are just unaesthetic.

Can't we just appreciate what we have?

Oh, wait. I mis-understood the question.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't know, it depends. In the case of theke, I personally don't like it.

@Cerberus how about "trapeze"? which of course means "table" in greek

Yeah, well, there it's a whole word: much better.

Flying tables makes perfect sense. If you squint at it.

But cutting off one half of a word, changing its meaning, then passing it on to a third language... and what for? Why not use some simpler word?

@Fx Well, considering what the Gold badge is...

@Cerberus well that's not really what happened.

I also hate the word euro, but... I suppose I will have to bite the dust some day.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No? Wasn't this done with theke?

@Cerberus etymonline.com/…

(It doesn't have to used as a separate word to be passed on as a separate lexeme.)

Makes a lot more sense than floggin' molly.

biblioteca -> discoteca ->discothèque -> disco

Ah OK, so the French changed the meaning of discothèque as a whole. Why? I don't like it.

Well, that was an unfortunate chat skip.

so biblioteca is "a place with books", where place maybe was once "chest" but grew to "building" and then once you had a place with records, -teca is already Italianized, so they coin a new word, then that word spreads to french then english, but shifts to the local spelling/pronunciation

It says it was borrowed from Italian discoteca.

yeah

So the french expanded the meaning of the word from "a place with records" to "a place with records where you dance"

seems logical to me

(I'm using the word "place" loosely here)

I have no problem with the step from "store of disks" to "building that functions as a store of disks".

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, I object to that step, because the store part is thrown out entirely. That is far too sudden for my taste.

@Cerberus But in French a "bibliotheque" is a place where you go to get and read books. Why wouldn't you listen (or dance) to records at a discotheque?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Because the main function "store" becomes almost irrelevant in discothèque.

I think etymological connections are culturally very important.

I can imagine theke changing from "store" to "building" in a gradual process; but not in a sudden spasm.