English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Alraxite

00:00

The keyboard can.

Well, in most cases anyway.

So implementing methods to make doing things with the keyboard requires less moving of your hand.

You can't do that the other way round. Simply because the mouse can't do it.

The mouse, in itself, I would argue, isn't convenient at all times.

When you want to move it from one corner of the screen to the other just to press a button, for instance.

There's not really anything like that with a keyboard. All combinations are easily accessible.

I can scroll up this chat by pressing Shift+Space. Space to come down. And start typing immediately without ever having to move my hands to the track pad, then move the mouse to the scroll bar and scroll, and then return to typing.

If there was a keyboard shortcut for doing everything, the keyboard would be better than the mouse in every aspect.

tchrist

@Mitch If you mean Tolkien’s essay, absolutely not. If you mean the meta poster’s point, I haven’t a clue.

Alraxite

@Cerberus The mouse is easy to use and convenient when it is, but it can't do everything. And if you want to lessen moving you hands repeatedly, you'll need to learn to stick to one input device and choose the keyboard because it can do most things and so is the reasonable choice.

OK. That was some long messages for a trivial topic of discussion.

tchrist

00:15

The mouse sucks. Everybody knows that.

If God had meant us to play the piano with just one finger, he would have made it a drum.

Offensive-Flag && Delete-Vote please:

-2

A: Meaning of "a window to the world"

caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca caca

That or it’s the soundtrack to a woodpecker’s pounding.

Mahnax

Hello.

tchrist

Hi. I’m not very here.

Mahnax

No? OK. Well, good luck with whatever you are doing, wherever it may be.

tchrist

But I’m here enough to recognize that here doesn’t readily admit that sort of modifier without being forced.

Mahnax

Are you on some sort of substance? Very tired, perhaps?

tchrist

00:25

#2

No substance but tiredness.

Mahnax

At 6:30? Why so tired, if I may inquire?

tchrist

And I’ve just eaten what will pass for supper, and therefore feel torpor coming on.

Been getting up at 5am a lot.

Or worse.

Dunno. The gloaming is coming on.

Mahnax

Huh. I guess you're not as used to that as I am, then. :)

Are you back home now?

tchrist

Not getting enough exercise (any whatsoever, actually, due to an injury) to have the right energy flow.

Sure, I’ve been home a good while.

Mahnax

That's what I thought, but I've not been in here much. How are the kitties?

tchrist

00:28

Sitting around all day just makes you tired. For actual energy levels to bump up, you have to spend it.

Well, that’s the thing. I need to reel them in.

Mahnax

And if you're awake enough to chat, how do you like the new job?

@tchrist Oh boy.

tchrist

They’re otherwise fine.

But we have a bear that’s been digging into the garbage bins, so I have to bring them in tonight to the garage and shut it.

Mahnax

Ick.

tchrist

The new job is a good one. There is a great deal of new stuff to get used to, because it is a very complicated application with many many layers, none of which I am familiar with. Framework crud.

Mahnax

Oh, great!

tchrist

00:30

And I have been recently tasked with a certain sort of impossible mission regarding “internationalizing” it, and I fear the Powers That Be don’t understand how complicated that is.

Mahnax

Impossible missions of this nature are right up your alley. Hopefully the salary matches the level of PITA associated with it.

tchrist

Not just code, but template files and database stuff that create dynamic pages. Very complex.

Lorin just came in. Good.

Mahnax

Good idea.

Hello Lorin!

tchrist

I will need to stash him in a bedroom and then set about getting Randy to come back. He was just here a few minutes ago, so won’t be far.

I’ll do the bear-proofing, so he will notice I’m outside and be curious.

Mahnax

Do they sleep with you still?

tchrist

00:33

They really really want me to be outside with them.

Mahnax

Ah, good. Lure him in with that good old feline curiosity.

tchrist

Yes, they sleep with me and each other every night.

Randy makes a satisfying clutch-pillow.

Mahnax

Awww. Even at the size they are now. That's really cute.

tchrist

Lie on your side with the arm out, and Randy will lie down with his head on your shoulder, and you can put both arms around him and go to sleep.

That’s a bit too claustro for Lorin, but he is still affectionate.

Mahnax

Awww!

That's adorable.

tchrist

00:34

They still sometimes sleep with pieces overlapping each other’s.

Randy is a purring clutch-pillow.

He always comes and “tucks you in” by snuggling under your chin to give you a kiss good night. Not wet, just metaphor.

Mahnax

Hmm, are you still hosting your photos at the same place as before?

tchrist

I think so.

Mahnax

I was going to check for new pics, but I can't seem to load the page.

tchrist

They might have changed the address.

Mahnax

Yeah, it's not working for me.

tchrist

00:36

Oh, I think that computer is down. Drat.

Must have had a power hit, and it is not on a UPS.

Anyway, cat herding time.

Mahnax

Ohh, ok. Good luck!

tchrist

Hasta no sé cuándo.

Mahnax

OK. À la prochaine!

Je m'en vais.

Cerberus

@Alraxite No, I think switching between mouse and keyboard is okay, as long as you don't have to do it too often.

For example, I think using the keyboard to reply to a message in chat is great, because otherwise you would have to switch to the mouse for a few seconds, then return to typing: that kind of sucks.

But if I am going to brows a few web pages after chatting, switching to the mouse is in the end more efficient, because the keyboard can never be nearly as efficient as the mouse for browsing.

Then the switch is a small investment with a larger payout.

@Alraxite You seem to be forgetting mouse gestures.

I use mouse gestures instead of pressing buttons, if those buttons always do the same thing.

Such as going back to the previous page, loading just the images from the page, or opening one of my favourite websites. None of those things are specific to a certain location on the screen that I have to pick, so they are good for mouse gestures.

Anything that must operate upon a specific but changing location on the screen, such as opening a link or saving an image, does not work well with gestures, but neither does it work well with hotkeys, not even the ones from Pentadactyl.

I use a combination of mouse click and gesture for those: I drag a link down to open it in a new background tab; I drag a selected word or phrase right to open it in Wikipaedia; I drag an image to the right to save it; etc.

Mitch

01:02

@tchrist I've never seen the Tolkien essay; I'm just trying to figure out what the OP's trying to say.

tchrist

> In the English School, owing to the accidents of history, the distinction between philology and literature is notoriously marked . . . its branches are customarily but loosely dubbed the 'language' and 'literature' side—titles which never were accurate, fortunately for both. History may explain their arising, but provides no defence for their retention.

StoneyB

Quite so. I came here to see if anyone saw anything in that post but peeving.

tchrist

Tom Shippey, who once held the same chair as Tolkien at Oxford, has written that little if anything has improved there since those words were first delivered.

I do not understand the meta post.

metameta

Cerberus

@tchrist This is probably true.

At university, courses were distributed between "literature" and "linguistics".

But that merely indicated the focus of each course: it did by no means imply a separation or an exclusion.

StoneyB

@tchrist My impression is that in US Depts of English, at least, the Lang/Lit war ended a generation ago. The line now is Lit vs Rhet/Comp.

tchrist

01:17

So language — linguistics, philology, what have you — is gone?

Cerberus

Composition?

Or what is Comp?

StoneyB

You got it, Cerberus. The money these days is in English pedagogy: teaching rudimentary writing to students who have little or no experience with either lit or lang. Not very different, in fact, from the ELL quaerents, except the ELL folks generally know some grammar.

Robusto

Meine Leidenschaft brennt heißer noch wie Gulaschshaft. "My passion burns hotter than goulash sauce." Hehe, them funky Krauts and their goulash sauce.

Goulash is the spice of love! Paprikaaaaaaa!

StoneyB

The old guard - the senior faculty - still wave the Lit banner, and acknowledge the Lang folks as allies. Sorta like the US and Germany after WWII. But the Rhet/Comp crowd are the New Barbarians, and like the Old ones seem to have history on their side.

tchrist

Goulash will leave you, Hungary.

You cannot study Old English literature without studying the language itself.

Robusto

01:23

Well do I know it.

Sep 9 at 11:59, by Robusto

We "learned" the rudiments of Old English over the course of a single semester, and then were plunged directly into translating Beowulf in the second. I'm surprised I lived through that.

StoneyB

That, as I understand it was Tolkien's point -- and that you cannot study the language without immersing yourself in the literature-and-all-that-that-entails. He adopted your term (@tchrist), philology, as the bridge.

Cerberus

@StoneyB Huh, at university?

@Robusto -saft, probably?

Robusto

@Cerberus I translated it as sauce.

StoneyB

My wife is now taking a doctorate 500 miles away because OE is not taught at any 'university' in St. Louis.

tchrist

Here is Chaucer as a Philologist: The Reeve’s Tale.

Robusto

01:25

@Cerberus Oh, I mistyped. You're right! Damn stupid keyboard!

Cerberus

Heh.

Robusto

What I get for not looking at my fingers while I type.

StoneyB

Ah! I was looking for that. (Not 'Lit and Lang', as the meta OP thinks).

Cerberus

A bridge in Kashmir.

Robusto

A Kashmir "sweater" . . .

StoneyB

01:28

Unravelling, apparently.

tchrist

@StoneyB A brief work to be sure. Its page count can be measured in only six bits — barely.

hey

Army had made temporary bridge in 16 hours.

Robusto

You can make a temporary bridge in far less time, if you're not fussy about how well it holds up.

Cerberus

That is fast.

@Robusto A bridge that cars can drive on?

StoneyB

@tchrist It seems to be longer than the Monster and the Critics, which is still revered among Beowulfians. (Beowulfists?)

Robusto

01:32

@Cerberus For a time, yes. I didn't say they'd make it across, mind you.

Cerberus

All right.

And that includes getting all the men and the materials there?

tchrist

It is long, yes, although the six pages of footnotes add to that.

Robusto

@Cerberus Let's not drag this out. I'm making a joke.

Again.

tchrist

And it has not one but two appendices.

Robusto

An appendectomy would leave it unfazed.

Cerberus

01:34

Okay.

StoneyB

@Robusto So when they make the movie will it be A Bridge Not Quite Far Enough or The Bridge No Longer Over the River ___?

Robusto

@StoneyB It will be Abridged Too Far.

C'mon, ya gotta give it up for that one.

StoneyB

With the Top 10 title song Troubled Bridge Over Waters.

And I do give it up.

Robusto

We'll fall off that bridge when we come to it.

tchrist

Ah, I see where he got estel from. See page 141.

> One can imagine the brief burning words, like those with which he scorched Adam, that he would address to those who profess to admire him while disdaining “philology”, who adventure, it may be, on textual criticism undeterred by ignorance of Middle English.

Heh.

That’s good.

StoneyB

01:46

@tchrist Three appendices.

tchrist

Ah.

The reason that “The Monsters and the Critics” changed everything is that before its presentation, critics did not interpret the monsters in Beowulf as worthy of contemplation. They thought them unfortunate defects in the tale, that the poet should have omitted.

I’m probably potting that in too tiny a statement.

“Alas” quod he, “þis es a wikkëd Iape!
Nou mai I sai þat I es but an ape.
õit has mi felawẹ sumquat for his harm:
He has þe miller doghter in his arm.
He auntrëd him, and has his nedës sped,
And I li as a draf-sek in mi bed;
And quen þis Iapẹ es tald anoþer dai,
I sal be haldën daf, a cokenai.
I wil arisẹ and auntrẹ it, bi mi fai!

That quen certainly rings Northern to me.

But the use of the broad a where we now have a “long” o for is not something that I an American recognize for a Northernism.

I wonder what a cokenai meant.

StoneyB

@tchrist Bottom of page 146

tchrist

Thanks. I grepped the whole OED2 text, and it wasn’t anywhere there.

Cerberus

Interesting, they kept the Proto-Indo-European labiovelar!

What language is that?

It is very readable. Some English dialect?

What is auntre?

And what is Iape? A joke? A tale?

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, of course.

StoneyB

01:58

@tchrist Not according to T: see note 22, p. 21.

Cerberus

Why "of course"?

tchrist

@Cerberus Because one assumes you not unfamiliar with japes of modern orthographic tradition.

StoneyB

@Cerberus A jape. And I believe the 'q' was a Northern revival.

Cerberus

Right, I suppose my subconscious thought of that.

@StoneyB So it is a Northern dialect? They revived it: how long had it been dead? I thought it had died before Proto-Germanic!

tchrist

@Cerberus It is a Southerner writing in the Middle English of London portraying the speech of a Northerner in a tale otherwise in the Southern dialect.

Cerberus

02:00

Ah, I see.

When?

tchrist

In contrast, Sir Gawain was actual Northern Middle English.

StoneyB

We had a very interesting question about that, which involved a 16th-century debate between a learned Scot and a learned Englishman about the proper way to spell the *wh-*s

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s The Canterbury Tales!!

Cerberus

Ooo.

I think we read some of that in school.

tchrist

02:02

I should hope so.

But the passage cited above is not in the Southern dialect the rest of the poem is in.

Cerberus

You must understand that English is less important here.

StoneyB

@Cerberus Here is the question.

tchrist

@Cerberus We are reading this essay.

Cerberus

@StoneyB O, dear.

StoneyB

@Cerberus Please go tell the folks on ELL. There is a faction there that thinks that no English learner should be interested in anything but PDE.

tchrist

02:05

In general, speakers of today’s English find Chaucer more readable than Sir Gawain. The latter uses a northern dialect that did not lead into modern English the way Chaucer’s did. However, natives from the northern marches have an advantage there, for some of those terms now lost to the South linger in the North.

Cerberus

@StoneyB I think you told me about PDE before, but the abbreviation is rather intransparent, I forgot what it meant.

tchrist

What is PDE?

Cerberus

Post-Depression English?

StoneyB

Present-Day English. Post-'Modern'.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, that.

tchrist

02:07

I reject Postmodernism.

Cerberus

I remember disapproving of it, and even more so of the abbreviation. But no matter.

@tchrist Umm there is nothing about it to reject.

StoneyB

Modern English belongs to my childhood, and is repudiated by today's children.

tchrist

Well, I reject the notion that we are speaking something other than modern English.

Cerberus

Well, "modern" has two meanings.

StoneyB

Just two?

tchrist

02:08

langue à la mode

Cerberus

Context shall clarify which one is meant; the distinction is usually not a problem.

Perhaps more.

For one thing, I would use a capital to mean something other than its intuitive meaning.

Like Modern History.

Which starts around 1800, usually. Or around 1400, depending on your definitions, probably.

Modern English starts around 1600, probably?

But Modern English is not modern English.

Modern English

Modern English (sometimes New English as opposed to Middle English and Old English) is the form of the English language spoken since the Great Vowel Shift in England, completed in roughly 1550. With some differences in vocabulary, texts from the early 17th century, such as the works of William Shakespeare and the King James Bible, are considered to be in Modern English, or more specifically, are referred to as using Early Modern English or Elizabethan English. English was adopted in regions around the world, such as North America, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Australia and New Zealand through...

tchrist

@Cerberus Disputed.

We speak Modern English.

StoneyB

Down to about 1700 it's usually qualified as Early Modern. (I use 1660.) After 1800 or so it's Late Modern.

tchrist

Whilst Shakespeare Early Modern English spake.

StoneyB

Trippingly upon the tongue.

tchrist

02:13

> As hit is stad and stoken
In stori stif and stronge,
With lel letteres loken,
In londe so hatz ben longe.

StoneyB

He was, after all, a player, and had professional standards to maintain.

tchrist

@StoneyB That flows trippingly upon the tongue.

Or the earlier one:

> Where werre and wrake and wonder
Bi syþez hatz wont þerinne,
And oft boþe blysse and blunder
Ful skete hatz skyfted synne.

StoneyB

Not by me -- my front teeth are artificial and can't handle all those /st/s

tchrist

Which is the conventionally rhyming part of the opening stanza of Sir Gawain.

> SIÞEN þe sege and þe assaut watz sesed at Troye,
Þe borȝ brittened and brent to brondeȝ and askez,
Þe tulk þat þe trammes of tresoun þer wroȝt
Watz tried for his tricherie, þe trewest on erthe:
Hit watz Ennias þe athel, and his highe kynde,
Þat siþen depreced prouinces, and patrounes bicome
Welneȝe of al þe wele in þe west iles.
Fro riche Romulus to Rome ricchis hym swyþe,
With gret bobbaunce þat burȝe he biges vpon fyrst,
And neuenes hit his aune nome, as hit now hat;
Tirius to Tuskan and teldes bigynnes,

Lots of /tz/ too.

@Cerberus See how much harder that is to read than the other?

Cerberus

@tchrist A fruit is not an apple.

tchrist

02:17

He is using both OE/ON-style alliterative head-rhyme in the main part, as well as the Romance-style tail-rhyme in the last four lines of each stanza, right after each two-syllable line lead-in.

@Cerberus I’m sure that meant something to you.

Ah, Camelot!

StoneyB

And this is even harder - for me, though perhaps not Cerberus.

Cerberus

@tchrist This is indeed fairly easy to read. What is the "other"?

tchrist

At Yuletide, no less!

> Þis kyng lay at Camylot vpon Krystmasse
With mony luflych lorde, ledez of þe best,
Rekenly of þe Rounde Table alle þo rich breþer,
With rych reuel oryȝt and rechles merþes.
Þer tournayed tulkes by tymez ful mony,
Justed ful jolilé þise gentyle kniȝtes,
Syþen kayred to þe court caroles to make.
For þer þe fest watz ilyche ful fiften dayes,
With alle þe mete and þe mirþe þat men couþe avyse;
Such glaum ande gle glorious to here,
Dere dyn vpon day, daunsyng on nyȝtes,
Al watz hap vpon heȝe in hallez and chambrez

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, Modern English = fruit. But modern English = an apple.

tchrist

@Cerberus Well, most speakers of Modern English, not having the extra knowledge of Dutch and Sutch, find Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales buttloads easier to read than Sir Gawain. For them. Your leaguage may vary.

The “other” was the earlier excerpt of Chaucer intentionally writing in Northern eye-dialect.

Being Dutch, you know many words now lost to most unscholarly contemporary speakers of English.

Cerberus

02:23

@StoneyB Very nice. The scan has a fairly low resolution, and I must say I am not good at the English letters. And I don't know the English spelling at all, so it is not anywhere near as easy for me as Dutch or Latin, or even German or French. But of course I had read the transcript here, so it was OK.

@tchrist Which is which? The bit about Aeneas was easy, also because I know the story. What is the other text?

Oh, that.

StoneyB

My son texts me that he is inbound, so I have to make dinner. I wish you "alle þe mirþe þat men couþe avyse", and I'll take care of "þe mete"

Cerberus

The Chaucer bit was also readable, not much difference for me. But I didn't know the story from the Chaucer bit, so it was harder to understand the tenor of the story.

tchrist

Ah well.

Cerberus

@StoneyB Thank you!

But what is the mete?

The meat?

tchrist

The Chaucer that most schoolchildren have to memorize is the first stanza.

Cerberus

02:26

Remember, I know nothing about older English.

tchrist

The meat and the mirth, I think. Unless it is meet that there be mirth, which I think would be the wrong reading.

Cerberus

Or even Early Modern English.

I have to guess everything, bases on the modern Germanic languages that I know.

You read it much better than I.

tchrist

@Cerberus This is the stanza we all have to memorize. It has words like strand in it that you will know as shore, but that many modern speakers no longer recognize.

> WHAN that Aprille with his shoures soote
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale fowles maken melodye,
That slepen al the night with open ye,
(So priketh hem nature in hir corages:
Than longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
And palmers for to seken straunge strondes,

It is the opening of Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, and its language (and rhyme-scheme) is widely held to be more approachable than the Sir Gawain text is.

And palmers for to seek strange strands

And he rhymes it with sundry lands.

He also rhymes seke with seke, which is nearly wicked. :)

The Chaucer is much more full of French.

Modulo old forms like y-ronne and such. :)

Cerberus

@tchrist To me, they are about equally difficult: because I know absolutely nothing about older English, the two dialects are not much different for me in that regard.

tchrist

I see.

Cerberus

02:32

Except that the story of the Aeneas text is familiar, so it is easier.

But I also saw more unfamiliar words in the Chaucer.

tchrist

There were contemporary, but completely different forms of Middle English. And also completely different expressions of the poetic tradition.

Cerberus

Yes, the latter is more lyrical, hence more difficult.

Less context, less cohesion.

tchrist

Lyrical meaning something having to do with its rhyme-scheme and all?

Yes, it is bound into it.

Cerberus

It is a sub-genre of poetry.

tchrist

Made to fit a tight scheme.

Sir Gawain is also bound, but differently.

Cerberus

02:34

Lyrical poetry besings the virtue or vice of a certain subject.

It is also conventionally connected with certain metres, yes. But I don't know how that works in English.

tchrist

Look at the mandatory alliteration between the two halves of each line, separated by the caesura:

> With mony luflych lorde, ledez of þe best,
Rekenly of þe Rounde Table alle þo rich breþer,
With rych reuel oryȝt and rechles merþes.
Þer tournayed tulkes by tymez ful mony,

The two stressed syllables in the first half must alliterate with exactly one but not both of the second half.

Cerberus

Interesting.

tchrist

Oct 20 '12 at 0:45, by tchrist

OE always seems like German to me. ME, it depends. Some like Chaucer just seems like it’s Shakespearing Shakespeare. Some like Sir Gawain seems like it’s some sort of Dutch changeling come to us by way of France.

Cerberus

There are too many unknown words in that text for me to understand it, though.

tchrist

Me three.

Cerberus

02:38

Ledez?

Rekenly? Connected with reckon?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Breþer? Brother?

Oryȝt?

tchrist

I think the first line might be "With many lovely lord, leaders of the best".

@Cerberus Yes!

Cerberus

Brethren.

Rechles? Reckless? Without wretches?

How did they pronounce ch anyway?

tchrist

I don’t know the rich revel oryȝt.

Cerberus

02:40

Merþes? Mirths?

tchrist

@Cerberus Like German, I think.

Cerberus

German has at least two ways to pronounce ch...

tchrist

@Cerberus Perhaps reckless mirths. I do not know.

@Cerberus Like Scottish then.

Loch

Cerberus

Tulkes? I saw that word in the other text. Didn't it mean something like lords or something?

@tchrist Ah OK, so like Dutch.

by tymez ful mony = by times full of money? Probably not?

tchrist

Tolkien uses Tulkas as his “wrestler god”. I wonder.

Cerberus

02:42

By times as in "at times, sometimes".

tchrist

@Cerberus full-many

Cerberus

Ah.

So very many?

tchrist

Yes.

A lot of times.

Cerberus

So "on very many occasions"?

Right.

tchrist

By times full many.

I think so.

Cerberus

02:43

We still say "bij tijden" in Dutch.

And "bij tijd en wijle".

tchrist

Oh wait, I think I may have something on tulkes. Let me check.

Cerberus

Both somewhat old fashioned.

We also say "bijtijds", which is current. "In time".

tchrist

Damn, it is only a citation.

Betide.

Cerberus

Yes!

Or actually, probably not?

tchrist

> C. 1400 Destr. Troy xi. 4571 ― Hit angris to abide, Or tary··when tulkes ben redy.

Cerberus

02:44

Be- ≠ by/bij.

It angers [one] to wait, or wait when tulkes are ready?

tchrist

> C. 1400 Destr. Troy 7363 ― He was fully the fens··Of all the tulkes of Troy.

That is the fence that means bulwark.

Cerberus

Ahh.

tchrist

Found it.

tulkes from The Middle English Word of the Day

> Tulke (n.) - a man, soldier, fighting man, knight.

Cerberus

tchrist

We have nothing left of it, I gather.

Cerberus

02:47

Ahh Dutch tolk! "Interpreter".

So English talk.

Funny.

tchrist

That’s funny: they needed it because it was the only word that meant man which alliterated with t-!

Cerberus

tchrist

I’m wrong.

I’m always wrong.

> † tulk, tolk, sb. Obs.

Etymology: Generally identified with ONor. túlkr interpreter, spokesman (cf. ONor. túlka vb.: see next), Da., Sw. tolk = MLG. tolk, tollik, Dutch tolk translator, MHG. tolc, tolke, ad. Lith. tulkas, Lett. tulks, OSl. tluku interpreter: cf. Russ. tolku sense, meaning, talk. But nothing has been found to connect the ME. sense, common in alliterative verse, with these.

A man.

13·· E.E. Allit. P. B. 498 ― Tyl þay had tyþyng fro þe tolke þat tyned hem þer-inne.
13·· E.E. Allit. P. 1262 ― Er he to þe tempple tee wyth his tulkkes alle.

Cerberus

Told you so!

tchrist

Talk talk talk.

Cerberus

02:51

Talk is probably not related to tell...

Or is it?

tchrist

Dunno.

a>e vowel change looks suspiciously like man>men.

Cerberus

Dutch tolk is from Russian!

> Oudrussisch tŭlkŭ is verwant met Oudkerkslavisch tlŭkŭ ‘uitlegger’ en buiten het Slavisch wrsch. met Latijn loquī ‘spreken, zeggen’, bij de wortel pie. *tlokw- (IEW 1088).

The Russian is in turn related to loqui.

tchrist

Wow.

Cerberus

And that looks suspiciously like tell/vertellen/taal/tale.

tchrist

The kitties are lying upon each other behind me. I love to see them so casually affectionate, despite being unrelated and unmated. Actually, mated cats aren’t this friendly.

From tale come things like tally and the Dvergatal: the Dwarrowtally.

-tal for tally.

Dverga for Dwarven.

It is no different in the Latinate side.

To recount a tale.

To give an accounting.

Cuentos de hada(s) are contes de fées. Fairytales.

Cerberus

02:57

> Herkomst onbekend (Bjorvand/Lindeman) of op zijn minst onzeker. Pgm. *tal- kan teruggevoerd op een wortel pie. *del-, *dol- ‘richten, berekenen, (ver)tellen’ (IEW 193).
De oorspr. betekenis is onduidelijk; traditioneel gaat men uit van ‘ingekerfd teken’ en stelt men deze wortel gelijk met pie. *del(h1)- ‘behakken, bewerken’ (IEW 194, LIV 114), waaruit o.a. Latijn dolāre ‘id.’. Verwantschap met Grieks dólos, Latijn dolus ‘lokmiddel, list’ (Boutkan/Siebinga) lijkt qua betekenis onwaarschijnlijk; áls dat woord al Indo-Europees is, is het eerder verwant met on. tál ‘list, bedrog’ en ohd. zāla…

The original meaning of the root behind tell/tale is unknown, but it leads back to pie. *del-, *dol- ‘direct, calculate, tell’.

tchrist

Curious.

Tales lost to antiquity.

Obviously it was also in Old Norse.

Cerberus

Then some speculation about the meaning and relationships of that root.

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