English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:02

►

For @GnomeSlice ^

All that chillwave etc. stuff is just the stepchild of this stuff.

Ice Boy

oh, i see

Robusto

I never said it didn't. Read my words.

■□

Ice Boy

?

Robusto

Just wanted to transfer some boxen from my PC to my Mac.

Ice Boy

ok

Cerberus

00:15

Virtuele boxen?

GnomeSlice

02:05

@Robusto yeeeeeeeeeeeeee

hey

02:44

@GnomeSlice Nice avatar.

Mitch

@Cerberus In American English it is pretty serious.

GnomeSlice

@hey Thanks!

Can't find a higher res one, sadly.

Mitch

@Cerberus everybody else too!

GnomeSlice

►

Cerberus

03:49

@Mitch The proper use of epithet is not just for any word that you can use to call another.

@Mitch Yes, but we should not expect people in white dresses to talk incessantly about sex.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The dictionaries don't back you up on that.

Ice Boy

epithet

n. descriptive word(s).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

OED: An offensive or derogatory expression used of a person; an abusive term; a profanity.

Ice Boy

04:08

an epithet is a descriptive adjective or phrase that serves as a nickname

"the Red" is an epithet in Eric the Red

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That is one meaning of epithet, yes.

Ice Boy

that is the first meaning given

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What can I say. It has multiple meanings.

Ice Boy

the definition appearing first is the one most frequently used

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't think that's relevant.

A car can be either an automobile or a segment of a train.

The fact that one usage is far more common doesn't have anything to do with how valid or proper the other usage is.

Ice Boy

04:18

I agree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what? you're supposed to disagree, so we can argue about this until Cerb gets back

Ice Boy

but I'm an agreeable kind of person pal :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

sigh I guess we'll just have to disagree about disagreeing.

Ice Boy

disagree about agreeing?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think if we disagree about agreeing that's the same as disagreeing about disagreeing.

disagree disagree disagree this word has reached semantic satiation with me and no longer makes sense.

it's getting late here.

Ice Boy

04:24

it's better to just go with the flow... imo

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is an improper definition.

My OED does not give that vulgar definition.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm sure the OED will love to hear your input. They're also not the only ones who have it.

@Cerberus I admit: it's listed as a draft addition on the website.

Cerberus

Still bad.

Haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But there are dozens of other dictionaries that have it.

Cerberus

I'm sure some version of the OED will also list "absolutely" as a subsense of literally.

Do I care?

No.

But it is past my bed time.

Ice Boy

04:25

nvm

Cerberus

Because I do not care about people who do not care about style.

Ice Boy

go to sleep pal

Cerberus

Let them speak and write as they please.

Adieu!

Ice Boy

later

Cerberus

@IceBoy Now that is the proper use of epithet.

Ice Boy

04:27

:-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are just resistant to change.

Cerberus

I am just not so silly as to claim that one thing cannot be uglier than another.

For it can.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Of course. And when the thing is new, it is uglier than the thing that was old.

Ice Boy

here if you're interested

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You got me there.

But there are tons of exceptions!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:32

Just no linguistic ones.

Cerberus

This is just not one of them, because it is simply lazy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lazy?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This has nothing to do with linguistics.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

linguistic: of or related to language

Cerberus

All I ask is that people properly motivate their new things, be it by functionality or beauty.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, in that sense.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:34

functionality. beauty. why doesn't it have either of those?

Cerberus

I thought you were going to make an argument.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because it is less precise.

And superfluous.

Those are generally not good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's as precise as it needs to be!

as for superfluous, well, there's always more than way to say things. so now there's yet another way to say "slur" or "abusive word" or whatever.

Cerberus

Now people can't read the word epithet and know precisely what people mean by it without asking further questions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh come on

Cerberus

It is 1. new, 2. superfluous, and 3. imprecise. That is enough for me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:36

the context makes it clear

Cerberus

Not always.

Had it been only new, or only superfluous, I might have accepted it.

It is like a large, purple, inflatable McDonald's sign: not good. Now, had it been merely purple, or a sign, fine. But...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

in any case, its mere existence renders the original epithet imprecise as well, by your reasoning. So now you must avoid both senses.

large, purple, inflatable, mcdonalds

Cerberus

No, you must remind people to use it in the non-ugly way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus good luck with that. it's so common the OED has been considering that draft addition since 1993.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In other word, your sense of epithet.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Surely you did not expect the OED to stop me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:39

@Cerberus lol. my sense. I've never used it that way, or any way.

@Cerberus No, you never know when to quit.

Cerberus

Henceforth I shall call you Epithet Mr Shiny.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There you go.

How do you like your new epithet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I've had better.

Cerberus

But at least it's good.

Not "abusive etc.".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But hey. I'm not advocating for not using the original sense.

Cerberus

Good.

It's already 1.5 hours past my bed time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:41

I'm just pointing out that the newer sense is perfectly cromulent.

Cerberus

Bye!

And I was just pointing out the opposite.

Cerberus the Ferocious disappears in a puff of epithetic smoke

Ice Boy

3. An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase.
2006, Eric L. Goldstein, The Price of Whiteness: Jews, Race, and American Identity‎:
Part of this process was the elaboration of new terms for the Jew, especially the increasingly popular epithet “kike”.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah I need to get going too. My kids need to be at school soon. bye

Ice Boy

04:57

later pal

SmokeDetector

05:20

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive title detected: How the phrase 'Holy Shit' is formed? on english.stackexchange.com

hey

holy shit!

Ice Boy

holy crap!

hey

05:38

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Ice Boy

07:56

I never liked their music^

Andrew Leach

09:14

Might be of interest to Middle English fans:

bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-29536411

For those who can't get to bbc.com, this is the YouTube video it's talking about:

►

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach interesting. I'll listen to the audio later.

Ice Boy

sounds so italian

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен Yeah, I can't listen to the audio at work either.

> The conversation on Reddit hones in on the way the poem is pronounced, rather than its political meaning. "It sounds like a medley of Scottish, Dutch, German and English to me," wrote one. "To me it sounds like the Spanish Ambassador from Blackadder," said another.

Matt Эллен

I look forward to hearing the accent!

Andrew Leach

10:01

I'm sure that sure that should be homes in not hones in. BBC==Grauniad.

Matt Эллен

10:17

I did wonder about that :D

user96402

10:29

1

Q: Omitting a repeated verb

What is the rule and meaning of does in the following sentence (I think the appear omitted by it but if I am wrong please correct the title and tag): The Moon illusion is an optical illusion which causes the Moon to appear larger near the horizon than it does higher up in the sky. (en.wiki...

ellipsis

Robusto

10:43

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: English As She Is Bespoke (no tags)

Matt Эллен

11:10

Even though I didn't see a single episode of the Great British Bake Off, I have a middling to strong desire to learn to make cakes. And apple pie. I think some kind of subliminal messaging has been going on.

or maybe it's just because I'm hungry

terdon

You should!

While dissing English cooking is one of my favorite pastimes, even at my most bigoted I would have to admit that pies you guys can do.

Pastries...mmm

Matt Эллен

mmmmm

time for lunch :D

Ice Boy

why do you dis english cooking

Cerberus

Mm pies.

terdon

@IceBoy Well, first because it's traditional! Everyone loves to hate English cooking!

Second, because I've lived there a few years and I honestly did find it absolutely awful by and large.

No accounting for taste and all that, of course.

Cerberus

11:21

I have to say there is some truth in that...

But they do have some good stuff.

Nothing wrong with skonz, for example.

terdon

Indeed they do.

@Cerberus Confectionery in general. Sweets, the brits do very well actually.

Cerberus

Good.

Right!

I also like an English breakfast.

Except if they include mushroom.

And I don't think I have ever tasted black pudding, which I think is also served at breakfast?

terdon

@Cerberus Ugh. The day I started to enjoy baked beans was the day I knew I'd been there for too long.

Cerberus

Haha.

Andrew Leach

@Cerberus Traditionally. I used to like that.

terdon

11:24

Baked beans, fried eggs and horrible gristly sausages with nameless white bits in the morning? I could never understand that one.

Cerberus

OK.

But not any more?

Andrew Leach

@terdon You've forgotten the bacon and fried bread.

Cerberus

@terdon Oh, I like eggs and bacon and tomatoes and random sausages in the mornin.

terdon

Oh, and cheeses! Some of the old cheddars are actually damn good.

@AndrewLeach Ah, yes. Well, the bacon bit I'm partial to :)

@Cerberus And then you spend a few years in Spain and understand what sausages should taste like.

Cerberus

I have heard rumours.

But good English cheese I have never eaten.

terdon

11:26

Smelly and tasty, the good ones are.

Cerberus

@terdon Right, Mediterranean sausages are better! But the English ones still have their place.

Andrew Leach

OK. I'm giving in and going to get lunch. I'm now hungry.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Ha! The power of suggestion :)

Man, what's up with ML? She's been getting progrssively more aggressive:

And I would really love to know who is the idiot who downvoted this question. It shows research, it's useful, it's clear and it's about the English language. Honestly sometimes I do wonder... — Mari-Lou A 6 hours ago

She used to be so laid back!

LWTBP

Hey, guys!

I need your suggestion on how I should frame and capitalise the following title:

**demon king**

So what would be a good idea?

- let's kill the Demon King John

- let's kill the demon King John

- let's kill the Demon-King John

- let's kill the Demon-king John

Andrew Leach

There's been a question about that. Exactly that.

LWTBP

11:31

Any other better suggestions?

Cerberus

@terdon Mm she can be difficult.

terdon

Some context?

And you forgot let's kill the Demon-king John.

LWTBP

@AndrewLeach Most probably by me. But I am desperate, again. Since last time I didn't ask in a candid manner of chat rooms

Cerberus

You have to capitalise either both elements or neither.

LWTBP

and most probably "the" would not be in the statement, my bad.

Cerberus

11:33

> John is a Demon-King
> King John is a Demon

Which one of those is true?

LWTBP

i know mostly it will be a matter of style, and not proper rules. But I need you guys' ideas

Andrew Leach

0

Q: Capitalising the second word in a compound role-title

When a title, made of two hyphenated words, is followed by a proper noun, is the word after the hyphen capitalised? Eg. I understand that the following statement is correct: He killed King Ravan. But, which of these is correct? He killed Demon-king Ravan. He killed Demon-King Rava...

capitalization

Cerberus

If the former is true, you need the hyphen. If the latter is true, no hyphen.

LWTBP

@AndrewLeach Yes. I already said it was by me.

LOL

terdon

@Cerberus Are you sure? If demon-king is taken as a single word, why capitalize both?

LWTBP

11:34

@Cerberus I have found online "vampire king"

Andrew Leach

Here's your answer then:

0

A: Capitalising the second word in a compound role-title

Are his title and name King Ravan and is he a demon, then: "demon King Ravan." Is Ravan een demon-king, then "demon-king Ravan". Is demon-king a title, the "Demon-king Ravan."

LWTBP

so I am guessing that in fantasy and mythology they would like a two word title for kings. JUST "king" doesn't seem to sound stylish.

Andrew Leach

The second sentence should probably be "If Ravan is a demon-king..."

Cerberus

@terdon I don't know, my innards tell me so...because it is a title?

terdon

Mine prefer Demon-king but I'm not sure either.

Cerberus

11:36

@LWTBP You can say "demon king" without the hyphen, but not when it precedes John.

terdon

Since the title is no longer king but demon-king, it makes more sense to capitalize the 1st word only.

Cerberus

All two-barrelled titles I can think of have two capitals...

LWTBP

Background: I am editing/proofreading a series of stories before they get published. Before I make a decision about this matter, I need to finalise after taking expert advice.

Cerberus

But admittedly they usually don't have hyphens.

LWTBP

And these stories after for children. I have already axed a lot of, what I felt was, unnecessary capitalisation.

@AndrewLeach I didn't find his answer very helpful. Which is why the doubt remains.

Cerberus

11:39

That's funny, he is actually Dutch.

He accidentally typed een instead of a.

LWTBP

@Cerberus LOL

Cerberus

nods

LWTBP

as a title preceding the name, you are suggesting...

Demon-king Ravan?

because, if this was a chapter title, I would capitalise both the words, as per Oxford style recommendations.

The Life and Times of Demon-King Ravan

Cerberus

Yes, with the hyphen. I would also capitalise King, but Terdon would not. But look at his name...

LWTBP

if we hyphenate the title

terdon

11:42

@Cerberus Cheap shot!

Mind you, in a title that's different.

LWTBP

@terdon But I felt most of the work title rules are followed in role title capitalisation

Cerberus

@terdon bows

LWTBP

They met Mark, Master of Swords.

Ice Boy

@terdon you wanna hear a cheap shot?

I once read that a high school math teacher handed out applications to McDonalds to students who failed his tests.

terdon

Pfft.

LWTBP

11:46

The stories had consistently capitalised *sage* when used as role titles:

*They met Sage John.*

But they lowercased it in They met the great sage John.

terdon

That doesn't make sense unless Sage is a title.

LWTBP

So I simply capitalised sage again: They met the great Sage John.

terdon

Why?

LWTBP

I don't know @terdon The authors were not available to explain their logic.

Maybe "sage" is a title

terdon

@LWTBP Unless sage is a title in the story, I don't see why it should ever be capitalized.

Cerberus

11:48

Yeah.

LWTBP

how do I decide if it's used as a title? lack of articles?

terdon

@LWTBP Read the story.

Cerberus

It is to some degree arbitrary.

LWTBP

would "chef" be capitalised ever if it preceded a name without "the/a/"

terdon

For example: John was the village Sage (suggesting that the village's society had a specific position called sage) but John was a sage (suggesting that John was wise).

LWTBP

11:50

as in They met Chef Ramsey.

@terdon John was the village sage. wouldn't be bad either, I think

terdon

@LWTBP No, that would be fine. The capitalization would only be needed if Sage were a specific position in that society and so a title.

@LWTBP Depends, would you write they met Ramsey the Chef or Ramsey the chef?

LWTBP

in these mythological stories certainly sage is used as title/role. Not to mean clever or anything

They met Ramsey, the chef.

I am not thinking in "bob the builder" style

haha

so... now that we know "sage" is a position, it's not bad to say John was the village sage Right?

terdon

@LWTBP Neither is bad as such. The question is whether sage is used as a title or as a description. That depends on the story.

LWTBP

IF it was used a title, is my decision in

*They met the great Sage John*

proper?

terdon

No, there sage not a title.

not an adjective either, sorry.

LWTBP

11:59

phew!

@terdon would you capitalise 'king' in They met the great king john?

terdon

Ah. Damn. Not sure :)

LWTBP

Here are my two versions:

They met the great king, John.

OR

They met the great King John.

What do you think?

terdon

But is john a great hing as in a high king or is he just great at his job, so a great king?

If the former, I'd capitalize both: the Great King. If the latter, only king: the great King.

For example, if John has gone down in history as the Mad King, capitalize both. If he's just a king and mad, write the mad King.

Though both @Cerberus and @AndrewLeach are more qualified to judge this than I. Not only do I trust their editing skills more than my own, they're both subjects so should know about all this royal stuff.

LWTBP

LOL @ subjects

Cerberus

Indeed, we are!

LWTBP

12:11

yup

Cerberus

But I agree with Terdon's reasoning.

Andrew Leach

Actually, my passport says British Citizen. British Subject is different.

Anyway, I reckon the existing answer is correct.

Hyphenated, only capitalise the first word, and only if the compound is a title.

LWTBP

@AndrewLeach The existing answer on my official question?

Andrew Leach

Not hyphenated, depends on whether the word is a title or merely an adjective.

@LWTBP Yes.

LWTBP

and capitalise only the first word in hyphenated words even if I would capitalise both words in a chapter title?

terdon

12:13

@AndrewLeach Is it? I understand you'd rather not be called a subject but, strictly speaking, you are. Right?

Andrew Leach

@LWTBP Chapter titles are different, like newspaper headlines.

@terdon No, I'm a citizen. Subjects are from Overseas Territories.

LWTBP

LOL. So unfair.

terdon

@AndrewLeach Really? Aren't all citizens subjects in a monarchy?

Andrew Leach

@terdon Apparently not. Some passports do say British Subject, but they are the Overseas Territories ones.

Jasper Loy

@matt Today I went out again and saw many beautiful women again.

Matt Эллен

12:15

sounds like a good day

terdon

@AndrewLeach Huh, must be some legal difference then I guess. I remember a little idiot in university who objected to "citizenship class" on the grounds of being a subject.

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен Yesterday, Maria emailed me, so I am happy.

Matt Эллен

good :)

LWTBP

@terdon @AndrewLeach @Cerberus If you guys had to write a fantasy/myth based story, and there was a demon who was a king of demon land containing demons, what title would you create? Just King? or Demon-king? or... ??

Cerberus

I really couldn't say.

terdon

12:18

@LWTBP Just king. I'd call him the Demon King if he were the only demon around. If they're all demons, it's like calling a king the Human King which makes no sense.

Cerberus

Right.

But don't write ~~Demon King John~~ if his title is Demon King, lest people think King John is a Demon.

terdon

So, it's Witch-king of Angmar but the King of the Dwarves.

Actually, there you go. If Witch-king is good enough for Tolkien, Demon-king should be good enough for you :)

Cerberus

Yeah WItch-King was the first title I thought of...

terdon

@Cerberus But note the lower case king.

Matt Эллен

Skeleton King was the first one I thought of

Jasper Loy

12:20

Today I vomited. I guess I had a bit too much coffee and there was too much reflux.

Cerberus

@terdon Yes.

Still not a fan of that, but...

Matt Эллен

But that's invented by an American company, so...

@JasperLoy possibly

terdon

@Cerberus Sorry, but that's one author whose style I trust.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен ...so no further comment needed.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

12:21

@terdon Well, I trust Tolkien. But was it his editor?

terdon

Presumably. Or him. Either way:

46 mins ago, by terdon

Since the title is no longer king but demon-king, it makes more sense to capitalize the 1st word only.

Shit, we've been on about this for that long?

Cerberus

Haha.

I have been doing other things mostly...

LWTBP

Sorry guys... for making it take so long.

I over analyse. And I need something good when an author comes storming at me and complains to my boss.

terdon

@LWTBP Tell him: Well, that's how Tolkien did it and he was a professor of English Literature at Oxford

Matt Эллен

I was mostly eating

LWTBP

12:26

I never knew much about the witch-king. Is he named the Witch-king because he's the only witch among humans?

Matt Эллен

leader of the nazgul. a king of men.

terdon

The point being that his title is witch-king not merely that he is a witch and a king.

Matt Эллен

My mistake, he's not a king of men at all.

Jasper Loy

They say he who kneels before God can stand before men. I say he who kneels before men can stand before God.

terdon

And he who kneels too long will have trouble standing at all.

Jasper Loy

12:32

LOL

terdon

After a certain age anyway :)

Matt Эллен

Who is this Neil bloke? What's he doing in front of me?

terdon

@MattЭллен He's kneluflecting.

LWTBP

So it's final then? Let's kill Demon-king Ravan and also * Let's kill the demon king, Ravan.*

correct?

Omar

Hi everyone

Matt Эллен

12:41

@terdon har har :D

Hi, Omar

Omar

@MattЭллен hi :)

There is a proposal that may be beneficial for all SE languages sites. Its about hosting audio files to help others learning proper/correct pronounciation

5

Q: Language sites and pronunciation questions

The following feature request would be useful for the language sites in general if implemented. A discussion took place in a chatroom dedicated for the Arabic Language Proposal it started: let say a non-Arabic speaker asking how to pronounce a word in Arabic the discussion went on from...

feature-request language

if you find it helpful, please support it.

Thank you in advance :)

LWTBP

@Omar Don't dictionaries give a good enough audio?

terdon

@Omar There's no such thing in English. Or, there are very many.

Not a bad idea though.

Omar

@LWTBP not all of them AFAIK.

@terdon it aims to make such sites a full reference. Help seekers wouldn't look elsewhere for correct pronunciation.

Matt Эллен

@terdon tch. it's my way or the dual carriageway

terdon

12:48

@Omar I understand, I'm just thinking that in English at least, there are so many "correct" pronunciations that it would be almost impossible to do. And then there's also the way that @MattЭллен pronounces it which is just wrong.

Matt Эллен

lol

terdon

I would guess the same is true about Arabic. Both that there are many correct ways of pronouncing a word and that Matt's is wrong :P

Omar

@terdon hahaha @MattЭллен is to be blamed

terdon

Always, that's why he's a mod after all.

LWTBP

@terdon Just curious about Wikipedia. They seem to follow a lot of their styleguide well. But why is "Witch-king" capitalised even when it's used without the full name? We wouldn't capitalise "king" when used without thename.

Omar

12:51

@terdon Well, in Arabic word's pronunciation varies. We aren't talking about dialects.

terdon

@Omar We'd have to though. Who decides which is the correct pronunciation? Moroccan? Egyptian? Algerian? Classical?

@LWTBP I would if it's the title. I spoke to the King yesterday.

Omar

@terdon of course classic

terdon

@Omar Ah, yes, OK. In Arabic, you have the official accent. There's no such thing in English.

@Omar But would you call the Moroccan pronunciation wrong? How can it be if that's how people pronounce it in Morocco?

LWTBP

@terdon Titles are only capitalised when they precede the name, to keep capitalisation to minimum, is what I know.

Omar

@terdon dialects is another issue. When we talk about Arabic, we talk about official/classical accent فصحى

terdon

12:54

@Omar OK, but that's very specific to Arabic if so. And I'm sure that linguists don't do that since they can be studying any of the various versions.

@LWTBP Huh? Don't know that rule. Seems strange to me.

Omar

@terdon well, if someone is looking for a specific dialect, then he/she will get it too.

Mitch

@MattЭллен Don't succumb to the patriarchy! When you realize an advertisement has subconsciously convinced you to buy their product, buy the other brand.

terdon

@Omar I understand. My point is that for a language such as English, there's no equivalent to Classical Arabic.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch that seems to work well in favour of the other brand. I think the other brand have got to you

Mitch

@terdon Well, in the US there's the unstated preference for GAmE.

Omar

12:59

@terdon Oh, got your point :) thanks anyway!

Mitch

@MattЭллен so sneaky!

Omar

I appreciate your input.

terdon

@Mitch True, but then you have the 65000 British accents, Australia, NZ, South Africa, etc etc.

Omar

have a good day.

Mitch

I still want to eat cake! And pie!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…