English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jez

16:00

no, they want their tiny little Scotland whom nobody will care about

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez So instead of calling them morons, maybe you should try to help them understand why they should want to keep you.

Mitch

@Jez I was expecting a more clever rhyme than that.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i won't beg them. i got an email from the Lib Dems the other day asking me to, though. and to call up Scottish people.

those who are sensible will already vote no. those who will fall victim to Salmond's jingoistic rhetoric, i can do nothing to help.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They're gonna have to add a whole new language and translation services to the EU. What is it they speak up there? Basque?

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha Bursht is quite good.

Or draniki.

Or Beef Stroganoff.

Mitch

16:02

Chicken Kiev... bleurgh.

Cerberus

@Jez But is that desirable? Cameron is not exactly having a good influence on the world these days.

Matt Эллен

or ever

Jez

@Cerberus i definitely think major electoral reform in westminster is desirable. then again, 2/3rds of Britain voted no to AV, including 2/3rds of Scotland!

so apparently they don't think so

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez No, instead of trying to help you're just insulting them. You're being patronizing and condescending. No wonder they want to ditch you.

Mitch

@Cerberus You haven't been watching the more recent James Bond have you.

Matt Эллен

16:03

yeah. I don't get that. It's not like the voters have to do the calculation. Why not AV?

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 s/help/beg/

yeah. i will not beg them

they should want to be part of something bigger than Scotland

Mitch

What's ... AV? Auto-voting?

Jez

alternative vote

not proportional, but a small step in the right direction

you rank candidates

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez bah. By the same logic you should be fighting for pan-european nationalism. There would be so many advantages!

Mitch

You mean like if you can't make it to the polls you can assign an 'alternate' but they can vote anyway they feel like?

Matt Эллен

16:04

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 indeed! it would be glorious!

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah but as we've mentioned, european countries have way more differences than Scotland does with britain

Matt Эллен

man, I would love it

Jez

so that makes less sense

Mitch

@MattЭллен !!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez So? Work together! Resolve your differences!

Jez

16:05

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 also, the SNP ARE highly supportative of the EU. explain that!

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes!

Mitch

@MattЭллен !! down with Africa! They want independence, then let it be so!!

Oops...that happened already.

Jez

they reject the British union in favour of the European one

Matt Эллен

@Jez they want to be part of Europe, something being part of the UK prevents them from being

tchrist

Jez

16:06

@MattЭллен not right now it doesnt.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Maybe you should stop to consider, then, what Scotland hopes to gain. Maybe what they want is the benefit of a large nation, without their patronizing, condescending sibling always meddling and interfering.

Jez

maybe if the UK pulled out of the EU, that might be an argument

Mitch

@MattЭллен I knew it. The Scots are secretly French.

Or French lovers.

terdon

@Jez Well, it does kinda. The UK is not in Shengen or the Euro for example.

Will Hunting

This political talk is still going on? LOL

Jez

16:06

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well they sure wont get that with the EU! hah!!!!

Matt Эллен

@Jez being fully integrated, like the UK isn't, though

Mitch

It's obviously the cheese missing from their diet

Jez

@terdon no, and we still get a shitton more immigrants than we can handle

terdon

@Jez Join the club.

Jez

as for the Euro, good. we dont want the Euro, it's a disaster

most Scots dont either

Mitch

16:07

@WillHunting IKR!! I keep trying to move it over to food. But it is not working.

Matt Эллен

true, they want to keep the pound AFAIK, regardless if they remain part of the UK

Jez

hilarious

Cerberus

@Jez How about Cameron's police state?

terdon

@Jez Perhaps that's the kind of decision they'd like to make for themselves.

Jez

@Cerberus would Salmond's be any better?

Cerberus

16:08

@Mitch What do you think!

Mitch

@Jez France is getting all the tourists that really want to go to England. How does that make you feel France?

Cerberus

@Jez Maybe it would be less policey...

Jez

@terdon they can, as part of the UK. "them"selves is pretty subjective, as you define "them" as people living north of an arbitrary line

@Cerberus i dont think so. Salmond is pretty fascist really. he wants to control political speech in Scotland

terdon

@Jez No, I define them as people sharing a particular history and culture.

The line is arbitrary, the history ain't.

Jez

@terdon which is tightly integrated with the UK. it's like ripping off an arm.

Cerberus

16:10

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Just like feudal Europe, modern Europe (and also modem America/China) is layers upon layers of jurisdictions and autonomies. All this is about is a reshuffle of some autonomies between levels.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think you should watch Casino Royale. The first 10 minutes is excellent parkours. Everyone could learn from that. How to do parkours. Not really international relations. Actually at the end of the scene someone gets shot in the courtyard of an embassy. I think that teaches something about international relations. I'm not sure what.

Cerberus

@Jez Really? How?

@Mitch Umm. I watched some Bond films as a child.

Jez

@Cerberus there are countless examples of his true colours in my opinion. when Farage was virtually lynched at a pub, Salmond said UKIP were "not the kind of politics we want in Scotland"

yeah, so he should get to determine Scotland's politics

Cerberus

Lynched how?

Jez

look it up

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:11

@Cerberus Well, most of modern China has been part of historic China for centuries.

Cerberus

Aren't UKIPpen kind of crazy?

Mitch

@Cerberus You're missing a lot. Like the brand of Scotch the bad guys drink now. Those are things you just can't pick up from a book. You really need to see the movie.

Jez

@Cerberus one or two of their policies are, but most make sense

terdon

@Jez You're the one who made the claim, you should support it. Anyway, how is that "controlling political speech"?

@Mitch What brand is it?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Still, it consists of tens of layers of jurisdictions and autonomies that are sometimes reshuffled.

Jez

16:12

@terdon because he regularly expresses the desire to silence people he doesnt like. they're always complaining that they dont get enough media representation (so they can shout others down)

Cerberus

@Mitch What would I do without knowing what brand of Scotch the bad guys drink now!

Jez

when in fact they get more media than they deserve given scotland's size

Cerberus

@Jez I think I saw a speech by one of them in the European Parliament recently. Totally crazy.

terdon

@Jez Everyone makes that complaint. It's a far cry from that to "attempting to control political speech".

Cerberus

@terdon Should have watched the film!

Jez

16:13

lmgtfy.com/?q=Farage+lynched+Scottish+pub

terdon

@Cerberus I will, I actually enjoy them.

Jez

@Cerberus crazy how?

terdon

@Jez Wow, really? I can use google that way? Cool!

Jez

@terdon im pretty sure they would try to silence political enemies.

terdon

How is that an example of someone attempting to control political speech? It's an example of an extremist politician lynched.

@Jez Ah, now you're "pretty sure"? A second ago it was a blanket statement.

Will Hunting

16:15

Big @Mahnax is back!

Mahnax

Olen takaisin, terve.

Jez

then of course, there's the treatment he gives other leaders who would like to see the UK stick together

Mahnax

@WillHunting Medium-sized, please.

Cerberus

@terdon Meh.

terdon

@Jez I'm sure he's an asshole. Most politicians are.

Jez

16:15

they condemned Obama for making a statement, and then Salmond laid into Tony Abbot of Australia for doing likewise

Cerberus

@Jez He was ranting, raging, telling everyone they were liars and Nazis, something like that. Or thieves.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

terdon

@Cerberus The new ones were fun. They finally got someone who can act again and they're much darker. As a film about someone with a license to kill should be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That was the flag of Georgia from 1956–2001.

Jez

@Cerberus Salmond's got him beat. he compared Scots' treatment to South African apartheid a few days ago

Cerberus

16:16

@terdon I'm sorry, action films are usually not my genre.

terdon

Idiot.

The idiot was for Salmond.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hah, I always think of the country first.

Mitch

@terdon Glen llewellyn or some other celtic abomination. That's why they're even more veil now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

in 2001 they caved to the pressure of having such an obviously secessionist flag so they changed it, then in 2003 changed it again to this

Cerberus

@Jez Haha right, so equally crazy?

Jez

16:17

@Cerberus dunno, i havent seen the UKIP guy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That is the current flag, and it is based on the original Confederate flag (the "Stars and Bars")

tchrist

Do what is the new de-United Kingdom’s flag going to look like again?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Georgia wants to join the EU? Russian would never allow it.

terdon

@tchrist Presumably the same, minus one X.

Mitch

@Cerberus You'd probably huddle in your understocked fall out shelter waiting for the fallout to snuff out all life. But now that you know, you can put it to practical use. Start drinking it too Dulls the pain.

Cerberus

16:18

@Jez He said all taxes were theft.

Jez

@tchrist dunno, but Scotland's needs to have Tony Blair's portrait in the corner.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Jez

"our hero, the man who gave us a parliament and a referendum on a silver platter!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Confederate flag ^

Cerberus

@Mitch Sounds good. But what brand?

Mitch

16:19

@Cerberus What? Thinking is overrated.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK. I concede then. That's pretty in your face. But at least they're slowly getting rid of them.

Jez

@Mitch oh, so you don't support their right to self-determination?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch That one is the replacement! It's just that a lot of people probably don't care about the Stars and Bars as much as Lee's battle flag, which is more iconic.

Mitch

3 mins ago, by Mitch

@terdon Glen llewellyn or some other celtic abomination. That's why they're even more veil now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez You can agree to someone's right to self-determination while also calling them out for being racist, glorifying their racist past, or whatever statement they are making with that flag.

Cerberus

@Mitch A film bores me if it does not make me think.

Mitch

16:21

@Jez A flag is not self determination. It's marketing.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 maybe they're just making a statement that Lincoln forced them to stay part of the US

Cerberus

Even thinking about silly things is enough.

Jez

maybe it's not to do with racism

Mitch

@Cerberus So basically you don't like films.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez He did.

oerkelens

16:22

And thanks a lot guys... thanks to the remark that most of UKIP's policies made sense, I looked at their site. Saw they claim that the UK is the EU's biggest export partner which made me look up the numbers. Unsurprisingly, it is nonsense. And now I still don't know what makes sense about UKIP :P

Mitch

I think about how dumb that guy is he should have hooked left, feinted then punched right, instead of the other way round. I think about that all the time.

Jez

@oerkelens have a look at the SNP's site, see whether their claims stack up

@Mitch erm, yeah, marketing the fact that they want self-determination

like the Scots who wave the Scottish flag

oerkelens

I'm not saying they're any better

But that doesn't mean UKIP makes sense :P

My main question is how countries like Spain would react to Scottish independence

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't often watch films, but there are enough that I like.

Will Hunting

@oerkelens independence

oerkelens

16:24

?

:P

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I think the US would be better off if all the confederate states seceded. But the slaves in those states would not be.

Will Hunting

?

Cerberus

@oerkelens The EU doesn't have an export partner that is a part of it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They could be freed first.

oerkelens

Apart from that. I looked up some numbers. January 2014 UK imported for some GBP 17 million from the EU

Jez

@oerkelens i think UKIP's main point is that the UK would not really suffer economically from leaving the EU.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:26

@Cerberus Why would those states secede if they had to free their slaves? The right to slavery was like the main point of seceding in the first place.

Jez

@oerkelens which is more than you can say for Scotland leaving the union

oerkelens

EU exports some USD 280,000 million to the US per year

I doubt we would feel the pain if the Brits don;t want our stuff anymore :P

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You rush in, free the slaves, then leave forever.

@oerkelens From the rest of the EU.

oerkelens

@Jez Based on the assumption Europe wants (needs!) a free trade agreement with them

@Cerberus The numbers ar efrom the UK

they say from the EU

Cerberus

@Jez But it would.

Jez

16:28

@Cerberus and Scotland will be just dandy leaving the union?

oerkelens

You know them: across the channel is Europe :)

Cerberus

@oerkelens Silly.

oerkelens

Not really. They import form EU, from US, from the rest of the world

Cerberus

@Jez No, it would cost them a lot of money, probably. Unless the new money they get from all the oil and gas reserves turns out to be enough to compensate.

oerkelens

They do not import from themselves, so from their point of view it;s fine

Cerberus

16:30

@oerkelens Europe, but not the EU!

Jez

@Cerberus hahaha SNP green credentials down the toilet there

oerkelens

The Netherlands have the same kind of statistics probably

Cerberus

Even the Brits cannot deny being in the EU.

oerkelens

Yes, the EU

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That wouldn't work. In fact, after winning the war, the North freed the Slaves, then the South went and passed a million laws to restrict black people's freedoms until they were no better than slaves. Repairing that damage is still an incomplete task.

oerkelens

16:30

even if you are a part of it, you can trade with it

terdon

Wow, a direct quote from the UKIP's site: "Remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. "

oerkelens

Amsterdam has tourists from the Netherlands

Same thing

Cerberus

@oerkelens I suppose. But it just sounds silly.

terdon

That kinda wraps it all up nicely.

Mitch

@Jez ha ha..ok touche.

Cerberus

16:30

@terdon Yup they are crazies.

terdon

@Cerberus And their immigration stuff...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hey, at leas they did what they could...

Jez

@terdon yeah, that's another one of their dumb policies unfortunately. it mostly stems from the fact that there was a terrorist guy we couldn't deport for a long time because of the ECHR

Mitch

@oerkelens They should be totally against it, because it will give Catalonia an idea that they never would have considered otherwise.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus They didn't do enough. They could have done more.

oerkelens

16:31

I spoke to a Brit recently who was convinced that all those Indians and Pakistani immigrants in the UK were the result of the EU

Cerberus

@terdon Perhaps some of the immigration stuff is less crazy.

Jez

@terdon no, their immigration stuff is totally reasonable. most countries want proper control over their borders, why on earth should the UK be different?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@oerkelens lol

terdon

@Jez Their entire policy is "We're better than the rest". Same as all other nationalists.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like what?

oerkelens

16:32

@Mitch That is the risk for Scotland. If Spain block their entry to the EU, they have a problem.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus They should have nationalized all the wealth of the south and then redistributed it to the people over 100 years.

terdon

@Jez Allowing only people who don't need help in is absurd. "Sure you can come here but only if you're rich enough not to need to".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Thereby eliminating the original sources of power that broke the laws.

Jez

@oerkelens heh heh. but do they though? i personally think their policy of "switch our laws from London to Brussels" is the dumbest of all... surely they want to make all laws in Edinburgh

Mitch

@oerkelens Build a wall!! Stop the flood!!

Jez

16:33

@terdon no, it's reasonable. sorry, but we dont have an obligation to help out all poor people in the world

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Right after the Civil War black people could vote and stuff. But then the old rich white men who maintained their money and stuff got the laws changed and black people couldn't vote any more or get elected.

oerkelens

@Jez They can make many laws in Edinburgh. But they will need either the UK or the EU for economical purposes. And the UK seems an unlikely ally :P

Jez

@oerkelens i dunno. there are pussies in London who will probably just forgive them and roll over to the SNP as usual

terdon

@Jez Inasmuch as possible we do, yes. It's called not being a selfish bastard. Yes immigration is a problem when it overwhelms the local infrastructure but allowing only rich people to immigrate is ridiculous.

Jez

@terdon not so much rich as qualified, i think

oerkelens

16:34

@Jez Well, there's another option. Scotland independent. Then invades England 8)7

Jez

@terdon most countries do it, they cherry-pick their immigrants. and no, we do not have an obligation to let everyone in

terdon

> Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.

So, rich.

Mitch

@oerkelens The EU was behind the entire dismantlement of the colonies. That's why the Seven years war was fought. Treaty of Paris was really the Treaty of Europe.

terdon

@Jez Of course they do. What's at issue is how big a part of their political platform that is and how they deal with it.

Jez

@terdon i struggle to have an issue with that. do you have any idea how much immigration has increased to mainly south-east England?

oerkelens

16:35

@Mitch And granting colonies independence is a bad thing, because...?

terdon

@Jez I know you do. Having seen the rest of your political ideas.

oerkelens

Well, obviously keeping them for economic profit brings more profit

Mitch

@oerkelens They should go the route of Norway. Actually they should unify with Norway. Become the 'Northern Empire'.

scribbles invasion plans in note book

terdon

I'm not saying all countries need to open their borders (though that would be nice) but only allowing people who can support themselves for 5 years and expecting them to not join your own schools is ridiculous.

oerkelens

@Mitch They'll surely look forward to having Vikings ruling them again :P

Jez

16:37

northern empire lol

GnomeSlice

holy fack wick-it is good

►

Jez

actually i think Salmond said he wanted Scotland to become like Denmark. I was unfairly dismissed by a Danish company so yeah that seems about his style

Mitch

Forza Scotia!

oerkelens

anyway, shopping time!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It would have cost a lot of money and lives to arrange that.

@Mitch Scotia is Ireland.

terdon

16:39

@Jez Every time I think you might be open to rational debate, you come out with a statement like that. Sigh

Mitch

@oerkelens Exactly. The raping, the pillaging... oh. ruled by the Vikings?

Cerberus

Scotia

Scotia was originally a Roman name for Ireland, inhabited by the people they called Scoti or Scotii. Use of the name shifted in the Middle Ages to designate the part of the island of Great Britain lying north of the Firth of Forth, the Kingdom of Alba. By the later Middle Ages it had become the fixed Latin term for what in English is called Scotland. == Etymology and derivations == The name of Scotland is derived from the Latin Scoti, the term applied to Gaels. The origin of the word Scoti (or Scotti) is uncertain. It is found in Latin texts from the 4th century describing a tribe which sailed...

Mitch

@Cerberus So what is Scotland then? Hebridea?

Ionica?

Deepfriedia?

Cerberus

Pictae?

What is Ionica?

Mitch

Bromelidae?

terdon

16:39

@Cerberus Those are the people though, not the place. Right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it cost money and lives to not do it, too. The US is still paying for it.

Cerberus

The Romans often used the name of the people who lived somewhere to designate the area.

Matt Эллен

@terdon the scots invaded pictland from Ireland

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wouldn't secession have been cheaper for everyone?

@MattЭллен Did they really?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yes. that's where the Scots came from :D

Cerberus

16:41

I thought the Celts just invaded all of Britain and Ireland long before Roman times.

terdon

@Cerberus Yup, they were searching for their pots of gold.

Mitch

@oerkelens Dismantling is such an ugly word. How about agreeing to disagree?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, except then how long would it have taken for slavery to die off? How much worse would it be for black people in the Confederate States?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but that's the whole of Britain. there were tribes among the Celts

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know, perhaps they were better off as slaves?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:42

@Cerberus lol. No.

terdon

Huh?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How is the US still paying for it? They invented Coke in the South, the rest of the world is paying for that.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Right, okay. I wasn't sure how serous you were. Good to know.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Slaves can be better off than servants...

terdon

Nobody actually believes the war was fought over slavery do they?

Matt Эллен

let me find a picture...

Cerberus

16:43

It was one factor?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Um, it clearly was. The states even said so.

terdon

Oh, they said so! OK then :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world,”

That's why Mississippi went to war.

Mitch

@terdon The southern governments were totally fighting to have slaves. The actual soldiers on both sides, not at all.

terdon

I know it was a factor but my (limited) understanding is that it was more about the economies and that the southern one was based on slavery.

@Mitch OK, I meant that it was not a war "to free the poor suffering slaves".

It was a war that did so, but I am far too cynical to believe that was the root cause.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:44

@terdon The North may not have gone to war specifically to free the slaves, but the south went to war to protect Slavery.

Mitch

The northern government went to war because, the direct cause, the secession (lost territory, and they attacked a Northern fort (Fort Sumter).

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 To protect their assets, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon they asset, being Slavery

It was economically disastrous when they lost that.

terdon

And their right to own such, yeah.

Cerberus

@terdon Probably.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or it was one thing among several related to the fight against centralisation.

Mitch

16:46

@terdon It was totally the root cause for the southern states governments (and rich people.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And so they then went about changing the laws so that blacks couldn't be slaves, but they also couldn't be free

Cerberus

Which has taken place in many places.

terdon

@Mitch Fair enough. It's the idea that the North went to war in order to free the slaves that I don't buy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It was the biggest thing. The first armed raids (by the South) were incursions into the North to recapture slaves.

The South was upset that the North allowed blacks to vote and stuff. They were upset that NY didn't even allow slaves to visit: if a person came to NY, they must be free, because slavery is illegal; this meant that white people couldn't bring their slaves with them when they travelled.

Matt Эллен

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:48

Basically, the South wanted to impose their will on the North.

Matt Эллен

apparently the Scots invaded North Wales...

they must have gone north

Mitch

@terdon yeah, that's sort of a reasonable deduction, but is just not the case. Yes, they were abolitionists up north, but that's not the reason the northern government decided to 'return fire' against the South.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And the North upon the South.

@MattЭллен Wow!!

Did you draw that?

How old were you?

Matt Эллен

yes :D 9 or 10

Mitch

@MattЭллен Yes, very cute!

Cerberus

16:50

So cute!

Matt Эллен

@Mitch just 23 years ago or so, yes

Cerberus

When did the Scots invade Britain? Surely earlier than the Jutes...

Mitch

Totally needs a picture of you with a bad haircut.

Cerberus

The Jutes came around the fifth century?

user116848

@MattЭллен So you are good at drawing too :D

Mitch

16:51

I think you copied that out of an encyclopedia.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus my... uh... "notes" don't cover that level of detail :D

@Mitch probably

noöne had taught me about referencing back then

Cerberus

haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, sorta. Not as directly as claimed.

user116848

So who won the Scots/Britain and politics debate above?

Matt Эллен

@Arrowfar there is no winning that debate :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:53

>
On Aug. 22, 1862, President Lincoln wrote a letter to the New York Tribune that included the following passage: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you seem to be favouring the North!

user116848

@MattЭллен True

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So he cared less about slaves than about centralisation, as always.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, he cared less about abolition as a cause of war. But abolition was going to happen anyway, gradually, and the South went to war to prevent it.

Cerberus

16:55

Were the religious wars of Europe really mainly about religion?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Of course I favour the North. I am torn about whether freeing the slaves through bloodshed was ultimately worth the cost. I can't answer that. I suspect yes. But had the south no slaves, then going to war to prevent secession would be bad, in my opinion.

Cerberus

Is the Ukrainian war mainly about protecting Russian citizens?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sometimes, yes. But religion is just a convenient tribalism.

Cerberus

It's just that I would be a bit more cynical about any war and the reasons behind it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So... it's pointless to care about what kind of tribalism is the cause of the war? "Was it religion, or just tribalism?" Yes. It was.

But slavery was for sure 100% one of the main causes of the US civil war. The Southern states felt their rights to slavery were being encroached, and saw that that could be economically disastrous, so they tried to secede. Also they raided across borders to capture slaves.

How is that not going to war for slavery?

The north went to war in response to the south.

anyway I have to run.

bye

Mitch

17:00

@Arrowfar We all won. Because we learned something. Which is that there is no convincing anyone.

terdon

@Mitch Dammit, you reasonable types take all the fun out of arguing.

user116848

@terdon lol :D

Mitch

@terdon OK. We all lost. Pyrrhic victories on all sides.

terdon

Yay!

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The didn't go to war because of slavery or to stop it. They went to war to stop secession. The secession was for slavery. 'because' is not transitive in a two player game.

the motivation of one is not the negative of the motivation for the other.

Cerberus

17:05

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is that how you interpreted me?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Overt acts and rhetoric need not reflect the main causes, if those are less palatable. But it may be a main reason, sure.

Mitch

In case you all care, I took care of my personal food problem. But I am still willing to turn this into a discussion of whose food is better, the North or the South (Obviously the South). Hm.. thinking about it, I could eat more.

Full disclosure that's all. I thought you'd be interested in my thought processes.

Will Hunting

It is boring in this chat, lol.

Mitch

You're kidding, right?

Aren't you following?

Will Hunting

I rather talk about Maria than politics.

Mitch

We've solved devolution.

Will Hunting

17:12

Wait, I have a question.

Mitch

We've solved the war of Northern aggression.

Next... cold fusion.

Will Hunting

Is it correct to say "I rather talk..." or "I would rather talk..."?

Mitch

Or lunch.

Ice Boy

would

Mitch

@WillHunting If I had my druthers it would be 'I'd rather talk".

Your first one is a foreignism.

Will Hunting

17:13

I have this habit of omitting the would.

Mitch

You should get in a habit of including it.

Well, ... it depends.

terdon

I rather think so.

But that's a different meaning of the word.

Mitch

If you mean "I'd rather talk" then you should definitely say that.

Ice Boy

I rather not talk.

Mitch

But "I rather talk" might be OK in a slightly different meaning.

terdon

17:15

@Mitch That would mean you talk a lot.

Mitch

Yes. or would like to.

terdon

@Mitch Would like to? How? I rather talk would be a (rather strange) way of saying I talk a lot.

You need the would for the would like to sense.

Ice Boy

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Mitch

@terdon OK. then JL should say #2

Ice Boy

books.google.com/ngrams/…

"I'd rather talk" wins

Cerberus

17:38

@Mitch What was your food problem?

> According to writings from the 9th and 10th centuries, the Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata was founded in the 6th century in western Scotland.[47][48] The 'traditional' view is that settlers from Ireland founded the kingdom, bringing Gaelic language and culture with them. However, recently some archaeologists have argued against this view, saying there is no archaeological or placename evidence for a migration or a takeover by a small group of elites.

KitFox

17:49

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: Using all commas, Oxford, and, Cambridge. (no tags)

user116848

@KitFox Hello! You don't visit this chat very often these days.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Hey!

Damkerng T.

Oh, hello!

Ice Boy

@DamkerngT. @Arrowfar Hi guys :D

Damkerng T.

@IceBoy Hi!

user116848

17:51

@IceBoy hi :)

user116848

@DamkerngT. I feel like I am in the ELL chat right now :-)

Ice Boy

All we need is @snailboat and we can take over this room

Damkerng T.

LOL

user116848

ha ha

Damkerng T.

Stack Exchange iOS app sounds interesting.

user116848

17:53

you use it?

Damkerng T.

I'm considering using it. :)

user116848

@DamkerngT. So Damk you don't talk much here. Hehe

Damkerng T.

Not very often, lately.

Wait until the Hats season. :)

Ice Boy

@DamkerngT. I think ELL should change its name to ELU and ELU should become EnglishOverflow just like MathOverflow is for professional mathematicians, what do you think?

user116848

@DamkerngT. Hats season? :)

Damkerng T.

17:58

@IceBoy Somehow that sounds very logical!

Ice Boy

Thanks :)

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar I don't have any link back to the last Hats season, but I think they will have it again late this year.

user116848

@DamkerngT. I see. So it's like some SE thing?

Damkerng T.

nods -- And we can do anything just for the hats!

Ice Boy

@DamkerngT. should I ask on meta?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…