English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jez

11:00

all these pathetic little regions of Britain wanted in hundreds of years ago. that was before the empire. what changed?

tchrist

King Arthur.

RegDwigнt

-1

A: Which is correct: 'as beautiful as her' or 'as beautiful as she'?

Here is some proper grammar for you pussies. How do you think its going to feel when you hear the click..? Before you get a chance to say a peep it will be curtains. Cant stop it. It's gonna happen. you should have stopped her..

Wut.

Matt Эллен

??

is that a threat?

RegDwigнt

If it is, he sucks at threats.

tchrist

Does Cumbria go to the Welsh, the Scots, or the Manx?

Matt Эллен

11:02

indeed

RegDwigнt

Someone will do something! Somewhere! or not! You pussies.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist The English, I assume.

RegDwigнt

More to the point, how quickly will they change the Australian flag?

Matt Эллен

nevar!

RegDwigнt

Oh so Australia stays Scottish, eh.

tchrist

11:03

@MattЭллен Seems a bit stodgy, that idea. The hip thing is musical chairs with all the counties, and when the music stops whoever doesn’t have a Seat gets to have their own queen.

Matt Эллен

interesting take on the game :D

tchrist

They did that to us once. We were not amused.

Had a skunky referendum in 7 counties to have a tax to pay for a dumb stadium. Boulder County voted against it. But that same election there was also a referendum for a corner chunk of our county with two others to secede and make their own county. They voted for us to pay and they also voted for themselves to secede. Which both passed. I was highly unamused.

Since they were no longer part of the 7 counties who had to pay, despite being in the middle of us all, they didn’t have to pay. So they voted to have other people pay their bills.

I want to be able to do that.

RegDwigнt

Business as usual.

tchrist

2

A: What emphasis to use when referring to words?

My usage, as I put it in a post some time ago, In this medium, where writing and typography has to express speech and sounds, I use italics and boldface like this: I use plain italics only for citing examples and titles. Never for emphasis. I use boldface for emphasis. These are ...

RegDwigнt

The wall between Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine can't pay for it, so now it's German taxpayers who do.

tchrist

11:11

He understates his own position.

RegDwigнt

They are used to paying for walls, after all.

tchrist

Ask China for a wall loan.

RegDwigнt

I will ask Pixar for wall e.

Jez

the shittiest thing is that much of the UK can't really feel like it has a national identity

tchrist

Money is not wholly of e composed.

Jez

11:12

it's really simple for 98% of the world's population, they just know what antionality they are

but we dont know what goddamn flag to fly, what goddamn anthem to play, what goddamn team to support

all because separatists can't be happy to be part of one country

Alraxite

So does anyone think double bluffing is not the correct answer to the "act of baiting someone into (incorrectly) calling bullshit" question?

RegDwigнt

@Jez you should start printing "one nation under God" on your money. That always helps.

Jez

heh, yeah, that god thing sucks

tchrist

Their deeply felt sense of Antiochenity derives from the place where Old Enoch still to this a abides.

Britain has no stars to wave.

And its stripes run at cross purposes.

This is the whole of the problème.

Let each bear their own cross.

RegDwigнt

They should have used an all-yellow flag or something. With a red hammer and sickle in a corner. Yeah. That'd totally give them one identity. For a full seven decades at least.

tchrist

11:17

@Alraxite I think Urban Dictionary calls that bluffaloing.

RegDwigнt

Bluffaloing if you feel like a room without a roofah.

Alraxite

The word they are looking for is to describe when you lie that you're in a bad position while you actually aren't.

That word, if there is such a specific version, comes under simple lying.

Not double bluffing.

It's wrong.

tchrist

Being a fair damsel tied up to a long-abandoned railroad track and calling urgently for help.

Matt Эллен

it is bluffing. plain and simple. you are trying to trick someone into thinking you're in one position when you're in another to get them to play the way you want

Alraxite

You are double bluffing when you say you have good cards when you do actually have good cards and hope that the opponent thinks you're lying.

@MattЭллен Exactly.

tchrist

11:21

Deceit is deceit.

RegDwigнt

Secede is secede.

Matt Эллен

receipt is received

tchrist

There are only two artful ways to lie: one is to tell a half-truth, and takes no skill. The other is to tell the entire truth in such a way that people believe you are lying.

And therefore the only skillful way to lie is to tell the complete truth.

Your goal is achieved if no one believes that truth.

RegDwigнt

Play on extra hard by lying to yourself.

tchrist

And you have spoken no mistruth with which to hang you by.

Alraxite

11:23

You could also tell them the half-truth and make them believe that you're telling the truth to make them believe you are lying.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Most people do that to one extent or another. They make up their own version of reality and then insist on believing it. Others do so merely to stay alive.

Alraxite

That requires even more skill.

Matt Эллен

so if I say I'm the devil, and noöne believes me, and I don't believe me, and I am actually the devil, do I get into heaven?

RegDwigнt

Don't you know it's true girl there's no one else but you, would I lie to you baby yea?

I mean. There's clearly only ~~two~~ one people in the world. You can look it up on wiki and shit.

Jez

theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/09/…

Ironic how the cynical SNP allowing 16+ yr olds to vote might result in a slightly higher no vote

tchrist

11:25

@MattЭллен A mind not to be changed by place or time. / The mind is its own place, and in itself / Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

Jez

i bet if their strategists had known that in advance they'd never have supported it

you also gottal love all the quotes from yes supporters, "they have some good points" - yeah but you're IGNORING the million downsides, you morons

tchrist

What though the field be lost?
All is not Lost; the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And the courage never to submit or yeild.

Matt Эллен

No more heroes

Jez

techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/…

> this may be what windows 9 looks like

oooh, ugly!

Matt Эллен

nothing new there, then

my mistake. they made it worse

Alraxite

11:33

Better than the Metro Screen.

Jez

better than dog turd

Matt Эллен

@Alraxite true

not better than win 7

I will probably upgrade if Steam requires it, though

Alraxite

Because I've windows 8, I've basically learned to live without the start menu.

RegDwigнt

Wow it's even uglier than Windows 8.

Microsoft make the impossible possible.

Matt Эллен

lol

Alraxite

11:36

They should do away with those "apps" or whatever they are.

I never use them and they are slow as hell when you start them.

RegDwigнt

I read the other week that nobody gets new apps no more.

Basically everyone got what they needed and now it's saturated and the fad's over.

Alraxite

And the apps don't even have most of the options you need.

It's like using a mobile on a laptop.

Jez

Metro apps. it's part of Microsoft's "one OS to rule them all" on all devices strategy

it's flawed from the start. different form factors should have different looks and feels, to an extent

the complexity of what one can do on a powerful general-purpose PC with decent peripherals vs. what one might do on a smartphone? night and day

if MS wanna give up on the PC market and focus on tablet and phone, haha i'd love to see that

Linux on the desktop finally

Alraxite

BTW, I think that screenshot has been around for some time

RegDwigнt

Yeah for starters, I can use the PC to make calls. When will smartphones support that?

Alraxite

11:40

People were (still are?) guessing that that start menu might roll out as one of Win 8.1 major updates.

Jez

look at how they have officially-printed Yes cards

but have to write no

funny, that. almost like the scottish government were officially sanctioning one outcome

"let the people decide" yeah right

Andrew Leach

That's always the way. The government will always have a preferred position.

Same in 1975. Or 1973. Or whenever.

Jez

yeah, and then they paint the discourse as somehow balanced and open

god, the SNP are such an obnoxious bunch of liars. how anyone can trust them is beyond me

i mean, even by politician standards, they're bad

I just think of East and West Germany

Matt Эллен

one girl abstains, but they let'll let the cupboards vote if they vote yes

Jez

they celebrated, everyone celebrated when they were reunified

why? Why didn't people decry West Germany's loss of its precious independence?

Matt Эллен

11:54

that is so unrelated

Jez

not really

Matt Эллен

entirely

Jez

it's about how people think about their nationality

why isn't germany, today, wanting to split up? Berlin is pretty far east, isn't it "too far away" from western germany?

Matt Эллен

your argument is that one set of people who feel one way about something feel differently to a completely different set of people, about a different thing

Jez

not a different thing. the same thing, pretty much.

Matt Эллен

11:57

a different thing

Jez

i don't see how the 2 situations are substantially different

Matt Эллен

Scotland might want to leave. Germany was reunited

Jez

well that's my point

Germany thought it was better off as one country as it spoke the same language and was culturally and economically linked

why the heck doesn't Britain act that way?

Matt Эллен

that they're different situation with different people involved?

Andrew Leach

The Germans have always wanted reunification, and were distraught that their country was partitioned. There was even a public sculpture when I was in Hamburg in 1977.

Jez

11:58

diffrent people, yes... but why is it a different situation?

Matt Эллен

good point. it is very difficult to reasonably compare two very different things

@Jez Scotland might want to leave. Germany was reunited.

those are different things

Jez

those are two different outcomes

the principle is the same, do you unite as one country with your linguistic, cultural, geographical, and religious kin?

Andrew Leach

That's exactly the point.

There are Scots who don't consider the English match on those items.

Jez

not to mention historically. Scotland has been part of Britain for longer than Germany has been a country

@AndrewLeach yeah well, they've been brainwashed by a toxic separatist movement that's only really been around for the past few decades

tragic really.

during WW2 britain was solidly one country

Andrew Leach

My enemy's enemy is my friend.

Matt Эллен

12:01

ah, yes! a different time in different circumstances, with different people alive

Jez

@AndrewLeach oh come on, it was more than that

@MattЭллен yeah but the same principles.

obviously it was different people

but this idea that things have somehow changed a lot, that the union has "run its course", seems to me a totally flawed analysis

totally biased

the union is as appropriate now as it ever was

i fear the economic fallout in a potential post-yes situation will bear that fact out

Matt Эллен

solidarity under attack is a very differnt thing. again, you can't compare the situations. We are not under attack. Regardless what the Tories want us to believe about terrorists

Jez

sigh. people and their stupidity.

Andrew Leach

The Scots have always resented the fact that the Union was necessary to bail them out of their own economic disaster. They're still independently-minded, and this is the chance to show it.

Of course, another Union might follow dissolution...

for exactly the same reason.

Jez

@AndrewLeach Wales you mean?

or the EU

Andrew Leach

12:04

No, a reunification to bail the Scots out of the economic disaster that dissolution creates.

Jez

oh i see. yeah quite.

don't want laws made from London, want them made from Brussels? what are they smoking up there

deludibis?

maybe im oversimplifying, but what i would have done during the peak of Britain's empire is consolidate Britain.

get Scottish, Welsh, and Irish schoolkids waving the union flag.

get them recognized as nothing more than regions, like Brittany, Galicia, Sardinia, etc. are now

that was the time and place to kill off separatism. slowly and peacefully.

now things are just FUBAR

stay together and a bunch of malcontents are unhappy with Westminster, separate and everyone's economies suffer

they could have a proud national identity alright: British

it's all emotion. irrational emotion over what nationality you "feel". why oh why cant humans be more rational?

Matt Эллен

you mean logical

all humans are rational: they behave in the way they think will most likely help them to survive

or at least their genes

Jez

Putin called Britain some small little island that no-one listens to

he was wrong then, but he's getting righter with its break-up

a bunch of petty little nations, divided

it's so depressing to be a part of it

i dont think many foreigners quite understand how it feels

i wish i could divorce myself from it emotionally but i can't

i guess we're hardwired to feel part of a tribe. my tribe is falling apart. sucky.

Robusto

12:29

> Cant cancle exam from summery page

Another grenade from the pineapple QA crowd.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:21

@Jez That could seriously backfire.

The parents of those kids could have resented the forced consolidation. They would have taught their children to wave the flag in public but spit on it afterwards.

Mitch

@Robusto That just warms my cancles

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Maybe you should see a doctor about that.

Robusto

@Mitch So they feel all summery?

Mitch

13:40

@Robusto My summers are worse than your wintres

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sees doctor

Cerberus

*summres

Spelling!

Mitch

My cancologist says...

Cerberus

presses phone against Mr Shiny's icon

Mitch

"Eww"

Cerberus

Cancologist?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:42

@Cerberus It only works in the US

Mitch

@Cerberus A cancle doctor. Obviously.

Cerberus

presses phone against Mr Shiny's icon which is now in the US

Oh, an cancle doctor.

Naturally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It only works with iPhone

Cerberus

You are an Iphone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am not! flags cerb's message as offensive

Cerberus

13:43

All right, all right, ban me!

Mitch

@Cerberus A ncancle doctor. right next the cancles.

Cerberus

I'll write you a cheque, then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

See, when I flagged, a blue square appeared.

Cerberus

Haha.

But it isn't round!!

I wanted a round blue square.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well, explain how Brittany and Provence were assimilated into France then.

used to be independent.

Cerberus

13:44

@Mitch Umm you win.

Jez

evidently the French knew what they were doing

Mitch

If only the SE developers would add the ability to flag a flag, then the singularity would occur.

Cerberus

Now that would be seriously good.

terdon

@Jez The main difference is that there was no mother country that occupied/assimilated them. "France" was a new thing, being forged. "England" on the other hand was not.

Mitch

@Cerberus and perpendicular to itself. In seven ways.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:45

@Jez Different region, different times. Explain to me how making Quebecois wave the Canadian flag has helped quell their separatism.

Mitch

eight is just too much

Cerberus

@terdon Umm how do you mean?

"France" is pretty old.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah, but those times you refer to were the exact same times that Britain was being formed.

Cerberus

Just like "England".

Mitch

@Jez ?? when? 2 thousand years ago? I think they 'joined' like everyone else by getting other people to conquer them.

Jez

13:46

France is younger than England. Play Europa Universalis 3 and you'll see :-)

Cerberus

@Mitch Look what you did, my heads got all tangled up from trying to understand you.

Jez

@Mitch more like 500 years ago

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Their arms are too tired from all that flag waving?

Cerberus

@Jez I'm not sure I would say that!

terdon

@Jez Of course it is. That's exactly my point. England occupied the rest of the UK. France was built by joining fiefdoms together.

Jez

13:47

@Cerberus France as we know it today certainly is.

Cerberus

That is not a very meaningful qualification.

terdon

@Cerberus Of course it's old. My point is that it was not created by one nation state invading another.

Jez

@terdon i'm struggling to see the difference. someone has to oversee that joining together.

Mitch

@Jez ha ha. OK but still. longer than last week ago it all gets jumbled together.

Jez

@Cerberus of course it is. its expansion into what it is today is the kind of expansion that didn't happen with Scotland and Wales

Cerberus

13:48

@terdon What wasn't? Both France and England have forced new territories into their realms. "Nation state" is mostly a 19th-century notion.

terdon

@Jez There's a huge difference. If you're Scottish and have been occupied by your traditional enemies, you're in a very different situation than if you're Norman and have been coerced into forming a new nation state. It's the difference between being subsumed into an existing structure or becoming part of a new one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Yes but the circumstances of nation-building are not necessarily the same. The UK is not exactly the model of perfect historic unity without struggle.

Mitch

So 'france' 'oversaw' the 'joining' together?

I mean 'together'. also 'the'.

Wait wait wait everybody. You're using all these big words.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 evidently, but then, most of Europe struggled for hundreds of years. Germany used to have no unity whatsoever

Cerberus

@Jez How do you mean? France forced new territories under her crown just as England did.

Mitch

13:49

That came from the norman 'conquest'.

terdon

@Cerberus True about nation state. I meant the idea. You had the kingdom of England and that invaded and occupied Scotland. In France, you had one fiefdom occupying the rest but building a country not an Empire. There is next to no practical difference but a huge one psychologically.

Jez

it's a mystery to me why Germany is one country today

Robusto

@Cerberus America never did that. I mean, if you don't count native American tribal lands, Hawaiian kingdoms, former possessions of Spain, etc.

Jez

@Cerberus yes but in Europe, France didn't lose them again

Mitch

So was England assimilated by the French who were really Vikings?

terdon

13:50

Actually, the UK did pretty well. Just compare it to Spain.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Yeah and Germany kinda went through some angsty periods in the early 20th century before settling down and being re-invented by the Marshal Plan.

Jez

@terdon in what way

Robusto

@Mitch If by assimilated you mean conquered.

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 they went through those periods precisely because they were so united as a nation, behind the Fuhrer or whatever

surely

Cerberus

@terdon I'm not sure what you mean. Are you trying to say that e.g. Wales was more averse to London than e.g. French Flanders to Paris?

Mitch

13:51

@Robusto Guam. The stronghold of the Polynesian (oops Melanesian?) separatist movement.

terdon

@Jez In that I've met many Scots who consider themselves British. The UK was clever enough to allow certain cosmetic liberties (things like a different currency, judicial system and national teams). This allowed the Scots to feel both Scottish and British.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez So maybe the solution is for the UK to start trying to expand? Maybe it should get Ireland back.

Cerberus

@Jez France lost territories at times.

Will Hunting

The whole world should just submit to my rule.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yup everyone joined America voluntarily!

Jez

13:52

@terdon and how's that turned out? Spain as one country, Britain as... who knows? doesnt seem so clever to me.

Mitch

@Robusto If by 'if' you mean 'Because'

terdon

@Cerberus No! It's a matter of style. England already was a kingdom with defined borders. France was not. The entire region was in flux. In the Br case, you clearly had one nation state (anachronistic though the thought may be) invading another. That leaves a bitter taste.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, as a Canadian who lives in a really young country, no matter how you describe countries, I was surprised to be told that people in Salzburg don't really consider themselves "Austrian".

Jez

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you jest, but i think the British isles would be better off completely united yes

they would be about the same geographical size as France

terdon

@Jez Having lived in both countries believe me, the Brits have a far greater sense of unity than the Spaniards do.

Jez

13:53

@terdon given the current discourse in Scotland, i disagree

Mitch

@terdon Cosmetic liberties: Maybelline or Estee Lauder

terdon

@Jez That's nothing. Imagine having 4 different regions all trying to secede.

Jez

@terdon trying, not succeeding

Cerberus

@terdon I'm not entirely sure I see a difference here. Paris sends an army to occupy, say, part of the Provence. There is fighting, but Paris wins. Occasionally revolts take place.

Jez

Spain started off as like 4 regions, Galicia, Leon, Castille, and Aragon. THEY'VE done well to stay as one country

Mitch

13:54

@terdon 'Bretagne' is the italo-celtic derivation from the same word for 'bitter'

Jez

WE have screwed up bigtime

terdon

@Mitch snort

@Jez Ummm... Again, not really. When was the last time a Scottish separatist planted a bomb?

Jez

@terdon when was the last time that happened in Spain?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, there are all kind of people who will utter regionalist statements at times. Doesn't mean they are always extremely significant.

terdon

Also, the Spanish have exactly the same thing going right now, there's a (largely pointless) plebiscite coming for Catalan independence.

Mitch

13:55

So the English are pro union, but the Scots are not? Kinda obvious.

terdon

@Jez 'Bout three, four years ago I guess.

Well, not a Scottish separatist, obviously :)

Jez

@terdon but anyway, yeah the Scots and Welsh weren't rebellious. yet Blair gave the Scots a parliament anyway. what an idiot.

Cerberus

@Jez Spain is in much the same situation as England, what with Catalunya and the Basque territories...

Jez

@Cerberus we'll see. but i highly doubt Madrid will just let them go like Westminster has with Scotland

terdon

@Jez Huuuuuuuuuh? Idiot? There are many reasons to call him an idiot but how is that one of them?

Cerberus

13:56

@Jez So far, they have not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's one thing to be "regionalist". Like, I could make a strong case for Toronto seceding from Ontario. But to claim that Salzburg isn't part of Austria?! It has been for over 100 years! City-states are a thing of the past! Certainly in my hemisphere. It seems so quaint.

terdon

So what are you supposed to do when a part of your country does not want to be so any more? Send in the marines and kill them all?

Jez

@Cerberus they did when they gave them a parliament. with that came the option for separation. before that, the option was not there

Robusto

@terdon That was, more or less, the American response during our Civil War.

terdon

@Jez Oh please! The Scots have been clamoring for independence for hundreds of years!

Jez

13:57

they may have thought it was unlikely, but why even open the door at all?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I knew it. You Toronotoist! Damn you to hell! Troops have been dispatched!

terdon

@Robusto Exactly. I'd hope we've come a ways since then.

Jez

@terdon no they havent. as someone said, when was the last time a Scots separatist planted a bomb

terdon

@Jez I didn't say they'd been violent about it.

Jez

Scottish nationalism was nowhere until Blair gave them a goddamn parliament

Cerberus

13:58

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, saying Salzburg is no part of Austria is just silly regionalist rhetoric. It is not a very meaningful statement. Anyone from, say, Limburg could say it is no part of the Netherlands. Or someone from Twente, Zeeland, Friesland...

Robusto

Hey, let Scotland go. Find out how much they like being Northern Ireland with better whisky.

terdon

Point is that you don't have the right to force a people to be part of your political union. If they don't want to be, you back off.

Mitch

@Robusto Ooh...that stings.

Robusto

@terdon Like Putin does.

Jez

@terdon depends how you define "force". you can certainly try to massage the situation so that the union holds

Mitch

13:59

Especially if you drip it on an open wound.

terdon

@Cerberus Zeeland? Is that where stale kiwis come from?

Mitch

Look at Mongolia.

terdon

@Jez massage yes. However, if they want out, you don't have the right to force them as far as I'm concerned.

Jez

and I say that if you have a union that isnt breaking up, you dont introduce a parliament to increase that likelihood

Mitch

Not too close, it's a bit gamey.

Cerberus

13:59

@terdon It is the Dutch province from which New Zealand was supposed to be colonised.

Jez

the parliament has given the nationalists much greater publicity and support. that's really crappy.

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