English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

01:53

Being an asshole is bad enough, but being an incredibly stupid asshole who doesn’t know it from a hole in the ground is worse by far:

I think it's ridiculous to use agnomen in any relation to Dog the bounty hunter. For one, he is not Roman. It is also not given to him by others, on account of his victory - it is a self-styled title deliberately chosen to be as low-brow as possible to ostensibly intimidate criminals, but in reality to reinforce his authenticity to audiences and sell books and reality TV segments. "Agnomen" is so conspicuously pretentious in this context that you would immediately out yourself as someone who learned the word from their Word of the Day mailing list last morning. — Superbest 20 mins ago

So Janus has been accused of boning up on his vocabulary through Word of the Day mailings now. How . . . quaint.

What fools these morsels be: oh autostroker, thy name is חֻצְפָּה.

tchrist

02:11

Superbest

02:27

@tchrist Hello, since our disagreement concerns my etiquette and not the answer itself, I figured it would be more appropriate to discuss here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist source

Superbest

@tchrist To make it clear, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm not accusing Janus of anything, and I certainly have nothing against word of the day mailings. But I think using an uncommon, fancy sounding word to replace a common, mundane sounding one while ignoring the nuance in meaning is something that would be easily noticed, and a fair number of people would consider it pretentious (regardless of the intent).

@tchrist I also don't understand what you meant by "before the ravens gather".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:08

> the iPhone 6 the rumour mill has increased in kind, but nothing is for certain, as Apple rumours have often proven to be as accurate as the company’s Maps app.

Freddy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They are fake, because apple never give clue about what are they upto. We will able to get what they have done on release day only.

I hope ipone 6 have better map app.

gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_6-6378.php

GnomeSlice

03:34

Haha, what animal even is this

tchrist

03:48

Snipe.

Snipe

A snipe is any of about 25 wading bird species in three genera in the family Scolopacidae. They are characterized by a very long, slender bill and crypsis plumage. The Gallinago snipes have a nearly worldwide distribution, the Lymnocryptes jack snipe is restricted to Asia and Europe and the Coenocorypha snipes are found only in the Outlying Islands of New Zealand. The three species of painted snipe are not closely related to the typical snipes, and are placed in their own family, the Rostratulidae. == Behavior == Snipes search for invertebrates in the mud with a "sewing-machine" action of their...

GnomeSlice

@tchrist How did you

n11

07:32

@Mitch you're right, from now I'll try to build relations, but I start from nothing at 29, it's hard

Matt Эллен

07:46

@AndrewLeach I might be stirring things up a bit in the comments. we'll see.

Ice Boy

just be yourself

Freddy

08:50

If 2 is to town, 3 is to crowd than 4 and 5 is?

Ice Boy

?

9

Freddy

yup

Ice Boy

:D

~~than~~ then

Freddy

i can't edit it now!

Ice Boy

No big deal.

then goes with if

than goes with less

Andrew Leach

08:58

I understand that 3 might be related to "crowd". What does "If 2 is to town" mean?

Ice Boy

same first letter

this is not Lewis Carroll :-)

Freddy

09:18

Imagine you are in a room, no doors windows or anything,
how do you get out?

Ice Boy

the same way you got in

Freddy

nope

Ice Boy

if I can imagine I got in, then I can imagine I got out

Freddy

answer is stop imagining and get out.

Ice Boy

similar idea :-)

if I can not imagine how I got in, then I can not imagine how I can get out

Freddy

09:28

yes, you got main word IMAGINE, but you were thinking in different way.

Ice Boy

the result is the same

The formulation of a problem is often more essential than its solution.

Freddy

09:59

@IceBoy true

Freddy

10:29

►

Robusto

10:54

@IceBoy No attribution, Einstein?

"The formulation of a problem is often more essential than its solution," said Albert Einstein.

Johan Larsson

11:06

I've had two flat tires in the last two weeks. Average distance rom home 900 km.

Only had one before in my life.

This weekend we even cracked the oil pan. Managed to fix it where it happened.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson How do you fix a cracked oil pan in the wild?

Johan Larsson

We lifted the car inch by inch and placed stuff under it until we had 70 cm clearance under the engine.

Robusto

But that doesn't explain the fix, only how you got to where you could fix it.

Johan Larsson

Then we borrowed a car and bought chemical metal, sandpaper and metanol for cleaning.

Robusto

Ah.

Johan Larsson

11:15

We used a gas burner for heating stuff up so it would cure.

Robusto

Very resourceful.

Johan Larsson

If you would have asked me before I would have been pessimistic about being able to fix anything.

They were fixing a bridge and the sign said 30. The appropriate speed was ~5.

It was dark so my friend did not see until it was too late.

Robusto

This was out in the wilds, I presume.

Johan Larsson

Happened here

Robusto

Yeah, I'd say if that's not The Middle of Nowhere it'll do till The Middle of Nowhere gets here.

Johan Larsson

11:24

:)

It is a nice place, you should go there sometime

Robusto

I wouldn't want to hang from a rope until that happens.

Johan Larsson

We met a nice man who let us use his car for the weekend. Don't see that much in bigger cities.

So we did not even lose much hiking time.

When we asked how much € he wanted he looked offended.

Robusto

I'm sure it's wonderful. But it would involve me spending ten hours on a plane, and I don't do that easily.

Johan Larsson

yeah, you have nice places closer

Robusto

Also, Sweden isn't really an easy choice. I mean, you can think of 100 reasons to go to Paris, say, or London. But nothing stands out as a reason to visit Sweden, or even Scandinavia in general, even though I'm sure they are simply dripping with wonderful stuff.

Johan Larsson

11:31

I don't love big cities, been to London on a couple of weekends but it has been slightly painful.

Never been to Paris, skipped a wedding where I was meant to be best man once cos it was in Paris.

Nature is probably the reason to go to Scandinavia but you can find bigger in Alaska.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I can find bigger in Wyoming, no doubt.

Johan Larsson

yeah, looks pretty sparse

Robusto

Johan Larsson

Looks very square also.

Ice Boy

:O

Robusto

11:36

Johan Larsson

@Robusto Water looks like an issue if hiking there.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Water is an issue hiking anywhere.

Johan Larsson

Not in Sweden, small creeks everywhere. Impossible to find better water ime.

As long as it moves it is awesome.

Robusto

Plus you have Yellowstone in the northwest corner, Jackson Hole just below it, etc.

@JohanLarsson You can still get giardia or cryptosporidia from running streams.

Johan Larsson

I doubt the risk is significant if present at all. The water is usually ~5°C, straight from the glacier or equivalent.

Robusto

11:40

Well, then there's all that strontium-90 from the Russian nuclear tests.

Johan Larsson

I think it is also safe, after Chernobyl there were a couple of years when the recommendation was not to eat fish & berries etc.

GnomeSlice

Today's Listening | Retro Dance / Synth

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I've drunk from streams in Canada, etc., but I would only do it these days in an emergency.

Johan Larsson

11:56

A strange thing happened this weekend, puppy pointed a big moose. Puppy was 10m from it, he walked away when we were 25m from him.

Strange behaviour, maybe he felt so alpha he wanted to stay and fight.

Or he was sick, dunno.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson You don't mess with moose over here. Bull moose, close to rutting season? Give it a wide berth.

Johan Larsson

yeah bull & time to fuk.

Guess it was risk affinity++

Robusto

Bull moose are more dangerous than bears.

Though I would not want to come across either in the wild.

Will the real Jack the Ripper please stand up and show yourself?

Matt Эллен

12:15

the giant K confirms it!

Robusto

12:28

An artist always signs his work, ne?

Cerberus

12:46

Good morning!

I see we are talking about meese and artistes.

Matt Эллен

Hello.

Will Hunting

@MattЭллен My thoughts have been changing rapidly these few days. I feel I am becoming a different person.

Cerberus

Hello.

@WillHunting Better or worse than before?

Will Hunting

@Cerberus Just different. Perhaps better.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting sounds different

Cerberus

13:00

@WillHunting Hmm that is good.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree about the inefficacy of making the cracking of DRM illegal. As to what software is behind a carrier lock, how about the stuff on the SIM card? You can always come up with a few lines of code that are connected with an electronic lock. And, if not, you can plant the software there just to make cracking the lock illegal! It's such a dumb system.

Remember the case about the right of first sale in America? They were trying to outlaw reselling imported books, which were bought cheaper from a foreign subsidiary, then imported.
As a consequence, they had to outlaw the reselling of all goods with copyrighted material in them, something like that. The result would have been that you could easily block the reselling of any imported product by merely putting a logo or other picture on it that was copyrighted. Like timber with a tiny image inscribed in each plank, or you name it.

Oops!

Matt Эллен

:D

he'll never know!

Cerberus

Except for the pencil!

Matt Эллен

but he won't know what changed moderator wink

Cerberus

Did you know that penseel means "an (artistic) paint brush"?

Matt Эллен

I did not

Cerberus

13:10

Ohh you have deleted the history! Nice.

He shall be forever nonplussed.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Your Dutch is deteriorating!

Perhaps you need lessons.

is = is

lamp = lamp

Matt Эллен

or getting better! Since now I know two Dutch words

Cerberus

Three!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus and four!

Cerberus

13:11

Yay!

Let's see what other words you already know...

Matt Эллен

ananas = abacaxi

Cerberus

Haha.

Is that the native-American word?

plant = plant (the organism)

Matt Эллен

Portuguese

Cerberus

Ah...and is that from the native word?

Matt Эллен

oh... probably

Cerberus

13:13

in = in

plank = plank

So you can already speak Dutch: plant is in plank!

Matt Эллен

lamp is plank, ananas

Cerberus

Ding!

Ananas-plant.

Matt Эллен

ananas in plant-lamp

I feel like a native speaker already

model = model

Cerberus

Ding!

You look like a native speaker, too.

> O termo abacaxi (em português) é, com forte probabilidade, oriundo do tupi ibacati, ‘bodum ou fedor de fruto’, ‘fruto fedorento’ (ibá, ‘fruto’, cati, ‘recender ou cheirar fortemente’), documentado já no início do séc. XIX.

O termo ananás (em português e espanhol) é do guarani naná, e documentado em português na primeira metade do séc. XVI e em espanhol na segunda (1578), em que é empréstimo do português do Brasil ou da sua língua geral. O termo abacaxi também é um termo ameríndio.3

So abacaxi is from Tup: ananas is from Guarani. The two languages are related or geographically connected.

Matt Эллен

both around Brazil, I guess

Cerberus

13:20

Yeah.

Matt Эллен

The LED above my head was bright white this morning, but now it's green. I don't know what this means. It is normally green.

tchrist

@Cerberus Where did you dig that one up from out under of?

Cerberus

@tchrist Cepi de Vicipaedia.

@MattЭллен That explains your skin colour, then.

Matt Эллен

:D

tchrist

@MattЭллен You saw a cute tush.

Robusto

13:27

@MattЭллен Signs of radiation exposure, no doubt.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist not today I haven't :D

@Robusto possibly.

Robusto

Time to evacuate.

tchrist

@Cerberus I know virtually nothing about American languages, although the Spanish&Portuguese department at Madison did offer some Quechua classes.

And I have glanced over linguistics stuff regarding Navajo’s “fourth” person.

Cerberus

@tchrist You're absolutely right about the dreadnoughtosaurus, or what was it. I read about it too and shivered, it is so horrible. Childish is what I would call it, illiterate too. I didn't know about the Chinese names?
As to Latin, it is true that you cannot form such words as easily as in English or Dutch (and it is still fairly hard in those languages). In fact, I can't think of any phrases-turned-words in Latin; whenever you write two words as one, they still have to fit the syntax as if they had been written as two. Cf. *iusiurandum*, "oath". It is often written as one, but the geniti…

@tchrist There are an exotic linguist's paradise.

And an anthropologist's.

tchrist

Crucifer.

Lotsafers.

Cerberus

13:30

Lucifer.

A lucifer is a match in Dutch.

tchrist

Luciferase

Luciferase is a generic term for the class of oxidative enzymes used in bioluminescence and is distinct from a photoprotein. The name is derived from Lucifer, the root of which means 'light-bearer' (lucem ferre). One example is the firefly luciferase (EC 1.13.12.7) from the firefly Photinus pyralis. "Firefly luciferase" as a laboratory reagent often refers to P. pyralis luciferase although recombinant luciferases from several other species of fireflies are also commercially available. == Examples == A variety of organisms regulate their light production using different luciferases in a variety...

Oh, glow sticks don’t work quite the same way?

Cerberus

No.

tchrist

> The chemicals inside the plastic tube are a mixture of the dye and diphenyl oxalate. The chemical in the glass vial is hydrogen peroxide. By mixing the peroxide with the phenyl oxalate ester, a chemical reaction takes place, yielding two molecules of phenol and one molecule of peroxyacid ester (1,2-dioxetanedione). The peroxyacid decomposes spontaneously to carbon dioxide, releasing energy that excites the dye, which then relaxes by releasing a photon.

Why did I think they used something we learned from fireflies?

Cerberus

Perhaps the similarity is more abstract?

tchrist

> The wavelength of the photon—the color of the emitted light—depends on the structure of the dye. The reason the reaction is so slow and releases only light, not heat, is that the reverse 2+2 photocycloaddition of 1,2-dioxetanedione is a forbidden transition (it violates Woodward–Hoffmann rules) and cannot proceed through a regular thermal mechanism.

No, somebody once told me that they worked like fireflies.

Which as far as I can see, is true only insofar as chemiluminescence is involved with both.

All light, no heat.

Hah, the family taxon for fireflies is Lampyridae.

Cerberus

13:36

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Copyright has effect in the sense that it sometimes stops people from copying and such. But does it further the goals it was supposedly set to serve, the promotion of the arts and scientists? In the Internet age? Note also that it was invented by industries, not by society at large. They had different interests than the promotion of the arts and sciences.

@tchrist Hmm lampa is light, pyr is fire.

But lampyr?

tchrist

@Cerberus That’s why I said it sounded like Dog Latin. It was embarrassingly stupid. My biologist friend said you can’t pass a law is against stupidity, and that it was all convention.

@Cerberus I assumed the same stems.

Cerberus

> λαμπῠρ-ίς, ίδος, ἡ, glow-worm, = λάμπουρις 11, Arist.PA642b34.

Well, well.

tchrist

Aristotle had lightning bugs?

Wait, this is a Pond problem.

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly. I don't understand your last sentence, though.

Can't parse it.

tchrist

> About 2,000 species of firefly are found in temperate and tropical environments. Many are in marshes or in wet, wooded areas where their larvae have abundant sources of food. These larvae emit light and often are called "glowworms", in particular, in Eurasia. In the Americas, "glow worm" also refers to the related Phengodidae.

Cerberus

13:39

@tchrist We have glow worms.

But they are rare. I think we have talked about this.

tchrist

@Cerberus And so do we, but only cousins. Your fireflies seem to be glowworms too, but our glowworms are not our fireflies. It’s a same-word, different-thing thing.

Cerberus

Fireflies I know only from exotic tales.

tchrist

@Cerberus Fumbled.

Cerberus

I'm not sure we have fireflies at all?

tchrist

> There seem to be two groups of subfamilies: one containing many American and some Eurasian species in the Lampyrinae and Photurinae

Eurasia is a big place.

Cerberus

13:41

@tchrist Okay, so the informal zero-relative clause that refers to the subject of the clause, I thought it was that; but then I still wonder what "it" is that is all convention.

tchrist

@Cerberus s/law is against/law against/

> Luciolinae: This is the largest subfamily of fireflies, with member species scattered throughout Eurasia, Europe, East Asia, and Australia. The fireflies within this subfamily all produce light—and flash rather than emit a continuous glow.

Is it just me, or are there redundancies in that range?

> Cyphonocerinae: This subfamily of fireflies includes two genera that live in North America and Eurasia. They're notable because scientists believe they are the most primitive species of fireflies in existence. One genus within this group displays very weak light, while the other does not light up at all.

terdon

@Cerberus I would guess you do. I have seen them in Greece anyway so I can attest to their presence in Europe at least.

tchrist

firefly.org/types-of-fireflies.html

> Lampyris is a genus of firefly within this subfamily found primarily in Britain, and they thrive in old-growth grasslands in soil with high concentrations of limestone and chalk. Only the males fly; the females are larviform, and only they glow. Females crawl onto blades of grass and low vegetation at dusk and emit a yellow-green continuous light to attract mates. Their vernacular name is “glow worm.”

There, that’s the weirdness.

British glowworms do not metamorphize into fireflies!

So the girls don’t get wings, but they shine on.

> Firefly systematics, as with many insects, are in a constant state of flux, as new species continue to be discovered. The five subfamilies listed above are the most commonly accepted ones, though others, such as the Amydetinae and Psilocladinae, have been proposed. This was mainly done in an attempt to revise the Lampyrinae, which bit by bit had become something of a "wastebin taxon" to hold incertae sedis species and genera of fireflies.

terdon

What is even stranger is that the females show off to attract mates. I can't think of any other species (with the possible exception of humans) where that is the case.

tchrist

> Light production in fireflies is due to a type of chemical reaction called bioluminescence. This process occurs in specialized light-emitting organs, usually on a firefly's lower abdomen. The enzyme luciferase acts on the luciferin, in the presence of magnesium ions, ATP, and oxygen to produce light.

@terdon Oh no, men never show off.

terdon

13:49

@tchrist Of course they do. It's just that human females also do so, unlike most species.

tchrist

So for years, I thought glowsticks had a repeatable luciferase–luciferin reaction, like glowbugs.

Cerberus

@terdon So you have seen them emit light while flying? It appears that the Eurasian species mostly emit light while on the ground.

tchrist

> All fireflies glow as larvae. Bioluminescence serves a different function in lampyrid larvae than it does in adults. It appears to be a warning signal to predators, since many firefly larvae contain chemicals that are distasteful or toxic.

terdon

@Cerberus No, while sitting around on bushes. And on one memorable occasion, while sitting in my room.

Cerberus

@terdon I think humans are a pretty good example! But consider also angler fish.

terdon

13:50

@Cerberus Point.

tchrist

> Firefly luciferase is used in forensics, and the enzyme has medical uses — in particular, for detecting the presence of ATP or magnesium.

terdon

►

tchrist

More bioluminescence?

terdon

Angler fish.

Cerberus

@terdon Ahh okee, see? I wouldn't call those fireflies, if they don't fly. Glow-worms.

@terdon Yeah that was the video I was thinking of.

terdon

13:54

@Cerberus Ah, fair point. Though apart from the one in my room which I saw up close, I can't testify as to whether they can fly. They weren't when I saw them but perhaps they can.

All I saw was pretty lights.

And yes, I was stone cold sober. I was 8!

Cerberus

Aww.

I have never seen flying fireflies.

That I remember. So probably never.

JSBձոգչ

@tchrist I have need of thee. problems with perl and utf8::encode

Robusto

@Cerberus You have missed an important part of your childhood, in that case. Or at least an important part of mine.

Cerberus

14:11

@Robusto Well, my childhood did not involve intercontinental travel...

Cerberus

14:23

> 1943 Sun (Baltimore) 25 June 12/7, My father came from Invernesshire and certainly never restricted the use of Scotch to the whiskey. It is only in recent years that certain Anglo-American friends have made me feel guilty of committing a particularly bourgeois faux pas by using the word. We always looked on Scottish as rather affected, overly poetic.

terdon

@Cerberus Huh? Is that about the language? That's Scots not Scotch!

Cerberus

@terdon Both words can be used to mean "related to Scotland".

terdon

@Cerberus Ah, not the language then, OK.

Cerberus

For anything, I should think.

Robusto

You should be able to get off scot-free for any such usage.

Cerberus

14:43

Hmm so is that is about taxes; is it a metaphor? Related to Scotland?

Which may soon become independent after all, going by a certain poll, which estimated a majority of 51% for independence...

This is becoming more interesting than expected...

JSBձոգչ

so we're all rooting for Scottish independence here, right?

i don't want to see any unionists around these parts...

Cerberus

15:03

Haha.

@JSBձոգչ I don't know. It seems like a huge waste of money...

On the other hand, that will teach Cameron a lesson...

JSBձոգչ

i don't care about cameron. as a matter of principle, i think that anyone who wants their own country should get one

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ What? I thought Braveheart had settled the issue for all involved. Freeeedom!!!

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ What if it's just a rich neighbourhood in a city that wants to be an independent country?

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus sure. have fun.

Cerberus

If all rich neighbourhoods become independent, the country will fall into chaos.

JSBձոգչ

15:05

cf. venezian independence, since Venice is basically just a rich tourist park

@Cerberus meh. not my problem.

Cerberus

And the neighbourhood profits from all the amenities of the larger country.

@JSBձոգչ Why not?

JSBձոգչ

srsly, though, a rich neighborhood will probably want the roads and infra of the surrounding country

@Cerberus right, so i think that this is not a serious problem

Robusto

Let all the rich neighborhoods become independent. Then tax the residents exorbitantly to travel anywhere outside of their little enclaves.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ How do you mean?

@JSBձոգչ They can still profit from those roads while independent.

Just as Liechtenstein profits from Austria and Switzerland and the EU and everything.

JSBձոգչ

i don't think we're going to have an epidemic of expensive neighborhoods striking out for independence.

Cerberus

15:08

@Robusto Yes, that would be the only possibility to make it fair.

@JSBձոգչ I'm sure some would if they could.

JSBձոգչ

if the country as a whole is badly-governed enough that the better-off parts want to leave, then let that be a lesson to badly-governed countries

Cerberus

No, no. Think about it.

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ I am strongly in favour of the Union!

Andrew Leach

This discussion seems to be predicated on Scotland being a rich country.

JSBձոգչ

i am thinking. i've thought about this quite a lot.

Cerberus

15:08

It's easy to free-ride off a surrounding larger country.

JSBձոգչ

@AndrewLeach yeah, scotland actually isn't a rich country, so i'm not sur why Cerb is arguing that way.

Cerberus

Unless you tax travellers from the neighbourhood more heavily than other foreigners.

@JSBձոգչ I am not arguing about Scotland now (although some seem to think they could profit nicely from the oil and gas reserves).

@MattЭллен Do you think there is a chance that London will somehow block independence if the people vote for it?

Andrew Leach

@Cerberus No. If they are Scottish rather than UK (pro-rata), then Westminster will simply spend thirty years arguing over the treaty and they will have run out by the time it's signed.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Westminster? maybe. but I doubt it. then agiain, the tories are insufferable wankers.

Cerberus

Haha.

OK.

@AndrewLeach Oh, the oil reserves.

It is a possibility...

And I wonder whether enough oil and gas is coming out of those wells to make Scotland rich anyway as it is.

RegDwigнt

15:29

I see Rob is no longer retired.

I also see that I am no longer not commuting.

Ice Boy

icic

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt When did he retire?

Ice Boy

after the fight, it was sort of a semi-retiement

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ pong

JSBձոգչ

15:45

@tchrist so i'm stuck in utf hell with a recalcitrant library. partly my fault, of course.

i was slurping in my utf-8 file and passing the string to a library. mojibake came out the other side.

tchrist

Then maybe you forgot to set the encoding on the input stream?

JSBձոգչ

turned out that my first problem was that i didn't set encoding(UTF-8) on the filehandle, so the string wasn't marked as utf8. the internal library was using utf8::encode, which then mangled the string

@tchrist ninja

so now the string isn't mangled, but it fails the md5 check

tchrist

whoa

JSBձոգչ

my $md5 = md5_hex(encode_utf8($text));

tchrist

now why would it be doing that.

so yeah, you gave it latin1 codepoints.

encode_utf8 doesn't know that the codepoints it is given haven't been decoded yet. sigh.

there was a reason for that, but i forget it now.

You should only run it on stuff that's already decoded.

JSBձոգչ

15:48

i left off the comment:

    my $md5 = md5_hex(encode_utf8($text)); # Pass only bytes to md5_hex()

tchrist

Which would have happened if you had done binmode($some_fh, "utf8") before reading.

Amongst other ways.

But you did a "binary" read, so bytes was bytes.

JSBձոգչ

this is internal code from the library. i can change it, but i don't want to

tchrist

So you baked it, yeah.

Right, don't change the library.

But didn't the problem go away once you'd fixed the handle encoding?

Or is it not that easy to start over?

JSBձոգչ

my $text = read_file("pr/nouns.wiki", { binmode => ":utf8" });

this is the current way i'm getting the text

with File::Slurp

tchrist

hm

I don't use it, but one would think that that would work.

Might should be strict, though.

":encoding(UTF-8)"

But that isn't the issue.

JSBձոգչ

15:51

more context: the string and the md5 hash get passed to a web service. the manual interface through the web page accepts utf8, in that i can paste my utf8 document in the field and it works fine and displays correctly

tchrist

So after you read it that way, it should have looked right to you, right?

That should have decoded it, I imagine. Again, I don't use that module.

I presume the file honestly is in UTF-8, right?

JSBձոգչ

correct. the text that comes out of read_file looks correct, but after calc'ing the md5 and posting it to the api endpoint for the web service, the web service complains that the hash is incorrect

tchrist

Hm.

Does that mean that the result of md5_hex is not matching some previous checksum elsewhere stored, or that there is something wrong with the checksum itself?

JSBձոգչ

interesting

`MediaWiki::Bot::edit(/usr/local/share/perl/5.18.2/MediaWiki/Bot.pm:386):
386:        my $md5 = md5_hex(encode_utf8($text)); # Pass only bytes to md5_hex()
  DB<8> b
  DB<8> p $md5

  DB<9> n
MediaWiki::Bot::edit(/usr/local/share/perl/5.18.2/MediaWiki/Bot.pm:387):
387:        my $hash = {
388:            action         => 'edit',
389:            title          => $page,
390:            token          => $edittoken,
391:            text           => $text,
392:            md5            => $md5,             # Guard against data corruption

so $text, which should already be utf8, nonetheless chokes if i don't pass it through encode_utf8

tchrist

Oh, that much I very much believe.

JSBձոգչ

15:55

@tchrist the web service checks the md5 against the posted text to make sure nothing got garbled in transit

tchrist

So you have it in a state where you forgot to call encode_utf8 to encode it to bytes at one point, and it stored that, and now you are comparing that results with one that did call it.

Is that right?

JSBձոգչ

er, no. nothing is stored here, i'm rerunning from the top with every iteration

tchrist

k

good

was worried

ok then, so the library must be running its own checksum on the $hr->{text}, but it doesn't match the value currently in $hr->{md5} which you put there because the library is NOT decoding? Maybe?

Wait no, the MediaWiki::Bot is the library, not you.

JSBձոգչ

correct

and the check of the md5 hash is going on at the remote server, not in Perl

so the hash i'm sending doesn't match the hash which is computed remotely

i think i found it

tchrist

wuzzat?

JSBձոգչ

15:59

there's another call to encode_utf8 deeper down the stack when it prepares the whole document for going across the wire

tchrist

lovely

JSBձոգչ

i'm stepping through it now

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