English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jasper Loy

00:19

It is 10/10. Four years ago, on 10/10/10, Ubuntu 10.10 was released.

Cerberus

02:22

@JohanLarsson Haha he does recognise it for a cat.

The rolling over is odd, that looks more like playing.

user116848

03:38

hello

Ice Boy

05:11

hello

username901345

07:10

hi

you native

?

@Mitch What do you mean? magnets for attracting cats? They are all sex videos... What exactly did you mean by that?

Ice Boy

08:22

@username901345 do you want me to explain?

username901345

yes if you can

Ice Boy

yesterday, by Mitch

@IceBoy When I google for XXX, all I get are the most bizarre advertisements for what I can only guess are weight gain for roosters and magnets for attracting cats.

another word for "rooster" is "cock"

"weight gain" would mean increase in size

username901345

magnets for cats?

Ice Boy

another word for "cat" is "pussy" or female

username901345

Wow...'tis quite a bawdy witticism!

in a positive way

of course

Thanks

Ice Boy

08:38

np

username901345

I think it deserves an apotheosis to the cannon of epigrams. What do you think?

Ice Boy

Perhaps.

username901345

But membership for any cannon automatically excludes ribaldry?

Ice Boy

Indeed.

username901345

Then he is out, you say?

Ice Boy

08:46

Yes.

username901345

Then you say you've just flip-flopped?

Ice Boy

I was undecided at first.

Perhaps means maybe.

6 mins ago, by Ice Boy

Perhaps.

username901345

I am not a Socrates, picking apart your argument in any way. Just playing.

Ice Boy

So am I :-)

just playing.

:D

username901345

But, since Shakespeare is securely in the cannon, whose works are famously filled with colorful innuendos, then it's only fair to say that at least "curtained" ribaldry does not automatically derogate from your right to the cannon. Is it not?

Ice Boy

08:58

I agree.

username901345

Then Mitch's epigram now imbibes the aureole of Shakespeare!

Ice Boy

starred^

username901345

Why??

Ice Boy

ok, unstarred

username901345

Good.

My name is Modesty.

Ice Boy

09:06

nice to meet you :)

username901345

How now?

Jez

10:35

UKIP UKIP UKIP UKIP UKIP

... ahem.

Ice Boy

10:58

let me clear my throat

..ahem, ahem.

Jez

so glad British politics is FINALLY starting to wake up to ludicrous mass immigration

we get 250,000 net increase per year in population thru immigration

based on the land mass difference, I calculate that that's like the USA getting 15 to 20 million extra people per year in immigration.

yet we still have 2 of the 4 main parties here not even acknowledging that we need to tackle runaway immigration. it's just crazy.

Mr_Green

guys my company offered a 100$ amount for the one who gives a good name for a ETL tool product. any help? :)

Matt Эллен

will I get the $100?

ETL100

Mr_Green

hehe no only internal employees

hehe

Matt Эллен

fETL

&l

handle

there, those are my suggestions

Jez

11:12

@MattЭллен what u think about ukip

Matt Эллен

I don't like them.

Jez

why, u buy into the media BS?

dont you think 250,000 net increase in population per year is a problem?

Matt Эллен

Yes

that has nothing to do with UKIP.

Jez

of course it does. they have the only credible policy for controlling it

Matt Эллен

also, I am at the end of my desire to talk to you about politics

Jez

11:14

lol

admission that you can't win the argument

your opitions therefore appear to be based on doctrine alone

Matt Эллен

If you continue to tell me how I think, I will take offence.

2

I do not enjoy talking about politics with you

Jez

oh well.

ok this has to be the strangest Q&A site yet

13

Q: How do I prevent my turtle from collapsing under its own gravity?

Suppose the universe contained a species of planet sized turtles1 that can travers at least interstellar space. How can I explain (without invoking magic) that these turtles are not spherical? If this is not possible within the laws of physics as they are, what can be changed minimally about the...

Matt Эллен

lol

Jez

"planet sized turtles"... all the way down?

Matt Эллен

could be :D maybe that would stop the collapse...

Mitch

12:01

@MattЭллен Are your thoughts that bad?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch the worst

Mitch

:D

How do I respond to "imbibing the aureole of Sheakespeare"?

Also, I did not star those.

Ice Boy

troll

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I didn't thnk you did :)

@Mitch some sort of pun about lightness

Mitch

I'm the only one active here (well now Iceboy)

Ice Boy

12:07

don't waste your energy on trolls

Sandeep Dhamija

I need help in phrasing a sentence, it's a simple one but I'm unable to find appropriate words. Can someone help?

Mitch

@IceBoy Advice taken. I don't really think s/he is a troll all the time (has a limited ELU history). Just troll-ish.

Ice Boy

ok

Sandeep Dhamija

Anyone?

Ice Boy

askaway

Mitch

12:14

@SandeepDhamija yeah..ask!

Sandeep Dhamija

Okay. There is a price-list of food items and price of let's say soda is 1$. Now I want to tell someone about this list. I'll tell him - 'The list shows soda's price AS 1$ '. I'm not sure if I can use AS in this sentence. Can I?

It's a stupid question. I'm fully aware of this thing :)

Mitch

Sure, it's fine, sounds normal.

One might think that it is weird because a perfectly good sounding alternative is: "The list shows the price IS $1." (shortened form for "The List shows THAT the price IS $1")

But with AS it is just as normal sounding.

Ice Boy

I agree.

Sandeep Dhamija

Thanks guys. Appreciate your help :)

Ice Boy

thanks for asking :-)

Johan Larsson

12:55

Does VS expose an API or do I have to do this kind of monstrosities:

14

A: How do you get the solution directory in C# (VS 2008) in code?

This is probably coming a little bit late, but I've found a solution at http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1226891&page=164. Since I am using Visual Studio 2010, I made a few minor changes. You have to reference the EnvDTE and EnvDTE100 (EnvDTE90 for VS2008), string solutionDirectory = (...

nvm, solved it with a resource

username901345

13:15

reject A, and B of C.

C modifies A and B?

username901345

13:52

@MattЭллен hi

Matt Эллен

hi

username901345

After her speech, as reason was, I bowed my head to her in supplication.

What does this mean?

as reason was

Matt Эллен

14:04

no idea

username901345

is it wrong

what is this

Matt Эллен

I don't understand what it is meant to mean

username901345

i thought

as reason existed

like I am therefore I think

terdon

Where is it from?

username901345

grammar book

Matt Эллен

14:11

bbl

terdon

@username901345 Seriously?

What book?

username901345

if you doubt me, fine.. thank you

you can succeed, not without effort. Is this rhetoric possible to mean you can never succeed without effort?

what is this rhetoric?

Jasper Loy

@username901345 I also wanna know what book.

Robusto

Latest version of Chrome Mac has this dev bar when you use the dev tools. I want to turn the damn thing off, but I can't figure out how. I mean, this is on the displayed page, not in the dev tools window itself. BAD IDEA NOT TO HAVE A WAY TO TURN A FEATURE LIKE THIS OFF, GOOGLE!

Jasper Loy

Anyway, it seems that is not good to get Carter and McCarthy's Cambridge Grammar of English as Huddleston wrote a terrible review of ir.

username901345

14:21

If I say it, then you will know my privte info.

terdon

@username901345 What? I never said I doubted you! The expression seriously? does not imply that I think you're lying. It's used to show that I think what you describe is very strange but not that you're lying about it.

Jasper Loy

@username901345 OK, you can stay private all you want, lol.

It's OK to know your private info, as long as you did not kill anyone, lol.

terdon

I just meant to say that if you have a book that includes that phrase, then you probably have a very, very bad book.

username901345

I sincerely apologize for having reacted in such a way as to give you room in which for you to take amiss my reply. @terdon

terdon

@username901345 I didn't, I was afraid that you were offended by my reply. If you didn't and since I didn't, we're all happy :)

username901345

14:26

ok, by the way, is the sentence correct?

that apology

i am uncertain...went out on a limb sort of.

terdon

:)

username901345

what does that mean?

terdon

There are a couple of problems. It's way too formal for this setting but that's not a big deal. However, to give you room in which for you to take amiss is wrong.

username901345

why?

terdon

"To give you room" wouldn't be used here. You're looking for "to give you reason to" or similar constructs.

in which for you to take is ungrammatical. You can't say "in which for you to..."

Just use for you to. For example: This is a reason for you to like me.

So, the whole thing could be changed to: I sincerely apologize for having reacted in such a way as to give you reason to take my reply amiss.

username901345

14:29

I disagree

For a beginner, the course will likely provide a good atmosphere in which for you to fire your first shots.

terdon

@username901345 Umm. OK.

username901345

by a native speaker

the same structure

terdon

@username901345 Who speaks very bad English.

That's ungrammatical.

username901345

no

prove it

where does it say that it is positively ungrammatical?

terdon

Ugh.

username901345

14:30

your preference is no rule.

terdon

in which for you is simply wrong.

username901345

why? coz it makes you "feel" so?

terdon

@username901345 No, but the way that people speak is. And that makes no sense.

@username901345 OK, back down and relax. Either you want to learn or you want to tell me how to speak my language.

username901345

sorry

i back down.

I am sorry.

terdon

Now, in which for you is simply wrong. In which you can is fine For you to is fine. With which you is also fine. But in which for you to... is just wrong.

There might be some very specific cases where it works. For example I made this room in which, for you, there will be only pleasure but that's a different situation.

a good atmosphere in which for you to fire is just nonsense. It's not a question of style or preference. That's not English.

You either say in which to fire or for you to fire. You can't use both.

Either the person who said this is not a native speaker or they misspoke or you misheard.

username901345

14:37

What about...

He lent me Harry Potter in order for me to read it.

terdon

@username901345 That's fine. Not very elegant, and most people wouldn't use it, but it's not wrong.

Note that you used in order to and not in which for you.

I don't see how they're related.

I'd just say He lent me HP so I could read it.

That, however, is preference.

username901345

He gave me this high-stacked pile of documents as a task to group into appropriate categories.

what about this?

terdon

Umm, OK. I don't much like high-stacked pile but that's fine.

username901345

but no object after group

it bothers me

terdon

Yes, it's ugly

username901345

14:42

why is it grammatical?

it sounds ungrammatical

but i cannot see how its so

terdon

This is better: He gave me the task of grouping this pile of documents into appropriate categories.

username901345

but I wanna analyze it as the sentence stands,

please i need your help in this.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"in which for you to" seems to be a hypercorrection of the "no dangling prepositions" "rule"

terdon

A rule up with which most of us will not put.

username901345

not that one, but this one

high stakced pile sentence

i wanna analyze thia

why it is grammatical

terdon

14:44

May I ask why you don't post questions on the site? That's what it's for. Well, that's what English Language Learners is for.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I can find examples of it on the 'net so I'm not sure it's ungrammatical. It sure is pretty ugly though.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"in which for you to"

username901345

ok i will do it

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ugh! Come on!

I can find some too, but I'm still convinced it's ungrammatical and would certainly be shocked to hear it spoken by any native.

Things like this are fine of course:

> This is called a zero-sum game in which for you to win,

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:46

Spoken? yeah probably not, except the stuffiest prescriptivist pedant or someone reading a prepared speech. But there are lots of examples of it written and I wouldn't say they are wrong. I don't feel strongly enough that they are wrong.

I would surely advise against writing that way though.

username901345

but what abotu this style?

You can succeed, not without effort.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hurts my eyes. Doesn't it yours? I might post a Q about that. It seems completely off to me.

username901345

to mean You can never succeed without effort.

is this rhetoric possible?

terdon

Add a but.

You can succeed, but not without effort.

username901345

i see

thanks

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:48

@username901345 the "but" is elided. It's acceptable.

@username901345 I'm not sure that's the right use of "rhetoric"

username901345

i see

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only if the sentence continues though: You can succeed, not without effort, but you can.

username901345

you can see but there?

terdon

I don't in a standalone sentence. Perhaps Mr Shiny does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon With the comma there, it separates the two parts and makes the second part a commentary on the first part. I think it's okay. I would also advise against writing that way if your intent is to be clear.

@username901345 I'd like to amend my earlier statement. This is not the correct use of the word "rhetoric".

terdon

14:52

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is a commentary to begin with though. What else can it be?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon I mean that I see a distinction between "You can succeed not without effort" which seems nonsensical, and "You can succeed, not without effort", where the part after the comma is a separate clause that comments on the first clause. In the first case I just can't parse it. And actually I think the comma should be a dash. Better would be if the comma were a " but "

terdon

Hyphen I agree with. Semicolon too, if you must. As for your first example, parse it you cannot? Not enough Yoda have you heard.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I can force myself to mash it into what I suspect it means, but then I'm using probabalistic means to try to see through bad or erroneous writing.

terdon

Seriously? This was presumably written by a native speaker!

> This, in turn, is helping to promote a healthy customer base in which for you to sell your product or services in our community.

orleanschamber.com/chamber-forms

Apparently you can sell a product in a customer base.

username901345

terdon, anothrt hing

room for misunderstanding is ok

so my use of room up there is not without basis

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:02

@terdon The questionable use of "in which for you to" with that container noun and action doesn't really say whether or not the construction is grammatical.

> This will be a lovely room in which for you to sleep

That seems grammatical to me.

Overly stilted, for sure.

Cerberus

One problem is in.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Unnatural, yes.

username901345

so my sentence is ok you say?

mr shiny?

Cerberus

Selling something in a base doesn't sound right to me.

terdon

@username901345 Oh, no, not at all. It's very understandable why you would think to use it but i) room for is not the same as room in and 2) The idiom is There is room for X, not There is room in which

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:03

@username901345 No. I don't like it. I just don't fail it as "ungrammatical".

username901345

so you say its grammatical but too buckram?

mr shiny?

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it's the in which for you that sounds wrong to me. I don't see how you can have something in which for something else.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Good example. A double verbal modification like that works in a short sentence only, I suppose.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Because it means the same thing as "This will be a lovely room for you to sleep in"

username901345

terdon, there can be conjured up many variations over one idiomatic expression.

terdon

15:04

I'm not sure it is. Trying to put my finger on why.

Cerberus

It is because you have one clause or verbal phrase modifying the same antecedent/head twice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@username901345 I don't know what "too buckram" means. I say it's grammatical but it sounds like you have read too many opinionated grammar books with bad advice in them and are over-correcting things that aren't wrong to begin with.

2

Cerberus

It breaks through the phrasal/clausal barriers.

terdon

@username901345 Yes there can, but room in which for you to take is just too off.

username901345

but mr shiny agrees with me if grudgingly

terdon

15:06

@Cerberus Yes, it seems a pleonasm. Can you give me a grammatical "rule" it breaks?

Cerberus

Mr Shiny only says it is possible in a short sentence.

terdon

And would not actually use it himself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@username901345 wait. I am not endorsing that sentence. I am saying that it sounds unnatural and stilted.

Cerberus

@terdon You cannot use a word inside a relative clause to modify something outside it. Except of course the relative pronoun and the clause as a whole.

username901345

but grammatically feasible right, Shiny?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:07

@Cerberus ... I never said anything about short.

terdon

@Cerberus Which precludes a room in which for you to sleep then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@username901345 The grammar allows all sorts of garbage.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, that is my conclusion based on your shorter sentence.

terdon

I still believe that if we're going prescriptivist, a room in which for you to is wrong.

username901345

i see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:08

@Cerberus I just wanted a quick example. I'm not sure length is relevant.

Cerberus

@terdon Yes. In a short sentence, apparently this rule can be broken, but I'd call that...idiomatic.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am...

terdon

@Cerberus I'd never come across that idiom. MrShiny did find some examples online as did I but I still think it doesn't pass muster.

Robusto

Wow, what is it about the weather that whenever I am thinking about going for a bike ride, the wind decides just that minute to go way up in velocity?

username901345

terdon

look at this

And be absolutely clear, give him no room to misunderstand you.

Robusto

This happens every day.

username901345

15:09

this is by a native speaker

room is used here

Cerberus

@terdon It is a little bit iffy. But it sounds acceptable to me, his short example.

username901345

to mean reason

terdon

@Robusto Maybe you're a Wind God, like that guy from hitchhiker's.

@username901345 Yes, that's fine. That's idiomatic.

username901345

ok]

terdon

But give him no room in which for to misunderstand you is not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:10

@username901345 Not exactly.

Cerberus

@Robusto Is it because you were too curious not to open Aeolus's bag?

@terdon That is a straw man.

> *give him no room in which for him to misunderstand you

Robusto

@Cerberus No, I was betrayed by my men. Stupid men.

Cerberus

That would be the right example. ^

terdon

@Cerberus Fine, I can make my point with either.

@Robusto this is you:

> Described by the scientific community in the novel So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish as a "Quasi Supernormal Incremental Precipitation Inducer," Rob McKenna is an ordinary lorry driver who can never get away from rain and he has a log-book showing that it has rained on him every day, anywhere that he has ever been, to prove it. Arthur suggests that he could show the diary to someone, which Rob does, making the media deem him a 'Rain God' (something which he actually is)

Cerberus

@terdon Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:11

@username901345 "give him no room to do X" is metaphoric. It means to leave no space, close him in, prevent his escape, fully constrain him from doing X.

Robusto

Not that I mind the wind, exactly, since it gives me a better workout.

Cerberus

@Robusto Why are you always discriminating against women? And children too OMG! Think of the children!

Robusto

@terdon I am not of the McKenna clad. Nor do I like tartan.

@Cerberus I discriminate against everyone equally.

Cerberus

Sounds more like concriminating then.

terdon

@Robusto They're not a clade. A genus at best.

Robusto

15:15

*clan

►

Hehe, translated for dem Frenchies.

Cerberus

15:52

@Robusto What kind of a strange world is that?

A mockery of military discipline?

terdon

16:08

@Cerberus You haven't seen Full Metal Jacket?

Wow! I thought everyone except me had.

Cerberus

Umm why would I have seen some random film?

terdon

@Cerberus 'Cause it's one of the most famous films of the century?

imdb.com/title/tt0093058/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Cerberus

Umm I have never heard of it.

terdon

Kubrick

@Cerberus Strange, it really is very well known.

Cerberus

Oh.

At least I know Kubrick.

terdon

16:11

:)

Cerberus

But that film looked like standard Hollywood fare...

terdon

The dialogue was brilliant.

Apparently mostly add-libbed too

It's one of the films I've been meaning to see for ages but have been putting off. Supposed to be excellent but very hard to watch.

Cerberus

I am glad that you like it.

Mitch

16:26

@Cerberus Kubrick is never standard.

That scene however is supposedly very realistic. The actor playing the drill sergeant is an actual drill sergeant and he was ad libbing.

Robusto

16:51

@Cerberus Military discipline is a self-parody. What you see there is not very different from what your average Marine sees (or saw).

Stack Exchange

17:09

Limerick Machine: I sit all alone in this space Taking photos of my face I paste on the wall For noöne at all So th…

posted on October 10, 2014 by sgdi

I sit all alone in this space Taking photos of my face I paste on the wall For noöne at all So that they know it’s my place

Johan Larsson

17:20

@Rob I'm writing a units of measure thing and Fahrenheit forces me to make a special case.

Robusto

18:02

@JohanLarsson Aww, that's so sad. You have to do simple math and use the constant 32. Maybe there's a library that will do that for you.

Johan Larsson

Writing the library

The maths is trivial but it will make the code slightly uglier.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson How beautiful did you want it to be? if (true) { return true; } ?

Johan Larsson

something like that yes.

Robusto

Reality. It's a bitch.

@supercat: I think the hairs you are attempting to split are too fine for me to see. — Robusto 10 secs ago

SmokeDetector

18:42

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword detected, Phone number detected: +91-9950211818 fast vashikaran on english.stackexchange.com

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

does that indian spam actually WORK? like seriously. would someone actually call?

Undo

I've wondered that

You'd think they'd quit if it didn't, but spammers are weird

Robusto

19:09

Spammers never quit. That's why they call it "spam" . . .

Johan Larsson

20:27

Ok programming word q:

A unit has a name | symbol | ??

ex: Meters (m)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:43

a type

length, mass, temperature,

there may be a term for that though.

Ice Boy

quantity?

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson yes, the (m) is called the symbol

Ice Boy

the symbol for the unit of measure

Andrew Leach

measure might be a quality or property. Or if not those words, then something siimilar.

Ice Boy

21:00

Pardon me, I meant the symbol for the unit of measurement.

Johan Larsson

ty all sirs, forgot that I asked here :)

Ice Boy

For it is measurement that refers to the value of a quantity :-)

Andrew Leach

21:15

temperature doesn't refer to the value of a quantity though.

Ice Boy

I agree.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…